Need help optimizing a Spellthief/Spellsword build

[KingBearKing]

Greetings all, first time posting in the playground but I find myself with no one to discuss my weird build ideas with. I don't currently have a group to play with so this character wouldn't see any play right away and as such I won't do stat rolls for him (I'm superstitious that way)

But anyway I've been kicking around this concept ever since I heard of the Spellthief class and fell in love with it. The core concept of the build would be combining stolen spells with the spellswords channel spell ability in order to set up fun combos.

I know about taking master spellthief, and I have this vision in my head of him becoming like an anime style magical swordsman so what I'm thinking for levels is:

Spellthief 5/ Spellsword 5/Swordsage 5/Abjurant Champion 5

This would leave him a bit niche but with a lot of gishy utility as both the party's secondary caster and trapfinder as well as stringing together potent sneak attack maneuvers charged with spells for massive sucker punches.

Is this a viable combination? I'm worried it might be too MAD. I'm also unsure if the Abjurant Champion levels are necessary or if it would be better to go Swordsage 10.

Oh there's also some grey area with taking Spellsword by level 6 instead of 8. It requires the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Now the spellthief doesn't KNOW any level2 spells until level 8 but he can STEAL them by level 4. I argue that if he manages to steal a level 2 spell then levels up within the hour he has it stored it should count for the prereq.

Anyway thanks in advance for any advice you might have.

[Anthrowhale]

You could use Trickster Spellthief to get bard-like access to spells, assisting with prereqs.

Jade Phoenix mage may better suit you build goals.

[KingBearKing]

Reading up on Jade Phoenix Mage, I do like the raw damage arcane wrath adds but it doesn't quite have the same impact as the spellswords channel spell ability. By stealing and channeling spells he'd effectively be skipping both component cost and cast time acting like a sort of lightning rod for magic and that's the utility I want to keep.

I am aware of trickster spellthief and while the extra spells are nice I don't find it worth it to lose out on all those rogue skills.

JPM definitely has merit though even a level 1dip adds some really useful stuff.

[Elves]

Dipping wizard and using +CL to advance wiz casting is the stronger choice but if you don't want to go that route then spellsword is interesting for novelty since past lvl1 it has few other use cases. Looking for +sneak attack is a good idea.

[Anthrowhale]

I was thinking about JPM in the context of Spellthief 5/Spellsword 4/Swordsage 1/JPM 10 so you keep channel spell.

[Silvercrys]

Small note, you need BAB +4 and proficiency with all martial weapons and heavy armor to get into Spellsword. Makes it hard to get into, heh.

But yeah I'd try something like Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Abjurant Champion 6/Jade Phoenix Mage +6 or something along those lines. You get +16 BAB, an 8th level maneuver at level 20, Wizard 17 casting, and the good Steal Spells stuff from Master Spellthief (Steal Spells 9 at level 20). You can only strike and cast 1/encounter but eh.

If you're a human or half-elf you can do something like Spellthief 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Abjurant Champion 6/JPM +1/Spellsword 1/Ruathar 3, which gives you Stealth as a class skill for all of your levels except 2nd, though you lose some JPM maneuvers that way and you don't get quickening strike. You can swap Warblade and JPM for Spellsword 5+Eldritch Knight if you don't care for the maneuvers here.

My favorite Master Spellthief is Spellthief 1/Martial Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 10/Unseen Seer 1/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer +3. Has Wizard 17 casting, very late maneuvers, and +6d6 sneak attack, but maybe a little too roguey for this character.

Closest to your original build, something like Spellthief 1/Duskblade 1/Martial Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 3/Spellsword 5/Unseen Seer +7 only gives you 8th level spells and steal spells (unless you read Master Spellthief very permissively) but gives you +5d6 sneak attack. Could even drop the 5th level of Spellsword and take a single level of Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance (if your DM allows you to) and some other goodies.

And finally, speaking of permissive readings. Aasimar Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 3/Spellsword 5/Unseen Seer +7 is a thing. You get 9th level spells, +5d6 sneak attack, Steal Spells (9th), and a Base Attack of +14. Buuut you need a permissive DM because you have to let Aasimar get Medium Armor proficiency from their Monster Manual stat block, then you can get Heavy Armor proficiency with a feat to qualify for Spellsword. So it's a bit cheesy and not a serious suggestion, just a note, though you can do almost the same by spending feats to get into Dragon Slayer (Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 4/Unseen Seer +6) though it delays Spellsword 4 by 2 levels. Also, Unseen Seer has a d4 hit dice so don't try to frontline, heh.

Edit: Whoops, took so long writing this one you'd posted again. Might have a couple more builds in that case but it'll be a while before I can come back.

