What Tier Is Factotum Belong To?

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm curious about what tier is factotum class belong to?

[NNescio]

I'm curious about what tier is factotum class belong to?

Tier 3. Poster boy for Tier 3 too (basically exemplifying its very definition), if not for its relative obscurity (somewhat).

[Bartmanhomer]

Tier 3. Poster boy for Tier 3 too (basically exemplifying its very definition), if not for its relative obscurity.

Wow a solid class. :eek:

[bean illus]

It barely makes T3, except for extra standard moves, and access to 7th level arcane. It's capstone ability is cool, but getting it at 20th level diminishes its usefulness.

[Bartmanhomer]

It barely makes T3, except for extra standard moves, and access to 7th level arcane. It's capstone ability is cool, but getting it at 20th level diminishes its usefulness.

Wait this class can cast spells. Wow! :eek:

[Afghanistan]

Wait this class can cast spells. Wow! :eek:

Sort of. If memory serves it is only one sorcerer/wizard spell of each level, which while not bad, is still a bit meh? Great class if you want to play a priest of the Galactic Spirit and fool some primitives into thinking you're unironically a holy person with magical powers.

[Bartmanhomer]

Sort of. If memory serves it is only one sorcerer/wizard spell of each level, which while not bad, is still a bit meh? Great class if you want to play a priest of the Galactic Spirit and fool some primitives into thinking you're unironically a holy person with magical powers.

Cool. I might want to play a factotum someday. This class have some potential. :smile:

[BaronDoctor]

UMD access gets you a certain amount of guaranteed utility. Access to some spells on your own, generally a crucial buff here or there, helps some more.

8 levels in it for extra standard action and then ducking out, either for something fast-progression or friendly to late-stage multiclassing...well, it's a way to attach extra standard actions to 9th level spells. (Warblade for Int synergy and initiators being friendlier to coming late to the party? A level in Bard and then Sublime Chord to do an impression of a reasonably-skillful Sorcerer type? Anything for a level or two and then Divine Crusader? Ur-Priest would work.)

It runs into the Bard Problem (good enough to be second-fiddle at a lot of things, but a master of just one) without really being a master of anything.

[Bartmanhomer]

UMD access gets you a certain amount of guaranteed utility. Access to some spells on your own, generally a crucial buff here or there, helps some more.

8 levels in it for extra standard action and then ducking out, either for something fast-progression or friendly to late-stage multiclassing...well, it's a way to attach extra standard actions to 9th level spells. (Warblade for Int synergy and initiators being friendlier to coming late to the party? A level in Bard and then Sublime Chord to do an impression of a reasonably-skilful Sorcerer type? Anything for a level or two and then Divine Crusader? Ur-Priest would work.)

It runs into the Bard Problem (good enough to be second-fiddle at a lot of things, but a master of just one) without really being a master of anything.

Wow. This must be the best Tier 3 class that I've ever heard. :smile:

[Buufreak]

Wow. This must be the best Tier 3 class that I've ever heard. :smile:

Hardly. Factotum is good at pretending to do what other classes do. And a huge thing to remember about the tier system is it looks at classes in vacuum. Factotum, in vacuum, is meh. Factotum, with levels in urpriest stops being a factotum very quickly.

[Crake]

I'm curious about what tier is factotum class belong to?

Have you actually read jaronk's tier post? It's literally listed in there.

[bean illus]

Cool. I might want to play a factotum someday. This class have some potential. :smile:

The best levels are 3, 8, and 11.
Brains over Brawn includes such things as int to initiative, trip, grapple, and anything you can get your dm to call a str/dex check, as well as its standard uses.
Cunning surge gives extra standard actions for the win.
Cunning breach ignores damage reduction and spell resistance for the win.

You also get arguably the best skill access in the game, including UMD.

You'll definitely want/need the Font of Inspiration feat.

[Bartmanhomer]

Have you actually read jaronk's tier post? It's literally listed in there.

No I have not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've seen it in play and I've built it myself. Upper T4 to lower T3, at best.

It can do a little of everything but it doesn't do any of it very well. At all.

With good gear choices and kludging its anemic casting with UMD it just barely crosses the line.

Don't fall into the font of inspiration trap. Either you take it for all your feats and lose out on feats or you don't and it doesn't give enough points to make much difference.

