PF2e house-rules: shiny new systems are made to be broken

[Gurifu]

PF2 looks really good. It does a lot right. It also has some really big flaws that slipped past the Paizo Playtest Robots. So... let's fill this book* with houserule sticky notes* before I even roll a character. I can't change what I am.
* metaphorical book. metaphorical notes.

What's Borked:
Why it's a problem:
House Rule:


What's Borked: Action tax on trivial object interactions.
Why it's a problem: Penalizes variety of actions and weapons, especially for Martial characters, who are already starved for variety. Not realistic. Too much accounting.
House Rule:
The following actions are free and do not provoke: Adjust your grip on a weapon. Switch hands.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may make an Interact (1-Action) for free.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may drop Prone or adjust how you are positioned behind cover for free.

What's Borked: Unattended minions and pets.
Why it's a problem: The rules don't mention what minions and pets do when you aren't Commanding or Handle-Animal-ing them, so a RAW interpretation results in bizarre action-taxing that turns all animals and followers into brain-dead automata that can't even walk along next to you as you go from town to town unless you spend 2 out of every 6 seconds reminding them to do so.
House Rule:
When not being Commanded or Handled, minions and animals act according to their nature under the control of the DM. In combat, they go last.

What's Borked: Too many things are reactions for reactions to be mutually exclusive.
Why it's a problem: If you make an AoO at a spellcaster trying to spell you off a ledge, you can't try to grab the ledge. If you try to grab a ledge, you can't try to soften your fall. Similar anti-common-sense rules.
House Rule:
You get unlimited reactions. If you use the same reaction more than once before the start of your next turn, it takes a cumulative -5 penalty per use past the first.


What's Borked: Ready is 2 actions and only gives 1 action.
Why it's a problem: This overly penalizes Ready and forces the DM to say "no, you can't attempt that" to common-language action declarations, like "I get ready to use my Hydraulic Push spell on the first Orc who comes up the ladder."
House Rule:
The Ready action takes the same number of Actions as the Action or Actions you want to Ready. If you take damage or fail a save while you have a Readied action, you don't get to use it. If the trigger doesn't happen before the start of your next turn, you don't get to use it.


What's Borked: Non-proficiency at higher levels.
Why it's a problem: The 15th level monk forgets everything she ever learned about dodging if she puts on a a chain shirt (AC drops from ~35 to ~15.) The 15th level Rogue, possibly the greatest dagger-user in the history of the kingdom, doesn't know which end of a main-gauche goes in the other man (Attack bonus drops from ~+25 to ~+4).
House Rule:
Non-proficiency is "Your Level -2," not flat +0.


What's Borked: Weapon proficiency feats.
Why it's a problem: No matter how many feats you throw away, characters who are supposed to use weapons only get to use their class features with their class weapons. This is especially problematic for Monks and Rogues. This is proof that Paizo play-tests with robots. How the hell does "A [my favorite class] who uses [a weapon that I think is cool]" become an unplayable garbage build that no amount of Feats can salvage?
House Rule:
If you are proficient with a weapon, you can count it as a Simple Weapon when applying your class features.

[FearlessGnome]

The more I hear about PF2, the more it just looks like it sucks the fun out everything we liked about PF1/3.5 and gives very little back. Some of this is so frustratingly obvious I wonder if it was even proofread, let alone playtested.

[Gurifu]

The more I hear about PF2, the more it just looks like it sucks the fun out everything we liked about PF1/3.5 and gives very little back. Some of this is so frustratingly obvious I wonder if it was even proofread, let alone playtested.

PF2 does a lot right, don't get me wrong. In my opinion, it's a considerably better system than 3.pf... just desperately in need of an errata / some house rules. Many of which are to patch holes created left by the very things that make it a better system. Like doing away with Base Attack Bonus and all its attendant rules and replacing it with the much more natural and smoothly scaling level-plus-proficiency... which is a great improvement in my opinion, but creates the non-proficiency problem I mentioned above.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'd surprised if any of these points were never mentioned in the playtest. For the non-proficiency I do know that the original version worked like that (maybe a different penalty), but people complained about characters being able to do everything and so Paizo changed it (ignored the option of level/2, which would have allowed people not to suck completely outside their area of expertise). So I assume that this is how Paizo rolls.

