[3.5] Getting Ranged Sneak Attack

[Mr Adventurer]

Hello all, I was recently reminded that Spellthief Steal Spell works on any SA, melee or ranged, and that got me thinking about things that help to trigger consistent ranged sneak attacks. What is out there?

Crossbow Sniper lets you SA out to 60 feet.

Attacking from stealth is the obvious one. Sniping rules apply so Able Sniper feat might help.

What abilities or feats help you to make a target of your ranged attack flat-footed?

Is it possible to count as flanking a target of your ranged attack?

[Mr Adventurer]

Drat, posted in wrong forum and can't work out how to delete.

[DeTess]

Drat, posted in wrong forum and can't work out how to delete.

Just report your own post and ask for it to be moved to the correct forum and the mods will take care of it.

[schreier]

Telling blow works on critical hits, but that doesn't exactly count as reliable. I do not believe you can count as flanking on ranged

[Saintheart]

Peerless Archer 1: (Prestige Class, Silver Marches) - directly provides the ability to execute ranged sneak attack at 30 feet. Doesn't just apply to projectile weapons, either, it applies to all ranged attacks.

[Mr Adventurer]

Peerless Archer 1: (Prestige Class, Silver Marches) - directly provides the ability to execute ranged sneak attack at 30 feet. Doesn't just apply to projectile weapons, either, it applies to all ranged attacks.

What does this mean? That every ranged attack is automatically a sneak attack, with no other qualifying conditions needed?

[DEMON]

What abilities or feats help you to make a target of your ranged attack flat-footed?

Is it possible to count as flanking a target of your ranged attack?


Telling blow works on critical hits, but that doesn't exactly count as reliable. I do not believe you can count as flanking on ranged

Deadeye Shot (PHB2) is somewhat reliable, but also quite limiting.

[Zaq]

Stealth or invisibility are the most reliable methods. A dip in warlock combined with the feat Blend Into Shadow (DotU) gets you pseudo-HiPS as a swift action, which can help with at least one a round. While they don’t get nearly enough juice to go all day, this is one of the niches that the CAdv ninja can do better than the standard rogue out of the box, incidentally.

Forcing an opponent to balance (grease, ice slick, path of frost, mundane marbles, etc.) is also pretty good, but it takes a fair quantity of resources to be able to reliably do that yourself on the same turn that you attack, so that works better with a wingperson.

[Piggy Knowles]

I find the combination of sniper's shot and long range to be incredibly hard to bypass for a lot of foes, where terrain permits. Most magical detection methods and non traditional senses, from Mindsight to blindsight and everything in between, have ranges that rarely go beyond 120' or so. You'll want to combine this with other ways to bypass common sneak attack answers as well, such as Improved Precise Shot for concealment, but in general I find sniper's shot incredibly useful for ranged sneak attackers.

[Saintheart]

What does this mean? That every ranged attack is automatically a sneak attack, with no other qualifying conditions needed?

No, just that you can execute ranged sneak attacks at 30 feet out. Still have to deny the target its DEX bonus to AC.

[Mr Adventurer]

No, just that you can execute ranged sneak attacks at 30 feet out. Still have to deny the target its DEX bonus to AC.

OK, I asked because that's already how it works. So the ability does nothing?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a Wand of Camouflage and a Dorje of Chameleon. Each gives a +10 to Hide for 10 minutes, at 15 go per charge, and being different bonus types they’ll stack. A level of Ranger gets Camouflage on your class spell list, and (arguably) taking Hidden Talent for Chameleon allows you to use the Dorje. Otherwise just UMD both.

Get Greater Manyshot and you can make multiple sneak attacks on a standard action.

[The Viscount]

OK, I asked because that's already how it works. So the ability does nothing?

Peerless archer gets a sneak attack derivative called "ranged sneak attack" which only works at ranged and only when the target is denied their Dex to AC, starting at 1d6.
Presumably you can't use it when flanking because flanking by default requires melee attacks, but given that Peerless archer can already threaten at range with enough levels, it feels like they could have given them a ranged flank ability like whisperknife.