The worst parts of it are the terrible editing on the class description and the horribly unintuitive nature of it. Once you've cleared up what all the abilities do and have the per encounter nature of inspiration points sorted out, you still need to have a pretty solid degree of system mastery for a factotum to not straight-up suck.

[Deadkitten]

Ya know, seeing this thread made me look at the class again and i might have noticed something fun.

Factotums cast their spells as spell like abilities, but they still get to use metamagic on them.
This probably means that, since metamagic modifies the spell slot used that you can load as many of them onto a spell as you want and it not matter, only using a normal spell choice instead of a higher one if available.

[tterreb]

Ya know, seeing this thread made me look at the class again and i might have noticed something fun.

Factotums cast their spells as spell like abilities, but they still get to use metamagic on them.
This probably means that, since metamagic modifies the spell slot used that you can load as many of them onto a spell as you want and it not matter, only using a normal spell choice instead of a higher one if available.

It specifies you need to be able to use spells of the modified spell's level.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, factotum is definitely not a poster child for T3. It's very low in the tier, kinda just barely above the line. Like, you get spells, which is nice, obvs, and you're certainly good at skills, but your spells per day are minimal, your combat abilities are comparable to a monk's, and you're surprisingly MAD for a class whose whole schtick is adding Int to everything.

[Sutr]

Minmax used to debate this one a lot barely 3 probably 4. The tier thread isn't entirely non biased. Jaronk admitted he really liked the class. Justifications were based a little on iajitsu focus. The spells that he used were pretty high op and also on the adept list. It pretty much only works if you can find a reliable use for the extra actions. So its squirrelly to nail down before it gets those actions and confusing afterwards.

Also encounter not well defined within the rules for out of combat inspiration uses.

[Eldariel]

I mean, it has an easy access to (Lesser) Planar Binding and Animate Dead, both of which are pretty darn nice. Animate Dead is half the reason Adept is Tier 4 (though the spell is strong enough that you could argue for a bit higher than that) and Factotum gets that on level 10 and Lesser Planar Binding on 13. Planar Binding comes on 15, which is quite late, but certainly still an incredible spell at that point. In general, having an automatic access to the whole Wiz/Sorc list (up to spell level 7) is pretty great, though of course it doesn't play to their low level strengths (Str/Dex checks, martial bonuses) at all. For combat casting, they admittedly have a very restricted number of spells per day; one 2nd and one 1st level spell on level 5 is quite nice but not enough to make an entire character. Though again, the fact that these spells can be any Sorc/Wiz spells is real nice and you thus get automatic access to some top-of-the-line buffs (with the way the spells work obviously you're incentivized to pick useful long duration buffs for when combat is to be expected). They obviously shine the most during downtime but they can help during combat too.

[Doctor Awkward]

In a vacuum Factotum is the poster boy from the Tier 3. This is due to its unique access to vast amounts of supplementary material: all skills from every book including alternate uses for those skills, any spells off of the sorcerer/wizard list, and the creative applications of the classes combat buffs via inspiration points.

All arguments against the factotums overall rating involve one of two things. The first is removing access to supplementary material which will always contain some variation of, "well what if the DM doesn't allow Oriental Adventures/X book/Y book/that one feat from a Wizard's web article?"

This is not judging the class in a vacuum, but rather in a practical table-top setting. While I agree that the potential effectiveness of the class does drop in such circumstances, that's not really the point of the Tier list. When rating a class you are supposed to be judging it from its maximum potential for use/abuse.

The second is applying Biblical literalism to interpreting the class features in such a way that renders them nonfunctional. While this makes for a "meh" thought exercise, it's essentially pointless as no DM would ever rule the class works (or in this case doesn't work) that way on account of far-reaching problems it would create with the rest of the rules.

[Deadkitten]

It specifies you need to be able to use spells of the modified spell's level.


Yea i follow, but unless im reading the rules on metamagic feats wrong, all metamagic does is use a higher level spell slot, it doesnt actually raise the spells level.

[heavyfuel]

The factotum is - to put it lightly - a poorly written class.

With the most permissive of DMs it's probably a Tier 2 class. With a strict DM, you'll be lucky to get a functional character, making it Tier 5.

In a strict RAW vacuum, one of its signature ability (Cunning Surge) doesn't even work. And no one short of the designer himself will ever convince me that it was ever meant to be a free action that you can use an arbitrary number of times. You also probably can't stack SA dice by RAW, though that is somewhat debatable. So it's probably Tier 4, not much better than an Expert with UMD.

