Does spells like Armor of Agathy and fire shield work with sanctuary.

[Throne12]

Sanctuary says " if the word creature makes a attack or cast a spell that effects a enemy creature, this spell ends.

So AoA an FS are spells that dont target any creature and you dont make any attacks. So they should work with Sanctuary right. What about spirit guardians where they have to make a save.

[FilthyLucre]

Sanctuary says " if the word creature makes a attack or cast a spell that effects a enemy creature, this spell ends.

So AoA an FS are spells that dont target any creature and you dont make any attacks. So they should work with Sanctuary right. What about spirit guardians where they have to make a save.

Confusingly, the term "attack" has both an informal and a formal usage in D&D. There is the bare concept of 'attack' and there is the action type 'attack', (as well as the action for casting a spell). Since the spell does not stipulate attack ACTIONS I would interpret it to mean anything intentionally offensive or harmful. The spirit of the sanctuary spell is that while you are protected from others, they are also protected from you.

[Bobthewizard]

I would let those spells, and any other recurring damage spells, continue if previously cast but wouldn't let sanctuary continue if the target cast one of those spells.

[RickAllison]

I definitely would not remove it for AoA or Fire Shield. While they can damage an enemy, it only functions as a retributive effect, and so is defensive. Similarly, I would not remove something like Wall of Fire that is merely used to keep someone away from an area, but I would if it was done to keep someone in a damaging area. I feel like intention plays a big part in Sanctuary; it's a divine protection to keep someone safe, but it will not protect someone who uses its blessing to attack another.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You're referencing an old version of Sanctuary, it has seen an errata since. The current text of the spell is:

If the warded creature makes an attack, casts a spell that affects an enemy, or deals damage to another creature, this spell ends.

Casting Armor of Agathys is fine, but as soon as it triggers its damage you will lose the benefits of Sanctuary.

I will note that there's an argument to be made that the damage from those spells can't be directly contributed to the caster but I personally find that argument flimsy. Your spell, your damage unless explicitly stated otherwise.

[RSP]

You're referencing an old version of Sanctuary, it has seen an errata since. The current text of the spell is:


Casting Armor of Agathys is fine, but as soon as it triggers its damage you will lose the benefits of Sanctuary.

I will note that there's an argument to be made that the damage from those spells can't be directly contributed to the caster but I personally find that argument flimsy. Your spell, your damage unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Interestingly, the thought behind “your spell=your damage” can be extrapolated into interesting situations. Would “your trap=your damage” similarly hold true? If a character had dropped caltrops earlier in combat, and that character now has Sanctuary cast, does an enemy stepping on the caltrops end Sanctuary? If the enemy steps on the caltrops intentionally for the purpose of ending Sanctuary change that?

Obviously, the answer is “Ask your DM”, but your post made me think of how this could lead to a lot of different scenarios.

[MaxWilson]

Interestingly, the thought behind “your spell=your damage” can be extrapolated into interesting situations. Would “your trap=your damage” similarly hold true? If a character had dropped caltrops earlier in combat, and that character now has Sanctuary cast, does an enemy stepping on the caltrops end Sanctuary? If the enemy steps on the caltrops intentionally for the purpose of ending Sanctuary change that?

Obviously, the answer is “Ask your DM”, but your post made me think of how this could lead to a lot of different scenarios.

What if Alice Magic Jars into Bob's body and casts Fire Shield, then gives Bob's body back to Bob. Bob casts Sanctuary. Then Eve hits Bob with a mallet, taking 2d8 fire damage in return. Who just inflicted damage on Eve: Alice, Bob, or Eve?

[darknite]

I've heard this was nerfed in the case of a cleric casting Spirit Guardians and then Sanctuary.

[MaxWilson]

I've heard this was nerfed in the case of a cleric casting Spirit Guardians and then Sanctuary.

Grapple/Prone followed by Sanctuary is still a terrific, tanky combination against a small number of enemies, e.g. two high-CR foes. You can Dodge with your bonus action to prevent other enemies from hitting you.

It takes one of the enemies almost completely out of the fight (cheaply!) so the party can focus fire on the other enemy, and everybody can beat up the grappled guy with advantage on their melee attacks to finish him off.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Interestingly, the thought behind “your spell=your damage” can be extrapolated into interesting situations. Would “your trap=your damage” similarly hold true? If a character had dropped caltrops earlier in combat, and that character now has Sanctuary cast, does an enemy stepping on the caltrops end Sanctuary? If the enemy steps on the caltrops intentionally for the purpose of ending Sanctuary change that?

Obviously, the answer is “Ask your DM”, but your post made me think of how this could lead to a lot of different scenarios.

