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Talakeal
2019-09-29, 07:00 PM
I have noticed that several of my players are reluctant to spend any resources on improving their characters.

They hoard their gold rather than buying upgrades that are not absolute "best in slot", and sometimes they even go several levels without spending any feats or skill points, and as a result they are noticeably weaker than they are supposed to be.

Now, this wouldn't ordinarily be a problem, its their choice, but at the same time they often bitch at me for creating encounters that are "too hard for them" because they are balanced around characters with the normal allotment of items, skills, and feats for a character of their level, so it seems like they are creating their own problems and then taking it out on me.

Whenever I try and talk to them about it, they simply say that "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure," which kind of boggles my mind as points just sitting in a pool being unused are completely worthless.

Any advice on how to handle this?

denthor
2019-09-29, 07:13 PM
The feat choice is rules as written (RAW) is to be used as you play. Your not allowed to choose those or skill points at a later date. So section zero. 1 have use them before the game starts.

zinycor
2019-09-29, 07:16 PM
On gold and other in-game currencies, I don't care, they can horde it or spend it as much as they want.

On mechanical resouces, make it o they have to pick something, don't allow them to hoard those.

Zhorn
2019-09-29, 08:02 PM
For the gold one; make that hoarded treasure noticeable by NPCs and hostile forces. Walking about with a large amount of liquid wealth makes them prime targets for pick-pockets, opportunistic thieves, etc. And the visible burden of coins and gems will likely draw the attention of dragons while within their territory.
It doesn't force them to spend their treasure, but it should highlight that hoarding up wealth carries its own drawbacks.

Then there's the physical burden and encumbrance of treasure. I know a lot of people don't use encumbrance rules for convenience, but they have their place.
These numbers are a mix f the 5e rules for currency and the 3.5e measurements from the Draconomicon.
Currency Size
• 50 coins or gems = 1 pound
• 1 gem = 5 coins in size
• 1 cubic foot of gems (loosely stacked) = 2,400 (48 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins (loosely stacked) = 12,000 (240 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 3 feet wide by 1 inch high
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 5 feet wide by ½ inch high
• 1 ingot (or Trade Bar) is 50 coins in size and weight (1 pound)

Talakeal
2019-09-29, 08:53 PM
For the gold one; make that hoarded treasure noticeable by NPCs and hostile forces. Walking about with a large amount of liquid wealth makes them prime targets for pick-pockets, opportunistic thieves, etc. And the visible burden of coins and gems will likely draw the attention of dragons while within their territory.
It doesn't force them to spend their treasure, but it should highlight that hoarding up wealth carries its own drawbacks.

Then there's the physical burden and encumbrance of treasure. I know a lot of people don't use encumbrance rules for convenience, but they have their place.
These numbers are a mix f the 5e rules for currency and the 3.5e measurements from the Draconomicon.
Currency Size
• 50 coins or gems = 1 pound
• 1 gem = 5 coins in size
• 1 cubic foot of gems (loosely stacked) = 2,400 (48 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins (loosely stacked) = 12,000 (240 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 3 feet wide by 1 inch high
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 5 feet wide by ½ inch high
• 1 ingot (or Trade Bar) is 50 coins in size and weight (1 pound)

The campaign world is urban enough that most of their money is in banks, they don't carry a lot around with them.

And, rule one of DMing, robbing your players is just an invitation for them to riot.


The feat choice is rules as written (RAW) is to be used as you play. Your not allowed to choose those or skill points at a later date. So section zero. 1 have use them before the game starts.

I know what the RAW is. Basically what happens is that we level up at the end of the session when it is late and everyone is tired, and players keep saying "I'll do it next time," and then just never get back to me.

I don't really know how to force the issue without overstepping my bounds or pissing my players off.

zlefin
2019-09-29, 09:01 PM
I have noticed that several of my players are reluctant to spend any resources on improving their characters.

They hoard their gold rather than buying upgrades that are not absolute "best in slot", and sometimes they even go several levels without spending any feats or skill points, and as a result they are noticeably weaker than they are supposed to be.

Now, this wouldn't ordinarily be a problem, its their choice, but at the same time they often bitch at me for creating encounters that are "too hard for them" because they are balanced around characters with the normal allotment of items, skills, and feats for a character of their level, so it seems like they are creating their own problems and then taking it out on me.

Whenever I try and talk to them about it, they simply say that "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure," which kind of boggles my mind as points just sitting in a pool being unused are completely worthless.

Any advice on how to handle this?

you need to hoard more players. If you have a large hoard of players, you can easily throw away a few that make unreasonable demands.

zinycor
2019-09-29, 09:03 PM
you need to hoard more players. If you have a large hoard of players, you can easily throw away a few that make unreasonable demands.

That's such an amazing advice.

Zhorn
2019-09-29, 10:12 PM
The campaign world is urban enough that most of their money is in banks, they don't carry a lot around with them.
Fair enough. The assumption of a generic medieval fantasy setting comes from your mention of gold, but I suppose that's a good enough catchall that it needn't only be associated with non-modern settings.
I will say though when you make it convenient to hoard gold (ie; via banks) that there's less of an incentive to spend wealth when the drawback is negated.

And, rule one of DMing, robbing your players is just an invitation for them to riot.
Miscommunication: you don't rob the players uncontested, you throw more encounters at them with the enemy's motivation is to rob the players. But again, if they are not carrying around their wealth with them, this is a pointless suggestion.

zinycor
2019-09-29, 10:15 PM
Fair enough. The assumption of a generic medieval fantasy setting comes from your mention of gold, but I suppose that's a good enough catchall that it needn't only be associated with non-modern settings.
I will say though when you make it convenient to hoard gold (ie; via banks) that there's less of an incentive to spend wealth when the drawback is negated.

