Wish, Simulacrum, True Polymorph

[Warlush]

So am I right in thinking that a 17th level wizard/sorcerer or an 18th level bard could use Wish to make a Simulacrum, then true polymorph it into a CR 17 monster?

Also would this monster still count as your simulacrum for the sake of creating a new one? Or could said wizard/sorcerer or bard build an army of high CR monsters?

[NNescio]

So am I right in thinking that a 17th level wizard/sorcerer or an 18th level bard could use Wish to make a Simulacrum, then true polymorph it into a CR 17 monster?

Yes.



Also would this monster still count as your simulacrum for the sake of creating a new one?

Yes.



Or could said wizard/sorcerer or bard build an army of high CR monsters?

No... well, not without Wish-Sim chaining shenanigans.

[darknite]

Yeah. I do that with my Wizard (actually using Simulacrum unless he wants to save $$$) and my Bard all the time. Keeps the Sim alive longer in a helpful form ... my favorite is Planetar.

[RickAllison]

Does a polymorphed simulacram still have the restriction on regaining spell slots? Because an Androsphinx could be great.

[darknite]

Does a polymorphed simulacram still have the restriction on regaining spell slots? Because an Androsphinx could be great.

I've had some DMs who will say that since it's polymorphed, it actually IS the creature and hence can regain HP and the like. I don't play it that way - I see the underlying magic of Simulacrum preventing such rejuvenation. So I'd say it varies though I side with still being restricted.

[Doug Lampert]

I've had some DMs who will say that since it's polymorphed, it actually IS the creature and hence can regain HP and the like. I don't play it that way - I see the underlying magic of Simulacrum preventing such rejuvenation. So I'd say it varies though I side with still being restricted.

I would tend to say that if it is no longer a simulacrum, then it is no longer a simulacrum and isn't necessarily loyal or under your command. Which might well be the best ruling, but I suspect is not RAW as even permanent true polymorph can be dispelled and is still a spell making a change.

Now, is using True Polymorph to turn into a monster with spells regaining spells or simply getting a new set? I'd tend to say it's a new set and you do get it. You're spending a ninth level spell, which could simply give you a new simulacrum via wish, so I'm not seeing how this could be argued to be any more unballanced than the use of Simulacrum in the first place.

[RickAllison]

I would tend to say that if it is no longer a simulacrum, then it is no longer a simulacrum and isn't necessarily loyal or under your command. Which might well be the best ruling, but I suspect is not RAW as even permanent true polymorph can be dispelled and is still a spell making a change.

Now, is using True Polymorph to turn into a monster with spells regaining spells or simply getting a new set? I'd tend to say it's a new set and you do get it. You're spending a ninth level spell, which could simply give you a new simulacrum via wish, so I'm not seeing how this could be argued to be any more unballanced than the use of Simulacrum in the first place.

That's what I figured; it's still potent to trade out a 9th level for a bunch of lower slots, but I figured might as well check on whether it would need to be reapplied. Oh well...

Sibriex could be sweet. Truesight to 120 feet plus being able to target up to three creatures per turn for a nasty transformation effect. If you have long enough sightlines, it would not be odd for the simulacrum to kill groups of enemies with the party never burning resources or putting themselves in danger.

[Clistenes]

Shouldn't the Simulacrum become an independent creature once True Polymorph becomes permanent?

[darknite]

Even if independent, the Simulacrum (if a self-Simulacrum) would remain you. I'd say you would have a pretty good simpatico with even an 'independent' version of you, at least for some time. It would also revert to a Simulacrum if its' form was killed. Is that Simulacrum still subject to the original spell's conditions? How about if you cast Simulacrum again? Would the True-Poly'd Simulacrum disappear even though it was now another creature. IMHO, keep it simple - the rules of Simulacrum move to the True Poly'd creature you create from one.

[RickAllison]

Shouldn't the Simulacrum become an independent creature once True Polymorph becomes permanent?

That's a difficult thing; remember that it isn't truly permanent, it's just until it's dispelled. Also that it retains its personality and, if it is no longer subject to listening to commands, it probably also doesn't count for locking down the user's Simulacrum in the world. Now if a DM decided it did make them an independent creature, it could make an amazing sleeper agent. The simulacrum is given orders to unleash its full salvo of spells to destroy a place, then it is True Polymorphed into a baby. Leave it at an orphanage, when it is subject to either a dispelling ability or its hp go to zero, it becomes a walking bomb that's already in the place.

Then again, at that point you could just Polymorph the simulacrum into an animal and trebuchet it into the place. But that's less fun.

[Damon_Tor]

Quibble: the Simulacrum cannot "become more powerful". A rather nebulous clause which could nonetheless be read to prohibit a Simulacrum from any useful alternate form.

[darknite]

Quibble: the Simulacrum cannot "become more powerful". A rather nebulous clause which could nonetheless be read to prohibit a Simulacrum from any useful alternate form.

Quibble indeed. How do you define powerful? Does a Simulacrum True-Poly'd into a rabbit become more powerful? If not, at what point of going up the CR tree does a poly become more powerful? Does a Simulacrum under the effect of a Haste spell become more powerful?

No, that's all sophistry. What that statement means is that it can't level or otherwise progress as a character.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Quibble: the Simulacrum cannot "become more powerful". A rather nebulous clause which could nonetheless be read to prohibit a Simulacrum from any useful alternate form.

Would a Sim of my Level 18 Bard, being a 60ish hit point Level 18 Bard minus one 6th or 9th level slot be regarded as Level 18 or a lower CR?

Do we have any 60 hit point 9th level casters in the Monster Manual to use for guidance? A Lich or some type?

[Damon_Tor]

Quibble indeed. How do you define powerful? Does a Simulacrum True-Poly'd into a rabbit become more powerful? If not, at what point of going up the CR tree does a poly become more powerful? Does a Simulacrum under the effect of a Haste spell become more powerful?

A monster's CR*4 is equal to a PC's character level in terms of power. This is explicit. As such, a Simulacrum can be True Polymorphed into a creature with a CR of 1/4 of his level or lower.


No, that's all sophistry. What that statement means is that it can't level or otherwise progress as a character.

If they had meant that, and only that, they could have said that. They could have said "The simulacrum cannot gain levels or otherwise progress as a character." Instead they said "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots." The wording is broad. I'm not sure what the intent of the broad wording is (suspicion: to eliminate unthought-of exploits on an spell with a power level that worried them) but by RAW it can be read to disallow True Polymorph into creatures with too high of a CR.

[JNAProductions]

A monster's CR*4 is equal to a PC's character level in terms of power. This is explicit. As such, a Simulacrum can be True Polymorphed into a creature with a CR of 1/4 of his level or lower.]

Gonna need to cite a source on that bit.

[Warlush]

I think issues like this are why nobody plays past level 14.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I think issues like this are why nobody plays past level 14.

Or the reason some start at 14.