[KingBearKing]

Spellsword doesn't grant spell channeling until L4 I believe so a one level dip wouldn't work.

The levels in wiz arent a bad idea and I could specialize abjurer if I still wanted to take AbjChamp.

Ok so what about this.

Spellthief1/Abjurer2/Spellsword4/Swordsage3/JPM1/AbjChamp5/X5

Obviously take master spellthief to raise the levels of spells I can steal, but he'd unfortunately only be able to hold one stolen spell at a time. More spells means more spells to channel and then between maneuvers arcane wrath and AbjChamp's spell burning abilities he can still power up for really high damage. The familiar probably wouldn't hurt either

[Silvercrys]

Spellsword doesn't grant spell channeling until L4 I believe so a one level dip wouldn't work.

The levels in wiz arent a bad idea and I could specialize abjurer if I still wanted to take AbjChamp.

Ok so what about this.

Spellthief1/Abjurer2/Spellsword4/Swordsage3/JPM1/AbjChamp5/X5

Obviously take master spellthief to raise the levels of spells I can steal, but he'd unfortunately only be able to hold one stolen spell at a time. More spells means more spells to channel and then between maneuvers arcane wrath and AbjChamp's spell burning abilities he can still power up for really high damage. The familiar probably wouldn't hurt eitherWell, you don't have the Base Attack or proficiencies to qualify for Spellsword with just Spellthief 1/Wizard 2. If you're using fractional attack bonus and saves you can do better, but this is the best I have unless you use that and/or Aasimar armor proficiency cheese:

Spellthief 2/Wizard 2/Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Spellsword 4/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 5, gets you BAB +17, Wizard 12 casting (6th level spells), IL 13 with one 7th level maneuver known. But unless you read Master Spellthief as counting all 4 levels of Spellsword, you're only going to be able to steal up to 6th level spells (and even if you do you can only steal 7ths).

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Fractional Base Attack would let you do something like Aasimar-or-Tiefling Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Swordsage 1/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4 (BAB +18, casting as Wizard 15, Steal Spells (8th), IL 13, Sneak Attack +3d6 with Assassin's Stance if you get it from a feat).

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Without Fractional BAB, any outsider's Martial Weapon Proficiency will let you sub Swordsage for Warblade and do Spellthief 1/Warblade 1/Wizard 2/Warblade +1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4, which gives you about the same as the fractional BAB stuff just you have Warblade skills instead of Swordsage ones.

Aasimar armor proficiency cheese basically just lets you swap Warblade X for Swordsage X+1 in that last build.

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Buuuut we might be going about this the wrong way, at least from an optimization stand point. The easiest way to get caster level for Master Spellthief is Abjurant Champion 5, and the easiest way to get 9th level spells is Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight class +4.

So we can do something like [+0 LA Outsider/Tiefling-or-Aasimar-with-LA-Buyoff] Spellthief 1/Bard 4/Warblade 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 4.

That gives you pretty decent skills from Bard 4, 'specially if you take Able Learner, a BAB of 17, 9th level spells as a level 9 Sublime Chord, an IL of 12 (11 at your last Maneuver Known a JPM 3), and Steal Spells (9th) because your CL for Bard is 17 + 1 level of Spellthief = CL 18 and Steal Spells as an 18th level Spellthief, and your Spellsword 4 Channel ability.

Think that's the best I can squeeze out of these classes. If you don't want/care about maneuvers you can play any race you want and swap Warblade for Fighter and JPM for Eldritch Knight or any other class with full base attack that advances spells per day at least 4/5 (Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, etc.). Or if your DM allows entry to Spellsword with just Warblade proficiencies (they're only proficient with martial melee weapons and medium armor, so you have to get proficiency with all martial weapons from your race and take Heavy Armor Prof. as a feat either way).

[KingBearKing]

I'm dense and missed out on that armor requirement. That really does hamper things lol. I had wanted to play a Kenku simply because they're cool and a shadow hand ninja crow sounded fun to play. I'm thinking taking a better race with better base buffs would be smarter

[Elves]

But unless you read Master Spellthief as counting all 4 levels of Spellsword, you're only going to be able to steal up to 6th level spells (and even if you do you can only steal 7ths).

This is explicit, no? The feat only specifies classes that grant arcane spellcasting. That's the whole basis of his heavy usage of spellsword it seems like.

