Pricing a Custom Item- Ring of Knocks

[Feddlefew]

Background: One of the players in an upcoming game is playing a dragon wyrmling rogue*, and would like a way to open locked containers since their clawed hands prevent them from using lockpicks. We have 50K each to spend on magic items, and he still has 30K left over. All semblance of balance has long fled the building, so I figured I might as well take a crack at making a magic item for him.

The backup is a few sets of Chimes of Openings, so DM veto won't really stop him from breaking into things.


Ring of Knocks

When you use your action to tap or knock on a locked object thee times with the hand wearing the Ring of Knocks, the Ring of Knocks casts Knock on the object.

Features:
-Knock as a touch spell.
-CL 5th (50 sq feet of door is probably enough)
-Unlimited use per day
-Command Word (?)
-Casts Knock as a touch spell.

My estimates using the DMG item pricing guide put this item in the 10K-18K range.

*He is the single weakest party member right now and desperately needs items to compensate.

Edit: Restrictions regarding source books.

The DM is limiting us to PHB I+ DMG (Magic Item section only) + 2 other sources. Sources must have been printed at one point, individual issues of Dragon Magazine count as one source. Dragon Compendium is not a valid source, nor is the SRD.

The Rogue has chosen Draconomicon and Magic Item Compendium.

[Biggus]

Looks about right, the price with standard range comes out to 18K, but as far as I know there's no official guidelines for reducing price for a lesser range. As far as I can see the main downside to it being touch is that you might sometimes get hit by traps, I can't imagine you'd often need to open doors from a distance for any other reason. Maybe a 20% reduction?

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Yeah, your range is right, 2(spell level)x caster level x 1800 plus the value of the ring itself.

So depends what the caster level of the spell is.

For reference there's also ring of lockpicking in Complete Adventurer. 4500 for +5 to lock pick, picks are built into the ring, also gives CL 5 knock 1/day. Built in picks might let your wyrmling pick locks the old fashioned way.


Edit:saged

[Feddlefew]

Yeah, your range is right, 2(spell level)x caster level x 1800 plus the value of the ring itself.

So depends what the caster level of the spell is.

For reference there's also ring of lockpicking in Complete Adventurer. 4500 for +5 to lock pick, picks are built into the ring, also gives CL 5 knock 1/day. Built in picks might let your wyrmling pick locks the old fashioned way.


Edit:saged

We've looked at the item. If the ring's lockpicks are not considered tools, then dragons can use it in place of lockpicks and we'll use that item. If not, then we're looking for a magic item which can spam Knock.

Edited for clarity.

[Vaern]

As useful as an item that casts knock as an at-will ability would be, it makes Open Lock a dead skill and only trivializes the rogue's role in the party that much more. A Ring of Knocks isn't really an item for a rogue. It's an item for a party that is missing a rogue.

As an alternative, I'd recommend an effect more along the lines of Instant Locksmith. When cast, the caster may make a Disable Device or Open Lock check as a free action with a +2 insight bonus. It's a 1st level spell, and since it requires making a normal skill check on the lock you don't need to pump up the caster level to affect larger doors. It could function in the same way as your Ring of Knocks - the wearer knocks on the door three times in an attempt to force it open. This way, though, the ring can't simply be passed around and used by someone other than the rogue (as the skills still can't be used untrained) and he won't end up feeling like investing in Open Lock was a waste of skill points.
An item that simply replicates the effect of this spell would cost 1,800 gp (1st level spell x CL 1 x 1,800 command word).
To spice it up a bit, adding a +5 competence bonus to both open lock and disable device (in addition to the insight bonus granted by the spell effect itself) would costs 2,500 apiece bringing the cost up to 7,300 gp.
In addition, since the item still requires that you be able to make Open Lock or Disable Device checks and these skills can't be used untrained, you can probably get away with the 10% cost reduction for skill requirements bringing the cost down to a final total of 6,570.

[Feddlefew]

As useful as an item that casts knock as an at-will ability would be, it makes Open Lock a dead skill and only trivializes the rogue's role in the party that much more. A Ring of Knocks isn't really an item for a rogue. It's an item for a party that is missing a rogue.

The party rogue is a dragon wyrmling, and can wear rings but not use tools. We're looking into theive's tools alternatives, but this is the backup item.

[BaronDoctor]

Would something like a Mouthpick Quarterstaff with an on-command Stick cantrip work for letting them use Thieves' Tools?

Mouthpick: allow a creature with a bite to use a weapon as though they had hands.
Stick: Attach one item to another until removed deliberately or exposed to sufficient removing force.

