Building A Better Bogun

[Palanan]

Ever since the bogun appeared in Masters of the Wild, I’ve been trying to figure out exactly what to do with it.

As written, it hardly seems worth the effort. It requires a feat investment and a finicky, time-consuming ritual to create a little lump of compost (official game term) that usually obeys your commands, is capable of moving small objects and—if sufficiently incensed—brushes against things with nettles. Harsh nettles, we're told.

The only really useful ability is to serve as a slightly improved, always-on clairvoyance sensor, but this has a range limitation of 500 feet, and a druid typically has better options. By the time you’re high enough level to create a bogun, it doesn’t seem worth the trouble.

This is a real disappointment, because I like the idea of a plant-assistant serving a druid. The bogun is a fun, flavorful concept, but I feel like it should be able to do more.

So, apart from removing the range limitation, what else could be done to improve it?

[unseenmage]

Traditionally, minions require equipment to not suck.

[frogglesmash]

Boguns actually got updated in MMII. The range for the scrying/telepathy effect was increased to 1500 feat, and the Beget Bogun spell is now a 1st level spell instead of a 4th level spell. Oh, also, their charisma was raised from 10 to 11, which is great because it makes your compost robot that much sexier.
Considering they only cost a week, and 25 xp to make, so making a ton of them is pretty cost effective, and from there it's just a matter of finding uses for an army of compost slaves that are in constant telepathic communication with you.

EDIT: If you want to play an evil druid, you can sacrifice goats, using the BoVD sacrifice rules, to cover the xp cost. Assuming you're only making the minimum, DC 15 Knowledge religion check, each goat you sacrifice should net you 45 dark craft xp, enough to make 1.8 boguns.

[weckar]

If you want to play an evil druid, you can sacrifice goats, using the BoVD sacrifice rules, to cover the xp cost. Assuming you're only making the minimum, DC 15 Knowledge religion check, each goat you sacrifice should net you 45 dark craft xp, enough to make 1.8 boguns.I thought those rules specifically stated that the sacrifice has to be an intelligent creature? Not that I'd mind seeing what that .8 bogun looks like...

[frogglesmash]

I thought those rules specifically stated that the sacrifice has to be an intelligent creature? Not that I'd mind seeing what that .8 bogun looks like...

Sacrifices need an int of 3 or higher, so either cast Fox's Cunning on the goat, or give it a headband of intellect, and boom, valid sacrifice.

[Quertus]

Right, so…

1) how large of a population of goats do you need to be able to sacrifice 1/day? 1/1.8 days?
1b) do you earn XP for killing the goat?
2) how many people can you feed with that much goat meat? That much goat milk/cheese?
3) how much money would you make selling the goat meat / milk / cheese / wool / wool clothing/blankets?
4) how long would it take to save up to afford a Headband of Intellect +2?
5) what races live that long? What races are optimal goatherds?
6) rules for PC Cyclops?

Obviously, the bogun will primarily be employed in the family business, as goatherds.

[DrMotives]

The Beget Bogun spell being lowered to level 1 means nothing, as in order for it to work you first have to cast a level 2 & a level 4 spell. It always seemed to me that boguns were made by someone who refused to see how making magic items in 3.x differed from 2e, as there's no real justification for not just requiring that crafting a bogun requires the other 2 spells and feat, and maybe a "must be a druid" clause. Either way, someone with a scroll can UMD past those rules if they aren't a druid. As written, an archivist doesn't even need that to make one, although we're still left with the problem of what exactly anybody does with a bogun once they activate their compost robot.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by frogglesmash
…the Beget Bogun spell is now a 1st level spell instead of a 4th level spell.

Where did you find Beget Bogun as a fourth-level spell? It was first level in Masters of the Wild, first level in MM2, first level in Complete Divine, and first level when reprinted in the Spell Compendium. Was it reprinted yet again in yet another book?


Originally Posted by frogglesmash
…and from there it's just a matter of finding uses for an army of compost slaves that are in constant telepathic communication with you.

And one lucky fireball can kill you remotely, if it hits enough of them at once. 2d10 may not sound like a lot, but that adds up fast if your army takes a hit.