But I'm surprised that you didn't include the multiclass penalty for feat selection. A prime candidate to be set back to "level", since lower level feats are not viable enough to be chosen at high levels.

[Gurifu]

If I had a player who was particularly horrified that someone untrained in a skill might still roll it at +10 by mid-level, I wouldn't mind removing skills from the nonproficiency fix. Personally I think that's an easier and more viable option than trying to route checks through adjacent skills with circumstance penalties.

The person who's never been asked "can I roll Acrobatics instead" and had to decide whether to allow it and what kind of penalty to assign has never DMed.

And now that all characters are mandatory world class experts in at least one Lore skill by mid level...

[Adiart]

Do you mind if I add in a house rule of my own?

What's Borked: Mutagenist Alchemist first level feature
Why it's a problem: As written, the first level Mutagenist feature does nothing; unarmed proficiency is intended to always be equal to simple proficiency for all characters and mutagens are not keyed to one person anymore.
House Rule: Mutagenists get the following feature at level 1: "When you imbibe a mutagen, you may choose to increase the numerical value of any item bonus granted by this mutagen by 1"

[Gurifu]

That definitely looks like an oversight. I'm wary of direct +1 enhancements, though. I think I'd prefer "when you imbibe a mutagen, you may choose to double or halve its duration" for my table.

[Divine Susuryu]

PF2 looks really good. It does a lot right. It also has some really big flaws that slipped past the Paizo Playtest Robots. So... let's fill this book* with houserule sticky notes* before I even roll a character. I can't change what I am.
* metaphorical book. metaphorical notes.

What's Borked:
Why it's a problem:
House Rule:


What's Borked: Action tax on trivial object interactions.
Why it's a problem: Penalizes variety of actions and weapons, especially for Martial characters, who are already starved for variety. Not realistic. Too much accounting.
House Rule:
The following actions are free and do not provoke: Adjust your grip on a weapon. Switch hands.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may make an Interact (1-Action) for free.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may drop Prone or adjust how you are positioned behind cover for free.

...

What's Borked: Too many things are reactions for reactions to be mutually exclusive.
Why it's a problem: If you make an AoO at a spellcaster trying to spell you off a ledge, you can't try to grab the ledge. If you try to grab a ledge, you can't try to soften your fall. Similar anti-common-sense rules.
House Rule:
You get unlimited reactions. If you use the same reaction more than once before the start of your next turn, it takes a cumulative -5 penalty per use past the first.


What's Borked: Ready is 2 actions and only gives 1 action.
Why it's a problem: This overly penalizes Ready and forces the DM to say "no, you can't attempt that" to common-language action declarations, like "I get ready to use my Hydraulic Push spell on the first Orc who comes up the ladder."
House Rule:
The Ready action takes the same number of Actions as the Action or Actions you want to Ready. If you take damage or fail a save while you have a Readied action, you don't get to use it. If the trigger doesn't happen before the start of your next turn, you don't get to use it.

These three represent a fundamental rewrite of the action system. I also agree with them, but keep that in mind.



What's Borked: Weapon proficiency feats.
Why it's a problem: No matter how many feats you throw away, characters who are supposed to use weapons only get to use their class features with their class weapons. This is especially problematic for Monks and Rogues. This is proof that Paizo play-tests with robots. How the hell does "A [my favorite class] who uses [a weapon that I think is cool]" become an unplayable garbage build that no amount of Feats can salvage?
House Rule:
If you are proficient with a weapon, you can count it as a Simple Weapon when applying your class features.

That's a feature and not a bug, at least from the perspective of the designers. They wanted to pigeonhole classes to weapons.

