Brainstorming: class-neutral optimization (no UMD) [3.5]

[Zaq]

This is unfocused right now, but it might be easier to start first and organize later than the reverse.

A couple ground rules:

No using UMD (or UPD).
No using custom items.
No using loops or WBL breakers.
No races that aren't ECL 0.

With those ground rules in place, what are some general-purpose optimization tactics that can be used independent of class? Feat combos, item crutches that work out of the gate and offer good bang for the buck, things like that. I guess we can talk about races a little bit, but the general idea is to have some very generic plug-and-play tricks that can be easily handed to a character who's otherwise lagging a bit or generally not having a lot to do. (I originally called this topic "tricks that work on a commoner," but I don't want to get bogged down in commoner class skills and the jokey commoner flaws and stuff, so let's keep it truly class-neutral.)

I originally started thinking about this in the context of "non-truenamer-specific tricks that can help truenamers through boring patches in their level progression," but I realized that it can be and should be broader than that. Truenamers aren't the only ones who occasionally go through a dry spell while waiting for a trick to come online, after all. These tricks might end up giving dedicated skillmonkeys some combat oomph or giving stamina-challenged casters (*koffkoffshadowcasterkoff*) something to do on non-casting turns or giving "I hit it again, god I'm bored" fighter-types a tiny bit of variety in their turns.

I anticipate needing a lot of help on this, especially on the item side. I haven't done much with item op in basically forever.

These don't have to be character-defining or game-changing... just not totally stupid.

A few brainstorms to get us started, in no particular order:


Taking Hidden Talent (XPH) for psionic minor creation and investing skill ranks in Craft: Poisonmaking can net you a minimum of two meaningful doses of poison per day (possibly more with a permissive GM), which can make a crossbow or another weapon much more noticeable.
Martial Study (ToB) for a Devoted Spirit maneuver can get Intimidate as a permanent class skill if you don't have it already. Imperious Command (DotU) lets you cost an enemy a turn when you demoralize it with Intimidate, and Never Outnumbered (CSc) turns that from a wash on action economy to a win on action economy 1/enc. Intimidate can also be stacked with other sources of fear (like Dreadful Wrath, PGtF) to get someone from shaken to frightened, which can take them out of the fight.
Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118x) gives you a scaling pet that can be used in much the same way as a druid's animal companion.


This is just a bare start, but the idea should be clear. Again, I'm cool with using magic items as long as we're not breaking WBL, we're not just lunging straight for UMD, and we're not using anything that isn't explicitly printed in an existing book. I look forward to your help brainstorming!

[Zombulian]

Hidden Talent is obviously wildly versatile so it may be brought up a lot but anyway...
Hidden Talent (Call Item) can get you a piece of non-magical equipment of up to 10gp in value twice per day. If you’re a Psionic race with bonus power points and Practiced Manifester this can go up to 100gp in value at level 3 or 1000gp in value at level 5.

[ShurikVch]

For a living character: Shape Soulmeld, Open ... Chakra feat line, and Bonus Essentia (all are from Magic of Incarnum)

[Anthrowhale]

I've found a Sparrow Hengeyokai to be pretty fun in low level play. At L1, you have flight and a hide bonus of 22+ranks when in sparrow form. There are some significant limitations (no arms in sparrow form, only 2 form changes / day) but overall it's a top-end LA+0 race.

All of the X to Y feats are quite relevant here.

Diplomacy, even without optimization, is potentially very effective.

Iajutsu Focus is a near freebie to inflict some situational damage.

Several of the skill tricks are handy.

[ShurikVch]

Speaking of skills - Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) and Lucid Dreaming

[AvatarVecna]

A character with no ranks and Cha 10 has a 25% chance to get 1d6, 25% chance to get 2d6, and 5% chance to get 3d6 bonus damage via Iaijutsu Focus, because it's not a trained only skill. Not super-useful in-combat, but if you're attacking an object to try and break through, that's essentially free bonus damage.

Knowledge Devotion and 1 rank in each of the six monster knowledge skills means that every single fight, against every single monster, you're probably getting a tiny bit of info and definitely getting +1 attack/damage (possibly +2). That's definitely better than Weapon Focus, and is potentially better better than Weapon Focus+Weapon Specialization, even for this theoretical "1 rank wonder" character. If knowledge skills are focused enough to get +5, that's a single feat and some skills you might've been taking anyway that ends up arguably better than Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery (which ends up at +4 Attack/+6 damage).