Miscommunication: you don't rob the players uncontested, you throw more encounters at them with the enemy's motivation is to rob the players. But again, if they are not carrying around their wealth with them, this is a pointless suggestion.

Well, if people are using banks, I would expect people to not use gold, so your confusion is very reasonable.

denthor
2019-09-29, 11:19 PM
The campaign world is urban enough that most of their money is in banks, they don't carry a lot around with them.

And, rule one of DMing, robbing your players is just an invitation for them to riot.



I know what the RAW is. Basically what happens is that we level up at the end of the session when it is late and everyone is tired, and players keep saying "I'll do it next time," and then just never get back to me.

I don't really know how to force the issue without overstepping my bounds or pissing my players off.


You are not overstepping your job is to control the flow of the game. Players have a hard time quitting games
Simply have session where they are training. New skills, feats cost money. You have to set up trainers with guilds churches or independent NPC's. They can recruit or pay organizations, they can pay by taking on the work of the organization to repay the debt(adventure hooks) or straight gold. Remember just like people organization have alignments of members reputations not all of them are forgiving of failure.

I once had a character that gave a 60,000 gp item to a Lawful Evil church in exchange for two months of training for the entire party. Those PC's kicked my character from the table(had me role a new one) the church finished the 1st month and all the trainers disappeared. They fulfilled 1/2 the contract when they got rid of me in the first week of of the contract. I yanked the training I paid the full contract it was my training to do as I pleased with.

Talakeal
2019-09-30, 12:17 AM
Well, if people are using banks, I would expect people to not use gold, so your confusion is very reasonable.

Why not?

Modern banking started in 14th century Italy, and gold coins were commonplace until the early 20th century; that's a pretty big span of history.

Zombimode
2019-09-30, 03:21 AM
Assuming 3.5 here, do you and your players know that many magic items can be upgraded gradually?

If you want to put the Flaming enchantment on your sword +1, you don't have to sell your old sword for 1000 gp, than buy a new +1 sword of flaming for 8000. Instead you upgrade your sword with the flaming enchantment paying the difference (that would be 8000 - 2000 = 6000 in this case).

King of Nowhere
2019-09-30, 04:56 AM
I know what the RAW is. Basically what happens is that we level up at the end of the session when it is late and everyone is tired, and players keep saying "I'll do it next time," and then just never get back to me.


Next session you start by making them level up. Problem solved.
If they complain that they lose time you point out that they are complaining because they are fighting with less levels than they should have, and they cannot be bothered to level up in their own time.
The line between being nice and taking crap for other people failings is a fine one to walk

But it may also be that your players are not optimizers and they are complaining that the campaign is too hard for them. In which case it is your job to tone it down. Challenge ratings are meaningless in front of party optimization

By the way, you said you did quit with your old group. Do you already have a new one?

MoiMagnus
2019-09-30, 05:41 AM
I have noticed that several of my players are reluctant to spend any resources on improving their characters.

They hoard their gold rather than buying upgrades that are not absolute "best in slot", and sometimes they even go several levels without spending any feats or skill points, and as a result they are noticeably weaker than they are supposed to be.

Now, this wouldn't ordinarily be a problem, its their choice, but at the same time they often bitch at me for creating encounters that are "too hard for them" because they are balanced around characters with the normal allotment of items, skills, and feats for a character of their level, so it seems like they are creating their own problems and then taking it out on me.

Whenever I try and talk to them about it, they simply say that "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure," which kind of boggles my mind as points just sitting in a pool being unused are completely worthless.

Any advice on how to handle this?

Hoarding essentially come from the fear of making a bad choice. It come from the fact that ill-spending resources can be worst than keeping them.
And that's also why difficulty in encounter don't change their mind: sure, it is difficult partly because they hoard, but it would be even worst if they spend their money poorly so that it gives them negligible advantage now, but prevent them to use money latter.

An additional factor is that some players don't want to play RPG as a resource management game, so trying to spend money cleverly looks annoying, so they just wait for a big arrow with "spend money here or lose the game" written on it to actually spend their money.

Hence, some advice:

1) Make reselling and re-specialization easier. Games that have rules "you sell at half the price that you buy", while realistic, push players to never buy stuff unless they are sure to use it. Same for game mechanics, if your choice cannot be easily changed, they it pushes peoples to be overly cautious.

2) Inflation. A lot of RPG system practice inflation: for one high level item, you could buy hundreds of lower-level ones. And "high level quests" also give reward hundreds of time higher than low level ones. This push player to spend their money now, since any money spared will be negligible latter. You probably also want low level items to be kind of unusable/uninteresting at high level, otherwise it breaks apart. [Note: I had a DM who even went farther: at each new level tier, we essentially lose all our money and consumable items, since money change name and consumables like potions don't work on us because we're "too magical" so we have to buy potions adequate to our new level.]

3) Make stuff they can buy more flashy. "Nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure" and "they are noticeably weaker than they are supposed to be" together mean that what they can chose looks significantly weaker than what it is in practice. People's intuition are very bad at statistics and estimating "how good is a +X at this kind of test". It goes from players that think that if they have a +3 instead of a +4 in Strength modifier, they are the most useless fighter in the world and will never manage to kill an enemy, to a player that essentially consider that tests are pure luck and that if a magical object give only a +2 to a test then it's not worth bothering with it (i.e bonuses start being relevant when it reaches +/-5). Your group looks like the kind of groups that disregard the stat bonus when reading the effect of magical object, and only care about the other effects. So if the objects they can buy are "boring", they will not consider them as strong.

