OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwvwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:biggrin:

Now that was just adorable.

[DeTess]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwvwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:biggrin:

Now that was just adorable.

Ye, this, all of this :smile:

[super dark33]

What can i say but uwu

[WolvesbaneIII]

Such a heart warming page. what does the title mean? is it a reference? a joke?

I wonder if its a reference to him holding the baby up, or something.

edit:

Ah. its a reference to the babys size.

mi·nute2
/mīˈn(y)o͞ot/
adjective
adjective: minute; superlative adjective: minutest
extremely small.

Hence he held up the "minute" object.

Unless it's something else. In which case enlighten me, as I'm likely overthinking it.

Or it could be "hold up a minute. Are they patching things up?"

Heh, this is a nice play on words by the author, intentional or not.

[Vemynal]

I love their barbs to each other at the end lol

[AstralFire]

Well, at least there's a hope that Kudzu won't have his parents hostile to each other. Openly or furtively, it's always bad for the kids.

[Marol]

This made me quite happy :)

[Thecommander236]

I'm surprised she would even deem to give him false hope of seeing his kid when this is all set and done. I don't think she is at all willing to share custody, but maybe that's just me. Or maybe its because she murdered him not a single day ago. That could be it.

[Vessyra]

Awww, so cute. It's so nice, after all of this dramatic tension and fight scenes that have been going on for this arc, to have such a beautiful chapter ending.

[MoonCat]

The title made me laugh when I understood it, very clever. And also awww.

[AstralFire]

I'm surprised she would even deem to give him false hope of seeing his kid when this is all set and done. I don't think she is at all willing to share custody, but maybe that's just me. Or maybe its because she murdered him not a single day ago. That could be it.

I very much dislike her, but I think it is prudent to note that the most passionate hatreds are very often built on a core of damaged love. She got her hate out of her system already (mostly) and she has had evidence already that he wasn't being a non-presence in the child's life by choice or intentional neglect. It's not too surprising she's able to rekindle enough affection to act like an adult for Kudzu's sake.

While I disliked the flame strike scene quite a lot (I don't think the tonal dissonance landed in a good way) I think we were meant to see it as a gag more than something serious.

[MoonCat]

Well, at least there's a hope that Kudzu won't have his parents hostile to each other. Openly or furtively, it's always bad for the kids.

I do hope that those two work it out--not in the sense of being a couple, that would be pretty toxic and regressive- but find a way to co-parent, since they're clearly both deeply invested in Kudzu's wellbeing.

[5crownik007]

Nice. Reconciliation, even just a bit. This is good. Neutral Good.

[Kantaki]

Cute...

...Is it bad that I'm worried about Durkon now?
Before this I more or less thought „Eh, they'll be fine."
Now? „Oh... Durkon's gonna die, isn't he?:smalleek:

[2D8HP]

*snif*

I think I've got something in my eye

:frown:

[AstralFire]

I do hope that those two work it out--not in the sense of being a couple, that would be pretty toxic and regressive- but find a way to co-parent, since they're clearly both deeply invested in Kudzu's wellbeing.

Fully agreed.

[NNescio]

Well, at least there's a hope that Kudzu won't have his parents hostile to each other. Openly or furtively, it's always bad for the kids.

Currently there's lots of passive aggressiveness abound though. With Durkon stating (somewhat obliquely) his intent to pursue custody or at least visitation rights if Hilgya denies him.

But still, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww .

[KishouTheBadger]

We've seen parents of conflicting alignments try and fail to get things worked out. Just look what happened with Elan and Nale. They were once twins, but now... not anymore.

There is some barbs and hostility still there, but Durkon is at least TRYING to be a good father role model, even if Hilgya doesn't believe he has a chance of winning and is taking precautionary measures. They'll be good parents... sorta.

[LordSith]

Feelings. Feelings everywhere

[Shoelessgdowar]

Yes, yes, awww, cute... but is it just me, or is Kudzu reading his mom's big word bubble in panel 3 and disliking her plan (perhaps just the Plane of Earth part). Kudzu's also seems envious of his panel 12 self in Panel 8... or at least that is how it looks to me.

[Baron Pineapple]

That really was a nice scene, and I'm hoping Hilgya and Durkon manage to come together as parents when this is all said and done. :-)

[Linneris]

I still don't like how Hilgya got away scot free for everything she did, including killing Durkon right after ressing him.

[Carl]

Daaaaw. needed this after a rough day. Damm it, thank you giant.

[Caractacus]

So, here I am, tearing up over my soup during lunch break...💕

[Garwain]

As Belkar would say; The stupid wind blew some stupid dust and now I have a stupid tear in my eye.

[Effluvium]

Well, thank you.

It just made my day ... better ... reading that. :smallsmile:

[The Pilgrim]

Well said this time, Durkon. Glad to see Hilgya is gonna be civil about the children issue from now on.

[wolph42]

That really was a tear dropping scene!

[JoseB]

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

I like that it seems that they are both willing to put Kudzu's well-being above other considerations, and it is nice to see that there seem not to be any "kill on sight" tendencies.

And the part that hit me most in the feels? After Durkon (subtly) implies that he is going to ask for at least visitation rights on the kid, Hilgya replies: "He needs you to come back alive for that, you know." This somehow affected me. Hilgya is conniving, and not to be trusted, but she knows that her kid needs a father, and is expressing hope of Durkon's return. In a somewhat passive-aggressive way, but she expresses it.

I like that.

[Fyraltari]

Ah! My feels! Critical damage!

[mjasghar]

Umm is there any connotation to the last panel being slightly grayed? As if it’s being seen through a scrying orb or something
And no mention of Hilgya encountering Curly.

[Ron Miel]

Such a heart warming page. what does the title mean? is it a reference? a joke?

I wonder if its a reference to him holding the baby up, or something.

edit:

Ah. its a reference to the babys size.

mi·nute2
/mīˈn(y)o͞ot/
adjective
adjective: minute; superlative adjective: minutest
extremely small.

Hence he held up the "minute" object.

Unless it's something else. In which case enlighten me, as I'm likely overthinking it.

Or it could be "hold up a minute. Are they patching things up?"

Heh, this is a nice play on words by the author, intentional or not.


The phrase "Hold up a minute" is usually said when someone is about to leave, and another person want to discuss something before they go.

It is used in this sense here. Hilgya is about to leave, but Durkon wants to discuss with her about Kudzu before she goes.

It ALSO means that he gets to hold his son for a short time. So that's a double meaning.

I think that "minute" only means the period of time. I don't think it refers to a small thing. That's probably unintentional.

[Hiro Quester]

I think the grayed-out look of the last panel is just comic version of an emotionally satisfying fade-out (the camera pulling away and going slightly out of focus) implying this went on for a minute or two, .

Plus it’s representing our feels.

[Souhiro]

That really was a tear dropping scene!
Congratulations, mr. Giant.

This scene? It's about LOVE. And you put it without hugging, kissing, nor even a lot of smiling!

But nevertheless, this is 100% pure and heartwarming lovr.


Now I hate the Dark One and Redcloak even more, because they want to destroy a world that house this family

[CandidKid]

Nice to see some Durkon Daddy getting a chance to hold his young 'un. *scrubbed*

[CandidKid]

*snif*

I think I've got something in my eye

:frown:

Stab. Got it out for you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) (With affection)

[Cirin]

Such a heart warming page. what does the title mean? is it a reference? a joke?

I wonder if its a reference to him holding the baby up, or something.

edit:

Ah. its a reference to the babys size.

mi·nute2
/mīˈn(y)o͞ot/
adjective
adjective: minute; superlative adjective: minutest
extremely small.

Hence he held up the "minute" object.

Unless it's something else. In which case enlighten me, as I'm likely overthinking it.

Or it could be "hold up a minute. Are they patching things up?"

Heh, this is a nice play on words by the author, intentional or not.

"Hold up a minute" is colloquial English for asking someone to delay what they're doing briefly. "Wait a minute" is of the same meaning.

It's a double play on "hold up", with Durkon briefly delaying his departure, and holding up little Kudzu.

[thiakx]

What a great way to wrap up the vampire arc

[Analytica]

So, with both parents in place like this, I don't think Kudzu will be a cleric of either Thor or Loki. Odin, perhaps? Finding wisdom in the balance between opposites?

Also? This is what you get with opposing alignments but very high wisdom!

[Dausuul]

Cute...

...Is it bad that I'm worried about Durkon now?
Before this I more or less thought „Eh, they'll be fine."
Now? „Oh... Durkon's gonna die, isn't he?:smalleek:
Seems like that would be a little redundant at this point. :)

[Anymage]

I wonder how Hilgya will be effected by one simple fact. There's no way that Durkon's extended family won't take her and Kudzu in, and there's equally no way they won't be a good influence. I know we'll have a good, long while until the next book is finished, but I'll want to see what happens in the denouement.

[Worldsong]

I don't like Hilgya, but I can believe that she understands that Kudzu needs a father figure in his life, and that trying to keep Durkon away from him because of personal dislike would do more harm than good.

[Wolv90]

I'm neh crying, yea crying!:smallsigh:

[Wolv90]

So, with both parents in place like this, I don't think Kudzu will be a cleric of either Thor or Loki. Odin, perhaps? Finding wisdom in the balance between opposites?

Maybe another pantheon entirely? Or maybe just piss everyone off and become the first Dwarven botanist with a garden full of trees.

[Crusher]

Awwww.

On the other hand, this means Durkon isn’t coming back, doesn’t It?

[Angelalex242]

Well then. Hopefully this isn't the narrative equivalent of the guy with a family photo who goes to war and promptly dies.

[Cicciograna]

Okay, I'll admit it.

I misted.

[machiavelli33]

Maybe another pantheon entirely? Or maybe just piss everyone off and become the first Dwarven botanist with a garden full of trees.

I was just thinking this. Kid's gonna grow up pledged to the Eastern Pantheon at this rate.

[Quartz]

That was awwwsome.

[Zhorn]

*manly tears*

[Grey Watcher]

Dad Durkon is Best Durkon. :-)

[Necris Omega]

... eh, this should be a purely "awww" scene, but Hilgya and the context behind her is just too much of a distraction. The team may have foregone seeing her dealt with at Durkon's wishes, but at an absolute bare minimum she should not have custody of her child. This was evident when she named him after an all consuming horror weed, and became all the moreso when she, y'know, murdered Durkon.

But, I'm trying to look on the "bright" side here - viewing her custodianship of Kudzu like the best case scenario for Belkar running a pet hotel. Sure, he's evil and deranged, but if he loves anything that's not himself and food, animals seem to be it. He may be a bad influence on your beloved dog for their stay, but he will go absolutely John Wick on anything that tries to hurt it.

[gerryq]

Useful justification for boob armour!

[Mr_Ratatosk]

I'm extremely happy with how this ended. I've seen a thing or two on how things work when it doesn't work out for the parents. There are always hurt feelings when that happens, and those feelings are frequently justified. Nonetheless, in that situation, unless there is something like abuse going on (whether physical or emotional), the kid in that relationship needs to feel that his or her parents still respect each other on some level. After all, that kid is half both of them. Hearing that half of you is evil will mess with your head.

Thank you Giant for wrapping this up on a good note for them.

Edit: I should clarify, this doesn't mean that I think Hilgya should have custody, or that Durkon shouldn't be on his guard for his son's sake. I'm only saying I'm glad that this ended with both of them approaching the topic of their son the way they should be. It's a good start.

[JBiddles]

... eh, this should be a purely "awww" scene, but Hilgya and the context behind her is just too much of a distraction. The team may have foregone seeing her dealt with at Durkon's wishes, but at an absolute bare minimum she should not have custody of her child. This was evident when she named him after an all consuming horror weed, and became all the moreso when she, y'know, murdered Durkon.

But, I'm trying to look on the "bright" side here - viewing her custodianship of Kudzu like the best case scenario for Belkar running a pet hotel. Sure, he's evil and deranged, but if he loves anything that's not himself and food, animals seem to be it. He may be a bad influence on your beloved dog for their stay, but he will go absolutely John Wick on anything that tries to hurt it.

Well said.

Creepy stalker who tried to murder their ex for rejecting them is cute, so it's OK!

[Lord Torath]

Well, someone's up early. Or possibly late. Thank for burning the midnight oil for us, Rich!

And thanks for giving us such a cute scene with Durkon and Kudzu.

[Psychronia]

D'aww. Looks like they've gotten the "separated parents" passive aggressiveness down already, all while more or less keeping Kudzu's best interests at heart.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sigdi and the extended family will doubtless offer Hilgya and Kudzu an invitation to various dinners and functions, and I wonder how Hilgya would/will respond to such offers? I will guess that these things will happen off screen.

The last panel was sweet. Panels 2 and 11 indicate that Kudzu has an inherent positive reaction to Durkon. That's neat.