In actual play, with most DMs, you'll probably get something like a low Tier 3 character. A good skill monkey with some versatility, but very little power. Getting 4 extra Standard actions in a combat doesn't mean much when your actions suck.

I'd honetly go for a Rogue over a Factotum any day of the week for a pure skill monkey. For jack-of-all-trades, go Bard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On iaijutsu focus;

Ignoring the source availability issue, it requires qutie a lot of investment in the skill if you want to be able to do it more than once in an encounter; max ranks, skill focus, cloak of charisma, competence bonus item, and; if you want to do it more than once in a turn with a level appropriate weapon; quick razor proficiency. All to do what a complete adventurer ninja can do natively.

Two feats and a big chunk of cash to match the combat ability of one of the weakest skill type classes in the game is -not- good. It's pitiful. Under a certain interpretation of item familiar, you can get half the bonus from that but item familiar itself is generally considered to be pure cheese because of that interpretation.

As an alternative or a supplement to that, you can take martial study and stance to pick up the assassin's stance maneuver from ToB and get your razors enhanced with deadly precision (old version) for 4d6 of sneak attack.

Seriously, even optimized for it, factotum is -bad- at combat. It takes everything you've got to reach the line that other warriors are starting at. Assuming you have all the necessary sources to put it together.

[Rynjin]

Yea i follow, but unless im reading the rules on metamagic feats wrong, all metamagic does is use a higher level spell slot, it doesnt actually raise the spells level.

Not read the class, but what this would mean is you could say, cast Quickened Magic Missile (an equivalent 5th level spell) using your 1st level SLA as long as you can cast 5th level spells, but you could not, for example, cast Quickened Wish, as you cannot cast 13th level spells.

[Deadkitten]

Not read the class, but what this would mean is you could say, cast Quickened Magic Missile (an equivalent 5th level spell) using your 1st level SLA as long as you can cast 5th level spells, but you could not, for example, cast Quickened Wish, as you cannot cast 13th level spells.

Honestly, just ignore my argument lol, it was 3am when i thought of it and i missed a portion of the metamagic rules that now unconvinced me.

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

Arcane Dilettante is a weird ability, but I don't think it gets around this part of metamagic rules.

[DEMON]

Now I will admit that im not a good rules guru on spellcasting, but since metamagic affects the spells SLOT and not its actuall level for rules purposes, you should be able to quicken it once you get acces to the spell as long as you have the feat.

Because while a quickened magic missle uses up a 5th level slot, you dont have spell slots while explicitly still being allowed to use metamagic on your SLAs, and a quickend magic missle still counts as a first level spell according to what i have read of the metamagic rules on the SRD.


If you wish to enhance a spell with a metamagic feat, you must apply the feat when you prepare the spell. In addition, you must be capable of using a spell of the modified spell's level.

Emphasis mine.
Sounds pretty straightforward to me, though I'm sure someone will have a different reading of that line.

[Deadkitten]

Emphasis mine.
Sounds pretty straightforward to me, though I'm sure someone will have a different reading of that line.


Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
Not read the class, but what this would mean is you could say, cast Quickened Magic Missile (an equivalent 5th level spell) using your 1st level SLA as long as you can cast 5th level spells, but you could not, for example, cast Quickened Wish, as you cannot cast 13th level spells.

Honestly, just ignore my argument lol, it was 3am when i thought of it and i missed a portion of the metamagic rules that now unconvinced me.

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
Arcane Dilettante is a weird ability, but I don't think it gets around this part of metamagic rules.

Ya beat me to the post as I was editing lol

[Elves]

That supports your point in general, though, if not with factotum due to the wording DEMON quoted. I pointed this out in regard to Havoc Mage's battlecast a couple days ago.

[Bartmanhomer]

Oh wow. I'm starting to like this class already. :smile:

[bean illus]

Oh wow. I'm starting to like this class already. :smile:

What part?

I find facto plays fine at level 1, when a lot of characters are unimpressive. You already get Int to attack/damage, and martial weapons, and customized skill access. Level 3 plays fine, with brains over brawn, essentially giving improved initiative and 30+ points of skill bonus.

It begins to feel thin as you go forward. Cunning strike is less effective than cunning knowledge, and opportunistic piety is cool but lackluster.

8th level is the next cutoff, for extra standard actions, but you have put most feat resources into font of inspiration. Casters are throwing 4th n 5th level spells, and you have one 3rd and two 2nd+/- spells.