Kaptin Keen
2019-09-30, 05:45 AM
My players can have as much gold as they want, because I've discarded the goldpiece-to-magic economy: You cannot buy magic items outside of the odd scroll or potion. Bam. So if your build relies on getting the multibarrelled staff of megadeath at level 16, you'd better have some other way of getting it.

And meanwhile, all the gold you hoard might as well go into buying a fortress or some such.

I find it works wonderfully, but I don't assume that's universel.

Alhallor
2019-09-30, 05:58 AM
I don't know if it helps with your System but I pretty much like "Special experiences" for a skill or a feat or any statistic that can be raised.

For assumed 3.5 Instead of 1 Rank skill up you gain two (but still spending 1 Point).

Buy a Feat for half a feat (for another Special experience you can buy another Feat).

BUT you can only ever have 1 "Special experience" if you gain a new one, you lose the old one.

So Points have to be spent if you don't want to lose the experience.

DeTess
2019-09-30, 06:06 AM
Whenever I try and talk to them about it, they simply say that "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure," which kind of boggles my mind as points just sitting in a pool being unused are completely worthless.


Maybe ask them what they would consider worth the expenditure?

Kardwill
2019-09-30, 07:57 AM
I don't really know how to force the issue without overstepping my bounds or pissing my players off.

"Hey, guys, we forgot to spend your points last time. Could you level up your characters so that they're ready next time? If you have questions, we'll deal with it quickly at the start of the next game, but I need them to be complete before the game begins. Thanks"

I'm a hoarder myself, and having the GM say "you have to invest your XP NOW or lose them" helps me tremendously, since I have to make an instant decision and cannot hesitate for several sessions about what is best ^^

As for the gold problem, I can't really help you, since I avoid games where money can buy direct permanent character upgrade. I prefer to spend my PC's money on "story" stuff like a skyship, a base of operation, a nice outfit for the governor's ball, a fee for a skilled pilot for our getaway helicopter, or paying the bill to repair the orphanage the mage just accidentally firebaled. Feels better than having to skim a magical item catalog. :p

Faily
2019-09-30, 09:35 AM
Players aren't levelling up/picking feats/distributing skill points.
- Declare it to be done at the start of a session before gameplay begins. Game does not start until everyone is ready. Point out that the way of doing it at the end of session clearly doesn't work given the past track-record, so to bring characters up to speed declare that this is the way it will be done to ensure that characters are on scale with what the GM has prepared. Honestly, if they throw a fit over that, I'd personally consider not playing with them (I play with adults, I don't like adults throwing temper tantrums).


Players aren't spending money to purchase magic items/gear.
- There's always the simple "you can't spend it if you're dead" that I think is a good kick in the butt to get people to realise that they need to use it (same way I say "healer can't heal you if they're dead"). Buy a +2 stat-boost first, and then later upgrade it when you get more money.

MrSandman
2019-09-30, 10:11 AM
I have noticed that several of my players are reluctant to spend any resources on improving their characters.

Whenever I try and talk to them about it, they simply say that "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure," which kind of boggles my mind as points just sitting in a pool being unused are completely worthless.

Any advice on how to handle this?

You could simply not level up, not allow them to purchase equipment that significantly increases their power and not make encounters more difficult as the game progresses. There, everyone happy.

16bearswutIdo
2019-09-30, 12:13 PM
The answer is, unironically, to throw monsters at them they would be able to handle if they used their gold and feats. They'll get the picture or they'll die.

Alternatively, put your foot down as a DM (which is basically your role) and tell them they use their feats/skill points before the next session begins or they lose it. They can hoard gold if they want, but things might get rough real quick.

Talakeal
2019-09-30, 03:35 PM
My players can have as much gold as they want, because I've discarded the goldpiece-to-magic economy: You cannot buy magic items outside of the odd scroll or potion. Bam. So if your build relies on getting the multibarrelled staff of megadeath at level 16, you'd better have some other way of getting it.

And meanwhile, all the gold you hoard might as well go into buying a fortress or some such.

I find it works wonderfully, but I don't assume that's universel.

Heck, there are a lot of mundane items they don't buy, like masterwork tools for their skills or masterwork / exotic material backup weapons.


Assuming 3.5 here, do you and your players know that many magic items can be upgraded gradually?

If you want to put the Flaming enchantment on your sword +1, you don't have to sell your old sword for 1000 gp, than buy a new +1 sword of flaming for 8000. Instead you upgrade your sword with the flaming enchantment paying the difference (that would be 8000 - 2000 = 6000 in this case).

Yes.


2) Inflation. A lot of RPG system practice inflation: for one high level item, you could buy hundreds of lower-level ones. And "high level quests" also give reward hundreds of time higher than low level ones. This push player to spend their money now, since any money spared will be negligible latter. You probably also want low level items to be kind of unusable/uninteresting at high level, otherwise it breaks apart. [Note: I had a DM who even went farther: at each new level tier, we essentially lose all our money and consumable items, since money change name and consumables like potions don't work on us because we're "too magical" so we have to buy potions adequate to our new level.]

Oh, I use inflation, that's why it baffles me. They would rather save up 400,000 gold (something they won't get before the end of the campaign) for upgrading their sword from +7 to +8 than spend 2,000 gold to buy a +1 rink of protection or cloak of resistance. Likewise with feats, they will pick up all of the offensive feats in the game but refuse to pick up any of the defensive feats because they "aren't worth the slot", and put all of their skill points into one or two skills and then leave the ones that they only use occasionally at zero.