[Basement Cat]

So..so...so many feels!!! :smallsmile:

[JumboWheat01]

And there's our cute quota met so very easily.

[hroþila]

Well said.

Creepy stalker who tried to murder their ex for rejecting them is cute, so it's OK!
I don't think any of that was presented as being OK, given the reactions of the characters. That it was used for comedy doesn't mean that it was condoned, in the same way Xykon's murderous hijinks are often funny but never OK. It's not that it's OK, it's more that it's not something they can deal with at the moment.

[D.One]

Cute. Touching. Beautifully done. Loved it.

As a divorced father myself, I'm quite fond of seeing Kudzu's well being put first over the struggles beetween themselves. Thanks, Giant.


So, with both parents in place like this, I don't think Kudzu will be a cleric of either Thor or Loki. Odin, perhaps? Finding wisdom in the balance between opposites?

Also? This is what you get with opposing alignments but very high wisdom!

Father: Lawful Good Cleric of Thor
Mother: Chaotic Evil Cleric of Loki
Kudzu: True Neutral Druid, of course. He'll grow to know the extremes in alignment, and learn to reconcile them both, and will extend that even further to make peace with dwarves' most ancient and hated enemy: the trees. If his name isn't a clue, nothing more can be.

[Arathorne]

Cute. Touching. Beautifully done. Loved it.

As a divorced father myself, I'm quite fond of seeing Kudzu's well being put first over the struggles beetween themselves. Thanks, Giant.



Father: Lawful Good Cleric of Thor
Mother: Chaotic Evil Cleric of Loki
Kudzu: True Neutral Druid, of course. He'll grow to know the extremes in alignment, and learn to reconcile them both, and will extend that even further to make peace with dwaves' most ancient and hated enemy: the trees. If his name isn't a clue, nothing more can be.

Well stated and I fully agree on all points, having had kids and stepkids, (now all fully grown, one sadly already passed :smalleek:)

[I_of_Infinity]

How the last panel tends to work with our little-un:

I have Mummy! There's a Daddy over there... I want Daddy-cuddles... I have Daddy! There's a Mummy over there... I want Mummy-cuddles... I have Mummy! There's a Daddy over there... I want Daddy-cuddles...

[KorvinStarmast]

Father: Lawful Good Cleric of Thor
Mother: Chaotic Evil Cleric of Loki
Kudzu: True Neutral Druid, of course. He'll grow to know the extremes in alignment, and learn to reconcile them both, and will extend that even further to make peace with dwarves' most ancient and hated enemy: the trees. If his name isn't a clue, nothing more can be. That would be a great outcome. (OK, I like to play druids, sue me! )

I have Mummy! There's a Daddy over there... I want Daddy-cuddles... I have Daddy! There's a Mummy over there... I want Mummy-cuddles... I have Mummy! There's a Daddy over there... I want Daddy-cuddles... Yep, been in that cycle, it's great.

[drazen]

So much for Hilgya getting her comeuppance at the hands of Curly, as many on the forum thought would happen.

And we learn the dwarves have a Grand Arbiter. Does that imply they use mediation instead of courts/torts? Would it have applied to Hilgya's divorce as well, had her husband's clan not been in no position to contest it?

Also, the author must have had some insomnia. 3:41 AM... then again, the cat woke me up at that hour today as well. :smallsigh:

(actually, given that he's almost all white, I just noticed the cat could play Mr. Scruffy in a live-action OOTS, except I don't know if Mr. Scruffy weighs 20 pounds.)

[Peelee]

I think this is the best resolution to the Hilgya-Kudzu-Durkon plot thread that I could have wanted. And it doesn't hurt that my little guy is roughly the same point in development. Hits me all the harder, I says!


... eh, this should be a purely "awww" scene, but Hilgya and the context behind her is just too much of a distraction. The team may have foregone seeing her dealt with at Durkon's wishes, but at an absolute bare minimum she should not have custody of her child. This was evident when she named him after an all consuming horror weed, and became all the moreso when she, y'know, murdered Durkon.
She doesn't deserve custody because of the way she named him? That doesn't strike you as a Miko-esque gross overreaction?

Also, she raised Durkon. He got better. How do you want the Order to deal with her, kill her and raise her? Strictly an eye for an eye? They're not judge, jury, and executioner. They're not meting out justice for every transgression they see. They have a mission, and that's what they're focused on. Hilgya can get her comeuppance in the afterlife, there's no reason for the Order to have to address every wrong they come across.

[hajo]

Yes, yes, awww, cute...
Plane of Earth
Assuming that Hilgya's plan to plane-shift works -
how&how long could someone survive on some other plane ?

I don't think there are farms, settlements etc. waiting out there...

[Schroeswald]

I was clearly correct in my picking of the next strips because I put a Hilgya wrap-up strip in there, ignore that I had it as 1182, I was correct.

[tigerusthegreat]

I love their barbs to each other at the end lol

They'll end up married in the end. They already got the spousal banter down.

[King of Nowhere]

not happy about that. hilgya is dangerous, she will ruin kudzu, and she will ruin durkon if durkon stays close to her.

my brother married a pshyco, and he tried hard to make it work, and she ruined his life. divorcing is the only good decision he made about it. and she was stilll not as bad as hilgya.

hilgya may be all protective of the baby, but that's another part of the problem. as a teacher, i've seen how parents with skewed moral priorities and strong protective attitudes for their children consistently ruin their children. they are the one who will keep justifying their sons even after they take up bullying or crime.

I've had to deal with enough hilgyas that I can't be happy about anything non-bad happening to her.

[Ornithologist]

Well said.

Creepy stalker who tried to murder their ex for rejecting them is cute, so it's OK!

I mean, you're not wrong. I think anyone who has seen a divorcing couple would take the other opinion though. It takes a high Wisdom to work with your ex rather than try to spite them long term for the sake of the kid(s). Also, it occurs to me that Sigdi's warning might still be in the back of her head. And as an unfortunate thought, as both of them are highly leveled adventuring priests a custody battle could very likely be to the death if they don't de-escalate now. And I would likely bet in a straight fight that Hilgya would win, mostly through using tactics favored by Loki. Also, She already proved willing to murder him, and we know Durkon would never stoop to her level.

This strip makes me think that Kudzu is going to get the best he can from the two of them, rather than just be a pawn to make the other suffer. I know in my divorce, my main worry was whether or not I would get to retain custody of my son. But, my ex surprised me and asked for 50% custody. So I mostly just got reminded that I get my son a very reasonable amount of time.

@tigerusthegreat - Yeah... They aren't going to be spending more than the bare minimum amount of time required by Kudzu together ever in the future. You don't marry the creepy stalker who tried to murdered you. Terrible/forced marriages are really bad for kids.

[Malloon]

Alright, [serious time]

This ended about as well as could be hoped for. Neither Hilgya or Durkon like each other, but they care for Kudzu. I doubt they'll ever truely be able to bury the hatchet, but they'll try for him. As such, he will eventually notice how his parents dislike each other, which will hurt and probably inform the person who he becomes, though not so much as if they were actively gunning for each other.

All in all, I can see the kid becoming True Neutral just to stay on good terms with both of his parents, though obviously him becoming Good or Evil makes for a more dramatic storytelling, should the Giant ever think about writing a sequel.

Of course, Hilgya might really screw the pooch and damage him like narcisistic parents tend to do in real life, in which case being on good terms with her is rather not an option. I hope not, and since being Evil is not the same as having a trait from the dark triad of personality disorders, I'd say it's definitely possible she can be a good, if Chaotic Evil parent. If she does, though, the ball's up in the air regarding what alignment he'll have. I'll not speculate on this possibility further, since while it doesn't break any of the rules regarding inappropriate topics, it makes me really sad.

[/serious time]

Can I just say how fabulous Durkon looks in his armour? I didn't notice before, but the zoom in panel 5 really shows off the detail he's gotten since the first page.

[danielxcutter]

Much daaawwww.

[happycrow]

Durkon - paying attention to the important things.

[KorvinStarmast]

not happy about that. hilgya is dangerous, she will ruin kudzu, and she will ruin durkon if durkon stays close to her.
{snip}
I've had to deal with enough hilgyas that I can't be happy about anything non-bad happening to her. Fortunately, we are discussing a comic strip/graphic novel, not real life.
I think that Peelee has made a wise estimation: this strip is the wrap up of this book's Durkon/Hilgya piece.

Durkon will head back to the Mechane knowing that he has to save the world to save his son. That's extra motivation beyond his original commitment to the mission.
If that means he also saves someone who has some less than admirable attitudes, that's a small price to pay for (1) saving the world and (2) saving his son. As he said in the strip, they can work it out between each other or go to the Grand Arbiter.

(Huh, I hope they aren't playing Starcraft, I seem to recall the Arbiter as being a hard to deal with unit ... been a while)

[OverdrivePrime]

/sniff
That was delightful. More than any other story, the heroes of the Order of the Stick keep making me proud of them. :smallsmile:

[Lheticus]

Dangit, I got something in my eye here. :')

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, I’m not happy about Hilgya retaining custody of Kudzu, but he will be safer with her than with Durkon. I just hope she doesn’t take him along for her next vendetta quest.

This does nicely answer my question from earlier—I’m guessing that this will probably be the last we see of Hilgya until the end. Hopefully the dwarves justice system will have a good way for them to work our equitable custody.

I love the banter of the penultimate panel, and, of course, that last panel is beautiful.

To me this feels like pretty much a close to the chapter. My guess (likely wrong, as always) is that we’re going to have maybe some good cliffhangers and then the book will close out.

[kiapet]

I'm actually really happy to have a story where two parents who are of completely incompatible temperament/morality learn to develop a good co-parenting relationship for the sake of their son. It's something that happens all the time in real life, but you don't see much in fiction.

Also, Kudzu is going to be one strange kid. Happy, but strange :smallbiggrin:

[Gluteus_Maximus]

This feels a lot more wholesome to me than some others are saying. I detect a modicum of hope that Durkon does come back.

I'm fairly certain Loki's extreme ideology alone won't "ruin" Kudzu, and LG Durkon in his life definitely won't entirely "make him better," but there's good and bad influences in both.

[ripple]

Cute. Touching. Beautifully done. Loved it.


Agreed on all points. I just hope (as others have expressed) that this really does show Hilgya isn't going to be one-dimensional "hate my baby-daddy".
It sure looks positive on the face of it.



Father: Lawful Good Cleric of Thor
Mother: Chaotic Evil Cleric of Loki
Kudzu: True Neutral Druid, of course. He'll grow to know the extremes in alignment, and learn to reconcile them both, and will extend that even further to make peace with dwarves' most ancient and hated enemy: the trees. If his name isn't a clue, nothing more can be.

As someone who spent a lot of time in the American South while growing up...kudzu the vine covers the trees, strangles them, and cuts off their sunlight. Not exactly "making peace".
I'm hoping KudzuTheChild finds another line of work than living up to his namesake...

[littlebum2002]

As someone who spent a lot of time in the American South while growing up...kudzu the vine covers the trees, strangles them, and cuts off their sunlight. Not exactly "making peace".
I'm hoping KudzuTheChild finds another line of work than living up to his namesake...

That's just because Kudzu is an invasive species here. In Japan it's just another vine.

[skim172]

Well said.

Creepy stalker who tried to murder their ex for rejecting them is cute, so it's OK!

Eh, death somehow becomes less impactful in a world where resurrection is possible, controllable, and quite widespread. With her wealth and cleric abilities, Hilgya could've easily killed and then resurrected Durkon. I mean, she did.

Sidenote, I wonder how a legal system would deal with a murderer who subsequently resurrects her victim.

It's tough to judge a fantasy world by our frame of reference, when fundamental aspects of the universe are different. For example, dwarves know for certain that their gods exist, they interact with them regularly, have a fully formed understanding of their afterlife, and the stipulations that need to be met - leading to a society in which dying on the field of battle is not only viewed positively, but also is the only way they can avoid going to literal hell, which they know for sure exists.

I mean, that changes some things about a society, right? For instance, world peace would be the worst possible thing for the dwarves. If goblinoids didn't exist to provide a constant foe, the dwarves would likely become the world's major antagonists and the greatest threat to the Stick-world's stability, as they would be constantly provoking wars solely for the purpose of dying in them. Redcloak creating a stable, goblinoid nation that lived at peace with the other races poses an existential danger to the dwarves' eternal souls.

[Squire Doodad]

Help I had an emotion :D

I'm glad to see that while it is by no means a "everything is fixed, because PLOT!", there is room enough for Hilgya and Durkon to resolve what's happened. I don't know if the ending would be they get together, or if they stay apart, but the fact that the door isn't shut feels really meaningful.


leading to a society in which dying on the field of battle is not only viewed positively, but also is the only way they can avoid going to literal hell, which they know for sure exists.