[KingBearKing]

Would it be better to hold those levels of spell sword until later? It pushes back spell channeling but I could get my BAB and other prereqs sorted out first. I like the maneuvers a lot and taking swordsage or warblade earlier on would at least give me things to do in a fight other than using steal spell as a silence ability (though I'll be using that a lot, removing a powerful spell from an enemy is still insanely useful)

[Silvercrys]

This is explicit, no? The feat only specifies classes that grant arcane spellcasting. That's the whole basis of his heavy usage of spellsword it seems like.Yeah, I mean, I read it that way, but not all DMs are as literal/permissive as me. Heh. I'd also give Aasimar Medium Armor Proficiency so...


Would it be better to hold those levels of spell sword until later? It pushes back spell channeling but I could get my BAB and other prereqs sorted out first. I like the maneuvers a lot and taking swordsage or warblade earlier on would at least give me things to do in a fight other than using steal spell as a silence ability (though I'll be using that a lot, removing a powerful spell from an enemy is still insanely useful)Maybe? Depends on whether you like the Sublime Chord build or not -- if the actual spellcasting doesn't matter and you want to play a Kenku, that's a more than defensible choice, I just didn't know you had a race in mind to start. Give me a bit to retool, I'll probably come up with something.

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Edit:

Okay, I'm going to talk about some of the build challenges here and then give you some builds; don't take it as me griping or anything, just kind of talking out loud and maybe someone else has a better idea than me.

Spellsword 4/Abjurant Champion 5 is ~almost mandatory, which means we need Fighter proficiencies from somewhere. We also need a +4 BAB before we can enter Spellsword or a +5 BAB for Dragonslayer or Abjurant Champion.

Kenku have no racial proficiencies or bonus feats.

Spellthief 1 is locked in and carries no BAB or proficiencies worth noting.

Bard 4/Swordsage 3 gets us in with Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 4/Abjurant Champion 5, but we're a level 18 character with casting as a Bard 12. We can take Sublime Chord at level 14, then add Abjurant Champion after to get 7th level spells but I think that's the best we can do with this one.

Spellthief 1/Bard 4/Swordsage 3/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword +1

This gets Bard 7 casting at level 13, then dips Sublime Chord at 14 but only squeezes in 6 additional casting levels for 7th level spells. You also get Spellsword 4 pretty late (level 14), and your Swordsage maneuvers are all level 3-4 (though you can take a few more with feats when you aren't using them to qualify for everything else). You can get Sublime Chord sooner than that if you want to by dipping Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Sublime Chord 1, but that just pushes the delayed casting from Spellsword to after SC so you still only get 7th level spells and Steal Spells (8th).

Nar Demonbinder has a pretty bad spell list but it gets 8th level spells over 7 levels... Sorcerer 8 casting can get us into that, something like Battle Sorcerer 4/Swordsage 3/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 5?

Spellthief 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Swordsage 3/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 5/Nar Demonbinder 1/Abjurant Champion 5

Hmm... Still only hits 7th level spells and a much worse spell list than Sublime Chord. Think this one's a miss.

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What about Havoc Mage, from the Miniatures Handbook, instead of Spellsword? Has much easier prereqs and Battlecast works all day, and it's actually ~slightly better than channeling because you can get your sneak attack damage twice with a ray spell or touch attack (not that you have much sneak attack damage, but yeah).

Spellthief 1/Bard 4/Swordsage 2/Havoc Mage 5/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Ruathar 2... Gets you 8th level spells and Steal Spells (9th) at the cost of Swordsage 3?

Daggerspell Mage also gets a spell channeling -type ability, but it's the capstone... but it also has pretty good BAB, almost full casting progression, and sneak attack.

Spellthief 1/Bard 4/Daggerspell Mage 5/Sublime Chord 1/Daggerspell Mage +5/Abjurant Champion 4 gives you 9th level spells but no maneuvers, and doesn't set your BAB = CL but it does give you a Master Spellthief CL of 20 anyway, or

Spellthief 1/Bard 1/Wizard 3/Daggerspell Mage 3/Swordsage 2/Sublime Chord 1/Daggerspell Mage +7/Abjurant Champion 2 gives you some 3rd level maneuvers but delays the Daggerspell Mage capstone.Could even take Swordsage 1 early to have maneuvers sooner if you wanted (but you need to take Swordsage 2 at level 8 to get Assassin's Stance and a 3rd level maneuver).

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Can also just do something like Spellthief 1/Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5, sprinkle in 2 levels of Swordsage and call it a day. Something like Spellthief 1/Duskblade 7/Swordsage 1/Duskblade +6/Swordsage +1/Abjurant Champion 5 gives you 3rd level maneuvers at Swordsage 1 and a 5th level maneuver and stance at Swordsage 2.