It really does need a campaign with umd.

[Bartmanhomer]

What part?

I find facto plays fine at level 1, when a lot of characters are unimpressive. You already get Int to attack/damage, and martial weapons, and customized skill access. Level 3 plays fine, with brains over brawn, essentially giving improved initiative and 30+ points of skill bonus.

It begins to feel thin as you go forward. Cunning strike is less effective than cunning knowledge, and opportunistic piety is cool but lackluster.

8th level is the next cutoff, for extra standard actions, but you have put most feat resources into font of inspiration. Casters are throwing 4th n 5th level spells, and you have one 3rd and two 2nd+/- spells.

It really does need a campaign with umd.
Everything.

Hardly. Factotum is good at pretending to do what other classes do. And a huge thing to remember about the tier system is it looks at classes in vacuum. Factotum, in vacuum, is meh. Factotum, with levels in urpriest stops being a factotum very quickly.
It's still a solid class regardless.

[heavyfuel]

It's still a solid class regardless.

Solid like ice cream left in the sun.

Seriously though, if you have any intention of playing this class, check with your DM about how thay're going to rule each individual ability.

What counts as an encounter? Does inspiration have max limit? Can you stack Sneak Attack by spending Inspiration? What action is Cunning Surge? Can you use Cunning Surge more than once in a round?

Depending on the answers, the class can vary wildly from amazing to hot garbage.

[Doctor Awkward]

In a strict RAW vacuum, one of its signature ability (Cunning Surge) doesn't even work. And no one short of the designer himself will ever convince me that it was ever meant to be a free action that you can use an arbitrary number of times.

Case in point.

The argument here is that every other factotum ability lists what type of action it is to use and Cunning Surge does not. Therefore, per the general rules this means that activating Cunning Surge defaults to a standard action.

The problem with this argument is twofold:

-The Inspiration ability itself, the ability which is the source of the inspiration points, is not tagged as either Ex, Sp, or Su. Therefore the general rules for those three types do not apply.

-Choosing to ignore that, and focus on the fact that Cunning Surge is tagged as Ex also requires you to ignore the rules text there which states that, "using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion."

So whether or not you believe Cunning Surge does nothing rests on whether or not you feel that the act of thinking hard enough about the present situation to respond to it more quickly than a normal person could is something that can be done in a reactive fashion. If you do then using Cunning Surge does not require an action. You merely deduct your three inspiration points and carry out the rest of your turn-- as is clearly the intent of the ability.




...And as an aside, any time you see someone preface their belief with the phrase, "nothing will ever convince me...", they are showing you a huge red flag that they are defending an ideological position that is utterly immune to logic, reason, and evidence, and entirely founded in emotion and feelings.

[Buufreak]

...And as an aside, any time you see someone preface their belief with the phrase, "nothing will ever convince me...", they are showing you a huge red flag that they are defending an ideological position that is utterly immune to logic, reason, and evidence, and entirely founded in emotion and feelings.

You have thoroughly described and summarized every ******* that has ever existed on the internet. Care if I sig?

Also adding that most "change my mind" arguments and/or memes fall into the same boat.

[Doctor Awkward]

You have thoroughly described and summarized every ******* that has ever existed on the internet. Care if I sig?

Also adding that most "change my mind" arguments and/or memes fall into the same boat.

By all means. :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

...And as an aside, any time you see someone preface their belief with the phrase, "nothing will ever convince me...", they are showing you a huge red flag that they are defending an ideological position that is utterly immune to logic, reason, and evidence, and entirely founded in emotion and feelings.

Not only have you misquoted me, you left out the most important part of my quote: "no one short of the designer himself will ever convince me that"

My mentality is not as black and white as you try to demonstrate it is when you're not picking and choosing what to quote. I simply ask for evidence from the ONLY person that can provide evidence of RAI, the creator of the class.

Thing is, I've read plenty of arguments before and I don't believe the RAI is that Inpiration stacks indefinitely which you can then use for an arbitrary number of standard actions. So I stand by my point, unless the designer himself says that this really was his intention all along, I'm not buying it.

[Sutr]

We just limit it to swift at my table as one interpretation is nonfunctional and the other is kind of boring encouraging a first round nova every encounter.

[Godskook]

Not only have you misquoted me

He wasn't quoting you.


My mentality is not as black and white as you try to demonstrate it is

And yet, yeah, it basically is.