Minor nitpick: dying in battle isn't the only way for Dwarves to avoid Hel (nor is it a surefire escape if they are Evil), it's just a general catch-all that is applicable to everyone. Someone who dies trying to save people from a mine and gets killed by gases, for one thing, would be fine.
You are right, I'm just pointing out that the definition is a little broader.

[Evil DM Mark3]

gwoo!

That is all.

[littlebum2002]

Eh, death somehow becomes less impactful in a world where resurrection is possible, controllable, and quite widespread. With her wealth and cleric abilities, Hilgya could've easily killed and then resurrected Durkon. I mean, she did.

As she correctly pointed out, her murdering him was much more easily rectified than him rejecting her. You can't fix heartbreak with a cleric spell.


Sidenote, I wonder how a legal system would deal with a murderer who subsequently resurrects her victim.

Probably like battery, but including financial compensation for the lost level.

[gerryq]

Alright, [serious time]
I'd say it's definitely possible she can be a good, if Chaotic Evil parent.

IF indeed that is possible! And I guess it probably is, given that we are in DnD Land - Rich's world is not intended to accurately simulate the real world, even if it has echoes at times.

One thing I have noticed, though, is that evil characters with more than a walk-on part tend to be Lawful Evil. And that makes a lot of sense; at least you can work with those guys, even if you have to watch your back. Tarquin will stab you without a twinge of remorse, but he won't stab you randomly against his own interests.

Chaotic Evil, on the other hand... well, taken to extremes it would be pure insanity, and Hilgya obviously does not go to those extremes.

Real people don't operate 100% in any quadrant; Hilgya is real enough that she will likely find some chaotic goodness in herself where Kudzu is concerned.

[MossyMeow]

That's just because Kudzu is an invasive species here. In Japan it's just another vine.

:miko:: What is this 'Japan' you speak of?

So...Kudzu will become an Azurite? Oh wait, he can't legally be a citizen because he doesn't have human blood...or DOES HE? No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't. Either way, he's still cute.

[skim172]

Minor nitpick: dying in battle isn't the only way for Dwarves to avoid Hel (nor is it a surefire escape if they are Evil), it's just a general catch-all that is applicable to everyone. Someone who dies trying to save people from a mine and gets killed by gases, for one thing, would be fine.
You are right, I'm just pointing out that the definition is a little broader.

A good point. So one potential peaceful solution to the dwarven problem would be to make sure there were enough dangerous, hazardous jobs for all dwarves that pose many opportunities to be killed while rescuing others.

We could set up a Bizarro OSHA, which seeks to make sure all dwarven businesses are compliant in making their workplaces as unsafe and unhealthy as possible. :smallbiggrin:

[Squire Doodad]

A good point. So one potential peaceful solution to the dwarven problem would be to make sure there were enough dangerous, hazardous jobs for all dwarves that pose many opportunities to be killed while rescuing others.

We could set up a Bizarro OSHA, which seeks to make sure all dwarven businesses are compliant in making their workplaces as unsafe and unhealthy as possible. :smallbiggrin:

"Sir, I'm afraid we will need to reject your application"
"But I filled out all the forms!"
"Yes, but your desired specs doesn't leave enough room for a fire alarm and a trio of automated swinging blades."

[Peelee]

As she correctly pointed out, her murdering him was much more easily rectified than him rejecting her. You can't fix heartbreak with a cleric spell.

Incorrectly. He got brought back to life, but still had to deal with the emotional weight of being murdered. Which, like heartbreak, can't be fixed with a cleric spell.

That she didn't care about his feelings and only cared about hers was, well, pretty expected.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well then. Hopefully this isn't the narrative equivalent of the guy with a family photo who goes to war and promptly dies.

Somehow, I think that Mr. Giant has shown himself to have enough of a predilection for subverting or averting such cliches that that's not what will end up happening. Then again, he does love the convention of the unspoken-on-screen plan being the only kind that ever succeeds.

Seems to me that it's just a way of ratcheting up the tension for the final showdown. Or possibly Hilgya will go through enough character development that she'll show up to help save the world anyways (or get grudgingly ordered there by Loki).

[D.One]

Incorrectly. He got brought back to life, but still had to deal with the emotional weight of being murdered. Which, like heartbreak, can't be fixed with a cleric spell.

That she didn't care about his feelings and only cared about hers was, well, pretty expected.

I'm pretty confident that, since insanity can be cured with an appropriate spell, a dedicated cleric could develop a spell to ease one's emotional pain. It's just that most people won't think playing with Jungen Mindhealer, Cleric of Freud, is that great of an adventure. :smalltongue:

[Tundar]

I'd say mr. Burlew has done it again. Making my utterly baffled with his talent for telling stories.
Now excuse me, I've got something in my eye.

[AJ the Ronin]

It is incredible that what, 15 years ago, look like a throw away dwarf porn joke (OotS 82) ended up with a punch-line that brings all the feels.

[Spanish_Paladin]

So cute, Hylgya almost looks like a decent person..

* The paladin stands in front of a mirror and says: The Weirdo, the Weirdo, The Weirdo* xD

[Bobb]

No.

You don't get to flame strike your ex and then pretend to be a rational person.

Quickly resolved though. Glad the Giant's misstep can be glossed over now in favor of the overarching story.

[LoRdofCookIES]

As I notice the panels more and more, I get the feeling they are being watched.

There are shadows of flames in every panel and the background seems to be kinda greyed out.
Its more obvious in the last panel.

Who do you guys think watches them? Hel? the Archfiends? Someone else?

[kiapet]

Sidenote, I wonder how a legal system would deal with a murderer who subsequently resurrects her victim.

I'd imagine it would be a form of assault. She basically inflicted a very painful (for him) and costly (for her) form of level drain.

[Peelee]

As I notice the panels more and more, I get the feeling they are being watched.

There are shadows of flames in every panel and the background seems to be kinda greyed out.
Its more obvious in the last panel.

Who do you guys think watches them? Hel? the Archfiends? Someone else?

That's not shadows of flames, that's texture being shown through art. I don't know why the last panel looks filtered, but at a guess I'd say it's to help give the impression of distance.

In any event, I got 5 gold on them not being watched remotely.

[Jasdoif]

That's not shadows of flames, that's texture being shown through art. I don't know why the last panel looks filtered, but at a guess I'd say it's to help give the impression of distance."Background has less contrast than foreground" has been in place for quite a while (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html).

[Schroeswald]

IF indeed that is possible! And I guess it probably is, given that we are in DnD Land - Rich's world is not intended to accurately simulate the real world, even if it has echoes at times.

One thing I have noticed, though, is that evil characters with more than a walk-on part tend to be Lawful Evil. And that makes a lot of sense; at least you can work with those guys, even if you have to watch your back. Tarquin will stab you without a twinge of remorse, but he won't stab you randomly against his own interests.

Chaotic Evil, on the other hand... well, taken to extremes it would be pure insanity, and Hilgya obviously does not go to those extremes.

Real people don't operate 100% in any quadrant; Hilgya is real enough that she will likely find some chaotic goodness in herself where Kudzu is concerned.
Let’s look at the Chaotic and Lawful Evil Characters we have to see if that fits. First off we have Belkar, a psychopath who is also one of the main characters and thus is worked with. Next we get Xykon and Redcloak, where Redcloak is more trustworthy than Xykon, but is also just less Evil, and neither of them are insane. Now is for the corner Linear Guilders, Sabine who is Chaotic has been nothing but loyal to whoever her boss is and has helped the Order before, the (possibly) LE Nale who is the least trustworthy person ever, the just really really dumb Thog, who has also worked with Elan before, then Hilgya who has worked with the Order more often than against. Then it’s Kubota, who has never worked with any protagonist or even tried to. Now finally we get to some characters who sort of support your point, Qarr, Tarquin, Malack and Greg, all of whom have been somewhat worked with (though Greg only worked with the good guys while pretending to be someone who is Good), but Tarquin is the character closest to insanity of anyone.

[Peelee]

"Background has less contrast than foreground" has been in place for quite a while (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html).

Ooo, look at you with your fancy perfectly functional eyes. Brag about it some more, why dontchya?:smalltongue:

For reals, though, thanks.

[Particle_Man]

I would surmise that if Durkon is not overly bothered about being murdered by Hilgya there is no reason for us to be. Heck if it were not for the Big Mission it would count as dying honourably!

Glad the parents are working things out for the benefit of Kudzu. Maybe Sigdi will get some grandma time out of the deal too.

Makes sense though that they can make things work for the kid’s benefit. They are clerics. That means their wisdom is pretty high.

[BlueHydra]

The last panel seems ominous to me. I wonder who is watching them from outside the doorway. That last stray vampire?

[Jasdoif]

Ooo, look at you with your fancy perfectly functional eyes. Brag about it some more, why dontchya?:smalltongue:Twenty-five years of diabetes have somewhat falsified the "perfectly" part :smalltongue:

Anyway, it's much more apparent with the large rooms in the temple of Thor. I mean, look at the first panel of 1097 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1097.html), then imagine all the edges on the benches and the door and the doorway were solid black. It'd be a mess....

[Peelee]

Twenty-five years of diabetes have somewhat falsified the "perfectly" part :smalltongue:

Anyway, it's much more apparent with the large rooms in the temple of Thor. I mean, look at the first panel of 1097 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1097.html), then imagine all the edges on the benches and the door and the doorway were solid black. It'd be a mess....

Actually as soon as you pointed it out, it's super easy to see in almost any panel, as the black outlines are noticeably faded. Even in the current comic, the banner behind Durkon and the table behind Hilgya have less black outlines than Durkon and Hilgya do. Easy peasy.

[Lkctgo]

This scene makes me feel like Durkon is marked for death (true death this time). On the other hand, it'll be a copout if Mama-Kudzu resurrects him if he dies valiantly in the fight against Xykon. So i'm hoping he either gets Snarl-wrecked or stays alive.

[Elenna]

They'll be okay, I think.

<3

[hroþila]

The last panel seems ominous to me. I wonder who is watching them from outside the doorway. That last stray vampire?
I thought it was the equivalent of the camera panning out at the end of the opening credits for Family Matters, and it doesn't get any less ominous than that despite the series' Urkelian derailment.

[Dion]

This would be a good strip to end the book. It’s a great complement to the first strip, which was a young Durkon and his mother.

[gatemansgc]

huh, i logged out for some reason.

but wow i was not expecting such an adorable comic this week! i wonder how many we have left?

[Rogar Demonblud]

About five pages now.

[Peelee]

I thought it was the equivalent of the camera panning out at the end of the opening credits for Family Matters, and it doesn't get any less ominous than that despite the series' Urkelian derailment.

Note to self, use the word "Urkelian" much more frequently.

[gatemansgc]

This would be a good strip to end the book. It’s a great complement to the first strip, which was a young Durkon and his mother.

the last strip will probably be OOTS boarding the airship and showing it flying off in the distance before the typical month or so hiatus at the end of each book. but i agree this is an excellent bookend.

[SlashDash]

I think it's odd that so many people assume this means Durkon will die.

I say it's the exact opposite.

It's a given family photo that we really should have at this point to wrap up that particular point of where things stand between Hilga and Durkon.

And explain of course why Hilga doesn't join the battle with the rest of the party.

She won't serve anything in the narrative since we're getting Minrah and being a high level character she'll steal the thunder from the party. She's better left out.





Either way, this means that maybe they'll work it out as a family after all or possibly just stay friendly later on.

I think Hilga served her purpose. Unless Loki will switch sides, there isn't a reason for her to appear anymore.

I don't see a chance in hell of Durkon dying permanently here. He is the one tasked with getting Redcloak to switch sides.

The only one expected to die in the final conflict is the sexy shoeless god of war.

[Hawkeye]

D'awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :smallredface:

[Jasdoif]

Note to self, use the word "Urkelian" much more frequently.Did you do that?

[NobleCuriosity]

Note to self, use the word "Urkelian" much more frequently.

What does that word mean? When I look it up on my phone all I find are references to a font.

[jwhouk]

D'awwwwwwww...

This, of course, answers all those questions about Hilgya.

[Particle_Man]

I was thinking of the strip when dropping off my daughter at daycare. Sniff sniff.

[Jasdoif]

I thought it was the equivalent of the camera panning out at the end of the opening credits for Family Matters, and it doesn't get any less ominous than that despite the series' Urkelian derailment.Note to self, use the word "Urkelian" much more frequently.What does that word mean? When I look it up on my phone all I find is references to a font.hroþila is referring to the Family Matters character Steve Urkel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Urkel), who was initially only going to be in the pilot episode but proved so popular he became a series regular...and later seasons kind of distorted the entire premise of the show to try keep his popularity...I think "fresh" was still the word at the time?

[mneme]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwvwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:biggrin:

Now that was just adorable.

YUP.

This.

Also, adults be acting like adults. Nice to see.

