Multiweapon fighting vs. TWF?

[Voidstar01]

Right so I'm in a epic level space game, we have lightsabers, I'm rolling up a Gish-y Thri-keen, who became a living construct through renegade master maker. Obviously I want to wield 4 lightsabers *coughs in separatist general* but I'm a little unclear on how multiweapon weapon fighting works compared to two weapon fighting, for example the multiweapon fighting feat says you only get -2 off your mainhand penalties compared tp the -6 from TWF, does this mean multi weapon fighting has worse accuracy? and it say "Multiweapon fighting replaces Twoweapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms" Does this mean it counts as TWF for prerequisites? or am I forever locked out of the TWF skill tree?

[Elkad]

It's exactly the same.

TWF or MWF reduces mainhand penalty by 2, offhand(s) by 6.

Then you get another 2pt penalty reduction (all hands) if all offhand weapons are light.

If lightsabers work like sunswords (reasonable), it's probably 4 light weapons. So -2 across the board.

[ViperMagnum357]

MWF replaces TWF for anyone with 3+ arms, and the feat chain is a little different.

TWF is TWF, then Improved TWF and Greater TWF all in the PHB, and Perfect TWF in the Epic Level Handbook (ELH).

MWF is MWF from the Monster Manual 1, then Improved MWF, Greater MWF, and Perfect MWF in the ELH.

They are both 4 feat chains with identical abilities for 2 or 3+ arms, but you only ever get 1 primary hand. There are a whole bunch of printings for MWF including crap like Multidexterity, the 3+ arm version of the old 3.0 Ambidexterity that got rolled into basic TWF. So 3.0 books have a bunch of wonky feat lists because early on WOTC decided that no PC should ever get to wield a character with more than 2 arms, hence the MWF feat line not being in the PHB. A thought process they eventually relented on, when they ported the Thri-Kreen.

Just stick with the feat tree in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As others have said, Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting) (and the Improved (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiweaponFighting) and Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting) versions) work exactly the same way as TWF and the Improved and Greater versions, except TWF only works with two hands/weapons, whereas Multiweapon Fighting works with any number of hands/weapons.

See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack from the Combat chapter of the PHB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) for clarification:
Normal penalties: -6 main hand, -10 off hand
Off-hand is light: -4 main hand, -8 off hand (penalties reduced by 2)
TWF or MWF feat (off hand isn't light): -4 main hand, -4 off hand (replaces normal penalties)
TWF or MWF and all offhand weapons are light: -2 main hand, -2 off hand (penalties reduced by 2)


So the feat's benefit is as follows: "Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands." This changes the -6/-10 to a -4/-4 just like TWF does. The two-weapon fighting special attack in the Combat chapter has it built-in that if your off-hand weapon(s) are light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each, for -2/-2 total, just like TWF.

[pabelfly]

The prereqs for the Multiweapon Fighting feats are slightly different too. Most notably:
- you'll need to get the Multidexterity feat for the MWF line too, so the chain requires another feat that TWF doesn't
- You need higher BAB to get Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting compared to their TWF counterparts (9 BAB and 15 BAB, compared to 6 and 11).
- Multiweapon fighting feats aren't marked as fighter bonus feats while Two-Weapon Fighting feats are. Not that it's a good idea to be a martial without any sort of spellcasting/psionics/maneuvers etc at epic but it's noted more for lower-level builds that might use Fighter

[ViperMagnum357]

The prereqs for the Multiweapon Fighting feats are slightly different too. Most notably:
- you'll need to get the Multidexterity feat for the MWF line too, so the chain requires another feat that TWF doesn't


Multidexterity no longer exists, as it was removed along with Ambidexterity in the 3.5 MM 1. It is still listed in the 3.0 materials, but only an utter troll of a DM would make you take a 1 feat tax of something that no longer exists because its effects were rolled into the updated MWF feat in the 3.5 MM 1. I would also call out a DM that forces you to take the Ambidexterity feat in 3.5 because it was listed as a prereq somewhere.

[pabelfly]

Multidexterity no longer exists, as it was removed along with Ambidexterity in the 3.5 MM 1. It is still listed in the 3.0 materials, but only an utter troll of a DM would make you take a 1 feat tax of something that no longer exists because its effects were rolled into the updated MWF feat in the 3.5 MM 1. I would also call out a DM that forces you to take the Ambidexterity feat in 3.5 because it was listed as a prereq somewhere.

Well, that's a rather nice tidbit I wasn't aware of. Thank you.

[RedWarlock]

The prereqs for the Multiweapon Fighting feats are slightly different too. Most notably:
- you'll need to get the Multidexterity feat for the MWF line too, so the chain requires another feat that TWF doesn't

This is inaccurate. MWF is in the 3.5 MM, doesn’t need multidexterity.

[Voidstar01]

So a few additional questions so I don't have to open a new thread:

1. How many attacks do I have with perfect multiweapon fighting as a thri-keen? is it 16 (4x4) at regular BAB or 16 at regular BAB, 3 at -5 BAB, 3 at -10 BAB, for a total of 22?