In the broadest sense it's pretty clear that the intent is for both spells to end Sanctuary if the damage is triggered, the errata gives us a pretty good idea of that. I'd personally be willing to make very rare exceptions if an enemy with knowledge of the Sanctuary spell caused themselves harm off one of your possessions where it doesn't end the spell. I don't know if Caltrops would necessarily apply, if you intended not to cause harm with them you could instead use Ball Bearings to impede movement. It's a tough call.

[Brookshw]

What if Alice Magic Jars into Bob's body and casts Fire Shield, then gives Bob's body back to Bob. Bob casts Sanctuary. Then Eve hits Bob with a mallet, taking 2d8 fire damage in return. Who just inflicted damage on Eve: Alice, Bob, or Eve?

Does a target "self" spell cast while magic jarred into another body stay on that body after the inhabitant leaves and another takes its place?

[MaxWilson]

Does a target "self" spell cast while magic jarred into another body stay on that body after the inhabitant leaves and another takes its place?

What about a spell like True Polymorph that can target stuff or other? If I Magic Jar and then True Polymorph that body into an Ancient White Dragon, then switch to a new body, which body is now a dragon?

[BarneyBent]

What about a spell like True Polymorph that can target stuff or other? If I Magic Jar and then True Polymorph that body into an Ancient White Dragon, then switch to a new body, which body is now a dragon?

This gives me an idea. Magic Jar into a body. True Polymorph your body into an Ancient Dragon of your choice. Return to your body which is now an Ancient Dragon.

Magic Jar makes it pretty clear that your alignment, mental scores and class features follow your soul. Therefore, returning to your polymorphed body should theoretically allow you to retain your class features while also being an Ancient Dragon on a permanent basis.

[Brookshw]

This gives me an idea. Magic Jar into a body. True Polymorph your body into an Ancient Dragon of your choice. Return to your body which is now an Ancient Dragon.

Magic Jar makes it pretty clear that your alignment, mental scores and class features follow your soul. Therefore, returning to your polymorphed body should theoretically allow you to retain your class features while also being an Ancient Dragon on a permanent basis.

This is getting weird now simply because its not clear its still your body if its permanently true polymorphed considering part of that spell stipulates that a permanently TP's creature isn't under your control, and not being able to return to your body has ramifications with magic jar. Feels like we're diving into DM dependent territory.

[BarneyBent]

This is getting weird now simply because its not clear its still your body if its permanently true polymorphed considering part of that spell stipulates that a permanently TP's creature isn't under your control, and not being able to return to your body has ramifications with magic jar. Feels like we're diving into DM dependent territory.

Oh it’s absolutely DM dependent territory. RAW does not cover this either way.

First hurdle is - what’s the character level of your body, if your soul is in the jar? DM could easily argue that the same argument that justifies the transfer of class abilities means your body loses them, meaning you can only TP your body into a CR 0 creature - not very fun. Let alone everything else questionable. But it’s a solid enough argument that a DM may or may not choose to allow.

[Laserlight]

The CR17 Gold dragon has the ability to shapechange into a humanoid, so perhaps you can turn into a dragon who can turn into you.

DM ruling: "Let me see if I'm following this. You cast sanctuary, then magic jar into Bob, then true Polymorph, then Carol uses Suggestion to get you to spread a bag of caltrops, but those are Dave's caltrops, and this monster s immune to normal damage but Eve secretly enchanted them to be magic, unknown to you, and then Frank knocks the monster out of the air and he, the monster, lands on the caltrops but the fall damage would kill him even if he hit bare floor, and you're asking whether that breaks Sanctuary? Have I got that right? Roll all those dice in that pile and take that much damage."

[RSP]

In the broadest sense it's pretty clear that the intent is for both spells to end Sanctuary if the damage is triggered, the errata gives us a pretty good idea of that. I'd personally be willing to make very rare exceptions if an enemy with knowledge of the Sanctuary spell caused themselves harm off one of your possessions where it doesn't end the spell. I don't know if Caltrops would necessarily apply, if you intended not to cause harm with them you could instead use Ball Bearings to impede movement. It's a tough call.

Not sure I’d go with it being pretty clear what the intent is with something like Fire Shield or AoA, but RAW it probably applies.

For RAI, I’d say it probably has more to do with intent. RAW, a pre-Sanctuary casting of Sickening Radiance doesn’t break Sanctuary if the enemies in SR make their saves. RAI, forcing the save probably should break Sanctuary.

A situation that I could see happening in a game: Find Steed mount receives the effects of AoA, when it’s rider casts AoA, to help the mount’s survivability. Sanctuary is cast on the mount as well, likewise to help keep it alive.