[Particle_Man]

On the other hand Urkel was described by the actor playing the dad as important because he was the first black “nerd” in popular consciousness which helped to expand roles for African American actors. It might have laid some groundwork for a similar role in shows like Community, come to think of it.

[Schroeswald]

I agree that Durkon isn’t dying anytime soon, he now has a family who loves him, a happy ending there, and a child, he was never all that likely to die but he’s probably less likely.

[Peelee]

the last strip will probably be OOTS boarding the airship and showing it flying off in the distance before the typical month or so hiatus at the end of each book.

5 gold on the last strip being Xykon and Redcloak at the last Gate.

[redzimmer]

5 gold on the last strip being Xykon and Redcloak at the last Gate.

With a dead Lien and O-Chul and a flashback for the next arc’s first strip.

[Peelee]

With a dead Lien and O-Chul and a flashback for the next arc’s first strip.

You can't kill rock and roll O-Chul.

[HalfTangible]

As someone who spent a lot of time in the American South while growing up...kudzu the vine covers the trees, strangles them, and cuts off their sunlight. Not exactly "making peace".
I'm hoping KudzuTheChild finds another line of work than living up to his namesake...

Nature is not just one biome. While the archetypal druid is one who lives in forests, cares for plants, communes with trees and such, they can also frequent other natural environments. Deserts, oceans, mountains...

[Peelee]

Nature is not just one biome. While the archetypal druid is one who lives in forests, cares for plants, communes with trees and such, they can also frequent other natural environments. Deserts, oceans, mountains...

Aye, I once played a dwarf druid who was all about rocks and geology.

[bunsen_h]

The last panel was sweet. Panels 2 and 11 indicate that Kudzu has an inherent positive reaction to Durkon. That's neat.

It goes beyond that. In general, when he's turned towards Durkon, he's happy; when he's turned away, he's sad.

I'm glad that Durkon and Hilgya are being reasonably civilized about the situation, and that she's acknowledging that he has a valid connection with Kudzu. From my own experience, it would be best for Kudzu if his parents had very little contact with each other; they're just too far apart in their points of view. A home full of friction and resentment is far worse than time split between two homes. "Right, I'll drop 'im off wi' ye next Odinsday. Where'll ye be?"

I've been wincing, just a bit, at the preceding messages about how a child needs a father figure. Two parents are better than one; some diversity among the parents provides a broader intellectual development and better support. But it doesn't have to be just two, and neither/none has to be male.

[Schroeswald]

5 gold on the last strip being Xykon and Redcloak at the last Gate.
I’ll take that bet (though the dude you’re responding to is also wrong)

With a dead Lien and O-Chul and a flashback for the next arc’s first strip.
You can’t be serious, I’ll bet 1000 gold that doesn’t happen.

[Jasdoif]

With a dead Lien and O-Chul and a flashback for the next arc’s first strip.You can't kill rock and roll O-Chul.More importantly, it would a waste to put Lien in a fridge.

[mhensley]

Umm is there any connotation to the last panel being slightly grayed? As if it’s being seen through a scrying orb or something
And no mention of Hilgya encountering Curly.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. It's been far too long since we've seen what Xykon is up to. Him or Red Cloak spying on them would make a good segue.

[Ornithologist]

I've been wincing, just a bit, at the preceding messages about how a child needs a father figure. Two parents are better than one; some diversity among the parents provides a broader intellectual development and better support. But it doesn't have to be just two, and neither/none has to be male.

I definitely agree on that point in a wider context of raising a family. Though since we are talking about a specific cisgendered divorce... I think specifying that Kudzu gets a father figure as a good thing is fine. Also, hopefully Kudzu spends a ton of time with his Thundershield family while Durkon is away. They can really show him that a family is based off of who you keep in your life, more than who you are related to.

[Ruck]

One thing I have noticed, though, is that evil characters with more than a walk-on part tend to be Lawful Evil.
Is that right? Who, other than Tarquin and Redcloak? Kubota, if he counts as "more than a walk-on part"?


And that makes a lot of sense; at least you can work with those guys, even if you have to watch your back. Tarquin will stab you without a twinge of remorse, but he won't stab you randomly against his own interests.
Enor and Gannji might beg to differ.


Real people don't operate 100% in any quadrant; Hilgya is real enough that she will likely find some chaotic goodness in herself where Kudzu is concerned.
The alignment system is generally insufficient for describing real behavior, but I think it's more accurate to say that the same alignment can be expressed a number of different ways. (And caring for family isn't particularly Good; even Evil people have friends and family. Good means caring about people beyond those you have a personal relationship with.)


With a dead Lien and O-Chul and a flashback for the next arc’s first strip.


More importantly, it would a waste to put Lien in a fridge.

I really dislike the idea of killing two such characters off-panel, but I'm also not sure this meets the traditional definition of fridging. (What love interest of Lien's is being motivated by her death in this narrative?)

[Dion]

(What love interest of Lien's is being motivated by her death in this narrative?)

Ummm... hello? Minrah? There have been soooo many hints. Are we even reading the same comic?

[Jasdoif]

I really dislike the idea of killing two such characters off-panel, but I'm also not sure this meets the traditional definition of fridging. (What love interest of Lien's is being motivated by her death in this narrative?)They're currently exposed to the frigid climate; it's not a traditional fridge, either :smalltongue: (I'm pretty sure the term's scope has expanded, too...Even then it does, admittedly, depend a fair bit on whether "dead Lien and O-Chul" is meant to apply "dead" to O-Chul as well as Lien.)

[Rrmcklin]

I think this is the best resolution to the Hilgya-Kudzu-Durkon plot thread that I could have wanted. And it doesn't hurt that my little guy is roughly the same point in development. Hits me all the harder, I says!


She doesn't deserve custody because of the way she named him? That doesn't strike you as a Miko-esque gross overreaction?

Also, she raised Durkon. He got better. How do you want the Order to deal with her, kill her and raise her? Strictly an eye for an eye? They're not judge, jury, and executioner. They're not meting out justice for every transgression they see. They have a mission, and that's what they're focused on. Hilgya can get her comeuppance in the afterlife, there's no reason for the Order to have to address every wrong they come across.

I feel the need to bring up that when I specifically brought up the idea that while Hilgya is a unfit parent, I expected some resolution like this, you repeatedly made statements implying you also assumed some "comeuppance" for Hilgya, just like the person you were disagreeing with with this post.

Now, maybe your opinion on the subject has changed in the interim, but you phrasing your reply to something like this strikes me as very... almost hypocritical.

Anyway, my feelings on Hilgya as a parent hasn't changed (i.e. she shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Kudzu's life) but as I stated before I figured something like this was bound to happen, so I guess this is the best way to pull of a resolution I didn't want that could be asked for.

Though I still have to side-eye the people going "Durkon came back, so her killing him isn't a big deal".

[Frozenstep]

To everyone talking about the shading in the last panel, I'm pretty sure it's similar to the second panel of 1165. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1161.html) It's just to show distance.

If anything, I think redcloak would scry on Roy.

Anyway, this outcome is, dare I say it, good. Yeah, Hilgya is definitely not a good person, but once she got her vengeance out of her system she's at least acting like a reasonable adult with an interest in raising her child right. I would have been worried if she was still like she was before, talking down Durkon and jumping to conclusions that fit her grudge would have been very damaging to a child growing up. But now it's at a level where she doesn't even contest Durkon wanting to be part of their child's life, and even offers to let Durkon hold him (without even being prompted by anything).

Having a mother who is willing to go to extreme lengths to damage people that have hurt her (while still being considerate enough to not do it in a way that could harm her son) isn't ideal, but that being balanced by being connected to all the good in Durkon's family (she's planning to stay there. Surely Sidgi is going to invite her over to those parties), and I think the child will be alright.

[PontificatusRex]

Okay, I'm a dad and my heart is melting. Memories from what seem so long ago.

[PontificatusRex]

Though I still have to side-eye the people going "Durkon came back, so her killing him isn't a big deal".

Durkon's MOM didn't think it was that big a deal.

[Dion]

Durkon's MOM didn't think it was that big a deal.

When Durkon’s mom said she would end Hilgya if she did it again, I don’t think she meant she would stop sending her Thorsday cards.

[Peelee]

I feel the need to bring up that when I specifically brought up the idea that while Hilgya is a unfit parent, I expected some resolution like this, you repeatedly made statements implying you also assumed some "comeuppance for Hilgya, just like the person you were disagreeing with with this post.

Now, maybe your opinion on the subject has changed in the interim, but you phrasing your reply to something like this strikes me as very... almost hypocritical.

That's totally understandable. I do still think Hilgya will get comeuppance, I'm just fine with the Order not being the ones to mete it out. Worse comes to worst, I'm sure she'll get hers in the afterlife.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She'll either end up in Helheim or in Loki's hall. One isn't much into specific comeuppances, and the other would be her due as a cleric.

[MossyMeow]

So cute, Hylgya almost looks like a decent person..

* The paladin stands in front of a mirror and says: The Weirdo, the Weirdo, The Weirdo* xD

So, Summon Weirdo X?

[Peelee]

She'll either end up in Helheim or in Loki's hall. One isn't much into specific comeuppances, and the other would be her due as a cleric.

Hel, not Helheim. This isn't the MCU. And even if she escapes Hel, she'll go to the plane that matches her alignment, so the Abyss.

Also, dwarves that don't deserve to go to Hel going there anyway doesn't take away from the dwarves who do deserve to go there, IMO.

[littlebum2002]

:miko:: What is this 'Japan' you speak of?



Thats a good point. Who knows how kudzu behaves in the stickverse? It could be an invasive vine, or it could be a flowering tree for all we know. That kinda reminds me of this:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/etymology.png


Incorrectly. He got brought back to life, but still had to deal with the emotional weight of being murdered. Which, like heartbreak, can't be fixed with a cleric spell.

That she didn't care about his feelings and only cared about hers was, well, pretty expected.

That is also true, but in her defense, Durkon wasn't really thinking about her either when he proposed to her. I mean even a modicum of empathy would tell you that someone that you really, really hurt and then didn't talk to for a year wouldn't want anything to do with you, much less marry you. So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

[Schroeswald]

So, Summon Weirdo X?

No, that was Summon Weirdo III, Spanish Paladin doesn’t have enough Cleric levels for Summon Weirdo X

[HalfTangible]

Durkon's MOM didn't think it was that big a deal.

She threatened to end Hilgya if she put so much as put a scratch on Durkon ever again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1153.html)

Just because she didn't bring up the issue immediately upon learning of it doesn't mean she didn't care. And like she said, Hilgya did fix the problem immediately after.

[Peelee]

That is also true, but in her defense, Durkon wasn't really thinking about her either when he proposed to her. I mean even a modicum of empathy would tell you that someone that you really, really hurt and then didn't talk to for a year wouldn't want anything to do with you, much less marry you. So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

A feat that could also be accomplished by talking to him.

[Schroeswald]

A feat that could also be accomplished by talking to him.

The best way to communicate displeasure with someone is to kill them and revive them.

[Rrmcklin]

Thats a good point. Who knows how kudzu behaves in the stickverse? It could be an invasive vine, or it could be a flowering tree for all we know. That kinda reminds me of this:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/etymology.png



That is also true, but in her defense, Durkon wasn't really thinking about her either when he proposed to her. I mean even a modicum of empathy would tell you that someone that you really, really hurt and then didn't talk to for a year wouldn't want anything to do with you, much less marry you. So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

I'll give you a compromise: It was 10% Durkon's fault, and 90% Hilgya's. There, that doesn't put all the blame on her, but acknowledge she was by far and inargualbly the worst participant of that little exchange, and no amount of going "he was insensitive" changes that.

[Dion]

So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

Sure, if you ask any therapist, they’ll tell you that inflicting major physical harm on someone is the best way to improve their empathy for you.

This is a standard staple of new parenting classes.

[Riftwolf]

Good to see Durkon being a good dad and trying to do right with the imperfect situation he's in (and not making grand sweeping gestures to wallpaper over the cracks). Hopefully now they've both got their LG/CE thickheadedness out of their systems and can work on the compromise.

[littlebum2002]

Sure, if you ask any therapist, they’ll tell you that inflicting major physical harm on someone is the best way to improve their empathy for you.

This is a standard staple of new parenting classes.

I mean i wouldn't say it was the best way, but it would be pretty hard to argue that it didn't send the message of "I want nothing to do with you" loud and clear.

[bravelove]

I see everyone’s being on about Hilgya not losing custody? May I remind you all what she did to the last clan of dwarves that crossed her? Hilgya would 100% murder anyone who tries to take her child, it’s plain dangerous for everyone to even try ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody, also about then name if anything a plant that kills trees sounds like a very dwarven name, they don’t hate plants in general they hate trees specifically, so a plant that kills trees would likely be seen as a good thing

TLDR; Kudzu is a very good dwarf name because it’s about a thing that murders trees, would you risk Hilgya’s motherly rage to try and take him because I wouldn’t I like me and my family living, and bad person does not always mean bad parent

[Dion]

I mean i wouldn't say it was the best way, but it would be pretty hard to argue that it didn't send the message of "I want nothing to do with you" loud and clear.