Originally Posted by DrMotives
…although we're still left with the problem of what exactly anybody does with a bogun once they activate their compost robot.

This is the question. Using a bogun as a scout seems like more of a liability than a benefit, especially given spells like Share Husk and Chain of Eyes, which I’ve found to be extremely useful in-game.

Also, even if the range was extended to 1500 feet, there’s still that 5% chance of willful disobedience, and if the thing decides to sit down in a funk and do nothing for 24 hours, you might as well not have it.

So, the range has been extended, for what that’s worth. But what else would it be helpful for a bogun to actually do?

[Jack_Simth]

You want to improve it? Lessen the drawbacks and it will be used more. If it didn't cost xp, or if it didn't hurt the master on death, it would make a useful semi-disposable scout. The Diplomacy check is very light - just dv 11 - and it is a class skill for Druids - so you can leave it if you want.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
You want to improve it? Lessen the drawbacks and it will be used more. If it didn't cost xp, or if it didn't hurt the master on death, it would make a useful semi-disposable scout.

True enough, but what I’m really asking is, what more could it be? What more could it do?

[unseenmage]

True enough, but what I’m really asking is, what more could it be? What more could it do?

Greater Humanoid Essence let's us afflict it with Lycanthropy and/or vampirism.
Or the Mother Cyst line of spells.
Possibly also Mineralize Warrior.

The 'Constructs Are Magic Items' rules interpretation let's us improve it as though it were a magic item, GM willing.

But even then a better base chassis Construct would.give a better end result minion.

Might be able to strip.away its Construct immunity to mind affecting via GHE then hit it with a mind control spell or even Mindrape so it never acts out again. Maybe.

[Jack_Simth]

True enough, but what I’m really asking is, what more could it be? What more could it do?

It's a minion. Not a perfectly-loyal minion, and a range-limited minion, but it's a minion.

If you're modifying it, it can become nearly anything you want.
If you invest equipment and spells in it, it can be useful at things.

Some possible modifications:
Increase it's HD (and with it, HP, saves, feats, and BAB), maybe increase it's size to Small (with the associated Str increase), and it starts to be a combat-useful minion (even if it's just flanking and Aid Another).
Increase the Hide and Move Silently scores, and it's a better scout
Let the maker customize it (can have any two skills as class skills, the maker can put it's skill points into either as needed, can select the feat, and it gets a +8 Racial bonus to one of the two) and it becomes a very useful skill bot (of which you'll want one per skill).


As a side note: The skill modifiers printed in Spell Compendium don't match the rules for creatures:
For Hide, Tiny is +8, Dex 16 is +3, and Stealthy adds +2. With no ranks, it should have a +13 (printed at +10).
It should have five ranks to distribute (Constructs get 2+Int mod per HD, times 4 for the first hit dice, and it has a -1 Int mod): If all five are in Move Silently, then with the +3 dex mod and the +2 from Stealthy, it should have +10 rather than +9.

[unseenmage]

Could we cure its need to be close to its master by letting it carry around a clipped toenail or something?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
Some possible modifications….

Good ideas, thanks.


Originally Posted by unseenmage
Could we cure its need to be close to its master by letting it carry around a clipped toenail or something?

Ahh, the old Toenail of Far Travel. :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Rudimentary Intelligence (Dragon #327): while Bogun already sentient, by cheesing CL you may give your Bogun genius-level Intelligence (and lots of skill points)

[Afghanistan]

Sacrifices need an int of 3 or higher, so either cast Fox's Cunning on the goat, or give it a headband of intellect, and boom, valid sacrifice.

I think you're missing the real play, which is to sacrifice the Bogun ad nauseam to produce 1.8 of a bogun with each attempt. I think the pro-strat is to just sacrifice your infinite Boguns over and over and over again until you get enough dark crafting XP to actually produce a legitimately better golem, or make a Staff of Wish.

