Skills that a Face should have

[Stone-Ears]

Hey y'all, so I'm very new to 3.5e and it is so much different than 5e which I am used to

I made a Bard for a Play by Post campaign I'm meaning to join and naturally, I'm going to be the Face of the party. My charisma is 16 at level 5 with a cloak of charisma +2 = 18. So my Charisma ability modifier is 4 and I can legally put in 8 ranks to any skills.

I am wondering what skills do a face have to have in order to serve his/her party to the best of their abilities? I recorded all skills above 5 below and I can change around some of these if I'm missing a critical skill for a bardic face

Appraise = 6 (just figured it'd be good to be able to know how much stuff is worth but of all the skills I'm thinking this one is the most disposable)
Bluff = 12 (Planning on master of masks prestige class)
Diplomacy = 14
Disguise = 12 (Planning on master of masks prestige class)
Gather Information = 14
Knowledge History = 7 (Was recommended to put +5 ranks in history to boost bardic knowledge)
Move Silently = 10(Always good to be able to be sneaky sneaky)
Perform = 12

Thanks for any input you guys might have! I'm just trying to make sure I serve my party well as a face in 3.5e

[Cygnia]

*ahem*

SENSE MOTIVE

How else are you're gonna know when NPCs try to BS you? Plus, you can use it to assess opponent beforehand and know when to run away

[Stone-Ears]

*ahem*

SENSE MOTIVE

How else are you're gonna know when NPCs try to BS you? Plus, you can use it to assess opponent beforehand and know when to run away

BIG OOF! I dunno how I missed that one. Looks like I'm going to be taking out all the ranks of Appraise and put that into sense Motive and maybe take out some in the others I put rank in since my bard has absolutely no wisdom whatsoever

[denthor]

Use magic device is big in our game.

[Stone-Ears]

Use magic device is big in our game.

Why is use magic device a charisma check, if anything this seems like it should be a intelligence check. Like oof, that doesn't make sense to me, uncharismatic magic people are doomed

[Telonius]

Agreed that Appraise is probably the most disposable one. Occasionally you'll run into a DM that wants Appraise checks, so you might want a rank or two, but it's not a huge thing.

If you have extra skill points lying around, investing 5 ranks in Knowledge (Nobility) will give you +2 synergy to Diplomacy. Sense Motive as well, but that's been covered.

Regarding Master of Masks - I'd really recommend that you only take two levels of the prestige class. Otherwise it really cripples your spellcasting (at 4/10 casting advancement) and doesn't advance your Bardic Music at all. Gladiator, Faceless, and Lord are the three masks that would be generally beneficial to you. After that, you hit diminishing returns very quickly.

[liquidformat]

Appraise = 6 (just figured it'd be good to be able to know how much stuff is worth but of all the skills I'm thinking this one is the most disposable)
Bluff = 12 (Planning on master of masks prestige class)
Diplomacy = 14
Disguise = 12 (Planning on master of masks prestige class)
Gather Information = 14
Knowledge History = 7 (Was recommended to put +5 ranks in history to boost bardic knowledge)
Move Silently = 10(Always good to be able to be sneaky sneaky)
Perform = 12

I don't think I have ever been in a game where appraise was used, identify and detect magic are the normal go to for item ID. In fact it is debatable if you can use appraise on magic items beyond being able to tell someone it is of masterwork quality...

If you are going move silently you will also need hide and in either case either pump them or ignore them.

Knowledge history is kind of a waste of time, I actually normally trade away bardic knowledge for lore song or even bardic knack.


Why is use magic device a charisma check, if anything this seems like it should be a intelligence check. Like oof, that doesn't make sense to me, uncharismatic magic people are doomed

The idea is you are trying to pretend to be a wizard/cleric/druid/race to activate an item which is a charisma thing though I could see it going either way...

[Troacctid]

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are key and should be maxed out. You also want 5 ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty) for the synergy bonus to Diplomacy, and I recommend investing in relevant skill tricks (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VSz3GaCBQeXsTWTSBppmd7J0qUBg19d1KaBGGwMeyZg/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=109899719619589059697) as well.

Other social skills to consider are Disguise, Forgery, and Gather Information, all of which are most useful in urban campaigns.

[Stone-Ears]

Sounds like a shift in what knowledge I'm skilled in may be necessary.

Question: Is Bardic Knowledge useful in y'all's experience or is it something that seems like it'd be cool but rarely gets used. I do like the suggestion of Knowledge in nobility and royalty for the boost to diplomacy which I've read is pretty much the king of face skills.

I'm pondering halving move silently since it is starting to look like I won't need to be a sneaky type with someone who is planning on Master of Shrouds class. I haven't read up on that but what little I Know from what they've said is it sounds pretty rougish to me.

[Telonius]

In my experience, Bardic Knowledge could be renamed, "Locate Plot Hook." It's one of those things that can give you a crucial piece of information (that your DM might or might not want you to know), if it works. If it doesn't, you generally find out anyway (through deliberate exposition by the DM, or unpleasant surprises in going in without full information).

[Calthropstu]

I feel that the ability to receive punches should definitely be a skill a face should have.

[Efrate]

You can ignore stealth. A silence spell and invisibility will do more than hide and move silently the vast majority of the time.

