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Douche
2019-09-24, 02:46 PM
Hello all,

I wouldn't call this so much of a problem, but rather an observation. I also realize that the thread title points the finger at the players, but I'm probably the one at fault.

Essentially, I've been feeling that the players in one of my groups do not know why they are doing what they're doing. They're just letting me hold them by the hand and lead them through whatever the adventure tells them. This group is doing Age of Worms (converted to 5e)

My other group, by contrast, ran Curse of Strahd and it seemed they never lacked motivation or direction. It's a very well written campaign. There is one girl in that group who is super enthusiastic about roleplaying though, and I think that elevates the whole group.

But Age of Worms, it seems like the group is very lethargic and it feels like I'm holding them by the hand just telling them what they have to do. Or that I'm just giving them hoops to jump through before the next plot point emerges

The central plot point in the early game is for them to discover the source of these Kyuss worms. Only it feels like I missed the mark there - they don't seem interested at all, and I could believe them just handing off the information to someone who would be more interested.

The problem is that I've been trying to find something the party would be passionate about, but when I ask them what they'd like to be doing they just shop or the bard goes to perform for gold at the taverns. I can't really think of a way to get them invested in their own side activities. At the same time, I don't know how to make them invested in the main plot either. It feels like they're just going through the motions.

Composer99
2019-09-24, 02:58 PM
That seems like something where you might want to try an out-of-game conversation, whether one-on-one with players or as a group. Were these players engaged with or interested in other content before? If so, what content? That might give you something to work with.

Knaight
2019-09-24, 04:08 PM
So, as a general rule - if the response to the core throughline of the campaign is "eh, sounds boring", don't run that campaign for these players. It just doesn't work.

Themrys
2019-09-24, 05:31 PM
Sounds like another "my players have their characters behave too much like real people" problem.

If you asked most of my characters what they really want to do, their answer would likely be: "Earn some money and spend it on stuff I want to have", too. I even had a character whose whole adventuring motivation was "Get more money than I could by honest work so that I can marry my beloved and settle down in my home village."

Doesn't mean they wouldn't all go help someone in need.

However, it would have been rather hard to get to be intrinsically motivated to solve a mystery if the only reward for solving it is likely to be having solved it, and nothing else.

Pauly
2019-09-24, 06:47 PM
Without knowing the module there are some things I can think of:
- Some modules actively punish the players for going off the rails. If the module is lacking on details and side quests then players realize that the only path is the railway.
- Sometimes GMs, without realizing it, give players clues that they should be on the rails and shouldn’t go off. Usually this is because the GM is enthusiastic about what they have prepared and unenthusiastic about improvised stuff. This rewards the players for being passive and following the GM’s lead.
- There is a difference in knowledge between the GM and players. Once you know the solution the problem seems easy, and what seems obvious to you the GM may be as clear as mud to the players. An OOC summary of what has happened in the campaign to date and where the players think the adventure is going can give you clues as to what the players have understood.
- Some players have been trained by previous GMs to be passive and to follow the tracks. This requires OOC conversation from you the GM about what you expect from the players.
- Some groups of players are just passive.

Jay R
2019-09-24, 07:40 PM
The problem is that I've been trying to find something the party would be passionate about, but when I ask them what they'd like to be doing they just shop or the bard goes to perform for gold at the taverns.

I'm not sure if I'm being serious or not here, but it seems to me that they need an enemy who's destroying the shops and taverns.

Themrys
2019-09-24, 08:05 PM
I'm not sure if I'm being serious or not here, but it seems to me that they need an enemy who's destroying the shops and taverns.

That would probably work.

But likely, any real problem would work.


Think about the first Harry Potter book: Hermione was the only one interested in the Philosopher's Stone for a long time. She's the one who is interested in secrets just for the sake of finding out.

Harry and Ron are rather less curious about the whole thing for quite a while, and I think only really get interested once they suspect that Snape (whom they hate and want to be a villain) intends to steal the stone.
Even then, they try to get Professor McGonagall to do something about it.

So ...

Give your players an obvious threat, give them a hateable villain, and make it so that only they can do something about the threat.



Perhaps have the bard's greatest fan go missing and every NPC be, for some reason or the other, completely uninterested in doing something about it. ("Everyone but you and your fellow adventurers has forgotten this person even existed" is always a neat one.)

Incorrect
2019-09-25, 01:28 AM
It is a classic problem, and some of the posts above have done a good job at describing some probable reasons for it.

I have had the same problem many times, as I like to GM but also expect a proactive group.
One tip would be to throw some random situations at them, and see what sticks. Then make the plot revolve around that.
I had a very passive group, until they had the chance to buy and improve an inn. They were simply obsessed with protecting and improving this inn, and when I realized that I just needed to give them Inn profits in stead of monster treasure everything became better. Of cause, players being players, they created more than enough problems for themselves to keep the adventure going.