Sure. And a drive by shooting is an effective way to tell someone to stop inviting you to dinner.

Or is it?

Durkon is the only character in the strip that thinks, “wow, this person killed me. I wonder what it was about my behavior that contributed to that.”

For everyone else, when someone gets hurt they either stay dead or they come back for revenge. They don’t sit around and consider the life choices that led to them getting killed. They kill back. When you take someone out in OotS-verse, you best not miss.

[KorvinStarmast]

The best way to communicate displeasure with someone is to kill them and revive them. I don't know why this post struck me this way, but I was sipping coffee as I read that and some came out through my nose.

Well done.

(I keep a roll of paper towels by my desk to prepare for such calamities as this)

[Bobb]

Holy expletive.

"Don't try to separate Durkon's kid from his mother because she will probably murder a bunch of people when she hears about.

Besides, everything will probably be fine."

[Bobb]

ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody, also about then name if anything a plant that kills trees sounds like a very dwarven name, they don’t hate plants in general they hate trees specifically, so a plant that kills trees would likely be seen as a good thing

TLDR; Kudzu is a very good dwarf name because it’s about a thing that murders trees, would you risk Hilgya’s motherly rage to try and take him because I wouldn’t I like me and my family living, and bad person does not always mean bad parent

She needlessly exposed her kid to battle.

She handed her son to a vampire to be used as a meat shield.

If she doesn't turn on kudzu when he crosses her she will mould him into herself.

[Themrys]

ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody,

This.

Taking away a woman's baby because you deem her immoral ... hmmmm ... where have we seen this before? Do people here really, really think that is a morally justifiable thing to do?

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

She's a good mother to Kudzu, so there's no justification for taking him away from her. End of story.


Also, it is kind of hilarious that people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya. Either we are civilized people who disapprove of individuals using violence against each other to resolve conflicts, or we aren't.
Just because you don't like Hilgya but like Sigdi doesn't change one bit about the rightness or wrongness of their (planned) actions. If you expect Hilgya to rely on the law to avenge herself, you have to expect the same of Sigdi.

Sure, Hilgya overreacted massively, but she would have been very much well within her rights to tell Durkon that Kudzu was fathered by her husband and continue on her merry way without helping the OotS in their quest.
That's what would have been her right to do. And I bet, had she done it, some people would still complain about her.

[hroþila]

She handed her son to a vampire to be used as a meat shield.
While dominated.

[Sindeloke]

Holy expletive.

"Don't try to separate Durkon's kid from his mother because she will probably murder a bunch of people when she hears about.

Besides, everything will probably be fine."

Lol, right?

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

Like, sincerely. This woman was so fixated on hurting someone else that she brought her child into a position where he, 100% predictably, was used as a living shield by a horrific evil. It wasn't even about him, his safety was just a lower priority to her than her need to commit violence/completely control Kudzu's life, influences and environment. That's how she treats him when he's not causing conflict. When he himself is the one causing her emotional distress, what then?

I mean "okay Durkon, we can share custody" may seem tolerable to her now in theory, now that this particular current fit of rage is over, but what happens when Kudzu comes home from daddy's house with a little stuffed hammer going "for! for! pwaise for!" and the reality of it actually hits her?


Taking away a woman's baby because you deem her immoral ... hmmmm ... where have we seen this before?

Uh... every civilized divorce court system in the world? Though "immoral" is definitely a buzzword here, "unfit" or "dangerous to her child" are much more accurate and honest to the argument.

[Dion]

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

I don’t understand this statement. First, Hilgya is a fictional character in a story. Nobody is a bad person because they want a conflict in the story to be resolved in a way differently than you do.

Second, even outside of stories, disagreements about the best moral choices don’t make either side into bad people or good people. We disagree about what is best. That doesn’t make me a bad person, and it doesn’t make you a bad person. That kind of black and white absolutism is both silly and a useless way to resolve real disagreements.

[Anansiil]

Biological Clock starts ticking louder...
:P

[HalfTangible]

Lol, right?

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

1) Murdered and immediately revived.
2) Simple. Durkon stomped all over her heart like rabid dire bear right after they had sex and tried to marry her immediately after they met up again for the first time in... a yearish? That's a different beast than a teen emo phase.
3) Love for your child is a very different thing than love for someone you ****ed once.

The two statements you gave are not contradictory at all.


Like, sincerely. This woman was so fixated on hurting someone else that she brought her child into a position where he, 100% predictably, was used as a living shield by a horrific evil. It wasn't even about him, his safety was just a lower priority to her than her need to commit violence/completely control Kudzu's life, influences and environment. That's how she treats him when he's not causing conflict. When he himself is the one causing her emotional distress, what then?

Like Hilgya said, the safest place for that child to be was right next to the high-level cleric and the Order absolutely needed her firepower (no pun intended). The fact that it didn't work out that way does not change the logic of her argument.

Also, she sought retribution against Durkon for breaking her heart. This is NOT the same thing as trying to control her child's entire life, influences and environment. Hilgya is not a good person and you don't need to twist her motives into something they're not in order to show it.

[Themrys]

Uh... every civilized divorce court system in the world? Though "immoral" is definitely a buzzword here, "unfit" or "dangerous to her child" are much more accurate and honest to the argument.

She is not dangerous to her child. "Handed him to a vampire while dominated by said vampire" doesn't count. Nor does "kept him with her while going into a situation she considered reasonably safe for herself" count. Do you also want to take away the babies of women who put them in cars? Car accidents kill lots of people, you know?

Also, you have apparently forgotten that Durkon isn't married to Hilgya. The only person other than her who has legal rights to her child under the law I know is her ex-husband.

(Besides, have you considered that Tarquin got custody of Nale? Tarquin, that guy who, you know, murders people for entertainment, forces woman to marry him and then presumably rapes them until they die? That Tarquin? The one who also took Nale into battle, by the way? And ultimately murdered him? Or is that different because he is male?)


Let's not forget that Durkon just got Hilgya pregnant and then sent her back to a husband he had just been told was abusive. He's not exactly the father of the year, and certainly hasn't done anything to deserve custody.

[Bobb]

While dominated.

hyyuup. She was dominated. By the vampires she was looking for.

So she could do some cathartic violence to her ex.

[Peelee]

Like Hilgya said, the safest place for that child to be was right next to the high-level cleric

That was true until the second she decided to take him into battle.

[HalfTangible]

(Besides, have you considered that Tarquin got custody of Nale? Tarquin, that guy who, you know, murders people for entertainment, forces woman to marry him and then presumably rapes them until they die? That Tarquin? The one who also took Nale into battle, by the way? And ultimately murdered him?
1) Whatboutism is not an argument.

2) Presenting this question only makes sense if Sindeloke thinks Tarquin was a good father who deserved custody. I do not see any indication that she does.


Or is that different because he is male?)

The insinuation here is hardly necessary. :smallannoyed:


That was true until the second she decided to take him into battle.

Was it?

Because I do not trust a random church, entirely out of spells, run by a 100% opposing diety to take care of a child while the kingdom is being attacked by vampires, many of them high level. If you mean before that, Hilgya does not seem to have a lot of friends she could hand the baby off to.

[bravelove]

hyyuup. She was dominated. By the vampires she was looking for.

So she could do some cathartic violence to her ex.

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

[Peelee]

He's not exactly the father of the year, and certainly hasn't done anything to deserve custody.

Is your position that parents need to deserve custody before they can be granted it?

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

[bravelove]

Is your position that parents need to deserve custody before they can be granted it?


If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

She's a good mother to Kudzu, so there's no justification for taking him away from her. End of story.


Also, it is kind of hilarious that people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya. Either we are civilized people who disapprove of individuals using violence against each other to resolve conflicts, or we aren't.

Just because you don't like Hilgya but like Sigdi doesn't change one bit about the rightness or wrongness of their (planned) actions. If you expect Hilgya to rely on the law to avenge herself, you have to expect the same of Sigdi. OK, I'll get the popcorn going.
I find myself in agreement with this part:
people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya

There are a number of other points that you raise that seem to attract a particular chain of posts so I'll step aside and let others respond.

Sure, Hilgya overreacted massively, but she would have been very much well within her rights to tell Durkon that Kudzu was fathered by her husband and continue on her merry way without helping the OotS in their quest.

That's what would have been her right to do. Yes. She had agency and chose to go along for her own reasons, and due to Loki being anti undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html). It is also worth considering Hilgya's expressed preferences to be seen through the lens of Hilgya looking out through here own eyes at the world ... not to mention that being a Cleric of Loki which tends to take a "what is in it for me" view on most transactions.

[HalfTangible]

If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

Going to another plane is a safe option when the world is about to be blown up. That does not mean they are safe places.

[Bobb]

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

Yes, there were possible decisions she did not make that could have been more egregiously reckless and irresponsible.

Not pursuing her violent revenge while things are dicey didn't enter her mind.

And she doesn't ever appear to be concerned for her child or intimidated by either the vampires or the order (still mad there was zero attempt to even subdue her after her flame strike).

Hilgya is toxic. She quite literally put taking her vengeance above the life of her child. Here is three of Hilgya's objectives in the comic, ranked from highest to lowest:

1. Give Durkon what's coming to him.
2. Protect her child.
3. Save the world.

Really disappointed "Wants her baby not to die" somehow gives her good points.

[Peelee]

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?

3.5 may require a rod, but Stickworld doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html).:smallwink:

Going to another plane is a safe option when the world is about to be blown up. That does not mean they are safe places.

That does not mean there are only unsafe places. Certainly there are plenty of planes, such as the Astral Plane, she could shift to, then shift back to the world later if it was still around, or find other places that were suitable, in lieu of facing a horde of vampires with her baby strapped to her chest.

[Cycleboy]

Nice character growth. Bringing a tear to my eye.....

[BaronOfHell]

Awesome strip! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

[bravelove]

Yes, there were possible decisions she did not make that could have been more egregiously reckless and irresponsible.

Not pursuing her violent revenge while things are dicey didn't enter her mind.

Hilgya is toxic. She quite literally put taking her vengeance above the life of her child. Here is three of Hilgya's objectives in the comic, ranked from highest to lowest:

1. Give Durkon what's coming to him.
2. Protect her child.
3. Save the world.

Really disappointed "Wants her baby not to die" somehow gives her good points.
Man it’s a shame that’s not enough to take her child from her ‘she’s toxic’ is not legal reasoning, has she abused him? has she neglected him? Being a bad person is not enough to lose custody, even with her assault on Durkon, he isn’t pressing charges clearly so that can’t be used, she hasn’t done anything that could legally take her child from her, because morality aside, if there ain’t a LEGAL reason to take him, MORALS do not matter at all, because if there is no legal reasons, then that’s called kidnapping, you can’t take him from her because there’s no legal reason that would allow it, it’s that simple, especially because Hilgya has shown to be pretty ****ing ruthless with lawyers if this did go to some sort of court so it wouldn’t be all that easy to beat her if you did somehow manage to get her into court on child endangerment

Also do you honestly think Durkon would do all that? It’s very clear he wants Hilgya to be a part of this, if he actually thought Kudzu was in danger he’d do something, but he doesn’t, a few jabs aside he wants to help her raise the child, he doesn’t want to take the child from her completely, and that’s pretty important

[Doug Lampert]

Assuming that Hilgya's plan to plane-shift works -
how&how long could someone survive on some other plane ?

I don't think there are farms, settlements etc. waiting out there...

High level cleric.

Seriously. Farms, Create Food and Water. Poof, who needs a farm?

Clerics aren't as good at shelter and clothing (wizards can do those), but both can be managed in the outer planes.

[Puschkin]

It's one of the rare strips that doesn't end with a joke.

[Jasdoif]

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?
3.5 may require a rod, but Stickworld doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html).:smallwink:3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also do you honestly think Durkon would do all that? It’s very clear he wants Hilgya to be a part of this, if he actually thought Kudzu was in danger he’d do something, but he doesn’t, a few jabs aside he wants to help her raise the child, he doesn’t want to take the child from her completely, and that’s pretty important I think I prefer this piece of a Watsonian take more than some Doylist views. If Durkon's Wisdom does not lead him to being worried about the child's being protected, is that not sufficient?

I think one of the objections to that is: Durkon was not there for the entire sequence of Hilgya's take her kid to work/battle day.

My answer is: he was a direct witness from within Durkula's brain to the really dire part - Durkula took advantage of Hilgya doing that and that through domination used the child as a shield versus Roy's thrown sword. Roy chooses not to throw the sword once the baby shield is up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html).

