Making save rolls for your players.

[Drackstin]

I know sometimes asking your players to make a Will/fort/reflex save randomly sometimes gives away something that happening in your story. such as if your doing a horror themed side quest or someone being poisoned. so i wanted to ask how some other DM/GM go about this. I know you can just pull DM is god and they dont get a saving throw, or you can make the rolls for them and have their saves on hand for it. but i wanted to see what other people do, since i don't like playing god mode just for the story and asking a player to roll a will save or be scared is kind of lame.

[Silvercrys]

I know a lot of DMs like to have secret rolls for suspense or whatever. Which is fine. You can just get your player's saves at the beginning of the session and roll their saves for them and tell them what happens, make random rolls so they never know what's a real roll and what isn't, etc. Works most of the time.

But some players have rerolls and stuff for their saves that they might want to use. I usually don't bother. You can have the atmosphere of a creepy cave or something by playing music or setting the mood in other ways; asking your players for a save out of the blue without telling them what's going on (especially when they aren't in combat rounds) is usually enough to shift the mood by itself, in my experience, though I don't tend to surprise my players with poison or an ambush terribly often so it has a bigger impact when it does happen.

Perception for traps is a bit different, I usually just check passive perception unless someone specifically says they look for traps, then I let them roll and compare that roll to the next trap in the area, if there is one. Though most of my traps are "set pieces" like the room filling with water trap, not pressure plate+poison arrow, so noticing the trap just lets you bypass the "encounter" rather than saving you HP.

[Khedrac]

I ask players for a bunch (usually 3, but up to 10 depending on what they are likely to encounter) D20 rolls at the start of the session.
I also ask for their relevant modifiers (spot, listen, sense motive and will save).

This way, the a character encounters something that that the player should not know about unless they make the check, the player's roll is the dice that it used.

It once came close to backfiring - a lilitu demon was posing as a helpful NPC and I knew that half my players would have their characters try and make out with her - which I predicted would lead to half the party being dominated by her when they finally got to fight. In practice two of my players surprised me (unusual characters for them) but one who I was unsure about managed to have his natural 20 roll come up as his character's save v. dominate person - since the next roll was a natural 1 I decided that the demon's forget spell would wipe out memory of making the save, but also that she wasn't going to try and dominate anyone else as the party was just too risky.

Edit: Rerolls is an interesting point I had not considered - I think if it's a save (rare) and they fail it I will at that point take the player aside to see if they want to use their reroll. The main reason I do this is to avoid the old "DM asked for a spot check so there must be something there" behaviour at which point I don't think use of a reroll is appropriate.

[Drackstin]

My players are very paranoid as it is. my one PC stabs every chest, box, crate because i like mimics, and the also has multiple mirrors because i like traps. but this is mostly due to the fact that his character was stuck in a maze for a month and everything that could go wrong did (don't anger a elder dragon that's bored, he had a pocket dimension maze set up just to throw the group in and watch them die for his entertainment)

I just feel like some rolls take away from the surroundings, I'm planing an event for my PC that once they enter a Bar with a stage and they are within earshot of something it has an effect on them, i feel like if i make them roll, they will just assume its something bad and want nothing to do with the place and leave.

[heavyfuel]

Seconding everything Silvercrys said. Secret rolls are fine, but be aware of stuff like rerolls and circumstancial bonuses.

Rerolls are tricky because you definitely shouldn't be the one deciding when a player gets to reroll. No idea how to go about it though.

Also, Fort and Will saves should have some non-mechanical effect even if character passes. If you pass a Will save vs a poison you unknowingly ingested, even if you don't take the ability damage, the character shoud feel slightly queasy or light-headed for a bit (again, no mechanical penalty). So secret saves don't make that much of a sense

[Rynjin]

Typically I only roll saves for my players in very rare circumstances, those circumstances being effects they have ZERO knowledge of. If osmebody gets sprayed in the face with a chemical, I tell them to roll a Fort save. I don't necessarily tell them the result directly, but they know something funky happened.