AFAICT they consider anything that isn't an upgrade to their primary skill / attack method not worth their time. I hear things like "monsters ALWAYS hit me anyway, so why do I care about a measly +1 to AC?", even though a +1 to AC will always be at least a 5% increase to survivability.

King of Nowhere
2019-09-30, 04:19 PM
They would rather save up 400,000 gold (something they won't get before the end of the campaign) for upgrading their sword from +7 to +8 than spend 2,000 gold to buy a +1 rink of protection or cloak of resistance. Likewise with feats, they will pick up all of the offensive feats in the game but refuse to pick up any of the defensive feats because they "aren't worth the slot", and put all of their skill points into one or two skills and then leave the ones that they only use occasionally at zero.

AFAICT they consider anything that isn't an upgrade to their primary skill / attack method not worth their time. I hear things like "monsters ALWAYS hit me anyway, so why do I care about a measly +1 to AC?", even though a +1 to AC will always be at least a 5% increase to survivability.

persuade them to take tuition in mathematics :smalltongue:

Talakeal
2019-10-01, 04:10 AM
By the way, you said you did quit with your old group. Do you already have a new one?

I didn't say I was leaving the group, I said that I was going to take a long, perhaps permanent, break from GMing for them after I wrap up my current campaign. Three sessions left.

weckar
2019-10-01, 07:40 AM
With only three sessions left, it may be not worth righting this particular ship anymore. Just ride it out, ya know?

Personally, I refuse to give monetary rewards; the issue never comes up that way.

zinycor
2019-10-01, 07:45 AM
With only three sessions left, it may be not worth righting this particular ship anymore. Just ride it out, ya know?

Personally, I refuse to give monetary rewards; the issue never comes up that way.

Weird, monetary rewards are often a motivation for adventurers, specially rogue types.

Altheus
2019-10-01, 07:52 AM
I just want to point out that holding a lot of coin makes you a big target if the word gets out that you are holding a lot of currency or portable wealth.

Have someone get caught snooping around whatever wealth store they have (or not get caught and get seen escaping). After that, if they're still hoarding without taking any protective measures or moving their hoard then have them robbed by a party composed of their equivalents who have spent their XP and have the appropriate feats and skills. (You telegraphed it, it's not unfair).

And, a use it or lose it ultimatum is also perfectly legitimate in this situation.

Another option is to limit their opposition to small-time challenges, below their current level with similar small time rewards. "Hah, we stormed through that dungeon like a whirlwind, what did we collect?"

"14 Copper pieces and the goblin chiefs bogie collection."

Also, don't have them hired for tasks of their level until they level up and show that they have the skills to handle things.

weckar
2019-10-01, 08:31 AM
Weird, monetary rewards are often a motivation for adventurers, specially rogue types.

Motivation is easy if you can hold credible "or else"s in front of their character.

zinycor
2019-10-01, 09:01 AM
Motivation is easy if you can hold credible "or else"s in front of their character.

What? Sorry am not following.

DeTess
2019-10-01, 09:05 AM
What? Sorry am not following.

I think what Weckar means is that they generally use the 'stick' method of adventurer motivation, rather than the 'carrot' approach.

weckar
2019-10-01, 09:09 AM
Basically that.


Sure, you could not go on this adventure, but that will probably lead to war.
People will continue to be kidnapped unless you do something.
Do you want to continue being cursed?
The world is about to end, unless you step in. Do you?

zinycor
2019-10-01, 09:19 AM
Basically that.


Sure, you could not go on this adventure, but that will probably lead to war.
People will continue to be kidnapped unless you do something.
Do you want to continue being cursed?
The world is about to end, unless you step in. Do you?



Well, those are perfectly good motivations, but don't work for all kinds of adventures or adventurers. For example: A low level thief on a low scale adventure.

weckar
2019-10-01, 09:33 AM
There's always an appropriate stick to be found. And sticks don't sit in someone bank account uselessly forever.

zinycor
2019-10-01, 09:45 AM
There's always an appropriate stick to be found. And sticks don't sit in someone bank account uselessly forever.

Am of the idea that motivations are the players responsibility to come up with, and I haven't tried to suggest sticks as a possible motivation, are players usually happy to come up with those?

weckar
2019-10-01, 09:53 AM
I wouldn't know. I don't trust my players to motivate their own characters.

zinycor
2019-10-01, 09:56 AM
I wouldn't know. I don't trust my players to motivate their own characters.

Might be a difference on GMing style then.

weckar
2019-10-01, 10:01 AM
More likely a difference in player type. Most of mine are extremely passive players.

zinycor
2019-10-01, 10:16 AM
More likely a difference in player type. Most of mine are extremely passive players.

Very possible, I have kicked out of my group a couple of players for being too passive.

weckar
2019-10-01, 10:36 AM
I'd never, considering this is one of the few things keeping an international friend group together.

Kardwill
2019-10-01, 11:06 AM
Am of the idea that motivations are the players responsibility to come up with, and I haven't tried to suggest sticks as a possible motivation, are players usually happy to come up with those?
My experience is that ever since we do collab creation of the game premise during session zero, my players are usually happy to weave their characters in the world and together. So, if something bad might happen to elements of the game world, they'll care enough to act on it. I guess that covers a fair chunk of Weckar's "sticks"
And of course, some players just LOVE getting their characters in trouble, or giving me material to get them in trouble, just so they'll have to work hard just staying alive (and looking cool in the process) ^^

Telonius
2019-10-01, 08:10 PM
This might be a bit of an odd question, but ... how old are the players?

