Why is dungeon Crasher + shocktrooper good?

[Voidstar01]

I get that 8d6+3xSTR damage is good, but it's contingent on a wall being there to squish them against.

Compare to:

Full greatsword attack: 8d6+ 6xSTR (1-1/2 x 4) contingent on all attacks hitting, but can by buffed with: power attack, haste, enhancing a weapon, being larger etc.

Shock trooper makes bulrushes better, but I still don't really get whats so great about it.

I assume i'm missing something?


EDIT: secondary question, is dungeon crasher worth it if i'm not doing anything else with bulrush?

[NNescio]

I get that 8d6+3xSTR damage is good, but it's contingent on a wall being there to squish them against.

Compare to:

Full greatsword attack: 8d6+ 6xSTR (1-1/2 x 4) contingent on all attacks hitting, but can by buffed with: power attack, haste, enhancing a weapon, being larger etc.

Shock trooper makes bulrushes better, but I still don't really get whats so great about it.

I assume i'm missing something?

You need a full attack to get all your iteratives, which limits you to a 5-ft step. Meanwhile dungeoncrasher let's you charge at the same time, and also pushes enemies for battlefield control. Shock Trooper lets you aim your bullrush more precisely, via the Directed Bullrush option. It also gives you more flexibility, as you can choose to 'trip' enemies instead or go plain ubercharger. Combine this with Power Attack/Knockback/Shield Slam/Shield Charge (the Bulldozer build) and you turn into a walking super Fireball.

Also with flight you don't even need walls to trigger dungeoncrasher, as you can just fly above your enemies and bullrush them into the floor.

[Voidstar01]

You need a full attack to get all your iteratives, which limits you to a 5-ft step. Meanwhile dungeoncrasher let's you charge at the same time, and also pushes enemies for battlefield control. Shock Trooper lets you slam people into walls repeatedly with one bullrush, via the Directed Bullrush option. It also gives you more flexibility, as you can choose to 'trip' enemies instead or go plain ubercharger. Combine this with Power Attack/Knockback/Shield Slam/Shield Charge (the Bulldozer build) and you turn into a walking Fireball.

Also with flight you don't even need walls to trigger dungeoncrasher, as you can just fly above your enemies and bullrush them into the floor.

I'd argue it's easier to take 1 level of lion barbarian to get a full attack at the end of a charge then lose 2 bonus feats to get dungeon crasher, but I see where the rest of that comes in.

So to summarise, Dungeon crasher + shocktrooper is good as a build around, but not something you slap on with your last 3 feats to make your build stronger (if you aren't already doing bull rush stuff). is that correct?

[Ramza00]

It gives the fighter more options.

1) With flight you can bull rush people into the ground.
2) There are feats and magic items / weapons that allow a fighter a free bull rush as part of a larger attack routine.
3) Sometimes you are not set up for a full attack but can get a charging bull rush off.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Combine Dungeoncrasher with the Knockback feat and you can full attack AND bull rush.

And it's not like walls (or other obstacles to crush enemies against) are rare.
If you somehow lack them (and can't crush people against the ground) you can always ask your party caster to make some.

[Ramza00]

Dragon 304 has some great thrown weapon feats on pages 83 to 85. Several feats in these 3 pages but these are a feat change of Heft, Windup, Rout, Bowl Over.

Windup: Power Attack for Weapons under a different name, 1:1 ratio for sacrificing attack to get more damage on thrown weapons.

[Honestly Windup should just be folded into power attack or be substituted for power attack much like the Tome of Battle feat Stone Power.]
Rout: Weapons that weight 2lbs or more that you throw automatically do a bull rush attack.
Heft: 1.5x Str bonus to damage with thrown weapons (Normally 1.0x Str bonus to damage.)
Bowl Over: Free Trip Attack if you do 10 or more damage with a throw attack.

Now remember Javelins are 2 lbs for medium creatures and 4 lbs for large. Thus it is easy to make a fighter build with the 2 dungeoncrasher feats / variant class options, plus the 4 feat chain I listed above and then use gloves of endless javelins.

These javelins are 1d6 + 1.5xStr +1 enhancement bonus to damage. Via a combination of feats, strength, and windup power throw make sure to guarantee the 10 or more damage (and force bypasses damage reduction, so in effect a very simple task) and every attack you make with the javelins are both a bull rush attempt and a trip attempt for free.

So in Sum Dungeoncrasher is a 2 feat chain+Bowl Over is a 4 feat chain from Dragon 304+Other Feat Chains to Improve Bull Rush+Other Feat Chains to improve Trip+Other Feat Chains to improve damage but maximum damage is not really necessary if you can battlefield control well enough with Bull Rush and Tripping.

Gain a source of flight and now you are throwing javelins of force and smiting the things on the ground like you are Zeus / Jupiter of Lore. Eventually though at levels 11+ spellcasting and gishing are just better options even though this can be a fun build to play.