Of course, if spellcasting isn't important at all, we can just do Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Swordsage 3/Havoc Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Swordsage +1/Spellsword +1, you only get Wizard 13 casting though and your BAB = CL is only 14 (Steal Spells 7th) while your actual Master Spellthief CL is 16 (Steal Spells 8th) so Abjurant Champion 5 isn't all that good for you. Can't do much better with Swordsage though because it's a 3/4 class, sorry. :smallfrown:

But! All of these work on a Kenku. I'd probably play something like the last build if we were starting at level 1, myself, but if you're starting at a higher level I might try to squeeze in a bit more with one of the other builds (I'm sure I've missed something...)

[KingBearKing]

Ok that took a minute to process and I had to research some of those classes lol. I like havoc mage, getting an extra hit in would be very good for this character since he's so all in. I don't see why it wouldn't work alongside channeling getting another spell effect tossed into the mix, though thats now 4levels devoted to Spellsword to make that happen.

I'm not super married to the race I just think kenku are cool. The original concept I had was a kobold but the light sensitivity was really just shooting myself in the foot not to mention the damage reduction of being a smaller size (though leaning hard into scoring sneak damage that matters less)

I'm still fairly married to the idea of him stacking different damage modifiers into one attack. Sneak attack in assassin stance performing death from above with a fireball infused in my blade and just delete an enemy from the fight. Basically acting like the rogue, but way flashier and in a convoluted way of getting there Lol.

More spells is definitely good. I need to read up more on sublime chord to work the bard angle into the character from a role-playing stand point but if more magic is what the party needs id be willing to sacrifice some of that rogueish sucker punch ability for more utility in my spells

[KingBearKing]

How about:

Spellthief2/Ranger2/Swordsage3/Wizard3/Havoc Mage5/Daggerspell Mage5

Ranger for two weapon fighting, low level sword sage but specialize in shadow hand dual weilding daggers, once he gets into daggerspell he could theoretically attack with each dagger infused with a spell and two battle cast spells as well. Not sure if you can combine maneuvers with all that but assassin stance is too good to pass up. Now just hide in the shadows and spam whirling blades...

[Silvercrys]

Main problem with only taking up to Daggerspell Mage 5 is you only get +1d6 Sneak Attack that way, though combining Havoc Mage's Battlecast and Daggerspell Mage 5 is clever.

Battlecast doesn't work with Strikes, though it does work with Boosts and/or the Jade Phoenix Mage Arcane Strike because it doesn't use your Swift. It doesn't work with TWF full attacks, either, though, and most boosts are pretty bad at increasing your damage.

Think we just bite the bullet and take a level of Fighter-or-Dragonslayer, something like:

(Stalwart) Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 1/Swordsage 3/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 7?

You won't get channel until level 13 and you only get 6th level spells, but you get all the tricks you wanted and 8th level maneuvers. Not even all that feat intensive, you take Dodge at level 1, Master Spellthief at 3, and Iron Will at 6, then you can get Assassin's Stance from a feat at 9 and take Craven or whatever at level 12.

Or for a Daggerspell Mage build something like Spellthief 1/Martial Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 2/Swordsage 1/Daggerspell Mage +8/Unseen Seer 4? You get better sneak attack dice, Assassin's Stance at the level 9 Swordsage dip (unless your DM makes you take a level 1 stance), and Martial Wizard gives you a bonus feat to get into Daggerspell Mage without dropping a caster level for Ranger 2... though your BAB is only +12, you can use Wraithstrike to attack touch AC and you have 9th level spells at level 20.

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There's a prestige class that ~probably gives Bardic Music to Sorcerers by RAW but you'd need to take flaws to make it work, I think. Spellsinger from Races of Faerun. You need Perform as a class skill and a bunch of bad feats so I dunno if it's good but you can probably do something (very roughly) like:

(Stalwart) Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 1/Spellsinger 2/Fighter 1/Swordsage 2/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 5

Which has a caster level/Spellthief level of 17 (just misses Steal Spell 9th) but gets 8th level spells and a bunch of maneuvers (IL 13 at level 20, so 7th level maneuvers). ~Should work with Kenku if you can swing one or two Unearthed Arcana flaws, might work with Human or Strongheart Halfling. Big issue is you need Perform as a class skill, which means Draconic Heritage (Song Dragon) from Races of the Dragon or Apprentice (Entertainer) from the DMG II on top of Improved Counterspell and Skill Focus: Perform to get into Spellsinger. Ew.

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Could solve a lot of casting problems with Trickster Spellthief into Sublime Chord, too, if you're open to that.

Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 4/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swordsage 1/Spellsinger +4 gets 6th level maneuvers at the Swordsage dip, spell channeling at level 9, and 9th level spells with a +16 BAB. Waiting that long for maneuvers is torture but you get spells while you wait and the earliest Spellsword channeling and ultimate cosmic power at level 20. You can swap Spellsinger and Abj Champ 5 at the end for Jade Phoenix Mage 5 to get better maneuvers but you lose 9s that way so it's not really better than one of the other builds, just cleaner because you have ~5 levels in all classes but 2 instead of a bunch of 1-2 level dips.

[Elves]

Do note that Havoc Mage's battlecast probably doesn't work with stolen spells because the battlecast spell must be a spell you "know", not simply one you can cast.

[Eladrinblade]

You could just ask your DM pretty please if they'd let you play a gestalt spellthief/duskblade.

[Mr Adventurer]

Battlecast also isn't a spell channel effect. It's more like an ersatz Quicken.

[KingBearKing]

I'm coming around on the bardic magic angle. The Kenku Mimicry ability synergizes in fun ways with that, especially spells like throw voice. Wouldn't Trickster Spellthief take away a hefty amount of skills and utility though? I would no longer have trapfinding and would have to rely on maneuvers and channeling to boost my sneak damage. Though if I'm moving away from being the party rogue maybe all I need is that 1d6 for stealing spells.

I'm holding on to that havoc/daggerspell combo for a later build idea I think that still has some merit lol. Like maybe try to work monk in there somehow. For the life of me I can't figure out how but that's an issue for another thread.

As for the spellthief I'd really have to know who else was in my party. Do we have a main caster and need a more melee focused rogue? Well then the wizard into JPM could be the way to go. Are we lacking in magic and I need those extra spells? Bardic spellthief it is. I don't see the character being front line for any encounter he was always intended to supply support through the tactical removal of spells to supplement the main caster with backup spells (and to "borrow" spells off of them for a touch) and then occasionally dump all his resources into making that one big play to try and swing the fight.

I appreciate everyone's input btw. With no one to play with or even anyone remotely interested this was driving me nuts thinking over all by myself lol.

[Mr Adventurer]

Don't forget for the Spellthief you also can only 'hold' a number of spell levels equal to your class level. That's less of a problem if you're planning on casting them out again as soon as possible, but if you only have 4 levels of Spellthief you can only hold a spell of 4th level at most.

[KingBearKing]

Hmm that does pose an issue. So even if I'm capable of stealing a 9th level spell I'd have to cast it right away to get any use out of it? I feel like I read somewhere a way to mitigate that, but it might have been someone's homebrew rewording of master spellthief and I try to avoid homebrew as much as possible. It really only ever works for the campaign it was originally designed for.

[Mr Adventurer]

Not even that - if you only have 4 levels of Spellthief, and you are empty, and you steal a 9th level spell* - then you lose that spell immediately without any chance to cast it at all.

*or any spell of 5th level or higher

Master Spellthief lets your levels in spellcasting classes stack with your Spellthief levels to determine the level of spell you can steal, but how many you can hold onto is a separate limitation.

[KingBearKing]

You could just ask your DM pretty please if they'd let you play a gestalt spellthief/duskblade.

While this does sound appealing I'd either need the rest of the party to also be playing gestalt builds or probably wind up taking a level adjust which who wants that.

[KingBearKing]

Not even that - if you only have 4 levels of Spellthief, and you are empty, and you steal a 9th level spell* - then you lose that spell immediately without any chance to cast it at all.

*or any spell of 5th level or higher

Master Spellthief lets your levels in spellcasting classes stack with your Spellthief levels to determine the level of spell you can steal, but how many you can hold onto is a separate limitation.


Ah... Well that's crap. Stealing that high level spell is still useful I suppose in the sense of it being a silence ability, but it looks like I'd really have to kiss up to the dm to allow master spellthief to fix that issue

[KingBearKing]

What if I completely abandoned the spellthief angle and instead leaned hard on the spell channeling. Went something like Martial Evoker5/Warblade1(for that armor proficiency)/Spellsword4/Swordsage8/Jade Phoenix2

Focus on fire based evocation spells and desert wind maneuvers for a pyromancer feel.

[Elves]

Then it's generic gish territory. Kind of spoils the idea. On the contrary, I would lean away from the spellcasting element if you don't think it's fitting. Why not just spellthief 9/crusader 1/spellsword 10? You could get assassin's stance via Martial Study. You get maximal spellthief casting, multiple channel, steal 9ths and enough spellthief levels to steal a 9th.