[frogglesmash]

I think you're missing the real play, which is to sacrifice the Bogun ad nauseam to produce 1.8 of a bogun with each attempt. I think the pro-strat is to just sacrifice your infinite Boguns over and over and over again until you get enough dark crafting XP to actually produce a legitimately better golem, or make a Staff of Wish.

Boguns are constructs, so I don't think they count as living creatures, which is another requirement for a sacrificial candidate. Furthermore, if you're sacrificing boguns in order to create boguns, it technically results in a slower rate of boguns creation (0.8 per minimum roll sacrifice, instead of 1.8) so all in all, you're better off getting a pair of animals that breed quickly, and sacrificing those.

[Palanan]

OP here, no interest in sacrificing anything.

I do like the idea of a workaround on the range limit, though, because even at 1500 feet the bogun is pretty restricted.

Let’s say a tuft of the master’s hair is braided into the bogun on construction, giving it a permanent physical connection with the master’s body. Should this require any sort of cost, in XP or anything else? I feel like giving the bogun unlimited range shouldn’t be completely free.

[unseenmage]

OP here, no interest in sacrificing anything.

I do like the idea of a workaround on the range limit, though, because even at 1500 feet the bogun is pretty restricted.

Let’s say a tuft of the master’s hair is braided into the bogun on construction, giving it a permanent physical connection with the master’s body. Should this require any sort of cost, in XP or anything else? I feel like giving the bogun unlimited range shouldn’t be completely free.

Why not? Almost every other Construct can act independently of their masters immediate prescence.

Though if you need a price the Acorn of Far Travel should give you a price comparison.

[Feantar]

To the main point, just allow Pathfinder's Construct Modifications and the bogun can become very useful.


Rudimentary Intelligence (Dragon #327): while Bogun already sentient, by cheesing CL you may give your Bogun genius-level Intelligence (and lots of skill points)

That would be awesome, but it doesn't work. From rudimentary intelligence: This augmentation cannot add additional Intelligence to a construct that normally has an Intelligence score. Which I always found weird: the construct that starts brainless can end up smarter than the construct that doesn't.

[frogglesmash]

OP here, no interest in sacrificing anything.

I do like the idea of a workaround on the range limit, though, because even at 1500 feet the bogun is pretty restricted.

Let’s say a tuft of the master’s hair is braided into the bogun on construction, giving it a permanent physical connection with the master’s body. Should this require any sort of cost, in XP or anything else? I feel like giving the bogun unlimited range shouldn’t be completely free.

I don't think there's any reasonable reading of the rules that would allow for that to work, and if there is I'd definitely have to be walked through it before I was convinced. The only option I can think of at the moment is the aforementioned acorn of far travel, but that solution had its own problems. You'd have to carry around a bonsai oak tree at all times. You'd have to either refresh the spell every few days, or find a way to extend its duration indefinitely, something that would significantly significantly increase your per-bogun-cost. You're also limited to only one active acorn at a time, limiting yourself to one bogun per druid you can find to cast the spell for you.

[Malphegor]

Sacrifices need an int of 3 or higher, so either cast Fox's Cunning on the goat, or give it a headband of intellect, and boom, valid sacrifice.

“Who am I... I? Yes, I exist. Wow there are words coming out of my throat. Throaaat. I think I’ll call myself a goat, I like the guh sound. Hey, who’s that? Are you my mummy? Thank you for giving me intelligence, what’s that you’re holding, it looks... shhhharp? Yes, sharp. Oh wow what is this feeling, I do not like this, oh, is this pain? I’m crying... no, dying! Is this is what I was born for mother? Exist to die? Sum ergo morte? euuughhhhhh <dead>”

The other goat on the sacrificial altar merely thought to itself ‘oh no, not again’.

[ShurikVch]

That would be awesome, but it doesn't work. From rudimentary intelligence: This augmentation cannot add additional Intelligence to a construct that normally has an Intelligence score. Which I always found weird: the construct that starts brainless can end up smarter than the construct that doesn't.Actually, the wording there is ambiguous - can be understood as "you can't add Int to existing sentient Constructs"
(Bogun wouldn't have "Intelligence score", because we're didn't animated it yet - it's just a mannequin at that point)