Diseases are my most common behind-the-scenes rolls and those are the most consistent. Most diseases have an onset of 1d6 days or some such so if they fail, I don't tell them they're sick until they're a day or two out from getting hit.

I will also sometimes roll for my players in Play by Posts just to keep things going, but it's rolled openly and they can interact with it however they please with re-rolls, bonuses I forgot about, etc.


Seconding everything Silvercrys said. Secret rolls are fine, but be aware of stuff like rerolls and circumstancial bonuses.

Rerolls are tricky because you definitely shouldn't be the one deciding when a player gets to reroll. No idea how to go about it though.

Also, Fort and Will saves should have some non-mechanical effect even if character passes. If you pass a Will save vs a poison you unknowingly ingested, even if you don't take the ability damage, the character shoud feel slightly queasy or light-headed for a bit (again, no mechanical penalty). So secret saves don't make that much of a sense

Saves vs spells should almost always be known to the player, at least in Pathfinder, since there is an explicit rule that if a character passes a save they know they were affected by a spell. The only exception is people with the very rare abilities like Subtle Enchantment which can actually make their magic undetectable.

[Drackstin]

So I ran a session where my PC get lured into an abandoned church. I told the players that as they entered they got a very bad feeling of dread. As the explored the ruins their save scores would go down. I took one of the PC backstories and turned it on him. Making an illusion of his imprisoned dad appear before him, asking for help.
Asking for a will same made the whole thing just turn into a joke. "Oh it's an illusion, so whatever" and even when the boss of the area came out and panicked the whole group it kind of didn't matter because they thought is was all fake and just disbelieved everything until they started really getting attacked.
I feel that is situation that asking for a save would ruin the entire encounter. That DM rolls should be used. Using the PC saves of course.
Since both my BBEG and my 2nd in command are bards. Things like illusions come up alot, fear effects and terror. And taking away from their
Other things like direct spells, or poison I ask for saves.

[Rynjin]

So I ran a session where my PC get lured into an abandoned church. I told the players that as they entered they got a very bad feeling of dread. As the explored the ruins their save scores would go down. I took one of the PC backstories and turned it on him. Making an illusion of his imprisoned dad appear before him, asking for help.
Asking for a will same made the whole thing just turn into a joke. "Oh it's an illusion, so whatever" and even when the boss of the area came out and panicked the whole group it kind of didn't matter because they thought is was all fake and just disbelieved everything until they started really getting attacked.
I feel that is situation that asking for a save would ruin the entire encounter. That DM rolls should be used. Using the PC saves of course.
Since both my BBEG and my 2nd in command are bards. Things like illusions come up alot, fear effects and terror. And taking away from their
Other things like direct spells, or poison I ask for saves.

This is pretty bad metagaming. My first instinct would be that it's a Haunt, rather than an illusion.

Knowing (or thinking) a Haunt is around is even scarier than being blindsided by one, since there's basically jack-all you can do about it either way. =p

[Drackstin]

This is pretty bad metagaming. My first instinct would be that it's a Haunt, rather than an illusion.

Knowing (or thinking) a Haunt is around is even scarier than being blindsided by one, since there's basically jack-all you can do about it either way. =p

I think i need to start looking into to the more obscure special abilities of monsters, one of my players metagames very badly treating it like a video game. the other PCs are just paranoid. my last session they walked into a opening in a sewer, saw a NPC fighting troglodytes and when he killed one, they all ran, no saves no nothing, its just what 3/4 of the group did, never even asked who it was or what they look like, just said "stuff is getting killed im out"

[Ashlan78]

As a player I HATE the DM rolling for me. If you do decide to do this though, make absolutely sure you know EVERYTHING the player can do and their immunities, because the first time you make a mistake and have a player affected by something without telling them and they realize they shouldn't have been, you lose all trust.

[Drackstin]

As a player I HATE the DM rolling for me. If you do decide to do this though, make absolutely sure you know EVERYTHING the player can do and their immunities, because the first time you make a mistake and have a player affected by something without telling them and they realize they shouldn't have been, you lose all trust.