I thus arrive at Durkon having taken that all in, and still feeling the Hilgya will take care of Kudzu.

[bravelove]

3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.

You forgot the focus
Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures

So once again she hadn’t decided on the plane yet so would she have them yet

[Spanish_Paladin]

No, that was Summon Weirdo III, Spanish Paladin doesn’t have enough Cleric levels for Summon Weirdo X

That's right, paladins only gain caster levels every four levels. But that was an special ritual 😁

[Jasdoif]

3.5 doesn't require an expensive rod either, they have no listed price (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) so a standard spell component pouch will contain all of them.You forgot the focusI'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch) aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

[understatement]

The last panel literally gives me movie vibes. Up there with some of the best panels in the entire comic.

So yeah, the end of the Durkon/Hilgya arc. It does feel a little off -- considering she still [I]killed/I] him -- but it's great seeing them both trying to do the best for their child in their own ways.

[bravelove]

I'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch) aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

Okay now we’re getting pedantic because we have no idea if the forks would fit in the pouch or the size of her pouch etc etc, what I’m getting from this is there’s a chance she could have them, and a chance she could not, which means the thought she could plane shift this second is up in the air and not a definite ‘no’ OR ‘yes’

[Squire Doodad]

Okay now we’re getting pedantic because we have no idea if the forks would fit in the pouch or the size of her pouch etc etc, what I’m getting from this is there’s a chance she could have them, and a chance she could not, which means the thought she could plane shift this second is up in the air and not a definite ‘no’ OR ‘yes’


I'm talking about the focus. I assume marketing is why spell component pouches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch) aren't called "spell component and focus pouches".

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

[Sindeloke]

1) Whatboutism is not an argument.

2) Presenting this question only makes sense if Sindeloke thinks Tarquin was a good father who deserved custody. I do not see any indication that she does.

In fact, "Look how Nale turned out" is, IMO, a strong argument in favor of removing Kudzu from Hilgya's custody, which I always consider making when I get drawn into the eternal Hilgya debates.


Because I do not trust a random church, entirely out of spells, run by a 100% opposing diety to take care of a child while the kingdom is being attacked by vampires, many of them high level. If you mean before that, Hilgya does not seem to have a lot of friends she could hand the baby off to.

"These guys aren't mechanically capable of protecting my child from vampires" is a workable but weak argument, since 'dubious protection far from the vampires in a barricaded stronghold' is still probably better than 'strong protection ten feet from the vampires in an active battle' -- but that doesn't really matter because that's not even the argument Hilgya made. She maintains that he's safest with her in an absolute sense, but specifically objects to leaving him with the Thor clergy solely because they're Thor clergy (she doesn't even know there are vampires at that point). When you say "100% opposed deity" you're sort of implying that they're potentially dangerous to Kudzu because they're Hilgya's enemies, but that's not part of Hilgya's thought process, that we can see; she certainly never felt threatened by Durkon, and never considers him a threat to Kudzu in any way, nor should she expect Durkon's Son to be at risk from his fellow congregants. She just doesn't want them getting their Icky Morals on her son, somehow. That would be so much worse than him ending up as a vampire shield.

[bunsen_h]

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

I know a guy whose mother wrote her will so that he would get only 1/3 as much of the estate as his sibs, because he was a rebellious teenager when she wrote the will, and she never amended it in the 35 years between then and her death. She was... well, very self-oriented. She did a lot of harm to her kids, both physical and emotional.

I'm not saying that Hilgya should be denied any custody. The situation is complex. I don't think it's wrong to be concerned, because what little we've observed of her behaviour suggests that she's volatile and self-oriented. If nothing else, we don't want Kudzu to follow her example.



I mean "okay Durkon, we can share custody" may seem tolerable to her now in theory, now that this particular current fit of rage is over, but what happens when Kudzu comes home from daddy's house with a little stuffed hammer going "for! for! pwaise for!" and the reality of it actually hits her?
A real hammer hits her? :smallbiggrin: I don't know if Dwarves give plush tools to their toddlers; small real tools would seem more in character.

[Draconi Redfir]

D'awww, finally getting some time with the kid while not being a vampire!:smallbiggrin:

[Bobb]

Reckless endangerment, bravelove.

That is my argument for removal of custody. Don't know how you're getting lost in the weeds here.

[bravelove]

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matter

[Jasdoif]

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my stateI've heard of it, though there apparently aren't any in my state.

[Squire Doodad]

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matter

It might be a bit ridiculous, but it is probably a huge time saver for DMing.

[Jasdoif]

Personally if we’re going by opinions, I think it’s kinda stupid that a spell component pouch would automatically have literally every focus and component infinitely for every possible spell in them and that it breaks immersion to just Have Everything Ever for any spell in a single pouch? But if that’s what 3.5 says, shrug, my thoughts on that don’t matterNot every focus and component, only those without a specific cost. I kinda guessed it was a design compromise between people who wanted to keep the flavor of all the little spell components and focuses from earlier editions' spells, and people who didn't want to deal with the bookkeeping of tracking all the little spell components and focuses from earlier editions' spells; while retaining the option to say "this is an expensive spell okay? Deal with it" when designers wanted to.

[Themrys]

I think I prefer this piece of a Watsonian take more than some Doylist views. If Durkon's Wisdom does not lead him to being worried about the child's being protected, is that not sufficient?

Apparently, for some people, it isn't.

I do agree, though.

The Watsonian take is the only way to enjoy the comic in general.

Hilgya is a victim of some people suddenly deciding to consider throwaway jokes to be a part of characterisation, when they are not considered thus inside the comic.

If we take it seriously that V uses a "tentacles of forced intrusion" then V is a rapist, which by rights should make V evil. Yet V is clearly not evil when they meet Miko. As I recall she did a detect evil on everyone but Belkar with his lead sheet.

Elan's decision to show no empathy when Roy is hit by a poisonous trap with spikes that would have killed anyone in real life, but instead use the situation to get back at Roy, is not referenced ever again after the panel.

The whole party condemns a Hydra to eternal suffering, because it's funny. Are we to take that as indicator of their morality? Apparently not.


But with Hilgya, not only things that are meant to indicate that she has a tendency towards violence (let's not forget V isn't evil in-comic despite frequently using explosive runes on people who are being annoying) are taken as proof of extreme evilness, but even the fact that she brings a baby into battle (which is clearly NOT meant to indicate bad parenting) is taken at face value.



Edit: And claiming that Hilgya wouldn't let Kudzu worship Thor or even become a cleric is EXTREMELY ridiculous. Really, please do THINK for a moment. Hilgya had sex with a cleric of Thor, and unlike Durkon had every intention of making that a long-term relationship. She probably wouldn't be happy if Kudzu risked his afterlife by not using her way of cheating the system, but she certainly wouldn't disinherit him or anything.

[bravelove]

Reckless endangerment, bravelove.

That is my argument for removal of custody. Don't know how you're getting lost in the weeds here.

that’d be a tough battle to win as Hilgya could easily claim she entered the area not knowing, didn’t trust weaker enemy clerics against her religion to watch her child or be able to actually protect him, that she came originally to only talk to Durkon which is perfectly legal, and that as a high level cleric her only option she felt would protect her child, would be to keep him near and defend herself against vampires, who managed to get lucky and dominant her but the baby came to zero harm, at best I feel she’d just get a fine and maybe an evaluation of her parenting
To put it in our terms she got told her ex was in a church, so she took his son to show him he has a kid, and when she got there there was an active attack but it was too late to flee, not trusting the clergy to protect her child because she had active training in combat and they really hadn’t, she went with the other people in the church with active training believing them to be able to protect her and her child as she contributed self defense but got ambushed and used as a hostage but came out unharmed!
It’s so easy to paint that as purely a victim, throw on a good sob story as she is a cleric of Loki and would know how to trick people like that and she could easily paint herself as a poor helpless mom caught accidentally in something over her head trying desperately to help her child from situations no person could see coming, in a legal standpoint i don’t know if what happened would be enough to get more then a fine due to the fact she had no clue when she arrived and legitimate reasons to believe he’d be safer with her and with no real way to foresee any of this happening until it was too late and she was in the thick of it

[Duramora]

Ok- failed my Feels save on that one..

[Dion]

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

Edit: OMG. I can’t believe I’m letting myself get sucked into this stupid pointless discussion. I’m out.

[bravelove]

Oh, well, as long as her original plan was just to ambush a high-level adventuring party with a baby strapped to her chest, its all good.

Because remember, that was her actual original goal. She planned to try to kill a high level member of a high level adventuring party, in some half-assed revenge murder fantasy, with a baby strapped to her chest.

Since that plan didn’t work out, and she decided to fight vampires instead, she’s a good mom.

She only killed Durkon after he proposed marriage, for all we know her original plan was to just yell at him and get him to pay child support, we don’t have enough information there

[Peelee]

You forgot the focus
Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures

So once again she hadn’t decided on the plane yet so would she have them yet
Even assuming that's the correct reading, it doesn't matter, because I have shown that the rod is not required in OotS. So it doesn't matter in any event, she can go ahead and plane shift to her hearts content. Or, at least, her spell slots content.

Honestly, if someone were tell me that spell component pouches shouldn't have focus components in them that'd be like saying Steak and Shake isn't known for their burgers because then it would be "Steakburger and Shake".

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

Terrible analogy. Steak and shake is known for their shakes. Their burgers are just a delicious bonus. :smalltongue:

[Jasdoif]

She only killed Durkon after he proposed marriage, for all we know her original plan was to just yell at him and get him to pay child support, we don’t have enough information thereI think she meant "murdering" when she said "murdering" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html), myself.

[bravelove]

Even assuming that's the correct reading, it doesn't matter, because I have shown that the rod is not required in OotS. So it doesn't matter in any event, she can go ahead and plane shift to her hearts content. Or, at least, her spell slots content.


Terrible analogy. Steak and shake is known for their shakes. Their burgers are just a delicious bonus. :smalltongue:

Thank you for the clarification, I’ll accept that I totally forgot about the earlier plane shift

Man what kind of rod would that even take, a rod made out of frozen ranch? Gross but neat!

[Schroeswald]

Thank you for the clarification, I’ll accept that I totally forgot about the earlier plane shift

Man what kind of rod would that even take, a rod made out of frozen ranch? Gross but neat!

I'd guess you'd just turn a rod into a ranch bottle.

[Peelee]

She only killed Durkon after he proposed marriage, for all we know her original plan was to just yell at him and get him to pay child support, we don’t have enough information there

She openly stated her original intention was to murder Durkon. To multiple witnesses.

ETA: Banana'd!

[bravelove]

I think she meant "murdering" when she said "murdering" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html), myself.

Exact quote “I was told someone needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield” suggesting she already knew they were on the way to kill him especially because she didn’t immediately demand they turn him over or anything

[Rrmcklin]

You know, I wish I could say I was surprised that several people keep framing this about Hilyga's inalienable rights as a parent as opposed to justifiable concerns over Kudzu's well-being, or how certain people keep acting as if Hilgya's lack of active malice towards Kudzu himself means it's unreasonable to evaluate how her prior behavior and choices have or could affect his life and well-being, but that happens all the time in real life, so I'm not.

Or how certain people keep reframing Hilgya's actions to be more focused on Kudzu than they actually are - i.e. how justifying her leaving the battle as "she's worried about Kudzu's safety" even though she had very specifically said she hadn't felt invested to begin with, and Kudzu and his safety were not the focus of her leaving statement. But, again, I'm not surprised.

Look, I understand that female characters very often are subject to harsher criticisms, both in media in general, and this comic specifically, but it really does feel like certain people are using that as a shield of any criticism of Hilgya or her parenting which is, frankly, ridiculous.

On the Tarquin comparison, yes, Tarquin was a horrible person and unfit parent and never should have been given custody of Nale. Hilgya is also a horrible person (whether she's capital E "Evil" or not is basically irrelevant as far as I'm concerned) and unfit parent and should not retain custody of Kudzu. These statements are not contradictory, it's possible to believe both of them, and I frankly find it a bit strange the Giant clearly wants us to believe one, but not the other.

And for people making the argument of "Well, the Giant thinks this so...", I'm not disputing he seems to think that Hilgya is somehow more fit than Tarquin. I'm just saying I disagree with that assessment, because it's entirely possible to disagree with the author on things like this, while also acknowledging that it is ultimately his decision and I have no actual say in it.

[Jasdoif]

Exact quote “I was told someone needed help murdering Durkon Thundershield” suggesting she already knew they were on the way to kill him especially because she didn’t immediately demand they turn him over or anythingIt's true; she wanted Durkon dead, and so was willing to help them murder Durkon.

[Schroeswald]

It's true; she wanted Durkon dead, and so was willing to help them murder Durkon.