Something that I've noticed is that people who grew up playing video games on things like the original NES 85 have more of a tendency to be resource hoarders. Back then, video games weren't designed to be very forgiving. You saved up your bonuses to fight the boss, and you better be sure that you're actually fighting the Big Bad before you used your Potion of Ultimate Doom. That kind of thing seems to carry over into other gaming areas. People who grew up after that? The games tended to have a lot more opportunities to get equipment and little bonuses along the way. You're not totally up a creek if you use ten super bombs (or whatever) before you get to the boss.

Talakeal
2019-10-01, 08:36 PM
This might be a bit of an odd question, but ... how old are the players?

Something that I've noticed is that people who grew up playing video games on things like the original NES 85 have more of a tendency to be resource hoarders. Back then, video games weren't designed to be very forgiving. You saved up your bonuses to fight the boss, and you better be sure that you're actually fighting the Big Bad before you used your Potion of Ultimate Doom. That kind of thing seems to carry over into other gaming areas. People who grew up after that? The games tended to have a lot more opportunities to get equipment and little bonuses along the way. You're not totally up a creek if you use ten super bombs (or whatever) before you get to the boss.

I totally agree when it comes to consumables, but they are reluctant to spend permanent passive character assets.


With only three sessions left, it may be not worth righting this particular ship anymore. Just ride it out, ya know?

I really don't want them to go into the grand finale at partial strength.

weckar
2019-10-01, 08:51 PM
If failure at the final hurdle isn't an option for you, I once again agree.

Xuc Xac
2019-10-01, 09:20 PM
I really don't want them to go into the grand finale at partial strength.

Why not? Let them die like chumps and then tell them "You lost because you were incredibly under-equipped and insufficiently trained. On the bright side, your next of kin is glad you didn't spend any of their inheritance on your own survival and left a nice sum for them."

Pauly
2019-10-01, 09:46 PM
The issue of players comes to wanting to choose the optimum skill/feat at the optimum time.

An easy way around it is to ‘use it or lose it’. The players have the chance to gain new skills/feats when they level up. Once the next session starts any unused skill/fear slots are list forever.

Just say the character had the opportunity to gain a new benefit, but chose not to get that benefit.

MoiMagnus
2019-10-02, 03:21 AM
Why not? Let them die like chumps and then tell them "You lost because you were incredibly under-equipped and insufficiently trained. On the bright side, your next of kin is glad you didn't spend any of their inheritance on your own survival and left a nice sum for them."

Maybe because he cares more about having a fun time while playing the grand finale (with an epic battle with powerful characters on both sides, evenly matched, with a tension to know who will win) rather than trying to teach the players a lesson or having an unconventional epilogue.

Kardwill
2019-10-02, 03:49 AM
I really don't want them to go into the grand finale at partial strength.

"Okay, guys. The next game is going to be the last one, the moment where **** really hits the fan. You do NOT want to be unprepared for this, so make sure your characters have been correctly leveled up and equiped before we start. Especially since we won't play them again, so no reason to hold anything back."

But in my experience, "use it now or lose it forever" is the most effective way to goad a hoarder into decision.

noob
2019-10-02, 04:10 AM
if it is dnd speak to them about item upgrading rules: if you buy a hat of +2 to diplomancy and then later want +4 to diplomancy you can just upgrade it for a cost equal to the difference between costs.


For the gold one; make that hoarded treasure noticeable by NPCs and hostile forces. Walking about with a large amount of liquid wealth makes them prime targets for pick-pockets, opportunistic thieves, etc. And the visible burden of coins and gems will likely draw the attention of dragons while within their territory.
It doesn't force them to spend their treasure, but it should highlight that hoarding up wealth carries its own advantages.

Then there's the physical burden and encumbrance of treasure. I know a lot of people don't use encumbrance rules for convenience, but they have their place in allowing high str characters to flatten people by falling on them.
These numbers are a mix f the 5e rules for currency and the 3.5e measurements from the Draconomicon.
Currency Size
• 50 coins or gems = 1 pound
• 1 gem = 5 coins in size
• 1 cubic foot of gems (loosely stacked) = 2,400 (48 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins (loosely stacked) = 12,000 (240 pounds)
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 3 feet wide by 1 inch high
• 1 cubic foot of coins in a pile = 5 feet wide by ½ inch high
• 1 ingot (or Trade Bar) is 50 coins in size and weight (1 pound)

Fixed for you: everyone likes fighting more stuff and everyone likes flattening people by falling on them(you could also grab those pathfinder monsters which are sections of hoard that comes to some sort of life and goes around to grow by absorbing more hoard)
then in the end the campaign becomes about having a huge hoard and standing on it ready to murderize things(and possibly summon damned souls from hell to grab more treasure for your hoard pile and to defend it)

King of Nowhere
2019-10-02, 06:55 AM
for all those of you who say "all that gold should make them a target", it doesn't make much sense.
the magic gear they would buy with the gold is just as valuable, and easier to pickpoket or to carry away.
of course, it also makes them somewhat more dangerous to rob, but they are inviting targets regardless

16bearswutIdo
2019-10-02, 07:24 AM
for all those of you who say "all that gold should make them a target", it doesn't make much sense.
the magic gear they would buy with the gold is just as valuable, and easier to pickpoket or to carry away.
of course, it also makes them somewhat more dangerous to rob, but they are inviting targets regardless

The big difference being that 100k gold is a quantifiable amount that someone can look at and go "Yes this is a lot of gold."