Here's your kenku Daggerspell Mage btw.
(https://i.imgur.com/RRinESz.jpg)

[Mr Adventurer]

Warblade doesn't have the requisite proficiencies to qualify you for Spellsword (they're neither proficient in all martial weapons, nor heavy armour).

[Mr Adventurer]

Here's your kenku Daggerspell Mage btw:

https://i.imgur.com/RRinESz.jpg

What's going on here, is that a ravenlike humanoid wearing a cape of black feathers over a checked brown cloak?

[KingBearKing]

Warblade doesn't have the requisite proficiencies to qualify you for Spellsword (they're neither proficient in all martial weapons, nor heavy armour).

Whoops I meant Crusader.

[KingBearKing]

Here's your kenku Daggerspell Mage btw:

https://i.imgur.com/RRinESz.jpg

I couldn't see this at first but when I quoted it then I could see the Url. That's awesome lol.

[Silvercrys]

Channeling spells isn't a very useful schtick when you only have 4th level Spellthief spells, I think. Not many of them are really worth channeling, so you're at the DM's mercy because you can only really channel whatever you steal. Burning them for smite effects with Jade Phoenix Mage is passable, though, something like:

(Trickster?) Spellthief 9/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 would get 4th or 6th level Spellthief spells, 3rd level maneuvers at Swordsage 1 + 8th level maneuvers at JPM 10, can steal 9th level spells even if you have a DM who won't allow Master Spellthief to apply to the level of spell you can hold (myself, I think that since it stacks for the purpose of the level of spell you can steal, and holding the spell is part of "Steal Spells", it should probably stack, but again I'm pretty permissive heh).

I do like the nova potential from getting 3d6 sneak attack + channeling a Fireball + burning a 9th level spell for JPM Arcane Strike + using a high level standard action Strike, but it's reaaaally hard without fractional BAB.

Something like Trickster Spellthief 4/Warblade 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +3 does it, but it's reaaaally feat intensive and only has 1d6 sneak attack unless you can take Martial Study and Martial Stance, but all of your early feats are tied up qualifying for stuff and you have to play an outsider to get proficiency in martial ranged weapons + take a feat to get heavy armor (or be a Crusader instead of a Warblade but I hate the Crusader maneuver recovery mechanic), and you need at least one flaw unless I miscounted.

[KingBearKing]

Things like fractional BAB or Gestalt builds would definitely help something with this many classes , but that's really at the discretion of the DM and not something I want to rely on.

I really hate that heavy armor requirement for Spellsword. It's silly for a character who would MAYBE use medium armor at most. That's another thing I could potentially ask the DM to look the other way on Lol. I wish there was a way to get a channel-like ability with just a minor dip since its really only the novelty that I'm after. Those other three levels of Spellsword are frankly wasted real estate.

I could give up on channeling and instead go for more maneuvers and boosting abilities like abjchamp and JPM. Remove Spellsword from that last build you listed and instead dump those levels into one of the other classes.

[KingBearKing]

I'm fine with taking flaws if the game allows them. Always good roleplay fodder. And I'm fine playing a human if I really need the extra feats. Though I'll miss mimicry and naming my Kenku "Kaw" so that when asked his name he just screams at people.

[KingBearKing]

Question: if I steal a 9th level spell but cannot cast it, could I instead burn it for +4 attack and 9D10 using Arcane Wrath?

[Silvercrys]

Question: if I steal a 9th level spell but cannot cast it, could I instead burn it for +4 attack and 9D10 using Arcane Wrath?I don't think so, no. It isn't a prepared spell or spell slot according to the Steal Spells ability, it's its own weird thing.

Duskblade 3 can channel any touch spell, just can't do a Fireball or whatever so you're pretty much stuck with metamagicked Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch. Trickster Spellthief 6/Duskblade 3/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsinger +4 is uh. A thing. Not much different from Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurabt Champion 5/Spellsinger +4 though. Has 2 more held spell levels by the literal reading and a worse channeling ability, essentially.

Spellthief 7/Duskblade 13 with Master Spellthief, interleaving the Spellthief levels so you take one whenever your Steal Spells goes up is a thing too I guess.

[KingBearKing]

Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurabt Champion 5/Spellsinger +4

Would working in swordsage1/JPM1 be worth it? Even if I can't use it with stolen spells Arcane Wrath is fun, plus a handful of maneuvers

[KingBearKing]

Maybe even substitute channeling for battlecasting. Something like trickster spellthief 4/warblade 1/havoc mage5/JPM10

This leaves him able to steal 7th level spells, full JPM maneuvers, and the ability to battlecast. Not quite the same as the original concept but potentially more useful if he's scoring double damage rolls alongside his maneuvers. The low sneak damage is an issue for this build and really only useful for stealing spells however.