In addition there are other thrown weapon builds out there such as the Bloodstorm Blade, or the Boomerang Daze-r feat chain (note you can stack the Rout / Bowl Over Feat chain plus the Boomerang Daze feat chain with the Drow Xen'Drik Boomerang but not with the Halfling Talenta Boomerang due to the weight of the weapons.) So my point this build loses some of its luster when you are in 7+ level spells gameplay realm.

[Voidstar01]

So my point this build loses some of its luster when you are in 7+ level spells gameplay realm.

I'm in epic levels so that's good to know, so it's not worth going dungeon crasher then?, do you know any ways to consistently render enemies flatfooted?

[Psyren]

I get that 8d6+3xSTR damage is good, but it's contingent on a wall being there to squish them against.
...
I assume i'm missing something?

Check the name of the game you're playing again, walls are usually a fairly safe assumption.

[Voidstar01]

Check the name of the game you're playing again, walls are usually a fairly safe assumption.

Eh... our game tends to have like big rooms. Like, really big, like I have a 175ft fly speed and it still takes me 2 rounds to get across sized rooms.

[Gallowglass]

Eh... our game tends to have like big rooms. Like, really big, like I have a 175ft fly speed and it still takes me 2 rounds to get across sized rooms.

Your experience is the same as my experience, but it is the aberration, not the norm.

It seems like with the advent of the battlemat, the abundance of games are filled with claustrophobic small sets of hallways and square rooms with ludicrous population dynamics.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm in epic levels so that's good to know, so it's not worth going dungeon crasher then?, do you know any ways to consistently render enemies flatfooted?There are a lot of enemies in epic that are seriously hard to take down without direct damage, and they have lots of reach and are hard to hit. Being able to add some negative status effects to your strikes (especially if you can add them to your throws) is pretty good, all in all.

Granted, magic is better, but then, magic is always better.

I like doing a teleport-attacker build, which grants full attacks any time you teleport. A properly timed dip in swordsage can net you [Ex] shadow teleport as a swift, move, and standard action, and being able to hurl three full attacks' worth of enemies away from you every round (complete with plenty of damage for all of them) is pretty darned nice. And if you can hurl someone into a distant wall, finish your current full attack, and then teleport next to that someone and full attack them into that wall a couple of times...

...well, it would certainly give you more bang for your buck that way.

And there's nothing saying you can't have both martial capability and magic. Gishes are a definite thing in 3rd ed.

[Eldariel]

Eh... our game tends to have like big rooms. Like, really big, like I have a 175ft fly speed and it still takes me 2 rounds to get across sized rooms.

Again, use Knockback for full attack wallbangs. That's just really nice and has the added battlefield control angle benefit (moving enemies around, tripping them with Shock Trooper's Domino Bull Rush, etc.). That's certainly nice, as is the breaking bonus (higher up you can walk through stone walls). And yeah, if you're in epic it's a swift action for a Party Caster to conjure some Bone Devils that can in turn cast all the Wall of Ices in the world to both, partition the enemy so that they can't actually take meaningful actions no matter how Freedom of Movemented and whatever they are, and provide you with surfaces to smash people against. Wall of Force (Leonal), Wall of Stone, etc. work similarly and retain usefulness well into epic since it's the one form of battlefield control there's no immunity to (teleportation is nice but generally takes an action and is somewhat limited; and there's always Dimensional Lock and the like).

Of course, it's only one option; there are many. You're an epic Fighter so you aren't gonna be particularly strong in the absolute sense anyways so pick the one you like.

[Doctor Awkward]

The primary use of the Shock Trooper feat is in builds that focus solely on charging and use the the Heedless Charge function. Since you are subtracting your penalty from your AC instead of your attack roll it is much easier to take the maximum Power Attack penalty of your BAB and still successfully hit.

In a build that includes dungeon crasher you would most likely combine it with the Knockback feat, enabling you to apply your Power Attack penalty to the subsequent bull rush attempt.

For example:

A 20th level Goliath Dungeon Crasher Fighter with 38 Strength and a +5 weapon.

On a charge, he is swinging at +42 to hit on his first attack, not including other assorted potential bonuses from feats and buffs. By taking the full penalty from Power Attack, his opposed check is 14 Strength + 4 Improved Bull Rush + 4 Size bonus from Powerful build + 2 from charging + 40 PA Penalty (20 penalty to AC, doubled from Knockback for using a two-handed weapon) for a total of +64.

A tarrasque has 35 AC and a total bonus of +33 to the opposed Strength check. The Goliath hits on anything other than a natural 1, and automatically pushes the tarrasque back a minimum of 15 feet before the check is even made, up to a maximum of 50 feet if the tarrasque rolls a 1 and the goliath rolls a 20.