What's Borked: +/-10 crits
Why it's a problem: Constrains bonus numbers to a very narrow range, and makes the system swingy. This is because a 75% success rate is a 25% critical success rate. To prevent too many crits, this means that rolls need to be whiffy, otherwise the numbers go out of whack. The system functions best (i.e. with the least unusual results for rolls) at 50/50. More or less than that, you start getting more and more outlier results in critical successes or critical failures.
House Rule: No idea, but if this can be cracked the system might actually be worth my time once some more interesting and impactful abilities are introduced to it.

[Gwynfrid]

PF2 looks really good. It does a lot right. It also has some really big flaws that slipped past the Paizo Playtest Robots. So... let's fill this book* with houserule sticky notes* before I even roll a character. I can't change what I am.
* metaphorical book. metaphorical notes.

What's Borked:
Why it's a problem:
House Rule:

I'm going to be more cautious, and not call for house rules at my table before I get a chance to test the baseline. That said, I have read remarks similar to yours a few times on the Paizo forum, so they represent a frequent sentiment, so I don't want to dismiss them.


What's Borked: Action tax on trivial object interactions.
Why it's a problem: Penalizes variety of actions and weapons, especially for Martial characters, who are already starved for variety. Not realistic. Too much accounting.
House Rule:
The following actions are free and do not provoke: Adjust your grip on a weapon. Switch hands.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may make an Interact (1-Action) for free.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may drop Prone or adjust how you are positioned behind cover for free.

The problem with this is that you can now freely switch between one-handed+shield and 2-handed, for free, in any round provided you move once. That's taking it a bit too far imo. It will also unbalance the weapons table: weapons that can be handled with either 1 or 2 hands increase in power significantly relative to the rest.

Another issue I have is that with this rule: A door is no longer an obstacle at all, unless it's locked. Not very credible.


What's Borked: Unattended minions and pets.
Why it's a problem: The rules don't mention what minions and pets do when you aren't Commanding or Handle-Animal-ing them, so a RAW interpretation results in bizarre action-taxing that turns all animals and followers into brain-dead automata that can't even walk along next to you as you go from town to town unless you spend 2 out of every 6 seconds reminding them to do so.
House Rule:
When not being Commanded or Handled, minions and animals act according to their nature under the control of the DM. In combat, they go last.

I agree with this for non-combat situations. In combat, this results in characters with pets getting a total of 5 actions (2 of which are controlled by the DM, but the companion remains an ally, so it's going to defend its master). This is a bit over the top. So I would apply it only to non-combat.


What's Borked: Too many things are reactions for reactions to be mutually exclusive.
Why it's a problem: If you make an AoO at a spellcaster trying to spell you off a ledge, you can't try to grab the ledge. If you try to grab a ledge, you can't try to soften your fall. Similar anti-common-sense rules.
House Rule:
You get unlimited reactions. If you use the same reaction more than once before the start of your next turn, it takes a cumulative -5 penalty per use past the first.

This one is also reaching a little too far out for comfort. I would carve out an exception for some reactions , such as those that apply in case of a fall, but not unlimited reactions across the board. To begin with, a some spells are reactions. Unlimited means several spells per round potentially.



What's Borked: Ready is 2 actions and only gives 1 action.
Why it's a problem: This overly penalizes Ready and forces the DM to say "no, you can't attempt that" to common-language action declarations, like "I get ready to use my Hydraulic Push spell on the first Orc who comes up the ladder."
House Rule:
The Ready action takes the same number of Actions as the Action or Actions you want to Ready. If you take damage or fail a save while you have a Readied action, you don't get to use it. If the trigger doesn't happen before the start of your next turn, you don't get to use it.

I don't think Ready should allow a caster to use any spell they have as a reaction. There's a reason certain spells are reactions.