Neraph Throw lets you deny an opponent's Dex to AC, but only with a thrown weapon and only once per encounter.

[Luckmann]

The Assassination magic weapon special quality (+1) from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) can really help. It allows you to score sneak attacks on anyone that is flanked - it doesn't necessitate that you have to be the one flanking.

You just need to get some friends that can flank. Buy them each Novice Shadow Hands from Tome of Battle so they can use the Island of Blades stance, if you have to. They're only 3000gp a piece, and can easily be combined (cost-wise) with other equipment, or if the DM allows it, at twice the cost you could get a slotless version.

Other than that and the things that have been mentioned, a Ring of Blinking gives you consistent ranged sneak attacks, as your enemies are denied their Dex Bonus to AC, since you count as attacking from invisibility. That said, it comes with the caveat of having a 20% miss chance on any one attack. Costs 27k, tho.

[Silvercrys]

OK, I asked because that's already how it works. So the ability does nothing?Think there was a bit of a misunderstanding; Peerless Archer gets the Ranged Sneak Attack class feature, which is just like normal sneak attack but it doesn't work with melee weapons at all.

You're looking for ways to deny Dex to qualify for sneak attack damage at range, not ways to get the Ranged Sneak Attack class feature.

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The Invisible Fist Monk ACF can give you immediate-action Invisibility every 3 rounds if you just want it for a ranged Steal Spells. Think you need Monk 3 for it, though, it replaces Evasion.

Cloak of Deception is a 2nd level Shadow Hand maneuver that can give you swift action Greater Invisibility.

Neraph Throw can do it with a thrown weapon 1/encounter.

There's apparently a Sleight of Hand skill use in the Rules Compendium (page 117) that says if you fight with nothing in your off hand for 2 rounds then quick draw a dagger with that hand on round 3, you can roll Sleight of Hand vs opponent's Spot and if you win the skill check they're flat-footed to the first attack. Should work with a thrown dagger, but it's only 1/opponent/encounter and not a very good trick, heh.

[DEMON]

Swift Invisibility - 2nd level spell (SpC and CAdv, possibly also elsewhere). Get it on a wand.
Per RC, wands of swift spells can be activated as swift action. Get wandchamber(s) installed into your ranged weapon of choice.

[Anthrowhale]

The combination of a ring of blinking and the seeking property is potent. Ring of blinking means you strike as if invisible (-> sneak attack applies) while seeking cancels out the downside of blinking.

[schreier]

The Assassination magic weapon special quality (+1) from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) can really help. It allows you to score sneak attacks on anyone that is flanked - it doesn't necessitate that you have to be the one flanking.


Is that enhancement consistently applied like that?

Even if it is, that would require 2 party members to count as flanking (since you cannot be one of the flankers)

If it is though, I need to start using that enhancement. It's not clear since it says it stacks with the other damage - but only says the 1d6 is added to a flanked opponent. You could read that only the 1d6 is applied at range, even if you allow that.

[SirNibbles]

Think there was a bit of a misunderstanding; Peerless Archer gets the Ranged Sneak Attack class feature, which is just like normal sneak attack but it doesn't work with melee weapons at all.

You're looking for ways to deny Dex to qualify for sneak attack damage at range, not ways to get the Ranged Sneak Attack class feature.

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The Invisible Fist Monk ACF can give you immediate-action Invisibility every 3 rounds if you just want it for a ranged Steal Spells. Think you need Monk 3 for it, though, it replaces Evasion.

Monk 2, not 3, for Evasion (or the Invisible Fist ACF). Invisible Fist is from Exemplars of Evil, page 21.

You could choose to go Sidewinder Monk (Dragon Magazine #331, page 89) if you wanted to take 3 levels, since that third level gives you an extra 1d6 sneak attack and you're still able to get the Invisible Fist ACF.

[rrwoods]

Winning initiative over (or surprising) your target (or both!) means they’re flat footed during your first turn (or two!).