A person with no ranks/cha bonus still has a not-insignificant chance of improving somebody's attitude one step with Diplomacy, and a touch of optimization for it means multiple steps can be pretty easy to pull off reliably.

[Eldariel]

- Well, the well-documented feat chain to produce 9th level spell slots and spells known via feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24008223&postcount=79) of course works.

- Hidden Talent > Solicit Psicrystal is pretty solid. Hidden Talent can get, iono, Synchronity, and Psi Crystal can get anything in here all over again.

- Power Attack > Shock Trooper + Leap Attack. The usual charger shell works even on a commoner, albeit at half the power (of course, if we had UMD we could just Divine Power and play a full BAB charger). Headlong Rush if an Orc. Hell, Sphinx Claws soulmeld from Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra can give you light weapon (including Unarmed) Pounce this way making almost anything a solid pouncer.

- Combat Expertise > Improved Trip. Even better, this doesn't even care about BAB, only your Str. You can add the usual AoO tripper shell onto anything that can attack. Even reach increases like Deformity (Tall) and Inhuman Limbs work here.

- Ancestral Relic/Item Familiar/Mercantile Background/etc. - anyone can go into moneymaking or item efficiencifying business. WBL breaking? Well, let the reader decide; you could kinda do that too but it's not necessary.

- Like all the other "dip this system"-feats, Bind Vestige and Improved Binding have a lot of uses of course. They aren't that powerful by and large but something to keep in mind.

[RaiKirah]

Dragontouched + Draconic feats can be added to any chassis. With Wild Cohort and Draconic Aura you can make any character into an AoE support character

Edit: Similarly the Willing Deformity and Abberant Blood feat chains can be added to any chassis for various effects

[Zombulian]

@Eldarial Hidden Talent only works on Level 1 powers and Solicit Psicrystal is 3rd level.

[Zaq]

Hidden Talent is obviously wildly versatile so it may be brought up a lot but anyway...
Hidden Talent (Call Item) can get you a piece of non-magical equipment of up to 10gp in value twice per day. If you’re a Psionic race with bonus power points and Practiced Manifester this can go up to 100gp in value at level 3 or 1000gp in value at level 5.

Does Practiced Manifester work on Hidden Talent, though? It's pretty clear that it explicitly says "this is not a manifester level," so I don't think that tricks that boost ML work on it. Interesting if you've got another argument, though.


I've found a Sparrow Hengeyokai to be pretty fun in low level play. At L1, you have flight and a hide bonus of 22+ranks when in sparrow form. There are some significant limitations (no arms in sparrow form, only 2 form changes / day) but overall it's a top-end LA+0 race.

All of the X to Y feats are quite relevant here.

Diplomacy, even without optimization, is potentially very effective.

Iajutsu Focus is a near freebie to inflict some situational damage.

Several of the skill tricks are handy.

Any X to Y feats in particular that you're referring to?


Speaking of skills - Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) and Lucid Dreaming

What about Autohypnosis and Lucid Dreaming? How are they class-neutral optimization?

[Zombulian]

Does Practiced Manifester work on Hidden Talent, though? It's pretty clear that it explicitly says "this is not a manifester level," so I don't think that tricks that boost ML work on it. Interesting if you've got another argument, though.

Ah shoot. I thought that up on shift and hadn’t looked very closely. Seems pretty clear that Practiced Manifester doesn’t work on Hidden Talent, especially since PM specifies “chosen manifesting class.” I think some other sorts of ML boosters may work though. Overchannel for instance, although the ML boosting is a bit slow for these purposes.

[tiercel]

What about Autohypnosis and Lucid Dreaming? How are they class-neutral optimization?

Well, one cross-class rank in Autohypnosis gives you an eidetic memory. That’s not terrible.

The Memorize function allows retries, so taking 20 is on the table if you have some poorly-defined amount of time in which to take 20, and taking 10 (to hit DC 15) requires 1 rank, a +2 circumstance item, and EITHER Wis 14+ OR 5 ranks in Concentration OR a skill-boosting feat.

And as a side benefit, even a modest investment of this sort unlocks a better chance of stabilizing at negative hp, even a modest second save vs fear, and a chance of acting normally at 0 hp.

Yeah, it’s not world-beating, but it’s not shabby return on investment.