Diplomacy or Intimidate
Bluff
Sense Motive

These are your must haves.

If in a mostly urban setting add:

Gather Information
Disguise

Depending on setting, these can be great if they are not hand waved or your dm doesn't want to use them.

Forgery
Decipher script

Always good:

Use magic device. Magic rules in 3.5. More magic is always better. You can literally invalidate every skill with this alone and a good working knowledge of spells.

Knowledge skills are a mixed bag. In a campaign where you must interact with a lot of courts these can be great.

Nobility and royalty
History

Or just use lore and ignore all knowledges.

Also perform because bard.

Other notables:

Autohypnosis, if you can get it as a class skill has some neat tricks.
Spot, search and listen: If you can afford then they are not bad to have.
Escape artist and tumble help get you out of bad situations, you likely cannot afford them but they are nice.
5 ranks of balance can help if you can sneak them in. Not being FF can be a lifesaver.

[Troacctid]

Bardic knowledge is kind of a catch-all knowledge skill that you can roll for basically any situation, whether it's monster knowledge, magical lore, history, whatever. So basically you can either just roll it all the time and not worry about putting ranks in other Knowledge skills—or if you do put ranks in other Knowledge skills, you can roll bardic knowledge on top of them and have two shots at learning the relevant info instead of one. So it's definitely a useful skill if you like to know what's going on.

The ACFs that replace it are lore song and bardic knack. They're both strong as well, but for different things. Lore song provides a substantial bonus to almost any roll, including combat-relevant ones, but has limited daily uses, so it's great for the important saves and skill checks that you really want to pass. Bardic knack allows you to dabble a little bit in lots of different skills, emphasizing the bard's role as the jack of all trades, master of none.

Of course there's also the variant that trades it for an animal companion, which is actually awesome for single-class bards, but you have to give up inspire courage and inspire competence as well.

I personally like lore song. All of them are fine choices, though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Why is use magic device a charisma check, if anything this seems like it should be a intelligence check. Like oof, that doesn't make sense to me, uncharismatic magic people are doomed

Intelligence would be using the device as intended, and you don't need a check for that. Charisma is imposing your will on it anyways, through force of personality or cunning trickery. The training/practice/study it takes to be able to do that is represented by the skill ranks, rather than the ability it keys off of.

That said, I could totally see a feat, class feature, or something that let you use intelligence instead. I don't know of any, but I wouldn't bat an eye if they did exist.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Why is use magic device a charisma check, if anything this seems like it should be a intelligence check. Like oof, that doesn't make sense to me, uncharismatic magic people are doomed

Wands are secretly one big farce. They work by making you look so pityful waving your little stick around that a nearby wizard will feel sorry for you and cast the spell you want. And that would be a charisma check.

Replace the nearby wizard with an invisible nature spirit or a god and you could make this actual canon in a setting.

[RatElemental]

Wands are secretly one big farce. They work by making you look so pityful waving your little stick around that a nearby wizard will feel sorry for you and cast the spell you want. And that would be a charisma check.

Replace the nearby wizard with an invisible nature spirit or a god and you could make this actual canon in a setting.

I once read a book called wizardology that basically said that's how magic worked, actually.

[Stone-Ears]

Ok so after I took some of y'all's suggestion, I somehow wound up with +19 on diplomacy check. That seems a weeeeeeeee bit broken y'all.

But...I'm not too sad about that. Thanks to y'all for helping me be a better face.

[Telonius]

It can get even higher than that if you're trying to optimize for Diplomacy specifically. A level of Warlock for Beguiling Influence gets you +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate; Circlet of Persuasion gets you +3 competence to all Charisma-based checks; there are a bunch of others. It gets pretty absurd pretty quickly. With just a little bit of optimization some DMs get blindsided by just how powerful a dedicated Diplomancer can be.

[Cygnia]

A couple levels of Marshal can be sexy on that front too for a Diplomancer. The one-two punch of the Motivate Charisma minor aura and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) is pretty slick.

[Troacctid]

Nymph's Kiss is a great feat too. It's an extra +2 to all Charisma-based checks, which includes your social skills and also the Charisma check to manipulate someone's actions with charm person. Another strong one is Practiced Binder (requires Bind Vestige as a prerequisite)—it lets you gain Naberius's Silver Tongue ability, which allows you to always take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks and make your Diplomacy checks as a standard action with no penalty.

[liquidformat]

Nymph's Kiss is a great feat too. It's an extra +2 to all Charisma-based checks, which includes your social skills and also the Charisma check to manipulate someone's actions with charm person. Another strong one is Practiced Binder (requires Bind Vestige as a prerequisite)—it lets you gain Naberius's Silver Tongue ability, which allows you to always take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks and make your Diplomacy checks as a standard action with no penalty.

Nymph's Kiss also gives you bonus skill points so it is very advisable to take as a level one feat.

[Troacctid]

And let's not forget Spawn of the Dark Prince from Dragon #359, which gives +10 to Bluff at the cost of -2 to Spot; and Hidden Talent from Expanded Psionics Handbook, which gives you 2 power points and the ability to manifest conceal thoughts as a 1st level manifester, for another +10 to Bluff (and each manifesting lasts a full hour).