This is why we have the character sheets, all special immunites are on the sheet and all special features or gear that prevent something are on the sheet. also knowing your PC is part of the game. if a DM says you fall asleep and your an elf, that's just him not doing his research and letting the story takeover.

I would rather make saves for my characters though then mess up any build up or suspense that's going on. nothing kills a mood more then "make a saving throw" especially for Illusions and fear. but it also matters how the group is. having a player that thinks he knows everything and assumes any mind effecting saving throw is an illusion and doesn't matter sucks until you teach them a very hard lesson. but if your group is just scared of what you can do, calling for a saving throw can also heighten the mood too. there is a lot that goes into making a campaign scenario, adding in all the effects needed, and running it for the players that just need to pick up a sheet and go.

[Ken Murikumo]

I make passive perception checks (pathfinder) for my players. If they are on guard or actively searching, they roll their own.

I also make some Fort & Will saves for them depending on whether the effect is normally detectable.

I don't roll reflex checks for them, because they will never make a reflex and not know it.

To be clear, i have a record of their immunities, resistances, situational bonuses, etc...

[Drackstin]

I make passive perception checks (pathfinder) for my players. If they are on guard or actively searching, they roll their own.

I also make some Fort & Will saves for them depending on whether the effect is normally detectable.

I don't roll reflex checks for them, because they will never make a reflex and not know it.

To be clear, i have a record of their immunities, resistances, situational bonuses, etc...

This is pretty good guideline i think also. Sometimes i will ask for a spot check to see if they noticed anything that might be a smaller detail. like something they may have passively not seen, but since it would have been odd, or moved that would draw attention.

[Silvercrys]

Well, you have to physically interact with an illusion to even get a save to disbelieve, I'm pretty sure. You don't get to make a save as soon as one comes into view, that's what makes them so powerful.

But yeah it sounds like at least that one player is metagaming pretty badly, playing like it's a video game and nothing bad is going to happen. Stuff like DnD requires some amount of player buy in and it sounds like he doesn't want the immersive RPG experience -- which is fine, but maybe your GM style isn't the best fit for him.

I'm the closest thing my regular group has to a metagamer, but the other players and GM aren't, and out of courtesy I don't (generally) announce metagame thoughts or monster stats even though I have most of them memorized (partly because I'm an off-and-on GM, as well), and they don't generally force me to roleplay (I generally let the party Face do the talking and go along to get along with the group). I'll play along with a failed will save for illusions and stuff like that because I'm "supposed" to, and I try to act in character when it's appropriate, but I'm happiest with a series of combat encounters in front of me. In my mind, that's what the d20 system and derivatives are best at, if you want immersive role-playing you should use a different system that supports it better. You absolutely can do that with a d20 game, but it isn't designed for it and it requires a lot more player buy-in, in my experience.

So, you've basically got two options, here.

You can take the player aside and say, "hey, I know it's just a game but it isn't cool when you have your character act with out of game knowledge, like when you failed your will save but thought out of game that it was an illusion so you ignored it anyway. I'd appreciate it if you tried to act in character more."

Or you can try a less crunchy system once this campaign wraps up -- stuff like that is much easier in a stats-heavy game like DnD/Pathfinder because they sort of instinctively feel like video games with their levels and stuff. I could write an essay just about how cool Fate Accelerated is for immersive storytelling, probably, and there's a whole world of smaller name RPGs with really good storytelling mechanics like Dogs in the Vineyard and Tenra Bansho Zero. Should probably hop over to the general RPG subforum or PM me if you want to talk more about other systems, though.

And maybe do both, yeah? Even in a system better equipped for story telling you'll need him to buy in to the story and his character. In the end, it sounds like the kind of game he's looking for isn't the kind of game you want to run. Changing systems might communicate that more clearly but if he just wants to play a tabletop video game he probably won't find Fate Accelerated fun or interesting.

[Drackstin]

Well, you have to physically interact with an illusion to even get a save to disbelieve, I'm pretty sure. You don't get to make a save as soon as one comes into view, that's what makes them so powerful.