Clearly when she said that she wanted to help them kill Durkon what she meant was she was planning on capturing him and then giving him a stern talking-to.

[Themrys]

It's true; she wanted Durkon dead, and so was willing to help them murder Durkon.

She didn't want him dead. She wanted to murder him. In D&D, that's two different things.

I don't get why people suddenly apply real world logic to Hilgya, when no one ever did for any of the other characters. (I do suspect it's because she's a woman and it is about who gets to seize ownership of her baby, though.)

This is the world where people consider fighting their elderly friends and relatives do the death. The people who openly talk about that are still deemed good people because people accept the premise that this actually benefits the elderly person.

But when it comes to Hilgya, everyone suddenly forgets the wackyness of D&D life, death and afterlife rules, and pretends this is a real life situation.

[Jasdoif]

She didn't want him dead. She wanted to murder him. In D&D, that's two different things.If you pretend that she can murder him without him being dead as a result of being murdered, sure.

[Dion]

I don't get why people suddenly apply real world logic to Hilgya, when no one ever did for any of the other characters..

[citation needed]

Pretty sure people talk about real life logic and morality here all the time, at least when they’re not talking about Star Wars.

But let’s have a thought experiment. If Princess Leia strapped her little baby Rey to her chest while she fought stormtroopers, would that make her a bad mom?

What if Han strapped Rey’s brother Kylo to his chest, while fighting Bobby Fett? Would that make him a bad dad?

No, of course not, in both cases. Leia is a bad mom because she abandoned Rey in some barren planet to fend for herself, and Han is a bad dad because he’s just a bad person. Strapping babies to their chest like ablative blaster armor wouldn’t make them any worse as parents or people.

[Rrmcklin]

She didn't want him dead. She wanted to murder him. In D&D, that's two different things.

I don't get why people suddenly apply real world logic to Hilgya, when no one ever did for any of the other characters. (I do suspect it's because she's a woman and it is about who gets to seize ownership of her baby, though.)

This is the world where people consider fighting their elderly friends and relatives do the death. The people who openly talk about that are still deemed good people because people accept the premise that this actually benefits the elderly person.

But when it comes to Hilgya, everyone suddenly forgets the wackyness of D&D life, death and afterlife rules, and pretends this is a real life situation.

Because of understanding context? Because the context of "fighting their elderly friends and relatives to the death" was concerning a situation in which something like that could result in said friends and relatives going to a great afterlife, as opposed to be tortured in Hel for eternity, whereas Hilgya murdered Durkon because he asked her a stupid question in a tactless way? Oh, and the fact that when she brought him back she was surrounded by his armed and powerful friends ready to attack, so it can't even be said to be clear she would have brought him back if that were not the case.

You honestly don't understand the difference between those situations? Even assuming your opening premise of Hilgya being the only one people apply real-world logic and morality to (she isn't, not by a long-shot) those situations still aren't actually comparable.

{scrubbed}

[KorvinStarmast]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} Aargh. Even without TW, it seems to be happening again. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

Rather than get involved in this (seemingly neverending) discussion about Hilgya, I went back to the strip #1181 and looked at each panel with Kudzu in it. I then tried to think through why Rich had the baby pull a particular face in each panel. Doing that reminded me of reading the little "drawn out dramas" in MAD magazine years ago, as done by Sergio Aragones.
It also made me smile and chuckle - which is about the opposite reaction that I get when I see this battle over Hilgya start up again. (With her soon to be off screen, I think).

My daughter recently gave birth to her first child ... and maybe I am getting better vibes from baby and family things than argument things.

Looking forward to the next transition strips: I wonder if O'Chul and Lien have played lots of games of Go, and if Lien is winning a few. :smallsmile: (She said she does not like that game)

[MossyMeow]

Honestly, Hilgya seems like she would be an abusive parent- not physically, but emotionally and verbally. She does seem to love Kudzu, but would that change if he defied her? What if he became a worshipper of Thor?

[Schroeswald]

Aargh. Even without TW, it seems to be happening again. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

Rather than get involved in this (seemingly neverending) discussion about Hilgya, I went back to the strip #1181 and looked at each panel with Kudzu in it. I then tried to think through why Rich had the baby pull a particular face in each panel. Doing that reminded me of reading the little "drawn out dramas" in MAD magazine years ago, as done by Sergio Aragones.
It also made me smile and chuckle - which is about the opposite reaction that I get when I see this battle over Hilgya start up again. (With her soon to be off screen, I think).

My daughter recently gave birth to her first child ... and maybe I am getting better vibes from baby and family things than argument things.

Looking forward to the next transition strips: I wonder if O'Chul and Lien have played lots of games of Go, and if Lien is winning a few. :smallsmile: (She said she does not like that game)
I must say that whenever you look at Kudzu its fun, he seems obsessed with both the idea of feet and his mom's helmet (he wants one of his own) throughout his appearances.

[MossyMeow]

I must say that whenever you look at Kudzu its fun, he seems obsessed with both the idea of feet and his mom's helmet (he wants one of his own) throughout his appearances.

Aren’t all babies obsessed with feet?

[Themrys]

Honestly, Hilgya seems like she would be an abusive parent- not physically, but emotionally and verbally. She does seem to love Kudzu, but would that change if he defied her? What if he became a worshipper of Thor?

You do remember that Durkon was not just a worshipper but a cleric of Thor when she met him, yes? And that she didn't have a problem with that, while he apparently only tolerate her being a cleric of Loki because he didn't know she was one due to having failed his knowledge religion check.

The emotionally and verbally abusive person in this relationship is Durkon, who told her to go back to her arranged husband (who she told him was abusive) and explicitly said he WANTED her to be unhappy because he considered being unhappy her DUTY.

So yeah, clearly, Durkon is the person who should get custody of Kudzu, nevermind that he is no more than a glorified sperm donor who didn't even know about Kudzu's existence until very recently and has previously made it very clear that he wants Kudzu to be considered the child of Hilgya's husband, as many countries would, in fact, do. /sarcasm


It is a very, very, very bad idea to try and bring intolerance into this.

Because, you know who has been shown to be intolerant of other religions? Durkon. Malack wanted to stay friends with him and tried to compromise. Now, I don't say Durkon didn't have a point when he refused to compromise with an evil, bloodsucking vampire, but tolerance really isn't the thing in which he is superior to Hilgya in any way whatsoever. It just isn't.

[Sindeloke]

My daughter recently gave birth to her first child ... and maybe I am getting better vibes from baby and family things than argument things.

I would hazard to suggest that most people do.* However, humans are strongly associative creatures. We are wired to connect things to their context. Not always, obviously - taking things wildly out of context is also a quintessentially human thing - but for many people, in this instance, we cannot just appreciate Kudzu's cute faces and ignore the person holding him, any more than we can watch Han Solo approach his son across a bridge and be touched by his loving and accepting gesture without any regard for what we know will be the result of that choice. (Y'all wanted Star Wars again, right? That's what you were saying?)

Kudzu does not exist in isolation; he exists as part of a complex story and is intimately involved in the question of Hilgya's morality and treatment of others. Some people can ignore that and d'aww at the image of his lil dwarflet face, others cannot. It's not really an indictment of either group. Stories hit people differently and different things catch in the craw of different people based on our own different perspectives and experiences.

* Some people really do love a good bit of antagonism, but I suspect it's many fewer than it seems from simply observing the internet.


And for people making the argument of "Well, the Giant thinks this so...", I'm not disputing he seems to think that Hilgya is somehow more fit than Tarquin. I'm just saying I disagree with that assessment, because it's entirely possible to disagree with the author on things like this, while also acknowledging that it is ultimately his decision and I have no actual say in it.

Yeah I think a big part of the problem with Hilgya is a tonal mismatch. This comic strip has evolved a great deal from the days when the team did obviously Evil stuff as one-off gags and we were meant to laugh and move on without thinking about it. The Giant has, in fact, singled out a couple of those thoughtlessly Evil moments as the strip has evolved, and used them to echo back on the players and examine (and implicitly condemn) the carelessness of the strip's early morality. But Hilgya seems to still exist in that original dynamic, to a certain degree, which becomes a real issue when her "flame strike to resolve domestic dispute" overreaction humor hits up against a narrative environment that no longer treats such things so trivially, and an audience conditioned to view things from within that new more serious narrative framework.

(Reminds me a lot of some of the old arguments I had with people over Harley/Ivy, Harley/Joker, and relative abusiveness of relationships back in the day before H/I was explicit canon. Genre tone is so important and a surprisingly common problem with author-audience communication.)

[Rrmcklin]

You do remember that Durkon was not just a worshipper but a cleric of Thor when she met him, yes? And that she didn't have a problem with that, while he apparently only tolerate her being a cleric of Loki because he didn't know she was one due to having failed his knowledge religion check.

Did you miss the part in which Hilgya specifically refused to hand over Kudzu's the people at the temple specifically because they were worshipers of Thor? Or when she insulted Thor in this very strip? Hilgya was okay with Durkon at first because of her mistaken impression that he was like her, and hated Dwarven customs and rules, and that apparently trumped her distaste for his god. Now, you could say that Kudzu being her son would do the same - or not.


The emotionally and verbally abusive person in this relationship is Durkon, who told her to go back to her arranged husband (who she told him was abusive) and explicitly said he WANTED her to be unhappy because he considered being unhappy her DUTY.

Neither of those things constitute emotional or verbal abuse. They constitute reasons she would justifiably not like Durkon, but those aren't the same thing. Also, a bit of a misinterpretation of what actually happened, which is unnecessary because, again, how things actually played out are already good enough for her to not like him, you don't need to distort the truth to get justification out of it.


So yeah, clearly, Durkon is the person who should get custody of Kudzu, nevermind that he is no more than a glorified sperm donor who didn't even know about Kudzu's existence until very recently and has previously made it very clear that he wants Kudzu to be considered the child of Hilgya's husband, as many countries would, in fact, do. /sarcasm

Whether Durkon is fit to have custody has no barring on whether Hilgya is. Personally I'd say he is (more so than her, anyway), and your arguments against such are incredibly weak, but that's besides the point right now because neither he nor the story are acting as if he should have sole custody or as if Kudzu should go with him right now.

You keep bringing up this false dichotomies (like either Kudzu stays with Hilgya or Durkon, as if absolutely no other options exist) to shut down people's points, and it's very annoying.


It is a very, very, very bad idea to try and bring intolerance into this.

Because, you know who has been shown to be intolerant of other religions? Durkon. Malack wanted to stay friends with him and tried to compromise. Now, I don't say Durkon didn't have a point when he refused to compromise with an evil, bloodsucking vampire, but tolerance really isn't the thing in which he is superior to Hilgya in any way whatsoever. It just isn't.
{scrubbed}

[MossyMeow]

It is a very, very, very bad idea to try and bring intolerance into this.

Because, you know who has been shown to be intolerant of other religions? Durkon. Malack wanted to stay friends with him and tried to compromise. Now, I don't say Durkon didn't have a point when he refused to compromise with an evil, bloodsucking vampire, but tolerance really isn't the thing in which he is superior to Hilgya in any way whatsoever. It just isn't.

Unless I missed something, Durkon didn't want to stop being friends with Malack because of his religion, or even because he was a vampire; he stopped being friends with Malack because he was hurting other people. Can we at least agree that hurting other people is wrong, or do we have to argue about that, too?

[Dutch]

This comic made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Especially the last panel, that just hit me right in the feels!!!!

[hroþila]

I'd like to note that Malack's religion wasn't vampirism, it was Nergal worship, which wasn't a secret, and Durkon was perfectly cool with it.

[Schroeswald]

Unless I missed something, Durkon didn't want to stop being friends with Malack because of his religion, or even because he was a vampire; he stopped being friends with Malack because he was hurting other people. Can we at least agree that hurting other people is wrong, or do we have to argue about that, too?

Hurting other people is good actually you see, and that is because Chaotic Evil is the real Good and thus Belkar is Neutral Good, y'see.

[MossyMeow]

I'd like to note that Malack's religion wasn't vampirism, it was Nergal worship, which wasn't a secret, and Durkon was perfectly cool with it.

And that he was perfectly willing to allow Malack to explain his point of view, and was even eager to learn more. Durkon’s not perfect, but he is not intolerant.

[Liquor Box]

Hilgya is clearly a bad person, is in the wrong more than Durkon with respect to their relationship and tribulations, but I don't think we have anything to say that she is not fit to be a parent. The only thing we really have to go on is that she took Kudzu into a dangerous situation, but given the context of D&D I think people are overemphasising that.