A +5 flaming scimitar might appear the same appearance-wise to a MW scimitar with an ornate design until the person starts swinging it and it gets wreathed in flame.

Unless the DM is giving meta knowledge to his NPCS, then y'know whatever

OldTrees1
2019-10-02, 07:43 AM
Have you considered they might be right? Serious consider that.

In many systems you are punished for incremental upgrades rather than large jumps.
In 3.5 D&D buying and then selling a normal, masterwork, +1, +2, ..., +9 weapon costs more than buying a +1, a +6, and a +10 weapon. (which is why people were glad for the upgrading rules)

Furthermore I remember you first mentioning this "hoarding" by a player not buying consumables. You might buy consumables, but not everyone does. Consumables are a way to gain a short term advantage at the cost of being under equipped in the long run.

Both you and your players are concerned about being under equipped. However you have taught them they need to hoard or they will die for lack of affording the important equipment. So any amount of scrounging they can do now helps against those later fights.


If you want to discourage hoarding, don't incentive hoarding. Make it so the players feel comfortable sacrificing long term benefit. Rather than paranoid that you are trying to trick them into sacrificing long term benefit. If each of your combats tells them they ought to have scrounged more earlier, then they will scrounge more now in preparation for later.

King of Nowhere
2019-10-02, 08:44 AM
The big difference being that 100k gold is a quantifiable amount that someone can look at and go "Yes this is a lot of gold."

A +5 flaming scimitar might appear the same appearance-wise to a MW scimitar with an ornate design until the person starts swinging it and it gets wreathed in flame.

Unless the DM is giving meta knowledge to his NPCS, then y'know whatever

Unless the DM is giving meta knowledge to his NPCS, how exactly are those NPCs supposed to know that the party has 100k gold? I doubt they lug it around in an open cart.

if they keep it in bags of holding like most adventuring parties, then it's actually more likely that a knowledge or spellcraft check may identify the scimitar as powerfully enchanted than there is that npcs may know what's inside the bags. even if they carry it mundanely, a packhorse with saddlebags full of gold is undistinguishable from a packhorse with saddlebags full of random riff-raff.

Bjarkmundur
2019-10-02, 01:34 PM
I spent weeks on this problem before I even started playing (5e) for real, cause I really wanted an active economy in my game. We had taken one short dungeon crawl as a warm-up, then took summer break before starting Dragon Heist. I used this time to carefully craft how my world treats currency overall.

I'm not exactly sure what did it, so I can't solve your problem in one fell swoop, but a big part of it was increasing the frequency of use for currency overall. You can check my houserule document. These are the things to look out for:

- Downtime every other session
Here players can spend or earn gold on all kinds of things.

- Mandatory Lifestyle Expenses Each Downtime
This gets the players used to spending money, but also drives them to earn it.

- Make a Custom Market With Only Useful Items
I don't like presenting my players with trap options. For that reason I carefully compiled a market list of things that I know will be useful for my specific campaign. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588952-General-PC-Shopping-List&highlight=shopping+list)is a great starting-off point if you're playing 5e. If not, you at least get the idea.

- Gold Cap on Markets
My markets cap out at 400gp (Sane Magic Item Prices), which means the player don't get an immediate goal for saving money. There is nothing expensive staring them it the face.
Everything more expensive can only be bought my special contacts or NPCs, which I introduce to the party at the appropriate level. For example a guy that can get you these 3 magic weapons and these two special pairs of boots.

- Monatery Rewards Never Exceed Market Cap
My players are never going to get more money for a single quest that the market cap (and then they have yet to split it between themselves). With a market cap of 400gp my players are getting between 70gp and 350gp each session, which is then split between them.

- Money Moves Fast
Because of how fast money goes to and from the hands of my players, I can carefully adjust their income to find a good balance.

Gallowglass
2019-10-02, 01:41 PM
Many players simply don't like playing the magic mart shopping game.

Prior editions of D&D, the magic mart was the exception not the rule. *cranky old man voice* in my day you made due with what you got from the dragon horde and you liked it! */voice*

The bulk of real players, meaning not the OPfu posters in this forum, but the guys actually playing games, don't want to spend hours out of game researching the best equipment they just want to play the game.

Why do you consistently punish your players for not liking the same game you do?

If this is a problem for you, why don't you start seeding the equipment you think they should be using into the treasure hordes you hand out?

zinycor
2019-10-02, 01:46 PM
If this is a problem for you, why don't you start seeding the equipment you think they should be using into the treasure hordes you hand out?

Never thought of that, but it is a wonderfully simple solution.

weckar
2019-10-02, 01:58 PM
It really is, and is generally my strategy. And I tend to customize items either to the point that it will be useful for 2 or 3 of the current characters so there's little need to sell things off.
Add to that a sprinkling of mostly cosmetic magic items, consumables, and about a 20% cursed/intelligent item rate and you end up with nice loot piles to the point where ever giving money becomes superfluous.

Cluedrew
2019-10-02, 06:27 PM
I really don't want them to go into the grand finale at partial strength.
If failure at the final hurdle isn't an option for you, I once again agree.Why?

Give them the heads up that the end is near sure, but if they don't want to power up for it let things play out. That's the point in my mind.

For general advice: I tend not to use consumables unless they are part of the "main loop" of the game. Simply because I tend not to think of it in the moment or would rather go back and prefect that main loop so I don't have to. So for consumables making the first few per-[some amount of play] trivial to afford and effective to use. Like per-battle/day slots, or how Monster Hunter gives a few free items at the beginning of a mission.