If the mount is hit with a melee attack, does the Sanctuary end?

I’m pretty sure the RAI allow summoned creatures to attack and damage enemies without breaking Sanctuary on the summoner. Summon spells require the summoner to maintain Concentration and the summoner directing them, which are each a direct activity towards causing the damage, with AoA there isn’t any activity by the target of Sanctuary to cause damage. They couldn’t end AoA even if they wanted to, aside from Dispel Magic (which would also end the Sanctuary on them, most likely).

Using the Summons model, AoA and Fire Shield should not break Sanctuary, RAI. [edit: just to clarify this: if the RAI are something along the lines of “if the character activity does something to cause damage” then AoA and FS should not break Sanctuary]

[NaughtyTiger]

In the broadest sense it's pretty clear that the intent is for both spells to end Sanctuary if the damage is triggered, the errata gives us a pretty good idea of that. I'd personally be willing to make very rare exceptions if an enemy with knowledge of the Sanctuary spell caused themselves harm off one of your possessions where it doesn't end the spell. I don't know if Caltrops would necessarily apply, if you intended not to cause harm with them you could instead use Ball Bearings to impede movement. It's a tough call.

I thought the general consensus was Dark One's Blessing (warlock fiend) was that if AoA dropped the enemy to 0 HP then you didn't get the temp HP, cuz you didn't deal the damage...

[ProsecutorGodot]

I thought the general consensus was Dark One's Blessing (warlock fiend) was that if AoA dropped the enemy to 0 HP then you didn't get the temp HP, cuz you didn't deal the damage...

Do you have a link to this discussion? I'm interested in seeing it. Personally I just find it a bit hard to believe that you can cast a spell like that and claim that the damage done by it is not your own but I'm willing to roll back on that if a compelling enough argument presents itself.

[Sigreid]

This gives me an idea. Magic Jar into a body. True Polymorph your body into an Ancient Dragon of your choice. Return to your body which is now an Ancient Dragon.

Magic Jar makes it pretty clear that your alignment, mental scores and class features follow your soul. Therefore, returning to your polymorphed body should theoretically allow you to retain your class features while also being an Ancient Dragon on a permanent basis.

One of the modules has a WoTC example where a wizard true polymophed into an otter, kept his abilities and used wish to make the transformation permanent as a solution to his old and feeble body. Because apparently he was unaware of the clone spell, I guess.

[RickAllison]

One of the modules has a WoTC example where a wizard true polymophed into an otter, kept his abilities and used wish to make the transformation permanent as a solution to his old and feeble body. Because apparently he was unaware of the clone spell, I guess.

Maybe the DM just said that Clone doesn't work like that in their world? Like in my current DM's world, teleporation greater than Teleportation Circle all but doesn't exist. You can't get like the Teleport spell by normal means, and a Helmet of Teleportation was an incredibly rare item guarded by a mythical lich.

[Sigreid]

Maybe the DM just said that Clone doesn't work like that in their world? Like in my current DM's world, teleporation greater than Teleportation Circle all but doesn't exist. You can't get like the Teleport spell by normal means, and a Helmet of Teleportation was an incredibly rare item guarded by a mythical lich.

Fair call out except it's set 8n their default FR world. So, otters can be archmages!

[Lord Vukodlak]

One of the modules has a WoTC example where a wizard true polymophed into an otter, kept his abilities and used wish to make the transformation permanent as a solution to his old and feeble body. Because apparently he was unaware of the clone spell, I guess.
Was it adapted from an older module? Older versions of the spell didn’t let you clone a younger body.(and really early editions could have the clone awaken and try and kill you)

[NaughtyTiger]

Do you have a link to this discussion? I'm interested in seeing it. Personally I just find it a bit hard to believe that you can cast a spell like that and claim that the damage done by it is not your own but I'm willing to roll back on that if a compelling enough argument presents itself.

no, i don't have a link. if it isn't ringing bells with you, then i prolly misremembered

[Sigreid]

Was it adapted from an older module? Older versions of the spell didn’t let you clone a younger body.(and really early editions could have the clone awaken and try and kill you)

I have no idea if it was adapted from an older module. I'm not stating the name to avoid giving anything away.

Yea, I miss that about clone. It was great!

[Brookshw]

I have no idea if it was adapted from an older module. I'm not stating the name to avoid giving anything away.

Yea, I miss that about clone. It was great!

No, it's not adopted from an older module.

[Witty Username]

I think with my non-errata phb I would rule retributive damage is the attacker's fault and so allow it. But the errata does exist, so I guess the point is moot if you use it.

I believe this thread should be, "Do spells like Armor of Agathy and Fire Shield work with Sanctuary?" (sorry, the does bothered me)