Yeah I think a big part of the problem with Hilgya is a tonal mismatch. This comic strip has evolved a great deal from the days when the team did obviously Evil stuff as one-off gags and we were meant to laugh and move on without thinking about it. The Giant has, in fact, singled out a couple of those thoughtlessly Evil moments as the strip has evolved, and used them to echo back on the players and examine (and implicitly condemn) the carelessness of the strip's early morality. But Hilgya seems to still exist in that original dynamic, to a certain degree, which becomes a real issue when her "flame strike to resolve domestic dispute" overreaction humor hits up against a narrative environment that no longer treats such things so trivially, and an audience conditioned to view things from within that new more serious narrative framework.


Any sch tonal mismatch only arises if you perceive Hilgya as a character that is supposed to be sympathetic though. There would be no such mismatch if Xykon were to act similarly. But I don't think there's anything in the comic that suggests that Hilgya is supposed to be sympathetic - she is simply an evil character who does evil things. I don't think the giant foresaw that some people would seize on things like her gender to perceive her as sympathetic.

[Rrmcklin]

Hilgya is clearly a bad person, is in the more than Durkon with respect to their relationship and tribulations, but I don't think we have anything to say that she is not fit to be a parent. The only thing we really have to go on is that she took Kudzu into a dangerous situation, but given the context of D&D I think people are overemphasising that.

Except we have fair enough reason to think (via the case of Eric) that if something actually did happen to him (and it got very close to being the case) he wouldn't have been possible to bring back.

Hilgya basically had three options:

1) Leave a soon as found out more about the situations instead of carrying him into battle.

2) Leave him with the acolytes of Thor for a bit.

3) Do what she did.

Of the three, the first very clearly puts his well-being ahead of the other two, but the second one is at least not ridiculous.

Though, she also had the option of not seeking revenge to begin with, but she wouldn't be Hilgya if she did that.

[HalfTangible]

Except we have fair enough reason to think (via the case of Eric) that if something actually did happen to him (and it got very close to being the case) he wouldn't have been possible to bring back.

We know that. Hilgya doesn't; I'm not even sure Roy remembers it (or, well, more specifically doesn't remember why it didn't work).

[Necris Omega]

She doesn't deserve custody because of the way she named him? That doesn't strike you as a Miko-esque gross overreaction?
If you want to defend the fitness of a a mother who essentially names her child "choking invasive parasite" then... alright.

If you want to defend an impulsive murderer as a fit mother, then that's... I'm sorry, but that's not reasonable. At all.



Also, she raised Durkon. He got better.

And? Savagely assaulting someone, then administering medical aid does not make it okay to assault someone.

Second, even with Resurrection, death in this world still has consequences. Roy spent the vast majority of this strip trying to catch up to where he died in terms of character capacity, and that's from dying once. With that as a yard stick, in terms of mechanics, Durkon is not only done progressing, he's been set back so far there probably isn't enough of the comic left for him to even get back to where he'd be if he wasn't murdered a second time.

As a character in the plot, sure. Durkon's back. As a character in a world adhering to D&D mechanics, mechanics which can, have, and doubtlessly will still play a significant role in said plot? ... Durkon's back, but with damage he will never recover from, or at the very least won't recover from for a very, very long time.

Resurrection or no, killing Durkon has serious consequences that will be plaguing this strip probably for the rest of its run.



How do you want the Order to deal with her, kill her and raise her? Strictly an eye for an eye? They're not judge, jury, and executioner. They're not meting out justice for every transgression they see. They have a mission, and that's what they're focused on. Hilgya can get her comeuppance in the afterlife, there's no reason for the Order to have to address every wrong they come across.

Incapacitate her, have her imprisoned, and put her child in the hands of the not murderous grandmother perhaps? I just don't see this as being that prohibitively complicated. And, "no reason?" "Every transgression?" Pardon? This isn't just some random side-quest, or a twenty page detour to cleanup the main plot's left overs. This is as deeply a personal issue as any of them could ever face. Durkon's child is now in the hands of an unbalanced murderous agent of chaos. Your response kind of reads as, "oh well, not OotS' problem to solve, on with the plot"?

"Now, as I stated, I would like us to refocus our efforts on saving the world, unimpeded by any other foolishness." ~ Vaarsuvius

Sorry, but that interpretation just really comes off as callous. No one's can expect them to deal with every possible issue, sure. But a better resolution for Hilgya than, "well, whatever, here's a cute picture of Durkon and his child," doesn't feel like that big of an ask. For me, that just overshadows the emotions of this installment.

[NobleCuriosity]

Aye, I once played a dwarf druid who was all about rocks and geology.

That piqued my interest. Care to expand on this character concept?



I really dislike the idea of killing two such characters off-panel, but I'm also not sure this meets the traditional definition of fridging. (What love interest of Lien's is being motivated by her death in this narrative?)

She says she has a steady boyfriend in a Don’t Split the Party bonus strip (572f), but that’s literally all we know about him.

Also, I read 3 pages of Hilgya arguments just to see if anybody else made these responses to those posts. :/

[Rrmcklin]

We know that. Hilgya doesn't; I'm not even sure Roy remembers it (or, well, more specifically doesn't remember why it didn't work).

Even assuming she doesn't, her going "if my baby dies I can just have him resurrected so I'll take the risk" in and of itself would count as a strike against her to me (and any other parent, for that matter).

[HalfTangible]

That piqued my interest. Care to expand on this character concept?




She says she has a steady boyfriend in a Don’t Split the Party bonus strip (572f), but that’s literally all we know about him.

Also, I read 3 pages of Hilgya arguments just to see if anybody else made these responses to those posts. :/

Lien also mentioned her boyfriend in this very book. She told O'Chul that she was lucky most people she knew lived on the waterfront, as most of them got away from Azure City.


Even assuming she doesn't, her going "if my baby dies I can just have him resurrected so I'll take the risk" in and of itself would count as a strike against her to me (and any other parent, for that matter).

Probably, yeah, but precision is important.

I don't think Hilgya is a good person at all and I'm not 100% happy with the resolution but I'm not angry about it. The idea here seems to be that Hilgya and Durkon have moved past their mutual dislike and emotional pain and will do what's best for their son moving forward. That's a start. (and maybe I'm reading too much into it but Hilgya seemed concerned Durkon wouldn't make it back. Giving a **** about the life of someone you previously wanted dead is, at least, a step in the right direction)

[Liquor Box]

Except we have fair enough reason to think (via the case of Eric) that if something actually did happen to him (and it got very close to being the case) he wouldn't have been possible to bring back.

Hilgya basically had three options:

1) Leave a soon as found out more about the situations instead of carrying him into battle.

2) Leave him with the acolytes of Thor for a bit.

3) Do what she did.

Of the three, the first very clearly puts his well-being ahead of the other two, but the second one is at least not ridiculous.

Though, she also had the option of not seeking revenge to begin with, but she wouldn't be Hilgya if she did that.

The context that I was thinking of was not the availability of raising dead, but the high incidence of violence in the universe. It seems to me that a lot of common sense norms that apply to real life are frequently violated by the comic and life is consistently treated cheaply (even where raising seems unlikely). In that context, Hilgya going into a dangerous situation with a baby seems less egregious than it would in real life.

That wont stand up to too much scrutiny, but I think that neither would some other similar scenes involving violence. I mean, applying real life norms, Roy dangling the oracle out the window to extort further answers from his would arguably make him evil and require a significant redemptive storyline to bring him back to good - something that uin real life he might have to achieve from prison.

[Sindeloke]

Sorry, but that interpretation just really comes off as callous. No one's can expect them to deal with every possible issue, sure. But a better resolution for Hilgya than, "well, whatever, here's a cute picture of Durkon and his child," doesn't feel like that big of an ask. For me, that just overshadows the emotions of this installment.

Yeah, that.

[Mandor]

I'm not sure I've ever seen Hilgya look more like a PERSON, and less like a caricature.... ever.
I like it. And I'm forced to add some respect for her too.

Good show.

[hroþila]

Sorry, but that interpretation just really comes off as callous. No one's can expect them to deal with every possible issue, sure. But a better resolution for Hilgya than, "well, whatever, here's a cute picture of Durkon and his child," doesn't feel like that big of an ask. For me, that just overshadows the emotions of this installment.
What else can Durkon do at this very moment? He already said he'd have the case arbitrated if needed - presumably that could result in a parent losing custody under certain circumstances. That's still Durkon's legal recourse, if he later comes to the conclusion that he should take Kudzu away from his mother for his own good. They can't deal with this right now in any other way unless you're suggesting they give Hilgya a beating or even kill her and then steal her baby.

I don't think it's callous at all, just as ditching the Western continent and focusing on their quest wasn't callous. This isn't a resolution in that it's not suggesting that everything's fixed. This is a resolution in that things have been stabilized and can be properly dealt with later (hence what Durkon said about working out an arrangement when he's back).

[bunsen_h]

Even assuming she doesn't, her going "if my baby dies I can just have him resurrected so I'll take the risk" in and of itself would count as a strike against her to me (and any other parent, for that matter).

Dying and being raised/whatever costs a level. How does that work for young children?

EDIT: Or is there still the "lose a CON point" option? I'm used to older rules.

[Jasdoif]

Dying and being raised/whatever costs a level. How does that work for young children?If you're first level, you permanently lose two points of Constitution. If you don't have two points of Constitution to lose...you're out of luck life without true resurrection.

[Sindeloke]

Any sch tonal mismatch only arises if you perceive Hilgya as a character that is supposed to be sympathetic though. There would be no such mismatch if Xykon were to act similarly. But I don't think there's anything in the comic that suggests that Hilgya is supposed to be sympathetic - she is simply an evil character who does evil things. I don't think the giant foresaw that some people would seize on things like her gender to perceive her as sympathetic.

I do think it's fairly obvious she's meant to be Evil, but I definitely think we're supposed to also be largely okay with it, much as we are with Belkar. Every other character in the Order so far who has had a familial arc has had it resolved in either a "just" or a "good" way. Tarquin was defeated by his own rules and Nale was stripped of his team, power, and the affection of his father. Haley's father wasn't able to become what she needed from him, but she herself was able to finally stop needing that from him. Eugene is miserable in the Afterlife, forced to watch the son he resented accomplish the thing that he couldn't. V's family was saved, and when they chose to leave him for their own safety and happiness, he was mature and accepting about it. As a rule, things turn out okay in the end for our protagonists, and the people who oppose them suffer appropriate consequences. The heroes learn hard lessons and suffer losses and are forced to grow in response to adversity, but ultimately their arcs are resolved positively. The framing of this strip strongly suggests this is intended to be no different - it's a soft moment of hinted reconciliation designed to assure us that Durkon's difficult struggle with his unexpected fatherhood is over and he now has the access and wisdom to be the parent he wants to be. His family is safe, he's worked things out with his babymama, he'll be with his son, Hilgya is leaving the story, her part is done. Things aren't perfect, but they're acceptable, with a promise of future good.

If the Giant agreed with those of us who think Hilgya is a dangerously unfit parent and Kudzu's future is uncertain at best in her care, it would be very weird for him to end Durkon's book with Hilgya walking consequence-free and Kudzu-carrying into the sunset, tantamount to ending Elan's book with Tarquin's narratively triumphant death at Elan's hands or Haley's book with Crystal stabbing her dad and running away gloating. That's not "acceptable, with a promise of future good," it's "terrible, the good guys lost hard and the bad guys got away scot free."

[Peelee]

If you want to defend an impulsive murderer as a fit mother, then that's... I'm sorry, but that's not reasonable. At all.

I agree. I defended the Order not taking vengeance on her.

[gerryq]

5 gold on the last strip being Xykon and Redcloak at the last Gate.

Yeah, it makes sense dramatically to remind readers of the stakes.

[joela]

Damn...dust ninjas 😭😭😭!

[Ruck]

She says she has a steady boyfriend in a Don’t Split the Party bonus strip (572f), but that’s literally all we know about him.


Lien also mentioned her boyfriend in this very book. She told O'Chul that she was lucky most people she knew lived on the waterfront, as most of them got away from Azure City.

And in any case, I highly doubt he's going to show up to join the Order after getting the news.


They're currently exposed to the frigid climate; it's not a traditional fridge, either :smalltongue: (I'm pretty sure the term's scope has expanded, too...Even then it does, admittedly, depend a fair bit on whether "dead Lien and O-Chul" is meant to apply "dead" to O-Chul as well as Lien.)

Ah, I assumed it did mean that both of them were dead. Yeah, I suppose it would qualify if O-Chul is still alive, but I also think everyone on this mission is plenty motivated as is and doesn't need anyone further killed to drive home the stakes (which is just one of the reasons "dead Lien and O-Chul," for any state of O-Chul, is a bad storytelling idea).


Also, I read 3 pages of Hilgya arguments just to see if anybody else made these responses to those posts. :/

It took some practice, but I've gotten pretty good at skimming.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm glad Durkon and Hilgya didn't split up before, if not working out their issues, at least laying the groundwork for doing so. This is a much better note to split up on than "everything is a competition, and only losers [like you] think otherwise" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html).