divination vs. war magic wizards

[Klorox]

I’m going to be playing a wizard for the first time in quite a while, and I loosely base my playing style on the type of wizard in Treantmonk’s god wizard guide, which is to mean I’m more focused on supporting than blasting enemies (but I’m not opposed to the occasional direct damage).

Which fits the concept better? A diviner who gets the occasional (perfectly timed) d20 roll changed, or a war mage who will more often win the initiative, changing the outcome of battles by getting the jump on enemies?

[Gignere]

I’m going to be playing a wizard for the first time in quite a while, and I loosely base my playing style on the type of wizard in Treantmonk’s god wizard guide, which is to mean I’m more focused on supporting than blasting enemies (but I’m not opposed to the occasional direct damage).

Which fits the concept better? A diviner who gets the occasional (perfectly timed) d20 roll changed, or a war mage who will more often win the initiative, changing the outcome of battles by getting the jump on enemies?

I played a divination wizard but not a war wizard. I will say that if your DM allows it and uses group initiatives for enemies, having the ability to reduce every enemy’s or a group of enemies initiative was way better than just me winning initiative.

So I will say even in the initiative department divination wizards can potentially be way more impactful.

[RSP]

Depending on how creative you can be, and opportunities to use Divination spells during travel/down/non-combat time, Divination would be the better go. Expert Divination will help with spell slots while still allowing extra preparation for the party, which, I’d say, is better overall than a higher chance to win initiative.

However, if your campaigns tend to be more combat focused and dungeon crawly, War Magic is going to be more useful.

[Nhorianscum]

I’m going to be playing a wizard for the first time in quite a while, and I loosely base my playing style on the type of wizard in Treantmonk’s god wizard guide, which is to mean I’m more focused on supporting than blasting enemies (but I’m not opposed to the occasional direct damage).

Which fits the concept better? A diviner who gets the occasional (perfectly timed) d20 roll changed, or a war mage who will more often win the initiative, changing the outcome of battles by getting the jump on enemies?

War hands down, making your own saves, and going first is hugely important. We're using no-save control on resistant things anywho.

Diviner rolls are vastly overated in terms of breaking saves. In tier 2 we need to roll 7 or lower to break strong saves at roughly a 53% chance of netting one usable die a day. This ability does not break legendary resistance and must be declared ahead of time.

[Dork_Forge]

War Wizard would be best, keep your concentration up and help make sure you get the drop on the bad guys. Take Lucky and get that Divination feel going on as a bonus!

[Gignere]

War hands down, making your own saves, and going first is hugely important. We're using no-save control on resistant things anywho.

Diviner rolls are vastly overated in terms of breaking saves. In tier 2 we need to roll 7 or lower to break strong saves at roughly a 53% chance of netting one usable die a day. This ability does not break legendary resistance and must be declared ahead of time.

High rolls are good too it’s the mediocre rolls that you don’t know what to do with. I’ve used it to allow full plate cleric to stealth, saved a rogue from certain death because he needed a 20 to make the save. So as team support and for the GOD style it’s better than war which is all selfish, and to be honest stuff that’s needed because you made a mistake as a GOD wizard.

[PhantomSoul]

High rolls are good too it’s the mediocre rolls that you don’t know what to do with. I’ve used it to allow full plate cleric to stealth, saved a rogue from certain death because he needed a 20 to make the save. So as team support and for the GOD style it’s better than war which is all selfish, and to be honest stuff that’s needed because you made a mistake as a GOD wizard.

Or mediocre-but-below-10; once it's a 10 you can use that to help allies making death saves (situational, granted, but it's great when it's an option)

[Nhorianscum]

High rolls are good too it’s the mediocre rolls that you don’t know what to do with. I’ve used it to allow full plate cleric to stealth, saved a rogue from certain death because he needed a 20 to make the save. So as team support and for the GOD style it’s better than war which is all selfish, and to be honest stuff that’s needed because you made a mistake as a GOD wizard.

Serious reply: Great you plucked the 7.5% 20 on the exact day a rouge needed a 20... so you fizzled on that use 92.5% of the time. Stellar.