[Luckmann]

Is that enhancement consistently applied like that?

Even if it is, that would require 2 party members to count as flanking (since you cannot be one of the flankers)I can't read it any other way, and yeah, I realize that it'd require 2 party members to flank - which would become ridiculously easy if at least one of them is using Island of Blades. Another option is to be a 4th-level Ranger with the Distracting Shot ACF (remember, you're your own ally).
If it is though, I need to start using that enhancement. It's not clear since it says it stacks with the other damage - but only says the 1d6 is added to a flanked opponent. You could read that only the 1d6 is applied at range, even if you allow that.In all honesty, I could see a DM ruling it either way, which is a problem. That said, I'd argue for my interpretation based on the fact that if it's not intended to stack with other sources that are not normally triggered (but that are implied to now be triggered, IMO), then why even mention it, since they'd trigger independantly otherwise anyway, and thus "stack"? You see what I'm getting at?

[DEMON]

I can't read it any other way, and yeah, I realize that it'd require 2 party members to flank - which would become ridiculously easy if at least one of them is using Island of Blades. Another option is to be a 4th-level Ranger with the Distracting Shot ACF (remember, you're your own ally).In all honesty, I could see a DM ruling it either way, which is a problem. That said, I'd argue for my interpretation based on the fact that if it's not intended to stack with other sources that are not normally triggered (but that are implied to now be triggered, IMO), then why even mention it, since they'd trigger independantly otherwise anyway, and thus "stack"? You see what I'm getting at?

You'd lose that argument at my table (i.e. you'd get rule zeroed, the actual wording is indeed in your favor). My reading is: "This ability adds +1d6 damage in these sneak attack granting situation and exlicitly stacks with sneak attack that it mentions as -also- applying. It's also poorly worded and can be interpreted that it works for any flanked target that you don't flank yourself. Also gives another unrelated benefit and requires sneak attack to create for some reason."

[Luckmann]

You'd lose that argument at my table (i.e. you'd get rule zeroed, the actual wording is indeed in your favor). My reading is: "This ability adds +1d6 damage in these sneak attack granting situation and exlicitly stacks with sneak attack that it mentions as -also- applying. It's also poorly worded and can be interpreted that it works for any flanked target that you don't flank yourself. Also gives another unrelated benefit and requires sneak attack to create for some reason."There's no defense for Rule 0, so I wouldn't consider that losing the argument really, but I genuinely believe that the intent is for it to work on flanked enemies regardless of whether you're the one flanking or not, and that it's meant to stack with any other sneak attack/precision damage.

While that's arguably absurdly cheap at +1, I just don't see the point of the special quality at all, otherwise, if all it does is add +1d6 Sneak Attack, nor the point of wording it the way it is, when something along the lines of "You gain a 1d6 Sneak Attack damage as per the rogue class ability when attacking with this weapon" or similar would've sufficed. You'd be better off simply adding 1d6 Fire Damage or whatever.

[DEMON]

While that's arguably absurdly cheap at +1, I just don't see the point of the special quality at all, otherwise, if all it does is add +1d6 Sneak Attack, nor the point of wording it the way it is, when...

Wording was always a weak spot for the 3.5 authors and let's not forget it also gives a boost to poison attacks. It actually gives a free feat/ability in terms of Poison Mastery.
As you have said, for the price of +1, it offers decent benefits without the liberal reading.

But, that said, if your DM is okay with your ruling, I'm not going to fight that. I'm just point out that it wouldn't slide at my table, as I think it's not RAI and is yet another case of reading too much into a poorly written description and selling it as the true RAW. But then again, I'm usually the anti-strict-RAW kind of guy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Darklight (SoS) and a way to see through nonmagical darkness are a very cheap and reliable combo to consistently get sneak attacks.
Combine with a Ring of the Darkhidden to make it work on creatures with darkvision.

The only downside is that you need some way of fueling the Darklight with power points. It's very efficient with them so you don't need a lot, but you need some.
So you need a psionic character in the party or get them yourself somehow.