Mouthpick is a +1 bonus (so, 2000 GP) and Stick is a cantrip (900 gp on command). Even rounding to 3,000 GP, I have to imagine that's a lot cheaper than 10-15k, and it lets them actually use their skills.
Maybe Spell Storing on the other end (carrying Knock at character generation) and at that point it's cheaper to buy it from spellcasting services in towns (60 gp).

Maybe some Spell-Storing-Shurikens of Knock (ammo pricing for 5 of them would still be a tenth of the normal price) with a Stick cantrip to be able to pop things open on contact from far away?

The ring is reasonable if that's what you want, but a Mouthpick Quarterstaff with Stick to work with Thieves' Tools embraces the "Dragon" part of the character while still letting them do the "Rogue" bits.

Throw in a 5/day "Ugh, it's just too hard, I'm gonna bash it open with magic" Knock end and you've got an interesting little tool that looks like a nice little boring stick. Bonus points if you give it a history of having belonged to an ancient "cat" burglar that was actually an awakened cat of some kind.

[Zaq]

Have you looked at the gloves of man in Savage Species?

[BaronDoctor]

Have you looked at the gloves of man in Savage Species?

OP would need a custom model with certain limitations to get it under their 30k gp budget.

[Feddlefew]

Thank y'all for the alternative item suggestions, but there is a major limiting factor I forgot to mention in the OP:

The DM is limiting us to PHB I+ DMG (Magic Item section only) + 2 other sources. Sources must have been printed at one point, individual issues of Dragon Magazine count as one source. Dragon Compendium is not a valid source, nor is the SRD.

The Rogue has chosen Dracanomicon and Magic Item Compendium.

I am the usual DM for this group. I am running a 5e weird wild west game, which is nominally high power because everyone has guns. However, I can only prep enough content for every other week. I'm glad the DM for this game has stepped up to the plate, but I suspect they maaaaay be using this to run D&D the way they think I should be running it for them. So right now I'm trying to help the group (some of whom have never played 3.5 :smalleek:) put together mostly sane, functional characters.

This is proving difficult.

We are going to be playing in a "High Power" game. We have not being give an optimization range, and I suspect that's on purpose. We will not roll are stats until the day of the game, but that's a moot point since the stat rolling method is interesting.* This, as you can imagine, means we're going to spend an entire session filling out character sheets, since no one can actually build characters without stats.

We can have 1 template AND one race totaling less than or equal to LA +5. You read that right- not ECL, LA. Extra hit dice are not being counted. We are starting at PC Class level 5, and the rogue wyrmling's dragon advancement is gestalted with rogue for sanity.

The Rogue is still probably the weakest known party member, by far.

The aforementioned source limit is pretty crippling for most of the party, since in practice it means they have 1 source + Magic Item Compendium or Spell Compendium. MM I is an extra source.** Erata is an extra source. I do not have Magic Item Compendium on hand right now, since my character (Necropolitin Sun/Undeath Cleric***) and the Wilder aren't hampered in the slightest by these restrictions, since we both don't really need 50K in magic items to function and only need one source book to be effective.

It's not bad, per say. We're having fun building characters we'd never normally play. I'm just very concerned by the rulings and the general lack of info on what we'll be doing with these characters.


*Roll 4d6, reroll all 1s and 2s until there are none, drop low, take best 6 results of 7. Through the magic of anydice we've worked out that this averages out to a 45-50 point buy. We also get +2 attribute increase on even levels. :smallconfused:

**I suspect there's a specific build they're trying to block but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. Something druid related, maybe?

*** I am acting party mind control / vampire thrall / surprise incorporeal undead fail safe.

[BaronDoctor]

How's a custom item of Mage Hand on command grab you? Still silly cheap, still lets them do the lockpicking thing normally (and do any other normal boring non-combat work you'd need hands for), now with the extra added bonus of fitting in the itty bitty living space typically reserved for phenomenal cosmic power.

[DeTess]

Could the rogue be a silver dragon wyrmling? That way he can get hands whenever he needs them (Or well, 3/day for an indefinite time).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm AFB so i can't look it up but iirc dragon claws are explicitly mentioned to be dexterous enough to be used for any purpose that can be done with hands.
I think that bit was in Draconomicon, but it's been a while since it even came up in any game i've been in.


How's a custom item of Mage Hand on command grab you? Still silly cheap, still lets them do the lockpicking thing normally (and do any other normal boring non-combat work you'd need hands for), now with the extra added bonus of fitting in the itty bitty living space typically reserved for phenomenal cosmic power.

