Help with creating a Lore Bard build

[TheDwarvenNerd]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for some help in building a Lore Bard. So I'm playing as a half elf and the idea for my character is like a political adviser, someone who knows everything and has plenty of social grace to settle disputes. I plan on taking all of the Intelligence based skills so I can always know something about any topic that gets brought up along with the standard Charisma based skills that bards use all the time. Using point buy I plan on having the follow stats: Str-8, Dex-15, Con-12, Int-13, Wis-10, Cha-14, with +1 racial bonuses going to Dex and Int. Since I plan on having a bunch of Int based skills I figure my Int should be somewhat high.

My issue is I want to pick up a bunch of the low level rituals like comprehend langauges, identify, detect magic because I feel they fit in with the character in wanting to know everything however, I'm not sure how to fit those spells into my character idea because bards only know a limited number of spells and I don't want to be loaded up on ritual spells and not have many other choices for spells to use in battle.

Looking at the bard features I figure I can afford a 2 level dip in another class to gain the ritual spells. So my question is how could I best get the spells I want? Is it worth it to multiclass into another class to gain spells and some other abilities or is the Ritual Caster feat enough by itself? I'm thinking if I were to multiclass I would go into Wizard and get either the Divination or the Bladesinger subclass.

[Ventruenox]

Delaying the level five Bard features is rough, even by a single level. Expertise can help offset a lower attribute score for those INT skills and make the character less MAD. The best Bard spells are save based, so splitting those attribute points between two casting stats may come back to bite you at the table.

That said, the extra cantrips and versatility of ritual spells may be worth it. A second level into Divination for the Portent ability may be what you need to make that save or suck spell stick at a crucial time, despite a beatable DC.

[Keravath]

Hi! I'd think the obvious solution would be to take the Ritual Caster feat which allows you to copy all the rituals from one class into a book and cast them as rituals. You need int or wis 13 as a prerequisite.

Also, as a bard, you probably would like to have a charisma of 16 if possible. You could do that with 8 14 12 14 10 16 as stats for a variant human and take Ritual Caster (wizard) as your level 1 feat.

If you want to be a half-elf you could go with stats 8 16 12 14 10 16 and have an extra starting skill.

If you want to be particularly good at skills - a knowledge cleric 1 dip really helps in a lot of ways for the character concept and build.

Expertise is much more valuable in being good at a skill in the long run than stats. The cleric dip gives you medium armor and shields. Knowledge cleric 1/bard X with stats 8 14 12 12 14 16 gives you better AC, two knowledge skills with expertise, and only drops your stat bonus by +1. Take ritual caster as a level 4 feat. Boost charisma after that.

If you want even more skills -

Rogue 1/Knowledge cleric 1/Bard X - half-elf will give you expertise in 6 skills (including 2 knowledge skills from the cleric) by level 5 as well as proficiency in 16 skills.

Variant human with 8 14 12 10 14 16 can start with the Ritual Caster feat and go 1 Knowledge cleric/X lore bard.

[Vogie]

Other options are:

Going 2 levels into Paladin - that allows you another level of spellcasting, and all of your known utility spells can double as smite fuel. You also gain access to heavy & medium armor, shields, and, potentially, a 3rd level into Redemption paladin also gives you faux-expertise in Charisma(Persuasion) with the channel divinity.
Grabbing 3 levels of Warlock for Tome & Book of Ancient Secrets, allowing access to any 1st and 2nd level rituals, on top of a collection of cantrips and short-rest spell slots. Hexblade gives medium armor while Celestial gives spell-less free bonus action healing.
2 levels of War Magic or Abjuration Wizard increases your defenses more reliably than Bladesinger will for the most part, since you'll keep your intelligence modifier fairly low in comparison to your charisma. War Magic gives you a small boost to initiative and a reliable defense for yourself that won't consume BI dice, while Abjuration catalyzes defensive spells into Faux-False Life by recharging your Ward.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The advantage of the Ritual Caster feat (besides the obvious of not having the multiclass delay in your bard spell progression and abilities) is that you can still get the good, higher-level rituals of the wizard, later on in the game. Are you sure you won't be wanting them? Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Rary's Telepathic Bond?

Is that good enough, or are you really looking for Portent, Shield and Absorb Elements? Don't think there's really a "wrong" answer here.

[TheDwarvenNerd]

Hi! I'd think the obvious solution would be to take the Ritual Caster feat which allows you to copy all the rituals from one class into a book and cast them as rituals. You need int or wis 13 as a prerequisite.

Also, as a bard, you probably would like to have a charisma of 16 if possible. You could do that with 8 14 12 14 10 16 as stats for a variant human and take Ritual Caster (wizard) as your level 1 feat.

If you want to be a half-elf you could go with stats 8 16 12 14 10 16 and have an extra starting skill.

If you want to be particularly good at skills - a knowledge cleric 1 dip really helps in a lot of ways for the character concept and build.