Another classic solution is the villain that the players hate, note that its the players not the characters who hate him. How do you make this legendary motivation?
A person who is much better than the PCs take their stuff! And maybe laughs at them. Done.
They will hunt that person to the end of the world.

In another instance I simply accepted that the group was passive and ended each session with giving them 3 options relating to what they would do next. That made their choice relevant, and I could tell myself that they were at least a bit involved in the story.

As for a prewritten adventure, some short points of advice:
The villain takes their stuff, now they hate him.
Tell them about some very legendary and cool equipment that they can go get.
Another bard becomes super famous for doing X, he laughs at the PC bard for not doing X.
Remember to reward them when they interact with the main plot. The fighter gets a cool sword, and the bard gets super famous (and a cool sword)

denthor
2019-09-25, 07:57 AM
Gee look at Lord of the Rings.

Samwise goes on this great adventure gets rich survives all of the turmoil and grows confident enough to marry

A BARMAID WENCH.

Anti-climactic but he got his reward.

Your players are human.

My group complained we talk to much. Ok why don't we get a bunch of mercenaries 2nd level drunk.

My party: no that would be dangerous they might attack us if we give them beer. Average party level 7th

LordCdrMilitant
2019-09-25, 09:12 AM
Hello all,

I wouldn't call this so much of a problem, but rather an observation. I also realize that the thread title points the finger at the players, but I'm probably the one at fault.

Essentially, I've been feeling that the players in one of my groups do not know why they are doing what they're doing. They're just letting me hold them by the hand and lead them through whatever the adventure tells them. This group is doing Age of Worms (converted to 5e)

My other group, by contrast, ran Curse of Strahd and it seemed they never lacked motivation or direction. It's a very well written campaign. There is one girl in that group who is super enthusiastic about roleplaying though, and I think that elevates the whole group.

But Age of Worms, it seems like the group is very lethargic and it feels like I'm holding them by the hand just telling them what they have to do. Or that I'm just giving them hoops to jump through before the next plot point emerges

The central plot point in the early game is for them to discover the source of these Kyuss worms. Only it feels like I missed the mark there - they don't seem interested at all, and I could believe them just handing off the information to someone who would be more interested.

The problem is that I've been trying to find something the party would be passionate about, but when I ask them what they'd like to be doing they just shop or the bard goes to perform for gold at the taverns. I can't really think of a way to get them invested in their own side activities. At the same time, I don't know how to make them invested in the main plot either. It feels like they're just going through the motions.

@thread title: said no GM ever. ;)

Anyway, this might sound to me like they're not interested in the story about the worms. Maybe have them hand off what they've found to the monarch of the realm, and then have a new and more interesting adventure lead.
It doesn't have to be completely different [for example, a replacement team's been dispatched, but somebody in the court is turning the nobles against this venture to instigate a coup and it's threatening both the realm's stability and the ability of the team that is taking care of it to do their job], but it can be [and suddenly, the abyss invades!]

patchyman
2019-09-25, 03:48 PM
Old trick, but still works: go through the characters’ backstories, find some way to tie it into the story, and hope for the best.

If that doesn’t work (or the backstories are uninspired), go gonzo. A character’s uncle died and left them a run-down mansion on the condition that they spend the night. Also, it is rumoured that there is a treasure on the premises. Finally, Godzilla attacks.

What was the problem again?

Faily
2019-09-25, 04:45 PM
One of the ways I get players attached to the story is to give NPCs that they feel a connection to.

Players get way more motivated in helping NPCs they like, or hunting down that shady son of a ***** that snubbed them that one time.

Even if it's NPCs they hate, hate is a much better mood to have than indifference. Indifference is the biggest killer for a game.

Zombimode
2019-09-25, 05:21 PM
Age of Worms is a campaign that is very thick on atmosphere. Its dark, its moody. It starts as a usual "hey lets go adventuring together" but it soon evolves into finding depravity wherever they go.
The central premise of the Age of Worms, its final horrific vision is that if the Age of Worms fully arrives reality will be nothing but thin sheet that covers the truth: that there is nothing but a writhering mass of worm. Their friends, enemies, lovers? There is nothing but worms in their empty shells making them walk. Their homes and fortesses? There worms inside the walls. Even the soil they walk on: if you remove then topmost layer there is only a writhering mass of worms.
It would be the end of everyting the characters know and care about.

If I were to run Age of Worms THIS would be the vision that I need to install in the players minds.