You don't need a custom item, Hand of the Mage is Core content.

[BaronDoctor]

You don't need a custom item, Hand of the Mage is Core content.

You do if you want it slotless or on a different slot, but yeah, hand of the mage would work.

[Quertus]

You don't need a custom item, Hand of the Mage is Core content.

You do if you want it slotless or on a different slot, but yeah, hand of the mage would work.

That's my vote. (Well, and to avoid carrying around a mummified elf hand, too)


The DM is limiting us to PHB I+ DMG (Magic Item section only) + 2 other sources.

Do you use limited sources when you GM?


The Rogue has chosen Dracanomicon and Magic Item Compendium.

Hard to argue with that.


We can have 1 template AND one race totaling less than or equal to LA +5. You read that right- not ECL, LA. Extra hit dice are not being counted.

So, if you find a 15 HD with +1 LA, it's fine? And you… just don't get the HD?


We are starting at PC Class level 5, and the rogue wyrmling's dragon advancement is gestalted with rogue for sanity.

Gestalt is Unearthed Arcana. Doesn't that count as an extra source?


MM I is an extra source.**


**I suspect there's a specific build they're trying to block but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. Something druid related, maybe?

Maybe trying to limit Polymorph abuse? Or summoning versatility? Or just Planar Shepherd.


Erata is an extra source.

Wait, what? :smallconfused: I would totally abuse some "original form" rules, given this stipulation.

[Feddlefew]

Hey, thanks for the help guys.

Unfortunately, yesterday the DM for this game gave us another set of house rules (regarding skills and how they intend to handle DC scaling to compensate) that they plan to use, and that made me, the dragon player, and one other drop.

[BaronDoctor]

Well yuck. If you don't mind my asking, how crazy were they?

[Feddlefew]

We asked them about skills since we don't want to spend forever assigning them, and one player suggested we just assign our bare minimum ahead of time, since we can't have any stats lower than 9 based on the previously mentioned stat gen rules. The DM then informed us that we had.... "options" for assigning skill points. My thoughts are in italics.


1) No cross-class skills.
Cross class skills are annoying, but this could cause some weirdness. Eh, whatever.

2) Two options for skills:

a) By the book ([class skill points per level] + int) skills, x4 at first level, but no max skill ranks.
Okay, well, this might break some math, but our stats are already going through the roof-

b) Every skill on your sheet has ranks equal to ([class skill points per level] + level + int). Because, according to them, it's simpler and apparently equivalent to the first one. Later they admitted that this is in no way shape or form equivalent to the first, and it's our fault if we go with the normal skill point distribution and fall behind.
Wait wait what? This is not equivalent to the first. That's replacing the first level's x4 with a x31 (more if you have more skills). Not only is this significantly worse in the long run for most classes, since most characters only need to get skills to 5 ranks going to completely break skill synergies. At least skill synergies only apply once.

3)Skill synergies increase every 5 ranks in a skill that gives them, rather than once.
The dragon player did some quick calculations and realized that, with this rule in play, diplomacy was going to be minimum +44 at game start using the second option, since their min intelligence is +1 using the stat gen rules they gave us, and they planned to boost charisma for UMD. :smalleek:

When we asked how the DM planned to handle characters having epic level skill levels at level 5, the DM informed us they'd scale up the DCs to compensate. Same with monster stats. They refused to clarify if it was on a per character or group basis- we suspect the later- and kept repeating "the math is simpler" when asked about the second skill option, even though that method makes synergies a nightmare to keep track of.

For the record, my character is a necromancy (and divine metamagic) cleric. I built my PC this way because the DM loves vampires, mentioned there would be a lot of undead, and that we could expect to gain more templates as the game progressed. I felt like I might be needing a way to suddenly and massively boost my casting power. However, most of my PCs abilities and spells target HD, so I asked if that was going to be scaled too- since that would be terrible- and they reminded me that I would level up. :smallconfused:

Then they mentioned, unprompted, that DCs would increase in difficulty if we angered NPCs. So a bunch of us collectively said "nah" and decided (in private, obviously) to meet at my place for Monster of the Week until we could set up an alternate game.
We're thinking we might do "Untitled Goose Game / It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, but it's Curse of Strahd" with our character concepts when they're DMing the rest of the group. Of course, we'd allow the dragon to use tools, but the Lockpicking Ring looks pretty nice.

TL;DR: DM introduces house rules that snap 3.5's math in half, refuses to clarify, players flee.