For permanent items upgrade paths could work, enforcing it might be... OK I don't think it would go over well with this group. But I have played games that alternate usage and money requirements. So each level you have to gain some experience, which unlocked the ability to upgrade it, which allowed it to gain experience for the next level and so on. The trick for a table top game would be simplifying it so there aren't as many numbers to track.

Talakeal
2019-10-02, 10:45 PM
Many players simply don't like playing the magic mart shopping game.

Prior editions of D&D, the magic mart was the exception not the rule. *cranky old man voice* in my day you made due with what you got from the dragon horde and you liked it! */voice*

The bulk of real players, meaning not the OPfu posters in this forum, but the guys actually playing games, don't want to spend hours out of game researching the best equipment they just want to play the game.

Why do you consistently punish your players for not liking the same game you do?

If this is a problem for you, why don't you start seeding the equipment you think they should be using into the treasure hordes you hand out?

Honestly its not even magic mart stuff for the most part, like they don't even buy mundane tools for skills that they don't frequently use even though the cost would be a drop in the bucket, and that's to say nothing of not spending feats or skill points.

As for the latter, (assuming your assertions are true, which I doubt) it is because I am bad at reading people and my players are being incredibly passive aggressive by playing poorly rather than simply telling me "I don't like this rule, can we change it?".

Seeding equipment into treasure hoards might work if done sparingly, but overall it just comes across (to me) as a railroading jerk; rather than letting the players spend their money on whatever they want*, I am telling them that they instead get exactly what I tell them to and warp the in game reality to accomplish this.

*I know the distinction might be lost in forum straw-man land, but there is a huge gray area between "Please buy something," and "You must buy exactly what I tell you to!".


Have you considered they might be right? Serious consider that.

In many systems you are punished for incremental upgrades rather than large jumps.
In 3.5 D&D buying and then selling a normal, masterwork, +1, +2, ..., +9 weapon costs more than buying a +1, a +6, and a +10 weapon. (which is why people were glad for the upgrading rules)

Furthermore I remember you first mentioning this "hoarding" by a player not buying consumables. You might buy consumables, but not everyone does. Consumables are a way to gain a short term advantage at the cost of being under equipped in the long run.

Both you and your players are concerned about being under equipped. However you have taught them they need to hoard or they will die for lack of affording the important equipment. So any amount of scrounging they can do now helps against those later fights.


If you want to discourage hoarding, don't incentive hoarding. Make it so the players feel comfortable sacrificing long term benefit. Rather than paranoid that you are trying to trick them into sacrificing long term benefit. If each of your combats tells them they ought to have scrounged more earlier, then they will scrounge more now in preparation for later.

I am using upgrading at 100% efficiency, so that isn't a system problem.

This isn't really about consumables.

I have had a similar issue in the past where they complain about using too many consumables because they are using them re actively not proactively, for example they will face a flying monster, stand around with their thumbs in their rears while the archer solos it, and then drink a bunch of healing potions even though a potion of fly would have been a fraction of the cost.

But again, that's not the problem here.


Maybe because he cares more about having a fun time while playing the grand finale (with an epic battle with powerful characters on both sides, evenly matched, with a tension to know who will win) rather than trying to teach the players a lesson or having an unconventional epilogue.

This.

OldTrees1
2019-10-03, 12:22 AM
I am using upgrading at 100% efficiency, so that isn't a system problem.

This isn't really about consumables.

I have had a similar issue in the past where they complain about using too many consumables because they are using them re actively not proactively, for example they will face a flying monster, stand around with their thumbs in their rears while the archer solos it, and then drink a bunch of healing potions even though a potion of fly would have been a fraction of the cost.

But again, that's not the problem here.

Nice. The last time you made a thread on this topic, it was about a player not buying as many consumables as you felt they ought to buy. It is nice to see your system avoids the other concerns and has adapted to avoid that earlier issue too.

1) Do your player's know they can buy the "best in slot" item in stages? If you allow 100% effective upgrading, and the players know that, then they would probably buy that +4 Cloak of Charisma rather than wait for the +6 to be affordable.
2) Your encounter difficulty mismatch is a separate topic. Conflating it with their spending habits is not wise. They would still complain about the mismatch even if they were equipped to your preferred degree.
3) When you asked them they said "nothing they can buy is worth the expenditure". Honestly that can be the case sometimes. Sometimes it could be because nothing was valued by the PC. Other times it could be because the prices were higher than felt equitable for the benefit gained. Finding out what is "worth the expenditure" for that PC can help address the hoarding.
4) Eventually a PC will run out of things worth buying. In 3.5 D&D my martial characters completed their shopping list at 18th level. My spellcasters completed their shopping list at 9th level (it is a shorter list). After those lists, there was nothing permanent worth spending the money on. Especially once I considered the IRL opportunity cost of the character buying items vs doing other stuff.

patchyman
2019-10-03, 11:15 AM
Honestly, if they throw a fit over that, I'd personally consider not playing with them (I play with adults, I don't like adults throwing temper tantrums.

Talakeal’s players throwing a tantrum? That doesn’t sound like them at all! 😊

patchyman
2019-10-03, 11:23 AM
I really don't want them to go into the grand finale at partial strength.

This is the ultimate case of “use it or lose it”. Just tell them upfront “Guys, there are only about three sessions left. If you don’t upgrade your stuff, you’ll never be able to use it.”

Calthropstu
2019-10-03, 10:21 PM
Heck, there are a lot of mundane items they don't buy, like masterwork tools for their skills or masterwork / exotic material backup weapons.



Yes.



