Making fighters a legitimate class with ACF?

[Voidstar01]

So fighters don't get class features, but they can trade feats for ACF, how would you go about building a proper class out of these ACF?

[ShurikVch]

Well, firstly, Fighter would be already decent with Dungeon Crasher or/and Zhentarim Soldier ACF

Then, there was Dragon #310, in which were published variants of Core non-casters and half-casters. For a Fighter, major part of those variants is "take special ability instead of bonus feat".

Finally, are you familiar with UA Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) and its Bonus Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats) selection?

[Silvercrys]

Well, mostly by not giving up the bonus feats.

Hit-and-Run Tactics from Drow of the Underdark trades armor proficiencies for Dex to damage against opponents when they're denied Dex bonus to AC.

Zhentarim Fighter replaces Fighter 5 and 9 with actual class features, albeit for specific builds (intimidate).

As far as giving up bonus feats, the Specialist Fighters in Dragon Magazine #310 can give up bonus feats for some pretty good class features for certain builds, and Dungeoncrasher is good if you can get a high strength bonus and can push people into walls regularly.

Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Fighter is probably the closest to a "real class", but that's basically only from level 1-10. I can't even think of any ACFs that apply past that, so I think that's the best we can do. Hit-and-Run Tactics with Sneak Attack Fighter from UA is okay for a few levels as well (probably falls off around level 5 when the Rogue starts burying you in class features and all you have is full BAB and a d10 HD).

[EndlessKng]

Well, mostly by not giving up the bonus feats.

Hit-and-Run Tactics from Drow of the Underdark trades armor proficiencies for Dex to damage against opponents when they're denied Dex bonus to AC.

Zhentarim Fighter replaces Fighter 5 and 9 with actual class features, albeit for specific builds (intimidate).

As far as giving up bonus feats, the Specialist Fighters in Dragon Magazine #310 can give up bonus feats for some pretty good class features for certain builds, and Dungeoncrasher is good if you can get a high strength bonus and can push people into walls regularly.

Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Fighter is probably the closest to a "real class", but that's basically only from level 1-10. I can't even think of any ACFs that apply past that, so I think that's the best we can do. Hit-and-Run Tactics with Sneak Attack Fighter from UA is okay for a few levels as well (probably falls off around level 5 when the Rogue starts burying you in class features and all you have is full BAB and a d10 HD).

Don't forget that ZhenFight also gets Skill Focus (Intimidate) at 3rd level too, reducing the number of dead levels between first and 10th level to 1 (7th).

[ShurikVch]

Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Fighter is probably the closest to a "real class", but that's basically only from level 1-10. I can't even think of any ACFs that apply past thatPlayers Handbook II: Counterattack, Elusive Attack, and Overpowering Attack - at 12th, 6th/11th/16th, and 16th levels respectively; replacing bonus feats at 12th, 6th, and 16th levels.

EDIT:
And speaking of Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a)... :smallwink:

[ViperMagnum357]

Fighter dead level bonuses are weaksauce, with Applied Force being the best and yet only marginally useful. Zhent-Dungeoncrasher with a DMG 310 alternate is definitely the way to go, if straight Fighter is going to be a thing.

I prefer the Kensai variant-you trade away your first level bonus feat and all proficiencies besides light armor, simple weapons, and 1 martial/exotic weapon; which translates to taking EWP at first and specializing in it. You get an untyped, scaling bonus to attack and damage rolls with your weapon: +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5, and +1 per 5 levels thereafter, giving you an actual, scaling class feature. You also get access to 2 special abilities you can take in place of feats, letting you take more attacks during a full action for moderate attack penalties. Definitely my favorite Fighter build, especially in a gestalt martial.

[Aotrs Commander]

I just straight gave them a bonus feats (as opposed to a bonus combat feat) in every dead level, and added one or two little extra bonuses to a few feats which were Better If You Had Levels Of Fighter - Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes gave you a Good save progression instead of just +2, for example (no, Warblade, you only qualify for fighter levels for prerequistes, these aren't prerequisites, go away!) and called it a day*. That works for my group's paradigm, at least.

(I have never been very struck with any of the Fighter ACF (except the one which gave you casting in light armour, but until I tweked it, that was a bit weak); even the much-lauded Dungeon Crasher seems like it is HIGHLY specific usage.)



*Unitl literally yesterday, when I gave them a capstone which was basically "two extra combat feats that you load at the start of the day and an ability to swap some feats around for a combat."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use a race that's large size or has powerful build, such as a Goliath, a Half-Ogre, or a Half-Minotaur Water Orc or Earth Dwarf. Buy off the level adjustment as soon as possible.

Go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, use Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier, and the Dead Levels class features. Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and Imperious Command. Your Fighter 10 bonus feat at 20th level can be Weapon Supremacy in PH2. So you get something at every level, with Fighter 7 being the weakest:

1. Fighter 1, bonus feat
2. Fighter 2, Dungeoncrasher
3. Zhentarim Fighter 3, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Physical Prowess +1
4. Fighter 4, bonus feat
5. Zhentarim Fighter 5, Extended Intimidation, Physical Prowess +2
6. Fighter 6, Dungeoncrasher
7. Fighter 7, Physical Prowess +3
8. Fighter 8, bonus feat
9. Zhentarim Fighter 9, Swift Demoralization, Physical Prowess+4
10-19 Warblade
20. Fighter 10, Weapon Supremacy

Unfortunately, Fighter 11-20 has nothing but five bonus feats to offer, considering Warblade levels will get you qualified for Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization and Weapon Supremacy. What Fighter needs is class features that scale with level, and remain useful at the higher levels, that don't do things that you can gain from magic items.

The problem is that you'll have a Gish turning into a War Troll with Draconic Polymorph and casting Bite of the Werebear for Str 55, or a Druid who Wild Shapes into a Dire (Polar) Bear with Enhance Wild Shape and Bite of the Werebear for Str 49 or 57, so the Fighter being up 4-5 points of BAB on those characters doesn't really mean anything. The Gish will still get a +16 BAB at 20th, and the Druid gets three natural attacks and probably has Multiattack so he'll make more attacks that actually hit each turn (plus his animal companion's attacks). A Fighter can only keep up if other characters in the party choose to hold back.