Divination is not remotely "bad" at all, but it's seriously overated due to this sort of confirmation bias. 1 die will hit a flat middling number 38% of the time and 10ish% of the time both will. This is running at half power or just... not at all 4 days out of 10. We can of course influence these rolls to be better or worse with party support but that works just as well on a spontaneous roll.

By contrast war gives +4 to saves to keep control going and +intmod to us sticking that effect when it's most relevant. This is consistantly more valuable as it applies to every single impactful roll in these areas with a similar or greater chance modifier than any single divination roll will offer.


Silly answer: Wild Magic Sorc best wizard confirmed!!!

[MaxWilson]

Which fits the concept better? A diviner who gets the occasional (perfectly timed) d20 roll changed, or a war mage who will more often win the initiative, changing the outcome of battles by getting the jump on enemies?

If Diviners could actually change rolls then I would say Diviner is definitely better, but they can't--once dice are rolled it is too late to use Portent. Portent is used instead of rolling a die, whereas Arcane Deflection is used after rolling dice and is therefore more efficient.

Diviners are better at very high level because they are better at weird tricks like Wish (Planar Binding) to take permanently take control of a CR 9-13ish enemy right in the middle of combat, and keep it for the rest of the adventure. But at low levels it's pretty much tied between them. You can have two very-reliable rolls per day (high Portent dice for initiative, low dice for enemy saving throws) or you can be fairly tanky and fairly fast (initiative bonus and save bonuses/mild AC bonuses) all the time.

I'd probably go Diviner but keep in mind that you're unlikely to get far enough to exploit its full potential.

[Sparky McDibben]

The other point here is which one is the most fun to play. Some people like playing optimally, and they really enjoy mild bonuses that work every time. Some people really enjoy being able to use a nat 20 on a Portent roll to bring back a downed ally who's on their second failed death save. In other words, diviners can be very swingy (like the dice), and that makes them a lot of fun when the dice work with you.

[Gignere]

Serious reply: Great you plucked the 7.5% 20 on the exact day a rouge needed a 20... so you fizzled on that use 92.5%


Silly answer: Wild Magic Sorc best wizard confirmed!!!

So what table top is all about the memorable times. No one remembers your +2 ac +4 save but the one time the rogue falls into an acid pool and survive that lives on long after it happens.

The cleric in full plate sneaking past a roomful of sleeping monsters that is epic.

The number of times the divination dice saved the days are enough to make for many memorable moments.

[Nhorianscum]

So what table top is all about the memorable times. No one remembers your +2 ac +4 save but the one time the rogue falls into an acid pool and survive that lives on long after it happens.

The cleric in full plate sneaking past a roomful of sleeping monsters that is epic.

The number of times the divination dice saved the days are enough to make for many memorable moments.

I'm not sure how walking past a room of things with a whopping 5-6 passive perception (or getting 1 more success on a group check) is epic. Help>Guidance wow the cleric passed.

Dieing or dropping effects are also memorable moments (in a negative way). These happen much more to diviners than they do to tank-mctankmagerton.

That said Diviner is fun, really no argument here. It's a good sub. It's also horrifically overated in mechanical sense. War is also fun in a "casting purely by flexing your unreasonably massive thews in your panzer cosplay" sort of way and the party mage doing that all-the-time is also memorable as hell.

[KnotaGuru]

I have the same dilemma. Our last session ended with us leveling up to level 2 so I'll need to decide which school to go with before the next session. I also like the GOD wizard play-style and have debated with going divination, war, abjuration, and even lore (UA is allowed). We rolled for stats and I'm playing a high elf wizard with 20 Dex, 18 Int. Divination sounds fun, but at only 2 portents/long rest and die roll variability I'm not sure how exciting it'll be. The campaign should go to level 12-15 so I'll be playing it for a while.

[Gignere]

I have the same dilemma. Our last session ended with us leveling up to level 2 so I'll need to decide which school to go with before the next session. I also like the GOD wizard play-style and have debated with going divination, war, abjuration, and even lore (UA is allowed). We rolled for stats and I'm playing a high elf wizard with 20 Dex, 18 Int. Divination sounds fun, but at only 2 portents/long rest and die roll variability I'm not sure how exciting it'll be. The campaign should go to level 12-15 so I'll be playing it for a while.

Go lore if you want maximum power it’s totally broken you’ll own the table.