Expertise is much more valuable in being good at a skill in the long run than stats. The cleric dip gives you medium armor and shields. Knowledge cleric 1/bard X with stats 8 14 12 12 14 16 gives you better AC, two knowledge skills with expertise, and only drops your stat bonus by +1. Take ritual caster as a level 4 feat. Boost charisma after that.

If you want even more skills -

Rogue 1/Knowledge cleric 1/Bard X - half-elf will give you expertise in 6 skills (including 2 knowledge skills from the cleric) by level 5 as well as proficiency in 16 skills.

Variant human with 8 14 12 10 14 16 can start with the Ritual Caster feat and go 1 Knowledge cleric/X lore bard.

I never thought about taking a level of Knowledge Cleric. But I feel like it can tie into my character idea very well. If I change my starting stats to Str-8, Dex-15, Con-12, Int-10, Wis- 13 Cha 14; and have +1 racial bonus in Dex and Wis from half elf that will get me the pre-requisites for Cleric along with being able to take Ritual Caster (Wizard) at my first ASI. And even though my Int mod is 0 with having Expertise from the Cleric class feature my skill bonus will be much higher.

Thank you very much for the idea.

[Keravath]

I never thought about taking a level of Knowledge Cleric. But I feel like it can tie into my character idea very well. If I change my starting stats to Str-8, Dex-15, Con-12, Int-10, Wis- 13 Cha 14; and have +1 racial bonus in Dex and Wis from half elf that will get me the pre-requisites for Cleric along with being able to take Ritual Caster (Wizard) at my first ASI. And even though my Int mod is 0 with having Expertise from the Cleric class feature my skill bonus will be much higher.

Thank you very much for the idea.

The only comment I would have ... the cleric allows you to wear medium armor and you are unlikely to boost your dex to increase your AC since you will need the ASI for other things. So I would tend to stick to 14 dex and use the extra points to boost your int.

str-10 dex-13 con-12 int-12 wis-13 cha-14 -> with half-elf stat boosts +1 dex, +1 wis, +2 char-> 10 14 12 12 14 16 or 8 14 13 13 14 16 (if you want to take resilient con later - or a level in wizard)

Weapon attacks will be at +2 instead of +3 for the first few levels but as soon as you reach level 5 you won't be using weapons much at all whereas the 12 int would seem to fit the type of character you want to create.

[TheDwarvenNerd]

So after much thought I now have a better idea of the character in my mind. I’m going to make my character similar to the Greek God Apollo who has the domains Knowledge, Life and Light. My plan is to build a half elf 1 Knowledge cleric/1 Divine Soul/18 Lore bard. Knowledge cleric will get me expertise in two knowledge skills and proficiency with shields and medium armor, Divine Soul sorcerer will get me some damaging cantrips and the Favored of the Gods feature and Lore bard will get me all the bardic goodness to be a great skill monkey and a spell caster focusing on support/healing. My stats will be: Str-8, Dex-13, Con-14, Int-11, Wis-13, Cha 14; with +1 to Dex +1 to Int and +2 Cha.

For feats I plan on using my first ASI to pick up Ritual Caster (wizard) to grab all those excellent utility spells like Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, and Identify without taking up my precious spells known. After that my next two ASI’s will go to +2 Cha to bring Cha to 20. I’m not sure what to do with my last ASI, possible choices I’ve been thinking of are Inspiring Leader, Resilient (Con), or War Caster. Any suggestions are welcome.

Now the hardest part of the build is deciding what spells to take. As I said before I plan on focusing on healing/support so here are some of the choices I’m thinking of:

Healing: Healing Word, Lesser/Greater Restoration, Raise Dead

Debuff/Control: Vicious Mockery, Bane, Dissonant Whispers, Hypnotic Pattern, Synaptic Static, Otto’s Irresistible Dance, Forcecage

Divination: Clairvoyance, Scrying, True Seeing

Lately for my Magical Secrets here is the list of possible spells I’m thinking of: Aura of Vitality, Counterspell, Find Greater Steed, Bigby’s Hand, Destructive Wave, Circle of Power, Crown of Stars, Holy Aura, Wish

So any suggestions about spells that I forgot about that would fit in with the theme of my build will be very much appreciated.

[Bobthewizard]

This looks good to me.

I would use the two sorcerer spells on shield and absorb elements. Make sure you take guidance as one of your cantrips, then take a couple damaging cantrips. This whole combo is really helpful on a bard.

For level 6 magical secrets, I like counterspell and either spirit guardians or conjure animals. With medium armor and a shield from cleric and shield spell from the sorcerer, you will hold up fine in melee for spirit guardians. Use hypnotic pattern if you can avoid friendly fire or spirit guardians if you can't.

At level 10, I like find greater steed and wall of force, or whichever of spirit guardians or conjure animals I didn't take at 6. The paladin auras are great on a paladin, but with a bard I like to use my concentration to debuff or control the battlefield.

Polymorph is another spell you might want to work into your spell list. It's a great spell and conjure animals, polymorph and find greater steed make a nice theme together.

For your last ASI, I'd take Resilient CON.

When do you plan to take your cleric and sorcerer levels? I like to wait until after bard 6 for magical secrets but I can see taking cleric earlier to get the armor and expertise.