Oh, I use inflation, that's why it baffles me. They would rather save up 400,000 gold (something they won't get before the end of the campaign) for upgrading their sword from +7 to +8 than spend 2,000 gold to buy a +1 rink of protection or cloak of resistance. Likewise with feats, they will pick up all of the offensive feats in the game but refuse to pick up any of the defensive feats because they "aren't worth the slot", and put all of their skill points into one or two skills and then leave the ones that they only use occasionally at zero.

AFAICT they consider anything that isn't an upgrade to their primary skill / attack method not worth their time. I hear things like "monsters ALWAYS hit me anyway, so why do I care about a measly +1 to AC?", even though a +1 to AC will always be at least a 5% increase to survivability.

Meet Calthropstu.
This 12th level PFS aasimar Elemental bloodline(fire) sorcerer went his entire career with an AC of 8. His Schtick? Absurdly high Con and Charisma, decent Int, 7 STR, 7Dex. He had more HP than some of the melee people in some parties. He was a summons based sorcerer. He always found a spot to summon from that was out of immediate danger. Once he summoned, getting to him was nearly impossible because he would summon 1d3+1 large (or larger) creatures to protect him. Then he'd blast people with fire spells/murder them with summons.
The few times he would get into melee, he would withdraw or dimension door away, wait for his companions to come to his aid and let his hp function as intended. Instead of relying on AC, he relied on his ability to take a hit and get away.
Because of a particular boon I had which reduced gp cost of any single item purchased once per session, I hoarded my gold until I got the max tier item at 10% reduced cost. So +6 con belt, +6 Cha headband. I bought almost nothing else until I had those 2.
When my GMs asked me what my AC was my response was generally "anything but a 1."
I had zero problems contributing to combats, and I dominated social interactions.

These guys sound like they are doing something wrong, and if this is, in fact, 3.5 you can't "not spend" skill points/feats/etc.

Lvl 2 Expert
2019-10-04, 04:37 PM
This is the ultimate case of “use it or lose it”. Just tell them upfront “Guys, there are only about three sessions left. If you don’t upgrade your stuff, you’ll never be able to use it.”

I agree with this. There's no reason at this point to make it any more complicated than it has to be. No making items available for purchase right when and where they'll need them no subtly showing them the value of investing in their characters to get even more loot, just straight up tell them that this is the boss level at the end of the campaign, and if their strategy was to save, this is what they have been saving for.

Jay R
2019-10-06, 05:31 PM
You can suggest; you can advise; you can recommend.

But you can’t force players to play smart. Smart doesn’t work that way.

Tawmis
2019-10-06, 06:48 PM
TLDR;

Players hoarding gold; using banks.

Bank gets robbed, maybe, players have to go track them down.
You can have it so the bandits are spending lavishly as the party is giving chase (the bandits would have a few days advance on the players, unless they're somehow alerted immediately).

If they riot, so what. Welcome to the world of D&D. Adventurers go kicking down a goblin's cave and killing and stealing all the time.

Now it's happened to the players.

If you're too concerned about that, then... so be it. They remain weak. Explain to them that they have the funding to be able to better handle the encounters, should they choose to spend their money. Otherwise, they're going to keep getting a beating.

Talakeal
2019-10-06, 10:26 PM
Ok, so I talked to the players some more, and convinced them to at least spend their feats and skill points.

Basically, there is method to their madness. Once he heard that there were only X sessions left, one of the players decided that he would spend 100% of his gold on consumables going into the final fight, and then retire his character immediately afterwards.

I don't like this plan, as it is at its core very meta-gamey, could backfire horribly, and kind of spoils the whole concept of a final showdown, but at least I understand it.


I still don't understand why the players won't spend points on dirt cheap defensive items or those that help them detect enemies / remain undetected themselves, but we got the rest of it worked out.

OldTrees1
2019-10-07, 06:13 PM
I still don't understand why the players won't spend points on dirt cheap defensive items or those that help them detect enemies / remain undetected themselves, but we got the rest of it worked out.

Well, it depends on the player's perceptions of the system, the DM, and themselves.

The System:
Let's take a simplistic system (akin to but not D&D 3.5) where
1) Attack bonus scales with level and gold
2) Health scales with level and gold
3) Damage scales with level and gold
4) Armor Class scales with gold
In this system investing in AC is like running on a treadmill. This is like the Red Queen's quote

"Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
However AC was merely 1 of the 4 defensive stats in this system. More Health means more turns alive. More Damage means the enemy attacks for fewer turns. More Attack bonus means more damage per round. Depending on how the math works out, it might be better off to invest in everything but Armor Class rather than invest anything in Armor Class.

The DM:
Why get a Ring of Fire Resistance if the DM will respond by not having Fire damage? Why invest in Defenses if the DM will respond by rebalancing the enemy's attack to be higher or more damaging? The DM nerfs my attempts at becoming safe but not my attempts at becoming dangerous. I better buy a +10 weapon before a +2 armor.

Also remember this is based on the Player's perceptions (whatever they may be) of these details. Not yours.

Themselves:
They want to be able to do something. Usually that means proactive upgrades in that direction will be prioritized over reactive and especially unrelated upgrades.

For example I will never get a +2 weapon in 5E D&D. A +0 magic weapon with a neat ability would be more up my alley, but if there is none to be found I will settle for a +1 magic weapon merely for piercing damage reduction. Likewise I have no incentive to get magic armor in 5E D&D (excluding when a trap destroys all my non magical gear). Those upgrades are unrelated to what I would want so I consider them not worth the price. In contrast I really like the Slippers of Spider Climbing (a qualitative upgrade to movement) and the Luckstone(+1 to skills and saves).