Minions in 5e

[Bjarkmundur]

This video by Dungeon Dudes (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DxAO1aYhWZl0&ved=2ahUKEwjyp7f22OnkAhUdQEEAHep0Cw4QwqsBMAp6BAgKE AU&usg=AOvVaw3aYHXQ5F6gYqvHaL72OYOQ) gives a guideline on how to fit 4e minion type monsters into the CR system of 4e. It got me thinking

How much XP reduction would you impose on a creature with only 1 remaining HP that deals half damage?

Or in other words

If I take one CR 1 monster from an encounter and swap it out for a group of CR 1 monster which all do half damage and have 1 HP remaining, how big would the group have to be for it to be an equal exchange?

[Willie the Duck]

I believe 4e minions also avoid area-of-effect damage on a successful save, such that a fireball won't wipe out the lot of them.

Regarding the basic premise, I think that a formulaic answer is not going to return a consistently reasonable result. Some creatures (actually quite a few, to the disapproval of many) are rather 'bags of hit points' in this edition and reducing them to 1 hp each rather truncates their value as opponents. Other creatures less so, and for them, reducing their hp to 1 is a lesser consequence, so altering their CR value by the same amount will make the (already shaky) CR system seem all the more unreliable.

[Bjarkmundur]

*cries in DM*
:'(


Sometimes I love the free-flowing nature of 5e, but sometimes the lack of structure really works agaainst me

Is there no general formula we can come up with, something that works fine until I can replace it with experience? I just need a starting point. 2 creatures? Three?
If it helps I'm mostly looking at levels 3-8.

[JackPhoenix]

It will never be equal exchange as long as Magic Missile and AoE's exists. Though spellcasters will be happy about that.... martials whose powerful single target attacks will be wasted, not so much.

[MaxWilson]

*cries in DM*
:'(


Sometimes I love the free-flowing nature of 5e, but sometimes the lack of structure really works agaainst me

Is there no general formula we can come up with, something that works fine until I can replace it with experience? I just need a starting point. 2 creatures? Three?
If it helps I'm mostly looking at levels 3-8.

The general formula would be to plug the new monsters into the DMG tables as having 1 HP, and recompute from their. Their defensive CR will probably turn out to be near-zero, but offensive CR will be unchanged [edit: see below], so glass cannon monsters will come out as still pretty high-CR but tanky monsters will come out as fairly low CR.

I'd guesstimate that on average your CR will wind up being cut by about 40%: CR 10 will become ~CR 6. I ran the numbers for a 1-HP Fire Giant, for example, and with only 1 HP it drops from CR 9 to CR 5.

Edit: whoops, sorry, overlooked that you were also halving the damage. A 1 HP Fire Giant that deals half damage is CR 4, not 5, according to the DMG tables as implemented here: http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html

[Willie the Duck]

[/COLOR]Is there no general formula we can come up with, something that works fine until I can replace it with experience? I just need a starting point. 2 creatures? Three?
If it helps I'm mostly looking at levels 3-8.

Between 2 and 3 is a decent rule of thumb, but my general point is that it's going to be so situational that a general rule is going to fail as often as it succeeds (in successfully mapping the challenge).

Just think about 1st level encounters -- goblins and kobolds are already 1-hit kill creatures (usually), so the reduction in hit points is not such a burden. The half damage is and issue, but it is differential between frex. goblins and kobolds (the later of which benefit from more allies around and thus a greater insurance that their pack tactics ability will be active).

[MilkmanDanimal]

Just keep the XP the same; when I have a low-level party, Kobolds are Kobolds, with normal HP. When the party is higher level, then I'll make the Kobold mooks minions. At that point, the XP reward for them is so proportionally minimal either way it's not worth adjusting it. If they torch 20 Kobold minions, using normal XP rules the party gets 500 XP (20 * 25 XP). If I decide a minion is only worth half that, they get 250 XP. At that point, who cares? It's not worth bothering about, as the difference is statistically insignificant.

Don't bother. Just give full XP, it's minor enough to not matter.

[PhantomSoul]

Just keep the XP the same; when I have a low-level party, Kobolds are Kobolds, with normal HP. When the party is higher level, then I'll make the Kobold mooks minions. At that point, the XP reward for them is so proportionally minimal either way it's not worth adjusting it. If they torch 20 Kobold minions, using normal XP rules the party gets 500 XP (20 * 25 XP). If I decide a minion is only worth half that, they get 250 XP. At that point, who cares? It's not worth bothering about, as the difference is statistically insignificant.

Don't bother. Just give full XP, it's minor enough to not matter.

I believe they're talking about the minions mechanic from 4e (monsters having 1 HP and effectively having Evasion, so dramatically affecting their survivability depending on the base creature), and not just the use of small threats / non-boss mobs subordinate to another creature.