Like with every campaign heavy on atmosphere especially of the dark/horror kind the DM needs to do some work to create it. And more importantly the players need to be willing to accept it. There are players that just don't like such dark/depressing themes and will ignore it.


Bottom line: dont run Age of Worms if you are not up to the task of creating the dark atmosphere. And also don run it if you have player that would prefere a more lighthearted adventure.

Koo Rehtorb
2019-09-25, 05:34 PM
If players insist on staying on the rails then hit them with trains until they wise up.

Zombimode
2019-09-26, 01:50 AM
Yeah, that is true.

Another thing to note about the Age of Worms is that it is essentially Greyhawk fanservice. In contrast to the other two Dungean Magazine adventure paths that only have nominal (in case of Shackled City) to tangential (in case of Savage Tide) ties to the setting, Age of Worms fully embraces Greyhawk. There are so many references and tie-ins of earlier mysteries (fricking Dragotha!). That alone makes it worth it for fans of the setting.

But if your players have no knowledge/interesst in Greyhawk all of that is lost to them.

Kaptin Keen
2019-09-26, 02:36 AM
The problem is that I've been trying to find something the party would be passionate about, but when I ask them what they'd like to be doing they just shop or the bard goes to perform for gold at the taverns. I can't really think of a way to get them invested in their own side activities. At the same time, I don't know how to make them invested in the main plot either. It feels like they're just going through the motions.

As a player in roleplaying games, this is me: I want to solve the plot. Generally, to me it's like throwing down a gauntlet, I'll bloody well get to the bottom of it!

The whole roleplaying is entirely secondary. Sure, my character will have character, but mostly I joke around with that part, doing things that are amusingly silly, or amusingly cliché, or .. you know. Roleplaying is a joke kinda thing to me.

What that means in practical terms is that I'm wonderful in a group that needs to be pushed in that direction, and with a GM with a decent plot focus. But it's a balance: If I'm in a group with really serious, dedicated roleplayers, it simply doesn't work. The difference is too big to bridge. Similarly, if I'm in a really plot driven group, it's also not ideal - because no one ever has exactly the same idea of what to do and where to go, and that too can cripple a group.

So with a moderate RP group, I can pull them towards the plot, and with a very plot driven group, maybe I can draw them towards roleplaying - since I'm not serious about it, but I tend to make it fun.

It's a complicated dynamic to try and steer or control. And on top, you have the GM, who will also have his personal style and preference.

Scripten
2019-09-26, 09:22 AM
If players insist on staying on the rails then hit them with trains until they wise up.

Maybe I'm not following this conversation well, but I fail to see how punishing the players for doing what the campaign seems to be pushing them to do will help. It seems to me that it is going to lower their investment, not increase it. At best, they'll be confused why things are suddenly harder when they are "following the rules". At worst, they'll entirely check out because they'll see the attack as... well, what it is, an attack on their playstyle.

Wuzza
2019-09-26, 11:30 AM
I think the most pertinent question is, is everyone having fun? (DM included)

There's nothing wrong with "railroading" per se. Some groups need that linear progression. Some thrive on rolling dice if you point them in the right direction, others love to come up with their own stories and goals.

Themrys
2019-09-26, 02:57 PM
Maybe I'm not following this conversation well, but I fail to see how punishing the players for doing what the campaign seems to be pushing them to do will help. It seems to me that it is going to lower their investment, not increase it. At best, they'll be confused why things are suddenly harder when they are "following the rules". At worst, they'll entirely check out because they'll see the attack as... well, what it is, an attack on their playstyle.

Not just an attack on their playstyle, but an attack on their kindness.

I only follow rails because I assume that the DM wants to play the plots they prepared, not something entirely else that my character came up with wanting to do and the DM has to improvise while we are playing.

If someone reacted to that by antagonizing me, I'd leave the group.

Knaight
2019-09-27, 12:57 AM
I only follow rails because I assume that the DM wants to play the plots they prepared, not something entirely else that my character came up with wanting to do and the DM has to improvise while we are playing.

Speaking as a GM - this is a questionable assumption. I tend to have relatively little prepared, precisely because I have no interest in running some prepared plot where the player action fundamentally doesn't affect how it goes. That's before getting into the extent to which improvising is an interesting creative processes, where players trying to follow what they see as the rails leads either to running on autopilot (with planning in place) or running on fumes (where the idea going in was that a lot of your working material for improv would come from the players and instead you get to run with basically no working material).

kyoryu
2019-09-27, 06:19 PM
If players know (or feel) that their decisions don't matter, it's not reasonable to expect them to be invested in those decisions. Honestly, if you want to run a railroad game, just be happy that they're happy to follow the rails.