Honest As A Curse

[Bartmanhomer]

Is there a spell that you been curse that you always tell the truth no matter what and if you try to lie or Bluff the curse will damage you? Is there a spell for that?

[RatElemental]

Seems about in line with Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm)'s example effects.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mindrape can make the target completely unable to contemplate lying, whether directly or by omission. Of course, if not contemplated carefully, it ends with the target constantly spewing everything relevant (and not so relevant).

Craft Contingent Spell can make the attached spell go off when the user lies. Getting hit by several Maximized/Empowered disintegrate spells is a rather decent deterrent, I would think. Especially if even minimum damage is enough to kill you.

[Bartmanhomer]

Mindrape can make the target completely unable to contemplate lying, whether directly or by omission. Of course, if not contemplated carefully, it ends with the target constantly spewing everything relevant (and not so relevant).

Craft Contingent Spell can make the attached spell go off when the user lies. Getting hit by several Maximized/Empowered disintegrate spells is a rather decent deterrent, I would think. Especially if even minimum damage is enough to kill you.
I didn't know that spell even exist. The name sound evil. :eek:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I didn't know that spell even exist. The name sound evil. :eek:It's from the Book of Vile Darkness. It's got the [Evil] descriptor, but surprisingly (or not, given the devs' rather...lackluster approach to alignment), it has a metric flubton of completely non-evil uses, such as teaching people a lot of information rapidly, or healing mental trauma.

[Evil] it might be, but it's no more evil than fireball. Even less so, actually, since most of its potential uses are 100% beneficial, where fireball is entirely harmful to anyone it hits. (Immunities notwithstanding.)

[RatElemental]

It's from the Book of Vile Darkness. It's got the [Evil] descriptor, but surprisingly (or not, given the devs' rather lackluster approach to alignment), it has a metric flubton of completely non-evil uses, such as teaching people a lot of information rapidly, or healing mental trauma.

[Evil] it might be, but it's no more evil than fireball. Even less so, actually, since most of its potential uses are 100% beneficial, where fireball is entirely harmful to anyone it hits. (Immunities notwithstanding.)

Isn't there also a non-evil spell that does basically the exact same thing called programmed amnesia?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Isn't there also a non-evil spell that does basically the exact same thing called programmed amnesia?IIRC, it doesn't have nearly the flexibility or potential for beneficial uses. There's some overlap (mostly on the evil side of things, ironically), but it's nowhere near as good.

...once again, ironically.

[Particle_Man]

If you limit to “tell X the complete truth about what you did to Y on day Z” you could make a geas or quest do the trick.

[weckar]

If you limit to “tell X the complete truth about what you did to Y on day Z” you could make a geas or quest do the trick.

Easily circumvented, though. If you talk in detail about every breath, sniffle and step, your information will be practically useless.

[Celestia]

Easily circumvented, though. If you talk in detail about every breath, sniffle and step, your information will be practically useless.
That wording also doesn't negate the ability to give misleading or "technically true" responses.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Charm + Suggestion or Command? (Maybe, with Modify Memory for extra effect?)

Or personal-range Zone of Truth?

[Silva Stormrage]

Bestow or Greater Bestow Curse seems like they would still be the best option for this kind of effect.

[ezekielraiden]

It's from the Book of Vile Darkness. It's got the [Evil] descriptor, but surprisingly (or not, given the devs' rather...lackluster approach to alignment), it has a metric flubton of completely non-evil uses, such as teaching people a lot of information rapidly, or healing mental trauma.

[Evil] it might be, but it's no more evil than fireball. Even less so, actually, since most of its potential uses are 100% beneficial, where fireball is entirely harmful to anyone it hits. (Immunities notwithstanding.)

That's....a rather creative interpretation, I must say. Yes, the ability to psychically rewrite a being's entire mind has potential uses that aren't detrimental. I'd also assert that the vast majority of beings capable of casting the spell are not capable of doing so in a way that causes exactly 0 harm to the, ahem, "recipient." The mind is not a hard drive where you can just add extra 1s and 0s to the end and have entire new programs appear. It is a wibbly-wobbly, thoughty-oughty ball of stuff, where the position, orientation, connectedness, and density all play critical parts.

IOW, you can only get "well the spell is REALLY pretty good, it's only if you use it badly that it would be Evil" if you willfully ignore how damaging it can be to rummage around inside someone's mind. This is gaslighting on steroids, that can happen nearly instantaneously, with no ability to resist (beyond a single Will saving throw), counteract, or even be aware that it happened, and it requires another (expensive) 9th-level spell to reverse any unwanted effects.