———

Most all the Fey Heritage line of feats are pretty alright; on most builds they get overlooked for something build-specific, but they probably qualify for a build-agnostic query like this (even if they do play better for a character with high Cha).

[AvatarVecna]

What about Autohypnosis and Lucid Dreaming? How are they class-neutral optimization?

The more circumstantial ways of using Autohypnosis, the more it becomes worth investing in instead of the half-dozen or whatever things you could invest in instead that do the job better.

If you're successfully poisoned, you can make an Autohypnosis check against DC (poison DC +5) to not have to deal with secondary damage at all. If that check fails, then later when you actually take secondary damage, you can choose to substitute an Autohypnosis check in place of your saving throw against the Poison DC, at its normal DC (which is good because skills are easier to boost than saves, and skill checks don't auto-fail on a nat 1). It's possible the first is a 3.0 epic use that was made a standard use in 3.5 psionics, though, so you'd wanna make sure they can work together; if you can benefit from both, then a good Autohypnosis bonus is a great defense against secondary poison damage, but it's probably easier to boost your Fort save, or probably even just get poison immunity.

Having even a single rank in Autohypnosis gives you a fear-specific check-based version of Slippery Mind: if you fail a save against a fear effect, the next round you can make an Autohypnosis check to resist it anyway. This isn't of great value if you just put a single rank in, and too much investment becomes more expensive than simple fear immunity.

If you're at 0 HP (extremely circumstantial), you can make a DC 20 check to act without sending yourself into negatives. If you're below 0 HP, you can make a DC 20 check instead of the usual d100 roll to stabilize; as long as you have a +3 bonus, you have better odds of stabilizing.

Honestly, the above uses aren't really enough to make the skill worth investing in IMO. There's some ways it makes you potentially tougher, but there's better ways of boosting the same defenses, and even altogether, they just don't amount to much. No, there's only one Autohypnosis use worth building for:


DC 30: If reduced to negative hit points but not dead, make a Autohypnosis check. If successful, the character does not go unconscious and can continue taking actions until he or she bleeds to death or stabilizes (the character can also continue making stabilization checks). If healed or stabilized, the character continues to take actions normally.

So...most things that let you continue acting below 0 HP either specify "between -1 HP and -9 HP", or you're limited to a single action per turn - standard or move, not both. Epic Autohypnosis does not specify either of those things: it says "if reduced to negative HP but not dead" and "can continue taking actions" (draw your attention to the plural there - actions, not action). That means that a DC 30 Autohypnosis check combined with something that changes the "you die here" HP threshold to something more reasonable, and you effectively have extra HP. Of course, mechanics like that aren't super-common, and the ones that exist aren't very impressive for the most part.

...for the most part.


Delay Death (Cleric 3, Destiny 3)


The subject of this powerful spell is unable to die from hit point damage. While under the protection of this spell, the normal limit of -9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit. A condition or spell that destroys enough of the subject's body to prohibit raise dead (such as a disintegrate effect) still kills the creature, as does death brought about by ability score damage or drain, level drain, or a death effect. The spell does not prevent the subject from entering the dying state by dropping to -1 hit points. It merely prevents death as a result of hit point loss. If the subject has fewer than -9 hit points when the spell's duration expires, he or she dies instantly.

Lucid Dreaming investment lets you pull a grappled target into the Dreamheart (which is the part of the Region Of Dreams where "if you die in your dreams, you die in real life" and is also "there's a constant storm of energy going on so you take 25 DPR unless sheltered). Escaping the Dreamheart requires either a DC 20 Lucid Dreaming check (which is trained only), or a DC 18 Wisdom check (which will generally take 3-6 rounds for somebody with Wis 10). If you can damage their chances of making the Wis checks before you drop them off in "Wonderland, except it's currently experiencing an apocalypse", then that could be a pretty brutal method of murdering somebody as long as they don't have ER 5+ against all elements. Of course, if they do, or if you can't grapple them in the first place, this isn't too valuable, and most high-level games make "small amounts of energy damage" and "grappling" a waste of time anyway.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Two nice tricks that require only skills and feats:

(optionally, Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus) feat)
Iaijutsu Focus skill
Quick Draw feat
Combat Reflexes feat
Mercurial Strike feat
Robilar's Gambit feat

As long as you've got enough weapons to drop one after each use, this gives you a free attack with free bonus damage any time someone attacks you (or otherwise provokes an opportunity attack). This was one of the pillars of my recent Junkyard Wars build, Azoth (http://bit.ly/2kfZ3rs).