[Silvercrys]

Battlecast doesn't work with most maneuvers, sadly. I think Spellsword has the only channeling ability that actually works with them because it's a move action.

Think the best you can do with Swordsage is Trickster Spellthief 4/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 4/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4, but you need Aasimar to give you medium armor proficiency, and you have to take feats like so:

1: Apprentice Entertainer

3: Heavy Armor Proficiency

6: Improved Counterspell

9: Skill Focus (Perform)

So you need a flaw to get Master Spellthief at level 6. If you can get 2 flaws Able Learner is very good for your skill points because you have to keep Perform and Listen maxed to get into Sublime Chord.

If you can take two flaws you can use any outsider for martial weapons prof. and take medium armor prof. with your extra flaw, though, and you still get 9th level spells (albeit at level 20), so that's a plus. And at level 12 you can take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance straight up instead of needing Martial Study for a shadow hand maneuver first.

[KingBearKing]

Wouldn't the level adjust from playing an outsider hamstring me just a little?

That's a shame about battlecast not working with maneuvers. On paper it seems a tad more useful than channeling, plus I was thinking of all the fun ways I could use JPM's built in metamagic to synergizes with my battlecast spells, but alas.

So with the build you just listed, what would be my generally most effective play style? I assume he's more caster/bard with a smattering of combatant skill as opposed to a rogue with spells.

[Falontani]

Not actually looking too closely but some ideas:
1) Racial Emulation feat (requires Changeling) allows access to all the different racial acfs. This could help you meet prerequisites or get access to interesting abilities. (For example, 1 level of paladin is quite weak, and smite evil is fairly garbage, however half orc paladin grants a powerful buff for a decent length instead of smite evil)
2) Changeling Rogue and Changeling wizard both have more skill points available than usual. Starting off with 10+int mod x4 lets you get most important skills maxed out right off. Add in Able Learner and your skill point game will hardly ever have problems.
3) Human Paragon, Elf Paragon, Gnome Paragon, Half Elf Paragon, and Drow Paragon all can increase wizard cl. Meaning they all count as arcane casters for the purposes of Master Spellthief.
4) Rage Mage while usually worthless, increases your caster level to equal your character level with certain schools while in a spell rage. This could be useful to certain builds.
5) Spellwarp Sniper 1 allows any spell to be converted to a ranged touch. Which can then allow a duskblade to channel it.
6) Spellthief is a spontaneous spellcaster, and thus all the usual adding spells to spells known work for it. Like the bloodlines from Dragon Compendium or Sand Shaper. (This does add some interesting and powerful touch spells!)
7) Warlock into Nosomatic Chirugen grants unlimited inflict touch spells that work against undead. Master of Night and Day maximizes all inflict and cure spells.
8) Cheesy cheese: UA Bloodline *can* increase your cl as if you'd taken a level... In all the classes you possess... Up to three times. Meaning if you had 5 classes that grant increase casting every level and 1 class that granted it, you'd get 6 cls... Three times... For a total of 18 cls... Beware of flying books, different interpretations, and incoherent dms

[Silvercrys]

Wouldn't the level adjust from playing an outsider hamstring me just a little?Yeah, if you can't use LA buyoff you'd have to find an LA+0 one like Neraph.


That's a shame about battlecast not working with maneuvers. On paper it seems a tad more useful than channeling, plus I was thinking of all the fun ways I could use JPM's built in metamagic to synergizes with my battlecast spells, but alas.Yeah, you can do Arcane Wrath and Battlecast but you can't do a strike at the same time because strikes need a standard action and Battlecast is a special full-round, sadly.


So with the build you just listed, what would be my generally most effective play style? I assume he's more caster/bard with a smattering of combatant skill as opposed to a rogue with spells.You're more of a back up frontliner/melee striker running on daily resources (spells per day) than anything else. Basically a rogue that needs to rest to recover spell slots but doesn't have the usual sneak attack caveats since your main source of damage is Arcane Wrath. You'll need to use spells to replace your skill checks and stuff, too, since you don't have many skill points later on. Invisibility for sneaking, stuff like that.

So, yeah, like a Bard with paladin smites instead of party buffs. Spellsword just helps you spend your spell slots faster/nova since you can do Arcane Wrath + channel damage spell + strike for damage on one attack.

[KingBearKing]

You're more of a back up frontliner/melee striker running on daily resources (spells per day) than anything else. Basically a rogue that needs to rest to recover spell slots but doesn't have the usual sneak attack caveats since your main source of damage is Arcane Wrath. You'll need to use spells to replace your skill checks and stuff, too, since you don't have many skill points later on. Invisibility for sneaking, stuff like that.