It's also cheesy as hell so expect your DM to either ban the Darklight or for there to suddenly be a lot of casters with light spells among your enemies.

[Luckmann]

It's also cheesy as hell so expect your DM to either ban the Darklight or for there to suddenly be a lot of casters with light spells among your enemies.Oh, I'm sure they won't. After all, giving them Ebon Eyes is far easier. :grin:

[RNightstalker]

The combination of a ring of blinking and the seeking property is potent. Ring of blinking means you strike as if invisible (-> sneak attack applies) while seeking cancels out the downside of blinking.

The only drawback to blinking is vision is limited on the Material Plane to 60 ft.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only drawback to blinking is vision is limited on the Material Plane to 60 ft.

You also have to reactivate it every 7 rounds if you're using the ring, costing you a turn every fight.
And moving at 3/4 speed can be a problem, especially for smaller races with only 20ft speed to begin with.

I'd also argue that Seeking doesn't negate the 20% miss chance from Blink because that's caused by being ethereal.
Few things let you attack the material from the ethereal plane (Seeking doesn't) but i admit it's RAW since Seeking doesn't specify when it says it negates "any" miss chance.

[TheCount]

control light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlLight.htm), 1st lvl psionic power, can make complete darkness or as bright as day, for 1 minute

same thing as darklight lanter basically, but comes onlyine a loooooooooot sooner.

edit: nvm darklight IS really more effective, imma putting it on my list of nice to have stuff

[Crake]

I can't read it any other way, and yeah, I realize that it'd require 2 party members to flank - which would become ridiculously easy if at least one of them is using Island of Blades. Another option is to be a 4th-level Ranger with the Distracting Shot ACF (remember, you're your own ally).In all honesty, I could see a DM ruling it either way, which is a problem. That said, I'd argue for my interpretation based on the fact that if it's not intended to stack with other sources that are not normally triggered (but that are implied to now be triggered, IMO), then why even mention it, since they'd trigger independantly otherwise anyway, and thus "stack"? You see what I'm getting at?

Flanking is relative, not objective, an enemy may be flanked to you while not being flanked to someone else, so for that wording to work, you need to be part of the flanking equation, otherwise to you the opponent is never flanked.

[Luckmann]

Flanking is relative, not objective, an enemy may be flanked to you while not being flanked to someone else, so for that wording to work, you need to be part of the flanking equation, otherwise to you the opponent is never flanked.
Did you read the rules text? It specifically states "or who is flanked"; it doesn't state "who is flanked by you" or anything to the wording of a rogue's sneak attack ("when the rogue flanks her target").

The point here is precisely that you're *not* flanking here, and nobody has made the argument that you're flanking or that you'd be getting flanking bonuses. The enemy doesn't need to be flanked by you, it just needs to be flanked by *someone*. Nothing in the wording of the Assassination magic weapon special ability wording even suggests you have to "be part of the flanking equation".

If anything I said lead you to assume that it actually flanked, my apologies.
You also have to reactivate it every 7 rounds if you're using the ring, costing you a turn every fight.ACKSHUALLY, the description says that on Command, the ring makes you blink as per the Blink spell. It never states that you cast the spell, just that the blinking that happens works as the blinking of the spell.

*dodges books thrown*

[Mr Adventurer]

.ACKSHUALLY, the description says that on Command, the ring makes you blink as per the Blink spell. It never states that you cast the spell, just that the blinking that happens works as the blinking of the spell.

*dodges books thrown*

Command word activation is a standard action.

[Luckmann]

Command word activation is a standard action.I know, the joke was that it lasts indefinitely once activated.

Edit: While we're on the topic, if a DM insists that a Ring of Blinking only lasts 7 rounds, a better option is an Armor or Bracers of Armor +1 with the Blinking Magic Armor Ability from Shining South. It only costs 15 000gp, compared to the Ring of Blinking at 27 000gp, and explicitly lasts for 10 rounds. A pair of Blinking Bracers of Armor +1 would only cost 16 000gp. It's amazing for monks, especially.