What's Borked: Non-proficiency at higher levels.
Why it's a problem: The 15th level monk forgets everything she ever learned about dodging if she puts on a a chain shirt (AC drops from ~35 to ~15.) The 15th level Rogue, possibly the greatest dagger-user in the history of the kingdom, doesn't know which end of a main-gauche goes in the other man (Attack bonus drops from ~+25 to ~+4).
House Rule:
Non-proficiency is "Your Level -2," not flat +0.

This one didn't slip past the playtest: It is a result of the playtest. The majority of testers disliked the idea that you can be totally untrained, but just as good as an expert just for being a bunch of levels higher. This is particularly acute for Knowledge or Lore skills.


What's Borked: Weapon proficiency feats.
Why it's a problem: No matter how many feats you throw away, characters who are supposed to use weapons only get to use their class features with their class weapons. This is especially problematic for Monks and Rogues. This is proof that Paizo play-tests with robots. How the hell does "A [my favorite class] who uses [a weapon that I think is cool]" become an unplayable garbage build that no amount of Feats can salvage?
House Rule:
If you are proficient with a weapon, you can count it as a Simple Weapon when applying your class features.

This is also taking the solution a little to far for me. It would reduce the diversity of weapons used in the actual game, because everyone will just grab the best one and tack their class features on top.

[Gurifu]

Thanks for the detailed replies. Lots of useful thoughts.

I just have a brief reply for now.

Re: skills and non-proficiency, as I mentioned above, I wouldn't be strongly opposed to limiting any houserules to just weapons and armor. It's possible that you could play a character who was godly at all the physical skills, none of the mental and interpersonal skills, and had something niche like bricklaying or navigation as a Lore skill, who would genuinely be completely useless at having difficult conversations, recalling obscure knowledge (about anything other than bricklaying), or cracking mental puzzles. And allowing people to roll related skills with a circumstance penalty is a viable case-by-case solution. "Can I roll acrobatics instead?" etc.

The idea that somebody who's a world-class expert at not getting stabbed in the face would be completely inept at not getting stabbed in the face because he disguised himself as a town guard and doesn't have Medium Armor Proficiency, or that a word-class expert at axes would be completely inept with swords (but only -2 with chairs and vases), are so far beyond belief that they're going to get houseruled one way or another.

Another option would be to leave non-proficiency as it is, and add a houserule like the following:

You may count a piece of armor as clothing. If you do so, it retains its Bulk, Check Penalty, and Speed Penalty, if any, but you are otherwise treated as being Unarmored.
You may wield any weapon with which you are not proficient as an Improvised Weapon. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon. Its stats are as listed in its equipment entry.

[Gwynfrid]

Another option would be to leave non-proficiency as it is, and add a houserule like the following:

You may count a piece of armor as clothing. If you do so, it retains its Bulk, Check Penalty, and Speed Penalty, if any, but you are otherwise treated as being Unarmored.
You may wield any weapon with which you are not proficient as an Improvised Weapon. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon. Its stats are as listed in its equipment entry.

Interesting. In fact, I like it a lot. It treats armor and weapons as just regular items, unless you're proficient with them in which case you get their true benefit.

[Gort]

PF2 looks really good. It does a lot right. It also has some really big flaws that slipped past the Paizo Playtest Robots. So... let's fill this book* with houserule sticky notes* before I even roll a character. I can't change what I am.
* metaphorical book. metaphorical notes.

I was in the playtest and it does seem that they ignored much of the feedback. They did pay attention to the surveys, but that was them asking the questions.
I'm still pretty positive so far about the game.



What's Borked:
Why it's a problem:
House Rule:


What's Borked: Action tax on trivial object interactions.
Why it's a problem: Penalizes variety of actions and weapons, especially for Martial characters, who are already starved for variety. Not realistic. Too much accounting.
House Rule:
The following actions are free and do not provoke: Adjust your grip on a weapon. Switch hands.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may make an Interact (1-Action) for free.
As part of any action with the Move trait, you may drop Prone or adjust how you are positioned behind cover for free.