[bean illus]

We just limit it to swift at my table as one interpretation is nonfunctional and the other is kind of boring encouraging a first round nova every encounter.
Cunning surge can be used once per round. You need another 2 inspiration point for cunning knowledge. 5 per attack. If you spent all feats on FoI you could do that 4 times per encounter at level 12-15. But you still only get 1 spell of delayed level most encounters.

Of course wizards have much more power at those levels, including action economy exploitation.

So, as has been said, extra actions with little firepower.

I'll admit that I don't know anyway to make a factotum stronger than a wizard. Factotum is very feat starved, and trying to take advantage of FoI leaves you without anything else.

[Bartmanhomer]

Solid like ice cream left in the sun.

Seriously though, if you have any intention of playing this class, check with your DM about how thay're going to rule each individual ability.

What counts as an encounter? Does inspiration have max limit? Can you stack Sneak Attack by spending Inspiration? What action is Cunning Surge? Can you use Cunning Surge more than once in a round?

Depending on the answers, the class can vary wildly from amazing to hot garbage.

Geez so much questions for this class. Yikes. :eek:

[Lans]

What tier the Factotum winds up in depends on how you define the tiers.

[BlueWitch]

How is Factotum NOT the top Tier 3 class? I see a lot of elitism in this thread.

If Factotum isn't the Poster Boy for Tier 3, then who is? The Magus?

[Troacctid]

How is Factotum NOT the top Tier 3 class? I see a lot of elitism in this thread.

If Factotum isn't the Poster Boy for Tier 3, then who is? The Magus?
Magus isn't a class. The top T3 class is mystic ranger (although warmage and wilder are up there). The poster child is bard.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

How is Factotum NOT the top Tier 3 class?

Because it has a bunch of major flaws which other classes in Tier 3 don't have. A Bard, for example, competes well with them in the skillmonkey role but is far superior as a combatant and caster.


I see a lot of elitism in this thread.

Good. It's a thread about judging the relative worth of options and then placing them in a hierarchy - if there wasn't some elitism it would be doing something wrong.


If Factotum isn't the Poster Boy for Tier 3, then who is? The Magus?

If you include Pathfinder options, then yes, the Magus is a fairly archetypal and well-designed tier 3 class. Restricting it to 3.5, obvious examples would be the Bard, the Tome of Battle classes, and the Psychic Warrior.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'll admit that I don't know anyway to make a factotum stronger than a wizard.

Not stronger overall, but there are aspects in which it does better. It's not as squishy and can wear armor (although if you want a non-squishy wizard, cleric or druid is a more powerful option than factotum), it has acces to all skills as class skills, decent skill points and intelligence as a core class stat and the rogue's trap finding ability, so it's a better skill monkey that can still occasionally perform powerful magic than the wizard (although if that's what you want a bard or a UMD rogue or even a wizard with a one level dip in rogue, bard or expert works just fine).

Sure, those things are mostly relevant at lower levels, but most parts of the game that are not ultimate arcane power are mostly relevant at lower levels.

I'm going to dive a bit further into it by taking the three situations from the classic tier system thread:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.
In situation 1 the factotum can help with the traps and with minor encounters inside the cave, regaining inspiration points for every encounter. The track feat is far from a given, but it's not unthinkable that she took it to make better use of her skills, making finding the dragon rather than being found by it a lot easier. She's not quite at home versus a dragon maybe, being neither a sturdy frontliner or a powerful damage dealer, but she can open the fight strong if she prepares her spells for the day with a dragon in mind and saves those spells for this encounter. Overall a valuable team member.

For situation 2 I don't expect the intelligence based factotum to invest too much into the classical face skills, but many players will probably get decent ranks in at least one of them, particularly if they don't have another more full time face character in the party. So she can be of help talking to people. She might have knowledge skills that can help as well, and while not really a sneaking around kind of class at least she can do much of what she does without drawing an overly large amount of attention, and she can change her spells for the day to exclude fireball and include spells that reduce visibility and audibility, because she gets free choice from the wizard list every morning. So she's able to contribute.

Situation 3 is probably the roughest one on the factotum, being the one that exposes her lack of specialization. She's not really a character you'd pick to train or lead fresh warriors as a fighter might, she's not sneaky enough to sneak into an active enemy warcamp and assassinate a general as a rogue could, she's not enough of a caster to really turn the tide of battle by opening up the magic at the right moment like a wizard. And she's not enough of a talker to give enough people a large enough morale boost that it counts for something on a scale of armies, bard style. This one is really going to depend on player skill and DM leniency.