It's like saying that hard neutron radiation could be used in highly beneficial ways (treating cancer, creating useful plant mutations, sterilizing waste), so a spell that produces an enormous spray of high-energy neutrons is really a pretty good spell and therefore it doesn't matter that it was originally created to painfully exterminate all life other than the caster in a 30' radius. Invading and rewriting another person's self is at best a dangerously reckless act that has few to no positive uses that couldn't be achieved with some other, less risky and lower-level spell. (Consider the 4th-level Bard spell modify memory, or the 1st-level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spell alibi, neither of which are [Evil].) I strongly, strongly disagree that even "most" of its potential uses are beneficial--rewriting another being to be exactly what you want it to be is horrendously abusable, even in small ways, even by people who intend to do good with it.


If you limit to “tell X the complete truth about what you did to Y on day Z” you could make a geas or quest do the trick.

Easily circumvented, though. If you talk in detail about every breath, sniffle and step, your information will be practically useless.

Of course, the criticisms here can be relatively easily circumvented themselves. "Always answer truthfully and forthrightly, when asked questions by X." If you're feeling generous, include something like "about [subject]" at the end, so they don't have to answer that about unrelated topics (e.g. whom they might have bedded long before the relevant time frame). Since being forthright specifically means not beating around the bush but getting straight to the point, it prevents confusing nth-order negations (like Pinocchio from Shrek 2) as well as bombardment with irrelevant truths (like "I continued breathing for the entire experience, and my heart was beating, and...")

This isn't flawless, naturally. Much of the time, what a person perceives as relevant is not the same as what their questioner would perceive so. It leaves open the possibility of thinking something is too obvious or too trivial to mention. The only way to really avoid that is to get into some really lame and annoying hyperprecise logical syntax crap that most people don't have patience for.

[Quertus]

I didn't know that spell even exist. The name sound evil. :eek:

You… never heard of the best and my second favorite spell before?


That's....a rather creative interpretation, I must say. Yes, the ability to psychically rewrite a being's entire mind has potential uses that aren't detrimental. I'd also assert that the vast majority of beings capable of casting the spell are not capable of doing so in a way that causes exactly 0 harm to the, ahem, "recipient." The mind is not a hard drive where you can just add extra 1s and 0s to the end and have entire new programs appear. It is a wibbly-wobbly, thoughty-oughty ball of stuff, where the position, orientation, connectedness, and density all play critical parts.

IOW, you can only get "well the spell is REALLY pretty good, it's only if you use it badly that it would be Evil" if you willfully ignore how damaging it can be to rummage around inside someone's mind. This is gaslighting on steroids, that can happen nearly instantaneously, with no ability to resist (beyond a single Will saving throw), counteract, or even be aware that it happened, and it requires another (expensive) 9th-level spell to reverse any unwanted effects.

It's like saying that hard neutron radiation could be used in highly beneficial ways (treating cancer, creating useful plant mutations, sterilizing waste), so a spell that produces an enormous spray of high-energy neutrons is really a pretty good spell and therefore it doesn't matter that it was originally created to painfully exterminate all life other than the caster in a 30' radius. Invading and rewriting another person's self is at best a dangerously reckless act that has few to no positive uses that couldn't be achieved with some other, less risky and lower-level spell. (Consider the 4th-level Bard spell modify memory, or the 1st-level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spell alibi, neither of which are [Evil].) I strongly, strongly disagree that even "most" of its potential uses are beneficial--rewriting another being to be exactly what you want it to be is horrendously abusable, even in small ways, even by people who intend to do good with it.

Although I may not disagree with you regarding the real world complexity and interconnectedness of human memory, these side effects for Mindrape are all of your own creation, homebrew, and not supported by RAW.

[Bartmanhomer]

You… never heard of the best and my second favorite spell before?



Although I may not disagree with you regarding the real world complexity and interconnectedness of human memory, these side effects for Mindrape are all of your own creation, homebrew, and not supported by RAW.
What spells are you talking about? :confused:

[ShurikVch]

That's....a rather creative interpretation, I must say. Yes, the ability to psychically rewrite a being's entire mind has potential uses that aren't detrimental. I'd also assert that the vast majority of beings capable of casting the spell are not capable of doing so in a way that causes exactly 0 harm to the, ahem, "recipient." The mind is not a hard drive where you can just add extra 1s and 0s to the end and have entire new programs appear. It is a wibbly-wobbly, thoughty-oughty ball of stuff, where the position, orientation, connectedness, and density all play critical parts.

IOW, you can only get "well the spell is REALLY pretty good, it's only if you use it badly that it would be Evil" if you willfully ignore how damaging it can be to rummage around inside someone's mind. This is gaslighting on steroids, that can happen nearly instantaneously, with no ability to resist (beyond a single Will saving throw), counteract, or even be aware that it happened, and it requires another (expensive) 9th-level spell to reverse any unwanted effects.