So, yeah, like a Bard with paladin smites instead of party buffs. Spellsword just helps you spend your spell slots faster/nova since you can do Arcane Wrath + channel damage spell + strike for damage on one attack.

Cool. That's more or less what I was going for thematically. Also, is a level 1dip into crusader really all that bad? If it frees up all that feat space/race requirement I think that might make up for a weird random maneuver mechanic

[Silvercrys]

Cool. That's more or less what I was going for thematically. Also, is a level 1dip into crusader really all that bad? If it frees up all that feat space/race requirement I think that might make up for a weird random maneuver mechanicIt's not -- it's quite good, probably even optimal, I just can't stand their recovery mechanic and will do literally anything to avoid it, including playing as a weird frog and spending two feats.

But yeah if you don't mind it Crusader actually gets the proficiencies you need by itself so you can play and Elf or whatever and you don't need flaws. I thought it had the same weapon proficiencies as Warblade, but apparently not.

[KingBearKing]

So now we're looking at Trickster Spellthief 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 4/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4

I have access to fewer maneuvers, but more feat space to pick up things like assassin stance.

Also I'm working on a drawing of the kenku version of this character I'll post him when it's done.

[KingBearKing]

I don't have an Imgur account so hopefully flickr works

https://www.flickr.com/photos/184675277@N05/?

[Anthrowhale]

Using Heartfire Fanner instead of Spellsinger may be better? Heartfire Fanner explicitly grants bardic music while Spellsinger is more iffy. Plus, Heartfire Fanners allows you to grant feats which is fun.

[KingBearKing]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/184675277@N05/48807923301/in/dateposted-public/

[Silvercrys]

Using Heartfire Fanner instead of Spellsinger may be better? Heartfire Fanner explicitly grants bardic music while Spellsinger is more iffy. Plus, Heartfire Fanners allows you to grant feats which is fun.Yeah, Heartfire Fanner works too/better if Dragon Magazine content is allowed (would have to be for Trickster Spellthief, I suppose).

Just have to make sure you keep track of the prereqs, you have to wait until level 8 to take the level of Heartfire Fanner so you need to do like Trickster Spellthief 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 1/Heartfire Fanner 1/Spellsword +3/Sublime Chord 1/Abj Champ 4/JPM +4 or something?

[Elves]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/184675277@N05/48807923301/in/dateposted-public/

Very cute.

[KingBearKing]

Heartfire Fanner sounds cool. I like the feat ability that's interesting and would give him even more team utility.

So let's craft a little backstory for Kaw the Kenku Crow Man.

Abandoned as a puppy he was found by Muriel and her husband Eustace Baggs who lived in the middle of nowhere. No wait that's courage the cowardly dog...

Kaw was always a bit different. Not to say he wasn't bright, just a curious bird unlike others of his clan. Shunned for his perceived dimness he was abandoned by the other Kenku, left to fend for himself in the wild.
It was fortunate that after only a few days of squawking around the forrest a traveling bard on his way to the city found the young crow plucking worms from a rotting log for his breakfast. The man took Kaw under his wing so to speak, and the two traveled together for several years with Kaw initially collecting coin whenever the bard played to eventually singing along his natural talent to mimic the sounds he heard making him a natural performer.
Now traveling from city to city can be dangerous work, and the Bard had a moderate understanding of the arcane arts to aid in the safety of their journeys. Kaw watched with starry eyed awe as one day his master lobbed a burning orb of fire at a group of bandits that beset them on the road. But not before being gravely wounded. As His master called for his assistance, Kaw could feel energy pouring from his master's wound, the same energy he felt pulse through the air anytime he was near a spell. He reached out, placing a taloned hand on his master's wound. He felt a sudden rush of energy and arcane understanding flood his mind. He had taken one of his master's spells, and on pure instinct cast the healing spell closing his master's wounds. His master stood, and not wanting to face a pair of mages the bandits fled.

Kaw would then decide it time to journey on on his own, saying Farewell to his master to set out and learn more about magic. This is where he begins as a level 1 trickster spellthief, and meets the party to set out on whatever quest they embark on. Through their travels he must encounter the jade Phoenix mages as well as members of the brotherhood of the burning heart, and strive to be a Crusader for their ideals. His natural Mimicry is the perfect instrument, and so his Bardic spells will echo across the battlefield in the form of birdsong, e emboldening his team as he plucks magic from his foes weaving the arcane energies into magical buffs and devastating attacks.

Performer.
Thief.
Warrior.
Mage.
Dumb ****ing bird.
Kaw.