[Gignere]

I'm not sure how walking past a room of things with a whopping 5-6 passive perception (or getting 1 more success on a group check) is epic. Help>Guidance wow the cleric passed.

Dieing or dropping effects are also memorable moments (in a negative way). These happen much more to diviners than they do to tank-mctankmagerton.

That said Diviner is fun, really no argument here. It's a good sub. It's also horrifically overated in mechanical sense. War is also fun in a "casting purely by flexing your unreasonably massive thews in your panzer cosplay" sort of way and the party mage doing that all-the-time is also memorable as hell.

Not the way I play my diviner, it’s a running joke in the campaign that I don’t even have an hps stat. 8 levels of play and I’ve taken damage maybe 3 times. I’ve made two concentration rolls in 8 levels. So honestly with my play style the war wizard benefits would have been a ribbon close to useless.

[Nhorianscum]

Not the way I play my diviner, it’s a running joke in the campaign that I don’t even have an hps stat. 8 levels of play and I’ve taken damage maybe 3 times. I’ve made two concentration rolls in 8 levels. So honestly with my play style the war wizard benefits would have been a ribbon close to useless.

The masterful play that avoids damage by the omniscient God that controls reality?

I'm not on that level, so the campain would have to be really easy, to the point where my sub was irrelevant, for me to replicate this preformance.

[Dark.Revenant]

Portents are always useful. They're inconsistent in which way they're useful, but they're always useful. Even the mediocre rolls; suppose you just really, REALLY need to not botch a check: throw a guaranteed 8 in there and sail to victory. I've used a 7 before to guarantee a paladin could hit/smite a low-AC boss monster for the kill. The trick is to just use them early and often, unless you get something really good like a 1 or 20 which you might save for later.

For god wizards, my go-to picks are War and Evocation, though Abjuration, Conjuration, and Divination get honorable mentions. War gives you the defenses you need and the initiative you need. It works well, and it works consistently. Evocation offers utter freedom with tactics and positioning, allowing you to capitalize upon your control spells for maximum effect. The other three offer various boons that are useful for god wizards as well, but Abjuration is too defense-focused, Conjuration is just not as impactful as the others, and Divination is too inconsistent.

[Gignere]

The masterful play that avoids damage by the omniscient God that controls reality?

I'm not on that level, so the campain would have to be really easy, to the point where my sub was irrelevant, for me to replicate this preformance.

I like War Wizard just not for GOD style. If I start a new game I’m probably going to play a a rogue / wizard multi and will use the War features much more. Since it will be frontlining and spending way less time buffing/ccing.

[MaxWilson]

The masterful play that avoids damage by the omniscient God that controls reality?

I'm not on that level, so the campain would have to be really easy, to the point where my sub was irrelevant, for me to replicate this preformance.

It helps if you're willing to stay out of range and/or cast spells like Expeditious Retreat instead of tanking. Also on how much the DM metagames against you, e.g. monsters that automatically notice and attack you by surprise whenever you're more than a few feet away from the party, even if you're sneaking around in the dark with Stealth +7 and they're relying on darkvision (so their perception should be at disadvantage).

Some DMs just see it as their job to punish players who aren't glued to the party.

[Tanarii]

How often will you use divi takin spells to trigger Expert Divination?

How often will you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic to trigger Power Surge?

If the answer to one is all the time, and the other almost never, use that info as your tie breaker.

[Klorox]

How often will you use divi takin spells to trigger Expert Divination?

How often will you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic to trigger Power Surge?

If the answer to one is all the time, and the other almost never, use that info as your tie breaker.

An important note is I don’t expect this campaign to go past 10 or 12 levels.

[Tanarii]

An important note is I don’t expect this campaign to go past 10 or 12 levels.
Those are level 6 abilities, so they'll be among your end-game features.

Otoh if you don't consider them important then they're not important.

[Dork_Forge]

How often will you use divi takin spells to trigger Expert Divination?

How often will you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic to trigger Power Surge?

If the answer to one is all the time, and the other almost never, use that info as your tie breaker.

Important to add onto this that you get one Power Surge every time you rest, so even if you never counter or dispel anything you still get that free bonus damage, versus Expert Diviniation which in theory you may never trigger.