But yeah it sounds like at least that one player is metagaming pretty badly, playing like it's a video game and nothing bad is going to happen. Stuff like DnD requires some amount of player buy in and it sounds like he doesn't want the immersive RPG experience -- which is fine, but maybe your GM style isn't the best fit for him.

I'm the closest thing my regular group has to a metagamer, but the other players and GM aren't, and out of courtesy I don't (generally) announce metagame thoughts or monster stats even though I have most of them memorized (partly because I'm an off-and-on GM, as well), and they don't generally force me to roleplay (I generally let the party Face do the talking and go along to get along with the group). I'll play along with a failed will save for illusions and stuff like that because I'm "supposed" to, and I try to act in character when it's appropriate, but I'm happiest with a series of combat encounters in front of me. In my mind, that's what the d20 system and derivatives are best at, if you want immersive role-playing you should use a different system that supports it better. You absolutely can do that with a d20 game, but it isn't designed for it and it requires a lot more player buy-in, in my experience.

So, you've basically got two options, here.

You can take the player aside and say, "hey, I know it's just a game but it isn't cool when you have your character act with out of game knowledge, like when you failed your will save but thought out of game that it was an illusion so you ignored it anyway. I'd appreciate it if you tried to act in character more."

Or you can try a less crunchy system once this campaign wraps up -- stuff like that is much easier in a stats-heavy game like DnD/Pathfinder because they sort of instinctively feel like video games with their levels and stuff. I could write an essay just about how cool Fate Accelerated is for immersive storytelling, probably, and there's a whole world of smaller name RPGs with really good storytelling mechanics like Dogs in the Vineyard and Tenra Bansho Zero. Should probably hop over to the general RPG subforum or PM me if you want to talk more about other systems, though.

And maybe do both, yeah? Even in a system better equipped for story telling you'll need him to buy in to the story and his character. In the end, it sounds like the kind of game he's looking for isn't the kind of game you want to run. Changing systems might communicate that more clearly but if he just wants to play a tabletop video game he probably won't find Fate Accelerated fun or interesting.

Well this is the same player that took weeks making a very bad build because he thought it would be good and ended up being useless. took flaws for extra feats, (war a fighter human so started off with 4 feats all together) and still couldn't do anything. the flaw he had made him want to set traps off with his face, so he took a level in rouge to find them easier. just looked at his phone when i talked about anything other then fighting, and when fighting was useless because he couldn't fight at all. even after i gave him some a lot of help to fix everything and gave him gear so he wouldn't be bad, he was still bad. so im guessing its my fault for trying to tie in his backstory into the campaign. even though he wrote a 3 page back story. basically he spent so much time on his character, but if it didn't involve "i swing my sword" he didn't care.

Now i have a large amount of combat in my games, and some story and RP elements but not much. and i feel the mechanics are just fine in this system for RP, but i guess its also how your player sees the game. he was the only one i ever had a problem with. all the other players were fine. other then a little paranoid.

[16bearswutIdo]

I'll do secret rolls for illusions, enchantments sometimes, poisons, or things the PCs might not be aware of. I ask to borrow their sheet for the roll, but don't explain what I'm rolling. I look over their sheets for any immunities/bonuses/rerolls/etc. As far as I'm concerned, if it isn't recorded on their sheet it doesn't exist and I won't feel bad for not applying it.

[Drackstin]

I'll do secret rolls for illusions, enchantments sometimes, poisons, or things the PCs might not be aware of. I ask to borrow their sheet for the roll, but don't explain what I'm rolling. I look over their sheets for any immunizes/bonuses/rerolls/etc. As far as I'm concerned, if it isn't recorded on their sheet it doesn't exist and I won't feel bad for not applying it.

I defiantly like the idea of DM rolling for saves the players wouldn't know happened. I Normal jot down info like AC and saves before we start a session just so i can make attack rolls faster. also enemies casters are normally smart enough to pick targets with bad saves, but they still need to make the rolls to see if they can figure it out just by appearance.

My players will tell me if they cast spells or use buffs, but most are very casual and don't do much of that. But the players that do are the metagamers that's why i want to roll for them on saves because they just don't make some situations fun for the rest of the group by out of game call outs.