Crusader - Recovering Expended Maneuvers

[smetzger]

How does recovering expended maneuvers work for the Crusader?

Rules --
"If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you."

I understand that Extra Maneuver adds to this new pair of readied maneuvers.

1st level. Say, you have 3 maneuvers which have been granted at the beginning of your turn. You have already used one maneuver and you use one more this turn. Then you get one more maneuver granted at the end of this turn. So, you have 3 granted/available maneuvers to use next turn and 2 which have been expended.

Next turn, you use a maneuver. Now, you have 'no withheld maneuvers remaining'. So, if I am reading this correct you would get all 3 of those expended maneuvers as granted(provided you have the Extra Maneuver feat) and you would have 5 granted maneuvers to choose from next turn.

Is that correct?

If so, I have been playing it wrong. I was playing it that you need to expend all 5 of your maneuvers and then you would be granted a random 3.

[DEMON]

How does recovering expended maneuvers work for the Crusader?

Rules --
"If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you."

I understand that Extra Maneuver adds to this new pair of readied maneuvers.

1st level. Say, you have 3 maneuvers which have been granted at the beginning of your turn. You have already used one maneuver and you use one more this turn. Then you get one more maneuver granted at the end of this turn. So, you have 3 granted/available maneuvers to use next turn and 2 which have been expended.

Next turn, you use a maneuver. Now, you have 'no withheld maneuvers remaining'. So, if I am reading this correct you would get all 3 of those expended maneuvers as granted(provided you have the Extra Maneuver feat) and you would have 5 granted maneuvers to choose from next turn.

Is that correct?

If so, I have been playing it wrong. I was playing it that you need to expend all 5 of your maneuvers and then you would be granted a random 3.

You don't need to expend them all. Once you have no withheld maneuvers left, the next round the whole process begins anew and you recover all expended maneuvers and get a new set of withheld and granted maneuvers.

[tyckspoon]

Next turn, you use a maneuver. Now, you have 'no withheld maneuvers remaining'. So, if I am reading this correct you would get all 3 of those expended maneuvers as granted(provided you have the Extra Maneuver feat) and you would have 5 granted maneuvers to choose from next turn.

Is that correct?

If so, I have been playing it wrong. I was playing it that you need to expend all 5 of your maneuvers and then you would be granted a random 3.

Yup. Might be easier to follow it with physical tokens - Crusader works nicely with a pile of cards, both for reminders on how the maneuvers work and for tracking granted maneuvers. At the start of each combat, shuffle up your 'readied maneuvers' pile, draw 2 (or 3 with Extra Maneuver.) These are your initial granted maneuvers. At the end of each round, draw one more from the Readied pile. As you initiate the maneuvers, discard them to the 'Expended' pile. When your readied maneuvers pile is empty, shuffle together the 'Expended' pile, return it to the 'Readied' pile, and draw a new 'full' hand of 2 (3/4/5, depending on feats and level) maneuvers.

So yes, if you're stingy with your maneuvers or didn't pick a good mix of counters/strikes/boosts that lets you use multiple action types in a turn you can pretty easily wind up with most of your maneuvers granted at any one time, as you will normally only use one Strike per turn but will be receiving more cards than that on average.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Crusader 1; no modifying feats, 5 maneuvers readied

Combat round 1, top of the turn: you have 2 maneuvers granted before your first action. When you declare the end of your turn, a third is granted.

Rnd 2: You begin your turn with the 3 maneuvers you had granted at the end of round 1, even if they're expended they are still granted. Upon declaring the end of your turn, your 4th maneuver is granted.

Rnd 3: As round 2 and your 5th and final maneuver is granted at the end of your turn.

Round 4: all 5 maneuvers are granted at the start of the turn, expended or not. When you declare the end of your turn, you have no maneuvers left to grant. This triggers the refresh. All manuevers that were expended are refreshed and two of your readied maneuvers are randomly granted while the other three become withheld.

Round 5: as round 1. Rinse and repeat until encounter ends.

Extra granted maneuver makes the cycle take one turn less and lets you begin it with three granted maneuvers rather than 2. Extra readied maneuver is swordsage only. It isn't available to a crusader unless he's a multiclass character and can't be applied to his crusader maneuvers even then.

[Lapak]

Next turn, you use a maneuver. Now, you have 'no withheld maneuvers remaining'. So, if I am reading this correct you would get all 3 of those expended maneuvers as granted(provided you have the Extra Maneuver feat) and you would have 5 granted maneuvers to choose from next turn.

Is that correct?

If so, I have been playing it wrong. I was playing it that you need to expend all 5 of your maneuvers and then you would be granted a random 3.
You were right up until the point where I quote. You don't get all 5 granted; the slate is wiped clean. It's effectively Round 1 of combat again, where you get random maneuvers granted and the rest are withheld. You don't have the use all your granted maneuvers to trigger a refresh, but the ones you DON'T use will be shuffled back in and may be withheld even though they were granted the round before

[smetzger]

You were right up until the point where I quote. You don't get all 5 granted; the slate is wiped clean. It's effectively Round 1 of combat again, where you get random maneuvers granted and the rest are withheld. You don't have the use all your granted maneuvers to trigger a refresh, but the ones you DON'T use will be shuffled back in and may be withheld even though they were granted the round before

Gotcha, that makes more sense.

[Rijan_Sai]

Yup. Might be easier to follow it with physical tokens - Crusader works nicely with a pile of cards, both for reminders on how the maneuvers work and for tracking granted maneuvers. At the start of each combat, shuffle up your 'readied maneuvers' pile, draw 2 (or 3 with Extra Maneuver.) These are your initial granted maneuvers. At the end of each round, draw one more from the Readied pile. As you initiate the maneuvers, discard them to the 'Expended' pile. When your readied maneuvers pile is empty, shuffle together the 'Expended' pile, return it to the 'Readied' pile, and draw a new 'full' hand of 2 (3/4/5, depending on feats and level) maneuvers.
Sounds like you've got the gist of it; it really becomes quite natural (with all three initiators) after just a little practice!
I would agree that cards (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) are really the way to go with initiators... makes things so much easier!