Maybe, but making it totally free doesn't seem realistic either



What's Borked: Unattended minions and pets.
Why it's a problem: The rules don't mention what minions and pets do when you aren't Commanding or Handle-Animal-ing them, so a RAW interpretation results in bizarre action-taxing that turns all animals and followers into brain-dead automata that can't even walk along next to you as you go from town to town unless you spend 2 out of every 6 seconds reminding them to do so.
House Rule:
When not being Commanded or Handled, minions and animals act according to their nature under the control of the DM. In combat, they go last.

I thought that was the rule. I'lll be house rulling that a minion can be commanded to follow you, and it will continue to do just that and nothing else if you don't give it a command the next turn



What's Borked: Too many things are reactions for reactions to be mutually exclusive.
Why it's a problem: If you make an AoO at a spellcaster trying to spell you off a ledge, you can't try to grab the ledge. If you try to grab a ledge, you can't try to soften your fall. Similar anti-common-sense rules.
House Rule:
You get unlimited reactions. If you use the same reaction more than once before the start of your next turn, it takes a cumulative -5 penalty per use past the first.

There are a few feats that don't make sense if your character already has a good reaction to use. I'm thinking of the dwarf/paladin options to get +1 to a save. There probably should be a feat somewhere to allow characters to have a second reaction as long as it is different to their first reaction....




What's Borked: Ready is 2 actions and only gives 1 action.
Why it's a problem: This overly penalizes Ready and forces the DM to say "no, you can't attempt that" to common-language action declarations, like "I get ready to use my Hydraulic Push spell on the first Orc who comes up the ladder."
House Rule:
The Ready action takes the same number of Actions as the Action or Actions you want to Ready. If you take damage or fail a save while you have a Readied action, you don't get to use it. If the trigger doesn't happen before the start of your next turn, you don't get to use it.

OK




What's Borked: Non-proficiency at higher levels.
Why it's a problem: The 15th level monk forgets everything she ever learned about dodging if she puts on a a chain shirt (AC drops from ~35 to ~15.) The 15th level Rogue, possibly the greatest dagger-user in the history of the kingdom, doesn't know which end of a main-gauche goes in the other man (Attack bonus drops from ~+25 to ~+4).
House Rule:
Non-proficiency is "Your Level -2," not flat +0.

Players have plently of skills and feats to take armour and weapon proficiency, this shouldn't really be a problem that needs to be fixed




What's Borked: Weapon proficiency feats.
Why it's a problem: No matter how many feats you throw away, characters who are supposed to use weapons only get to use their class features with their class weapons. This is especially problematic for Monks and Rogues. This is proof that Paizo play-tests with robots. How the hell does "A [my favorite class] who uses [a weapon that I think is cool]" become an unplayable garbage build that no amount of Feats can salvage?
House Rule:
If you are proficient with a weapon, you can count it as a Simple Weapon when applying your class features.

It is a little frustrating how the class features force you to use the standard class weapons and armour. There needs to be a way of opening this up
Maybe a feat to grant the same proficiecny in armour or weapon that you already have for another armour or weapon type.

Cheers

[Gurifu]

Dive-bombing my old thread with a new houserule, despite still having not finished making a character.

What's Borked: Improvised weapons.
Why it's a problem: Since improvised weapons aren't on any of the weapon tables, they don't attach to any proficiencies. At level 20, you're still rolling 1d20 +str -2 to clobber somebody with a wrench.
House Rule: Improvised weapons are Simple Weapons.

[Gwynfrid]

Dive-bombing my old thread with a new houserule, despite still having not finished making a character.

What's Borked: Improvised weapons.
Why it's a problem: Since improvised weapons aren't on any of the weapon tables, they don't attach to any proficiencies. At level 20, you're still rolling 1d20 +str -2 to clobber somebody with a wrench.
House Rule: Improvised weapons are Simple Weapons.

Congratulations: The Paizo team acknowledged that you're right! This rule is part of the official Errata.