2. anyone know any good ride along effects I can slap on these via weapon enhancements? (all my feats are full)

[ViperMagnum357]

1. How many attacks do I have with perfect multiweapon fighting as a thri-keen? is it 16 (4x4) at regular BAB or 16 at regular BAB, 3 at -5 BAB, 3 at -10 BAB, for a total of 22?

2. anyone know any good ride along effects I can slap on these via weapon enhancements? (all my feats are full)

1: 4 at full BAB, 4 at BAB -5, 4 at BAB -10, and 4 at BAB -15.

2: Look for flat investments. Any weapon enhancement calculated by bonus gets astronomically expensive in a hurry with TWF/MWF. IE, the Kukri of Crippling from A&EG is a +2 Kukri with a market price of 18,308 GP and when it deals a critical hit, it halves the a randomly chosen movement mode of the target for 24 hours or until they receive magical healing or a DC 15 Heal check. 18,308 GP -308 GP for a masterwork Kukri - a +2 weapon bonus equaling 8,000 GP = 10,000 GP market price for the crippling effect, making it affordable once you get into the teens.

Overall, I would recommend just focusing on the base enhancement bonus for each weapon plus a few specific riders to keep your enormous costs down. The flat bonus to hit makes better use of those iterative attacks, and the damage bonus gets applies to every opponent and gets multiplied on crits; all those fancy damage enchantments tend to be 'go big or go home', which will be the latter when you are splitting your wealth across 4 weapons.

A&EG has a nice selection of specific weapon effects to pick from, and take a look at the weapon crystals in the Magic Item Compendium as well.

[HouseRules]

When using natural attacks such as unarmed strike or a weapon that acts as improved unarmed strike (such as claws), characters may only use a limb once when using natural attacks.
When using manufactured weapons, they may make iterative attacks for as many iterative as there are, to a maximum of 4, by the number of feats.
Claw type weapon could count both ways, and the penalties are different in the way the attacks are made.
-----
Two-weapon fighting and Multi-weapon fighting allows for manufactured weapons to hit as secondary attacks on the first iterative attack with less penalties.
A character could always make secondary attacks on the first iterative attack, just with large penalties on their primary (-6, -4 light) and secondary (-10, -8 light) attacks.
With natural weapons, secondary attack always made at -5 penalty, and they only work as secondary attacks on the first iterative attack.
-----
Improvised allows for manufactured weapons to hit as secondary attacks on first iterative attacks.
Improved Version allows for manufactured weapons to hit as secondary attacks on the second iterative attack.
Greater Version allows for manufactured weapons to hit as secondary attacks on the third iterative attack.
Perfect Version allows for manufactured weapons to hit as secondary attacks on the fourth iterative attack.
-----

First Iterative
Natural: +0/-5. Second value applies to all secondary attacks (in this case, all natural attacks after either a primary natural attack or manufactured weapon).
No Feat: -4/-8 light or -6/-10 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.
Basic Feat: -2/-2 light or -4/-4 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.

Second Iterative
House Rules: No Improved Feat: -9/-13 light or -11/-15 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.
Improved Feat -7/-7 light or -9/-9 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.

Third Iterative
House Rules: No Greater Feat: -13/-17 light or -15/-19 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.
Greater Feat: -11/-11 light or -13/-13 one handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.

Fourth Iterative
House Rules: No Perfect Feat: -19/-23 light or -21/-25 one-handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.
Perfect Feat: -17/-17 light or -19/-19 one handed in offhand. Second value applies to all secondary attacks.
-----
Shield Bash could be used as secondary attacks, but the enhancement bonus does not count towards damage or attack bonus.

[grarrrg]

In case any PATHFINDERs show up:

There is no Improved/Greater Multiweapon in Pathfinder. You either get the full TWF line of feats, or the single Multiweapon feat.

If you are OK with forum-post rulings (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri6o?Kasathas-and-Improved-TwoWeapon-Fighting#4), then you can add ITWF and GTWF on top of Multiweapon for +1 attack each (NOT +arms attacks each).

[Voidstar01]

In case any PATHFINDERs show up:

There is no Improved/Greater Multiweapon in Pathfinder. You either get the full TWF line of feats, or the single Multiweapon feat.

If you are OK with forum-post rulings (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri6o?Kasathas-and-Improved-TwoWeapon-Fighting#4), then you can add ITWF and GTWF on top of Multiweapon for +1 attack each (NOT +arms attacks each).

"In addition to the single extra attack a creature gets with each extra weapon from Multiweapon Fighting, it gets a second attack with each extra weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty. " (emphasis mine)

You're free to houserule as you wish, but that's absolutely not what the feat does by RAW, and i'm not about to blow the lid off game balance. I'm a poorly optimized gish in a party where the other gish gets infinite fullattacks of opportunity, the enemies provoke when they fail to hit her, and she's completely immune to ranged attacks.

[grarrrg]

"In addition to the single extra attack a creature gets with each extra weapon from Multiweapon Fighting, it gets a second attack with each extra weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty. " (emphasis mine)

What exactly are you quoting?

In my post I'm talking about how PATHFINDER does not have IMPROVED Multiweapon fighting (nor an equivalent, as far as I know).

[Voidstar01]

My apologies i though your post was talking about are forum ruling for multiweapon fighting, a pathfinder ruling isn't particularly helpful, but still intresting to know.