under powered for too much effort?

[KingBearKing]

So I was trying to figure out how to combine the full effects of battlecasting with Havoc Mage with the daggercasting gained from daggerspell mage.

What I came up with for meeting the prerequisites is a bit dicey and I'm not even sure it's worth the payoff but here we go.

Warrior3/Martial Wizard3/Havoc5/Daggerspell9

So I take the generic class warrior so I can hand pick my starting class skills and my first two bonus feats I take sneak attack and whatever I need to eventually take two weapon fighting. Three levels of warrior gives me a full BAB of 3 Then 3 ranks of martial wizard but that gets me up to BAB 4 caster level 3 and 2nd level spells. Then it's smooth sailing into havoc mage and most of daggerspell mage.

Now is all this even worth it? The idea is I'd theoretically be able to have three spells active through dual daggercasting and a battle cast spell. Idk. It's kinda under powered. By level 20 he'll only cast spells like a level 13 wizard and he'll only have a 5D6 sneak attack. I'm not sure the novelty of stacking multiple spells into a round is worth it.

[Elves]

Could Battlecast arguably work with x level spells metamagicked into higher level spell slots? The ability makes no reference to spell slots, only to the spell's level, and metamagic feats other than Heighten make clear that the modified spell is merely taking up a higher level spell slot while leaving the spell's "actual level" unchanged.

If that's valid then Havoc Mage 1-2 would probably be sufficient.

[Silvercrys]

Could Battlecast arguably work with x level spells metamagicked into higher level spell slots? The ability makes no reference to spell slots, only to the spell's level, and metamagic feats other than Heighten make clear that the modified spell is merely taking up a higher level spell slot while leaving the spell's "actual level" unchanged.

If that's valid then Havoc Mage 1-2 would probably be sufficient.Probably, but what are you Battlecasting? Empowered Shocking Grasp?

I don't think Battlecast works with Daggerspell Flurry, for what it's worth, Daggerspell Flurry requires the full attack action and Battlecast is its own full-round action. You can (probably) use Battlecast to hold the charge on a dagger with Double Daggercast, which is clever, but if you're sneak attacking with it anyway you're actually losing damage by channeling instead of just touching then with Shocking Grasp or whatever and making a normal dagger sneak attack because you'd get sneak attack damage on the touch spell, too. You can throw two daggers with this build, though, I think? Use Battlecast to cast a spell and Arcane Throw to deliver it, then just throw another dagger?

You can get two spells out of Daggerspell Flurry, but you have to be a Duskblade and you can't do it until level 23, heh. Duskblade 13/Daggerspell Mage 10.

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Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8 can channel two spells into a thrown dagger attack. Move action to channel with Spellsword, then cast the second spell as a standard and use the dagger you channeled into to deliver it with Arcane Throw. Casting two Fireballs only hits the dagger target with both, though, Spellsword specifies only the struck target is affected by the spell (one Fireball explodes for area damage and the other only hits the struck target). It's unclear whether you get sneak attack twice (probably not).

You can probably do this with a Spellthief build of some kind (Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8/Unseen Seer 3 gives okay sneak attack, 6th level Trickster Spellthief spells, can explicitly hold up to 4 stolen spell levels and channel + arcane throw).

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Duskblade 3 + Spellsword 4 can do the same with a melee attack, I believe. Duskblade 5/Spellsinger 2/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsinger +3 works and gets 9th level spells, though you can't use Duskblade's channel on your Sublime Chord spells without a pretty permissive reading of how Sublime Chord works. I think, technically, Sublime Chord grants its own spellcasting rather than extending the casting of your old class so maybe just straight Duskblade 5/Spellsword 4/Duskblade +11 is better? Spellsword 4 and Duskblade 13 are a bit of a nonbo though. Wonder if there are any classes that add spells per day or explicitly extend your old casting class...

I guess Duskblade 4/Spellthief 1/Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8/Unseen Seer 3 is a build that can do the trick with both a melee dagger attack and a thrown one but it only gets 4th level Duskblade spells so you'll be out of spell slots super quick.

Edit: Usually it's poor taste to combine generic classes like Warrior with other stuff. Can you manage with Sneak Attack Thug fighter from UA? It should give you the right skills to get into Daggerspell Mage and full BAB for Spellsword, though you lose heavy armor I believe.

[KingBearKing]

Probably, but what are you Battlecasting? Empowered Shocking Grasp?

I don't think Battlecast works with Daggerspell Flurry, for what it's worth, Daggerspell Flurry requires the full attack action and Battlecast is its own full-round action. You can (probably) use Battlecast to hold the charge on a dagger with Double Daggercast, which is clever, but if you're sneak attacking with it anyway you're actually losing damage by channeling instead of just touching then with Shocking Grasp or whatever and making a normal dagger sneak attack because you'd get sneak attack damage on the touch spell, too. You can throw two daggers with this build, though, I think? Use Battlecast to cast a spell and Arcane Throw to deliver it, then just throw another dagger?

You can get two spells out of Daggerspell Flurry, but you have to be a Duskblade and you can't do it until level 23, heh. Duskblade 13/Daggerspell Mage 10.

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Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8 can channel two spells into a thrown dagger attack. Move action to channel with Spellsword, then cast the second spell as a standard and use the dagger you channeled into to deliver it with Arcane Throw. Casting two Fireballs only hits the dagger target with both, though, Spellsword specifies only the struck target is affected by the spell (one Fireball explodes for area damage and the other only hits the struck target). It's unclear whether you get sneak attack twice (probably not).

You can probably do this with a Spellthief build of some kind (Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8/Unseen Seer 3 gives okay sneak attack, 6th level Trickster Spellthief spells, can explicitly hold up to 4 stolen spell levels and channel + arcane throw).

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Duskblade 3 + Spellsword 4 can do the same with a melee attack, I believe. Duskblade 5/Spellsinger 2/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsinger +3 works and gets 9th level spells, though you can't use Duskblade's channel on your Sublime Chord spells without a pretty permissive reading of how Sublime Chord works. I think, technically, Sublime Chord grants its own spellcasting rather than extending the casting of your old class so maybe just straight Duskblade 5/Spellsword 4/Duskblade +11 is better? Spellsword 4 and Duskblade 13 are a bit of a nonbo though. Wonder if there are any classes that add spells per day or explicitly extend your old casting class...

I guess Duskblade 4/Spellthief 1/Spellsword 4/Daggerspell Mage 8/Unseen Seer 3 is a build that can do the trick with both a melee dagger attack and a thrown one but it only gets 4th level Duskblade spells so you'll be out of spell slots super quick.

Edit: Usually it's poor taste to combine generic classes like Warrior with other stuff. Can you manage with Sneak Attack Thug fighter from UA? It should give you the right skills to get into Daggerspell Mage and full BAB for Spellsword, though you lose heavy armor I believe.


Might be for the best to scrap this whole concept and just go back to the spellthief idea lol. It seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

Also I know dipping generic classes is kinda poor form. Though I did once have a sheet written out for a bard with a level1dip into the npc class aristocrat so I could load up on as many communication skills as I could. (Spy build in s heavily information gathering campaign. I wanted to be able to talk my way out of any situation)