[Callin]

Either way be sure to go halfling and take the racial feat to let your allies reroll 1s.

Im personally partial to War Wizard over Divination.

[JackPhoenix]

For god wizards, my go-to picks are War and Evocation, though Abjuration, Conjuration, and Divination get honorable mentions. War gives you the defenses you need and the initiative you need. It works well, and it works consistently. Evocation offers utter freedom with tactics and positioning, allowing you to capitalize upon your control spells for maximum effect. The other three offer various boons that are useful for god wizards as well, but Abjuration is too defense-focused, Conjuration is just not as impactful as the others, and Divination is too inconsistent.

Scult Spell only works on evocation spells. Great for blasting, useless for mosts forms of control. And blasting is something god wizards don't do.

[Dark.Revenant]

Scult Spell only works on evocation spells. Great for blasting, useless for mosts forms of control. And blasting is something god wizards don't do.

A god wizard does whatever will secure the encounter most efficiently. Sometimes, that means dumping a fireball onto a group of blinded, restrained enemies whilst doing no damage to any of your allies currently whacking those enemies nearby. You can easily sail right into triple-digits DPR with spell placement like that. Good blasts don't require concentration, either.

[Eldariel]

The masterful play that avoids damage by the omniscient God that controls reality?

I'm not on that level, so the campain would have to be really easy, to the point where my sub was irrelevant, for me to replicate this preformance.

Wizard is extremely good at not ever being in position to take damage in the first place. This has always been true but now with Minor Illusion at will, it's arguably easier than ever. It takes until Truesight for you to really worry about anything but AOE and long range enemy caster abilities.

[JackPhoenix]

A god wizard does whatever will secure the encounter most efficiently. Sometimes, that means dumping a fireball onto a group of blinded, restrained enemies whilst doing no damage to any of your allies currently whacking those enemies nearby. You can easily sail right into triple-digits DPR with spell placement like that. Good blasts don't require concentration, either.

The whole point of being a god wizard is that you leave murdering stuff to others. The situation you describe is a waste of spell slots, anyway.

[Bobthewizard]

War wizard is fine but I find it boring, so I'd vote for divination. Portent is great at making single save or suck spells viable. Avoid spells with repeat saves and stick to those that only allow one save.

Levitate, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, fear, polymorph, and banishment are all amazing with portent. At higher levels, I can see modify memory, dominate monster, magic jar, and feeblemind all work well too but I haven't gotten that far yet. In HOTDQ, my 3rd-4th level diviner took out two of the half dragons just using levitate and low portent roles, then peppering them with firebolt for 10 minutes.

At high levels, it falls behind some of the other classes due to not overcoming legendary resistance. But until then it's a lot of fun. Expert divination and third eye are not that great, but you don't even need to take any divination spells, just add a few save or suck spells to your normal wizard list.

[Nhorianscum]

Wizard is extremely good at not ever being in position to take damage in the first place. This has always been true but now with Minor Illusion at will, it's arguably easier than ever. It takes until Truesight for you to really worry about anything but AOE and long range enemy caster abilities.

I really should have used blue text.

Anywho, "Getting hit in the face" is a 0 action cost ability that pulls from a non-spell short and long rest resource. It's not a vital ability in easier campains but it is always very useful. I like to think of it as an action economy boon on BC casters.

[Yunru]

Serious reply: Great you plucked the 7.5% 20 on the exact day a rouge needed a 20... so you fizzled on that use 92.5% of the time. Stellar.

Uhh... Why are you limiting it to a 20?
Hell even a 14 is a good chance and making a saving throw, attack roll, or ability check.
So you've got 1-7 for forcing a fail, 10+ for the situational death saving throw, and 14-20 for forcing a success.
Discounting the middle, that's still useful on 70% of rolls.

[Nhorianscum]

Uhh... Why are you limiting it to a 20?
Hell even a 14 is a good chance and making a saving throw, attack roll, or ability check.
So you've got 1-7 for forcing a fail, 10+ for the situational death saving throw, and 14-20 for forcing a success.
Discounting the middle, that's still useful on 70% of rolls.

Because the quoted post specifically stated the rouge needed a 20.

[Yunru]

Because the quoted post specifically stated the rouge needed a 20.

That'll teach me to skim.