It's like saying that hard neutron radiation could be used in highly beneficial ways (treating cancer, creating useful plant mutations, sterilizing waste), so a spell that produces an enormous spray of high-energy neutrons is really a pretty good spell and therefore it doesn't matter that it was originally created to painfully exterminate all life other than the caster in a 30' radius. Invading and rewriting another person's self is at best a dangerously reckless act that has few to no positive uses that couldn't be achieved with some other, less risky and lower-level spell. (Consider the 4th-level Bard spell modify memory, or the 1st-level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spell alibi, neither of which are [Evil].) I strongly, strongly disagree that even "most" of its potential uses are beneficial--rewriting another being to be exactly what you want it to be is horrendously abusable, even in small ways, even by people who intend to do good with it.Modify Memory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm) is a weaksauce: it's limited to 5 minutes of memory - 20th-level Bard with Spellcasting Prodigy feat and Ring of Wizardry IV would be barely able to do 2 hours/day (and it's presuming all the hard work wouldn't be undone in-between castings being "dismissed by the creature as a bad dream or a memory muddied by too much wine")
And what the heck is Alibi? From where is it?

Actually, all the bad stuff about the Mindrape is the name and the book.
Abusable? It may be, but so is (unrestricted) Wish (which is available at the same level).

Honestly, it's reminding me arguments about how to use Animate Dead to make some Skeletons is Evil - despite the fact all the Skeletons are soulless and Mindless, and wouldn't move a finger without being ordered to.

Or how Deathwatch spell got the [Evil] tag because "waah, it uses Negative Energy!".
OK, but you know what other spell uses Negative Energy too?
Mass Harm (Heroes of Horror)! :smalleek:
(Or, you know, Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) - the spell which makes Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)s...)
But no [Evil] tag...

Or, you know, the famous Fell Conspiracy feat (Exemplars of Evil), which trying to sell itself as sinister, but in truth - just promotes teamwork :smallamused:

[Berenger]

There is a spell that can hold a gun curse to your head and pull the trigger when you lie:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm

It's so totally lawful good, it's on the paladin spell list!

[Particle_Man]

Easily circumvented, though. If you talk in detail about every breath, sniffle and step, your information will be practically useless.


That wording also doesn't negate the ability to give misleading or "technically true" responses.

Well then you hire a lawyer to close all such loopholes like that when wording the relevant geas/quest. Presumably a fantasy world that has existed long enough has "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" with respect to most such circumventions.

[Celestia]

Well then you hire a lawyer to close all such loopholes like that when wording the relevant geas/quest. Presumably a fantasy world that has existed long enough has "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" with respect to most such circumventions.
That would certainly be true in Tippyverse, but "standard" D&D is just anachronistic Medieval Europe with wizards, so I doubt it's core content. :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

I think profession (lawyer) would work - didn't they have lawyers in ye olde medievale times (and church lawyers in particular, which would fit the casting of the spell)? Heck I thought Sir Thomas More was a lawyer.

And barrister is actually listed in the profession skill in pathfinder (Which is close to 3.5).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/profession/

It is also listed as one of the npcs that can be hired in the 3.5 dmg.

[ben-zayb]

That wording also doesn't negate the ability to give misleading or "technically true" responses.

It also doesn't monitor tone, so you can arguably deliberately sound sarcastic to make the listener think you don't literally mean what you say.

[Celestia]

It also doesn't monitor tone, so you can arguably deliberately sound sarcastic to make the listener think you don't literally mean what you say.
"Oh yes. I totally was the one who robbed the inn. You definitely caught me red handed. There's absolutely no way you could be wrong." *jerk off hand motion followed by an eye roll*

[Particle_Man]

There was a Kids in the Hall skit about a guy who Sarcastically confessed to murder, generating a lot of laughs . . . until the court stenographer (scribe) was asked to read out what was said and of course did so in a deadpan voice. At which point the confession shocked the jury into convicting Sarcastic Guy of murder. :smallsmile:

For every move, there is a counter.

[Quertus]

What spells are you talking about? :confused:

Mindrape, and Mindrape.

[RedMage125]

Easily circumvented, though. If you talk in detail about every breath, sniffle and step, your information will be practically useless.


That wording also doesn't negate the ability to give misleading or "technically true" responses.
This is actually a great point, and one can decieve people even more through judicious application of true things being spoken, and others withheld. Being mandated to "tell the truth" does not predicate "not being able to mislead people".

In 5e, Baalzebub, Lord of the Fifth Layer of Hell, can no longer lie, or he will change into a giant slug. But he also carefully speaks true thing to manipulate or mislead.

There is a spell that can hold a gun curse to your head and pull the trigger when you lie:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm

It's so totally lawful good, it's on the paladin spell list!

Glad someone mentioned this.

[Thurbane]

I'm a a bit late to the party, but the Bestowed Curses: Variants for the Vile article in Dragon issue 348 specifically mentions this:



The target becomes unable to tell a lie. He may, however, choose to avoid answering a question in order to avoid telling the truth.