So now we have one example where the class is valuable, one where she can hold her own and one where she depends on the DM wanting her player to have a fun experience. While I was going to try and argue in favor of the factotum, I now find myself having to agree that this sounds more like a tier 4 than a tier 3. A tier 3 usually has something they can pull out of their head, either through having enough different options or having a good enough main shtick that it can be applied creatively to many situations. Most tier 3's and some tier 4's have some version of both. A bard usually has a way to contribute by buffing party members, but has enough charisma, skills and spells to find another way to work if needed. A rogue can usually find a way to apply her strengths of sneak attacking and trapfinding to a situation, but can fall back on general skill monkeying or a social role if she has to. The factotum has plenty of secondary skills which make her super versatile and even spoiled for choice in some situations, but not enough of a main strength she can use when the going gets though.

It's not a bad class at all. Best skill access in the game, high level spells, interesting options for fighting. It's a class for a creative player who likes inventing new challenges on the fly. But it's not particularly strong in the sense of a tier system. The creativity doesn't translate well to powergaming, and there's not enough of a core functionality to the class to guarantee it a role in any encounter.

So yeah, I'm pitting in with "high tier 4 or so, probably kinda". Despite the potential to sometimes nuke critical encounters with her spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

Because it has a bunch of major flaws which other classes in Tier 3 don't have. A Bard, for example, competes well with them in the skillmonkey role but is far superior as a combatant and caster.

Yet Bard has a much harder time with the creme de la crop minionmancy spells that Factotum effortlessly access. I'd certainly rate Animate Dead and the Planar Binding line higher than anything on the Bard list, since minionmancy is incredibly good. The fact that Factotum can't pay XP costs and lacks an actual arcane caster level are the only things keeping it from being absolutely ridiculous in this sense (this prevents the use of Animate Dread Warrior, Simulacrum, and spellstitching). Again, Factotum's casting isn't that good for combat but it's very good in the downtime and out of combat - zero effort full access to the Wizard-list including some of the most abusable spells in the game. Not Wizard (Tier 1), sure, but certainly competitive with any Tier 3.


Magus isn't a class. The top T3 class is mystic ranger (although warmage and wilder are up there). The poster child is bard.

Mystic Ranger is really weird though and for the first 10ish levels, easily a tier 1 class falling slowly to tier 3ish by the end of the progression so I don't think it really applies. I think it's the most polarized-by-level class since it stops progressing almost 10 levels earlier than other classes but it has awesome progression up until then.

[bean illus]

Yet ... .... Again, Factotum's casting isn't that good for combat but it's very good in the downtime and out of combat - zero effort full access to the Wizard-list including some of the most abusable spells in the game. Not Wizard (Tier 1), sure, but certainly competitive with any Tier 3.


Factotum really is much more fun at a table with lots of ooc time.

[Sutr]

Um... so what if just for example, a standard parity agreement doesn't allow casters to bring the last two monsters as zombies and planar bind something every day.

I know it veers into house rules, but what I've seen in the play by posts I dont find it to be uncommon.

[Eldariel]

Um... so what if just for example, a standard parity agreement doesn't allow casters to bring the last two monsters as zombies and planar bind something every day.

I know it veers into house rules, but what I've seen in the play by posts I dont find it to be uncommon.

Just Planar Bind something once and keep the biggest thing you've killed as a Zombie/Skeleton is more than enough to push it ahead of the others. Conveniently it can also cast Command Undead (albeit only once per day so it's limited in how many things it can keep Commanded) so it's not like it's a huge problem. Unless the abilities are banned entirely (when we're talking about an entirely different game), they'll be enough to push the class comfortably to high tier 3. Both stick around for a long time, Animated Dead indefinitely or until killed and Planar Bound things for day/CL (so about two weeks when you first get the ability).

EDIT: Of course, the class also gets all the other long time prep effects Wizards get starting from level 8 (level 5 for Wizards): Sepia Snake Sigil, Explosive Runes and particularly Shrink Item are big game for prepping. There are others too but the big core ones are the ones that are the easiest to point out. In general, these kinds of effects are something Factotum casting is much better suited for than trying to cast in combat.