(optionally, Skill Knowledge (Lucid Dreaming) feat)
Lucid Dreaming skill
Dream Scion feat

Arguably, this gives you some swanky standard action battlefield control for several rounds, a couple of times per day, by letting you use Lucid Dreaming to affect the real world (because Dream Scion lets you dream while still in the Material Plane). Haven't had the chance to use this one yet, but I've got a build I'm sitting on, to unleash upon an unsuspecting Villainous Competition.


More generally, the incarnum feats already mentioned and Martial Study/Martial Stance are often great options for any build (though that's kind of cheating, as the specific version of the feat will depend highly on the specific build), as are generically/universally useful feats like Improved Initiative. Likewise, stealth skills (+ Darkstalker feat) and social skills can work on a whole lot of different classes without any real combat-optimization related opportunity cost.

[javcs]

For the truly Evil, there's always BoVD's sacrifice rules.
It requires ranks in Knowledge(Religion), and a willingness to ritually torture and kill people.
It works better if you have good Bluff and Diplomacy skills to talk people into being willing victims. And to talk your way out of trouble in the event somebody finds something suspicious.
Also, should you have good Diplomacy, the DCs for a lesser planar ally, planar ally, and greater planar ally, are not particularly difficult (25, 30, and 35, respectively).
A planar ally can be obtained as early as level 1, if you (a) have a decent base skill modifier, (b) utilize the sacrifice elements to get a bonus, and (b) don't mind killing however many people(or acceptable monsters) are necessary.


However, this is clearly not something suitable for every game.
And will likely have serious repercussions for those characters utilizing it if they don't keep it secret in most even remotely civilized areas.

[Anthrowhale]

Any X to Y feats in particular that you're referring to?

The potentially generically useful ones seem to be:

Str: Brutal Throw
Dex: Dead Eye, Shadow Blade
Con: Steadfast Determination
Int: Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Initiate
Wis: Intuitive Attack, Zen Archery
Cha: Force of Personality

There are a few others which might be useful on certain specific builds.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Hidden Talent for Call Weaponry, then use it to call splash weapons.

[Zombulian]

Hidden Talent for Call Weaponry, then use it to call splash weapons.

Or Colossal++ crossbow bolts and then cast Launch Bolt on them.

[daremetoidareyo]

Heres some excerpts from my optimization checklist:

Class

Look at weird abilities: SU? spl? what happens if you play with the feats to empower, extend, or widen them?

Look at skill list: Do epic skill checks do something funny with those abilities of the class?

Check out the dead levels

Check out the ACFS

What happens if you take precocious apprentice?

skills
Did you ctrl F on every single pdf copy you have of your skill, paste them into a sheet, organize them, change the wordings a bit and put them up on the board in your quest to understand every single thing that you can possibly do with that skill by RAW and then unleash your exhibit for critical acclaim?

Feats
Look at unique to the class feats, do they make it do something weird?

What if you're a spellfire wielder?

Did you check the spelltouched feats to see if they help?

Did you check out the ancestor feats in dragmag 318?

Did you consider taking a (planar) touchstone? even to get a domain ability?

Did you consider what soulmelds you want?

Can you bind something useful with that feat?

Did you find an utterance that you can use via feats?

Did you think a martial study might help?

Did you look at all of the level 1 powers for your hidden talent?

Did you consider a draconic aura?

Did you consider being a ghost? Check out those sweet ghostwalk feats


Race
Did you consider being a ghost?

Did you check out the LA0 list on google?

Did you consider how your previous choices are affected by movement type

Did you consider being a changeling with racial emulation? You should have. Did you also consider the psion expanded ACFS to be a double changeling? You should.

Are you a hairy spider?

Did you consider tibbit?

Did you consider sparrow hengeyokai?

How about those lesser drow slas to get a caster level?

Did you look at those illumian power words?

Did you want to tack on dragonborn or spellscale later?

gear

exotic weapons: shuriken, net, sandblaster,

The throw anything feat (can you abuse it effectively)

If it's exotic anyway, what happens if it is made of gold?

Do you get armor pros? Can you subvert that somehow?