[TheDwarvenNerd]

This looks good to me.

I would use the two sorcerer spells on shield and absorb elements. Make sure you take guidance as one of your cantrips, then take a couple damaging cantrips. This whole combo is really helpful on a bard.

For level 6 magical secrets, I like counterspell and either spirit guardians or conjure animals. With medium armor and a shield from cleric and shield spell from the sorcerer, you will hold up fine in melee for spirit guardians. Use hypnotic pattern if you can avoid friendly fire or spirit guardians if you can't.

At level 10, I like find greater steed and wall of force, or whichever of spirit guardians or conjure animals I didn't take at 6. The paladin auras are great on a paladin, but with a bard I like to use my concentration to debuff or control the battlefield.

Polymorph is another spell you might want to work into your spell list. It's a great spell and conjure animals, polymorph and find greater steed make a nice theme together.

For your last ASI, I'd take Resilient CON.

When do you plan to take your cleric and sorcerer levels? I like to wait until after bard 6 for magical secrets but I can see taking cleric earlier to get the armor and expertise.

I plan to start out with one level bard then one level cleric to get medium armor and shields. After that I will take bard to 6th level to get magical secrets, take sorcerer and take bard the rest of the way.

[Bobthewizard]

I plan to start out with one level bard then one level cleric to get medium armor and shields. After that I will take bard to 6th level to get magical secrets, take sorcerer and take bard the rest of the way.

Yep. That's how I would do it. Sounds like a fun character.

[Lyracian]

I plan to start out with one level bard then one level cleric to get medium armor and shields. After that I will take bard to 6th level to get magical secrets, take sorcerer and take bard the rest of the way.
If you are taking Cleric before six then starting Cleric gets you Wisdom save to start. If you use custom backgrounds to start with one musical instrument you then get a second when you Multiclass

[Lyracian]

For level 6 magical secrets, I like counterspell and either spirit guardians or conjure animals. With medium armor and a shield from cleric and shield spell from the sorcerer, you will hold up fine in melee for spirit guardians. Use hypnotic pattern if you can avoid friendly fire or spirit guardians if you can't.

At level 10, I like find greater steed and wall of force, or whichever of spirit guardians or conjure animals I didn't take at 6. The paladin auras are great on a paladin, but with a bard I like to use my concentration to debuff or control the battlefield.

I very much agree on Magical Secrets Options
MS6: Counter spell, Conjure Animals or Fireball
MS10: Find Greater Steed, Wall of Force or Transmute Rock; Death Ward was another one I was considering with no cleric in the party and it transfers to our Steed.
MS14: Contingency, Heal, Wall of Thorns, Wind Walk, Reverse Gravity
MS18: Wish, Mass Heal

[diplomancer]

If you are taking Cleric before six then starting Cleric gets you Wisdom save to start. If you use custom backgrounds to start with one musical instrument you then get a second when you Multiclass

I agree with this; if you are not planning on regularly using weapons, starting as a Cleric is probably better (as long as you want at least 2 of the cleric skills), since Wis saves are more worrying than Dex saves (this is very slightly mitigated by you being a half-elf, but still true). With a background that gives you a musical instrument, that even makes the transition into Bard easier.

[Theodoxus]

In my opinion, since you know your final build, and have 3 classes, decide which you want to start with.

Bard gets you proficiency in Dexterity saves. They get 3 skills, but multiclassing into it, grants you that 3rd skill anyway, so no harm.
Cleric gets you proficiency in Wisdom saves. All the benefits of Knowledge come online regardless of when you take the class, so again, no harm.
Sorcerer gets you proficiency in Constitution saves - which can be pretty important, especially on a support class. Though you'll be 2 hit points behind the other two options.

If your party make up has sufficient frontliners, where you know you'll be able to live with only 7 hit points at 1st level, I'd strongly suggest going sorcerer first - it saves you a feat for resilient Con, and there are other options for dealing with Dex and Wis saves that aren't as readily available for Con saves (especially concentration checks).

If I were doing this, I'd simply go Sorc/Cleric/Bard 18. It brings all the things you want online fastest, though the delay in bardic abilities can be a liability, you'll have 2nd level slots to upcast any of your spells, which can be good (Bless in particular is a great option for a 2nd level slot if you have 4 or more in your party).

[Lyracian]

Sorcerer gets you proficiency in Constitution saves - which can be pretty important, especially on a support class. Though you'll be 2 hit points behind the other two options.
The good news is once you get to second level you are only 1 HP behind taking the average HP each level
Sorcerer 6 HP + Cleric 5 = 11 HP
Cleric 8 HP + Sorcerer 4 = 12 HP



If your party make up has sufficient frontliners, where you know you'll be able to live with only 7 hit points at 1st level, I'd strongly suggest going sorcerer first - it saves you a feat for resilient Con, and there are other options for dealing with Dex and Wis saves that aren't as readily available for Con saves (especially concentration checks).
What are you options for dealing with Wiz saves? I rather like having proficiency with Wiz and Con saves on a character.