[Eldariel]

In situation 1 the factotum can help with the traps and with minor encounters inside the cave, regaining inspiration points for every encounter. The track feat is far from a given, but it's not unthinkable that she took it to make better use of her skills, making finding the dragon rather than being found by it a lot easier. She's not quite at home versus a dragon maybe, being neither a sturdy frontliner or a powerful damage dealer, but she can open the fight strong if she prepares her spells for the day with a dragon in mind and saves those spells for this encounter. Overall a valuable team member.

Don't forget potential minions from magic, knowledge buffs (the 1/day class level to skill roll is huge for finding out obscure stuff about anything), nor their skill-based options. Factotums have the option of being really good at either Iaijutsu Focus, Lucid Dreaming, or Diplomacy. Of these Diplomacy is the most likely to come into play but only until mid-levels; grappling the Dragon is only doable if it isn't old enough to have preventative magic in place and if the Factotum can cast Polymorph (grappling is a prerequisite for Lucid Dreaming to do much) and Iaijutsu Focus is also only a melee option. Still, these three are at least worth factoring in for their combat prowess.


For situation 2 I don't expect the intelligence based factotum to invest too much into the classical face skills, but many players will probably get decent ranks in at least one of them, particularly if they don't have another more full time face character in the party. So she can be of help talking to people. She might have knowledge skills that can help as well, and while not really a sneaking around kind of class at least she can do much of what she does without drawing an overly large amount of attention, and she can change her spells for the day to exclude fireball and include spells that reduce visibility and audibility, because she gets free choice from the wizard list every morning. So she's able to contribute.

With even 1 rank in relevant skills, Factotum can use the 1/day bonus to get some real good numbers on their skill checks though. Also, their spells are pretty good for this kind of stuff; they can divine and cast on the ready, if not as well as real casters, then at least decently. And they have some nice check bonuses. Really, they're pretty much at home here as long as they've got a clear plan and are working with it.


Situation 3 is probably the roughest one on the factotum, being the one that exposes her lack of specialization. She's not really a character you'd pick to train or lead fresh warriors as a fighter might, she's not sneaky enough to sneak into an active enemy warcamp and assassinate a general as a rogue could, she's not enough of a caster to really turn the tide of battle by opening up the magic at the right moment like a wizard. And she's not enough of a talker to give enough people a large enough morale boost that it counts for something on a scale of armies, bard style. This one is really going to depend on player skill and DM leniency.

Well, the talky bits they can actually do really well again once per day. But again, here the preparatory magic is probably the biggest thing. Getting Wall of Stone and Move Earth and Planar Binding and that sort of stuff is just really strong for reshaping the battlefield. I posit their list is actually much better than a Bard's to this end, though Bard is obviously trouncing all over them in combat. Of course, the big thing is low levels. Factotum casting really picks up steam on 10-13; before level 10 their options are much more restricted and smaller case. Still solid, they can do almost anything and it's only down to player creativity, but they have fewer obvious "remake the world in my image" options.

[Silvercrys]

Yeah, it really depends on scope.

Factotum 20 with only core books + Dungeonscape in a campaign without magic marts is probably middle of T4.

Factotum 20 in a high op game with Oriental Adventures and Marbles from the AEG with a DM who doesn't adjust monsters to have ranks in Balance, with access to wands and splat book spells is probably low-middle Tier 3. Especially if you're breaking WBL through various methods.

You can make a T1/High T3 character with Factotum but you're not really a Factotum, you're a Sublime Chord or an Ur-Priest or a Warblade with extra standard actions.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it really depends on scope.

Factotum 20 with only core books + Dungeonscape in a campaign without magic marts is probably middle of T4.

I dunno, you still get all the minionmancy I mentioned. I have a hard time putting any T4 class on par with that. Adept is the only contender and it only gets one (arguably the weakest of the bunch).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

*Makes good points, especially on the third scenario where even just seven days worth of walls of stone probably does more for the defense than any pure martial class could hope to achieve.*

Yeah, good point. I guess with a skilled player and/or enough available source material they are a lot more tier 3 than I deduced.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Cunning surge is nice but a certain interpretation of the white raven tactics maneuver is strictly superior and much more broadly available; a couple thousand gold or a quick dip at level 9 or higher.

Given how pitiful the class is overall, I'm inclined to let cunning surge go as a non-action. Spells are great but a lot less so when they're 2 to 3 levels behind the game's power curve. With no way to mitigate metamagic costs and metamagic rods being ineffective with SLAs you're sinking a lot more into casting multiple spells in a round than any real caster that cares to do so.