[Thurbane]

The various rituals from Lords of Darkness power up a character independent of class:


Ritual of Terror’s Allegiance: Bonus on will save which is more effective against fear, for 1000gp and some XP
The Rite of Dread Presence: Fear 1/day, for some XP
The Ritual of Black Charms: Charm Person and Suggestion 1/day each, for 500gp and some XP
The Ritual of Honest Pain: +2 on some Cha based skills and undetectable lies, for 2 Con
The Ritual of Shadow Walking: A limited version of Shadow Walk/Dimension Door that causes Con and HP damage, for 500gp and some XP
The Ritual of the Dark Flames: Eldritch blast-like ability that causes 2 Wis damage each time you use it, for 100gp and some XP
The Ritual of the Shadowmantle: A one minute/day power that gives a bonus to Intimidate and AC, darkvision and a bonus on saves against certain effects, for 2000gp and some XP

Defeat an Aleax (BoED) and gain +2 untyped bonus to Wis, +1 insight bonus to initiative, +2 perfection bonus to Ac, and SR equal to its HD (not great).

Has anyone mentioned worshipping an Elder Evil for bonus Vile feasts?

[Zombulian]

Has anyone mentioned worshipping an Elder Evil for bonus Vile feats?

Ah no one has but we should have! That’s really one of the only ways I feel it’s worth splurging on them. Bonus points if you’re gonna go all out and take the ones that give you bonuses for having a lot of them.

My current favorite is Master’s Will just because I have Beleaguered Spellcaster on the mind, but there are probably other ways to cash in on taking damage right?

[RaiKirah]

Has anyone mentioned worshipping an Elder Evil for bonus Vile feasts?


Ah no one has but we should have! That’s really one of the only ways I feel it’s worth splurging on them. Bonus points if you’re gonna go all out and take the ones that give you bonuses for having a lot of them.

My current favorite is Master’s Will just because I have Beleaguered Spellcaster on the mind, but there are probably other ways to cash in on taking damage right?


While on this topic, one can make a Faustian Pact (Fiendish Codex 2 I believe) for free feats of any type, or gold, xp, or an extra spell slot of any level

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn of Bahamut for a breath attack, and the feat Entangling Exhalation will give any character a spammable damage+debuff from 1st level.

Most items can be readied as a weaponlike object and drawn as a weapon (as part of movement, or with quick draw). If you put marbles (A&EG) in a folded cloth and ready it as a weaponlike object you can (quick) draw it, then drop it in an adjacent square as a free action. The presence of the marbles in a creature's square will cause it to be balancing, per the balance skill, which causes it to be rendered flat-footed if it doesn't have at least 5 ranks in Balance. That also prevents it from taking immediate actions and making attacks of opportunity (unless it has Combat Reflexes). So as part of your movement to leave a threatened square, you can draw and drop the marbles to prevent the opponent from making an AoO for your movement.

Always make your bow Elvencraft from Races of the Wild. An elvencraft shortbow can also be used as a club, an elvencraft longbow can be used as a quarterstaff. Each weapon portion needs to be made masterwork separately, but each portion can also be enchanted separately. You should also be able to put multiple wand chambers in it, one for each weapon portion. You can enchant each portion separately, so make all three +1 Defending and get a party spellcaster to Greater Magic Weapon each one, Defending stacks with all other bonuses including other Defending bonuses. Get Eager on one of those, Warning on another, etc. You can even make it an item familiar or ancestral relic, an elvencraft longbow can be upgraded as a magical staff with charges or a runestaff in addition to being a weapon, or an elvencraft shortbow could likely be upgraded as a magic rod since many rods also function as a light or heavy mace. You can do the same GMW Defending/Warning/Eager trick with (spiked) gauntlets.

Wear a mundane bone pendant around your neck. Apply Unguent of Timelessness to it so its passage of time is 1 day for every year of actual time. Hire an NPC spellcaster to put Extended Deeper Darkness on that, which should last 2 years per caster level. Preferably also get that Heightened so a standard Daylight is a lower spell level and can't overcome it. When that's hanging normally it projects the darkness effect, but if you tuck it into your shirt it's blocked. You can also hold it in your mouth to block the effect, but then 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, it falls back into place and instantly plunges the area into darkness.

[Troacctid]

In my Warlockopedia, I made a point of not limiting the feats and magic items to just the ones that are specifically good for warlocks. If you go to the itemization spreadsheet, you can actually filter out the warlock-specific items to get a massive list of useful class-neutral gear, sorted by price.


- Well, the well-documented feat chain to produce 9th level spell slots and spells known via feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24008223&postcount=79) of course works.
It doesn't, actually, but whatever.