As was already mentioned, at this level you can fly over top of your target and bull rush them into the ground. Add in pounce to this equation and the goliath could arguably do this routine on every swing of his full attack. Even his fourth hit would be at a +27, which means he hits on an 8 or higher.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...Oh, and you could dip into monk with Throwing and Distance on your flurry of unarmed strikes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) added to the dungeon crasher fighter to get more maneuverability on your full-attack teleports that way, as well. Throwing your body around lets you do the wuxia thing where you skim above the ground at high speed before each attack.

It's interesting what you can do with martial characters at high levels when you find ways to do things beyond "stand still and hit it with a stick."

[Voidstar01]

I'm a Thri-keen gish (spells known as a 9th level wizard, CL 13), devoted to multiweapon fighting, with the hit-and-run tactics ACF, and pounce my alternative to dungeon crasher is:

Raptor school + martial study (something shadow hand)+ martial stance(assassin's stance):

use something to render them flat-footed (raptor's feathers ability + battle of battle for extra standard action?), charge, hit flatfooted-foe 16 times adding Dexmod + 2d6 sneak attack to each attack. Use eagle's swoop + leaping charge for some extra damage.

If I drop dungeon crasher from the build I can get 2 extra feats (move some of the others to fighter feats to get more general feat slots)?
thoughts? any advice on rendering them flat footed? any advice on what to do with +60 jump?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are you a thri-kreen with or without the psi-like racial abilities? Because the latter lowers your LA and allows you more regular levels.

[Psyren]

Your experience is the same as my experience, but it is the aberration, not the norm.

It seems like with the advent of the battlemat, the abundance of games are filled with claustrophobic small sets of hallways and square rooms with ludicrous population dynamics.

I would wager safely than 350ft. diameter rooms are a rarity in most games, and definitely in published modules.


Eh... our game tends to have like big rooms. Like, really big, like I have a 175ft fly speed and it still takes me 2 rounds to get across sized rooms.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but you have to admit it's not the kind of campaign a handbook writer is likely to plan for either. When you're reading about how good Dungeoncrasher is, they're assuming your campaign isn't taking place in the Plane of Air or something :smalltongue:

[Voidstar01]

Are you a thri-kreen with or without the psi-like racial abilities? Because the latter lowers your LA and allows you more regular levels.

I took 2 levels in the thri-keen racial class from complete psionic (no lost BaB or anything)

[animewatcha]

When people suggest flight. That is mainly because it is the easiest way to establish 'strike from above' and less of a headache for 'bullrush into the ground'. Two humans could do it within the rules. However, then it makes more sense if one human did it via an overhead strike ( same reach, and everything just the direction of attack ) with say a heavy mace. This being versus the other human using say a dagger. It can depend upon your DM.

[Voidstar01]

When people suggest flight. That is mainly because it is the easiest way to establish 'strike from above' and less of a headache for 'bullrush into the ground'. Two humans could do it within the rules. However, then it makes more sense if one human did it via an overhead strike ( same reach, and everything just the direction of attack ) with say a heavy mace. This being versus the other human using say a dagger. It can depend upon your DM.


I might take it just because I can use my +64 jump modifier.

[animewatcha]

Jump modifier helps establish the 'strike from above'. However, there is fall damage to deal with. IIRC ( or it might have been how my group used to run it ), the less fall damage you take then the less fall damage the mob suffers ( if you land directly on them ).

[Voidstar01]

Jump modifier helps establish the 'strike from above'. However, there is fall damage to deal with. IIRC ( or it might have been how my group used to run it ), the less fall damage you take then the less fall damage the mob suffers ( if you land directly on them ).

By RAW, they don't take any damage when you land on them, also by RAW I can only jump 8 feet high because i'm limited by my height.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

By RAW, they don't take any damage when you land on them, also by RAW I can only jump 8 feet high because i'm limited by my height.That's a 3.0 rule. 3.5 nixed that restriction.

[Voidstar01]

That's a 3.0 rule. 3.5 nixed that restriction.

did it? sweet now I can apply all my +64 jump to getting real high (y'know as opposed to only being able to make a 30ft long jump from standing position)

[animewatcha]

By RAW, they don't take any damage when you land on them, also by RAW I can only jump 8 feet high because i'm limited by my height.

Falling object rules ? Granted my group used the rule of fall damage you take was 'landing damage' they took. If you tried to lessen it ( like with tumble or jump i can't remember ), they would also take less damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I took 2 levels in the thri-keen racial class from complete psionic (no lost BaB or anything)

The Thri-Kreen racial class is still getting 2 racial HD and a +2 LA. At the first two levels you get your racial HD, you get normal class levels at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th+ levels, but no class level or HD at the 4th and 6th levels, those are your +2 level adjustment. So at 20th level you have 16 class levels, and two racial HD.

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly: Most combats don't take place in a featureless plane. There's almost always going to be something to slam people into, potentially including the ground itself.

Secondly: Bull Rush, particularly with feat support like Knockback, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and Dungeoncrasher, is non-magical battlefield control - not the most flexible option, necessarily, but it's "something" where fighters and the like usually have "nothing". Putting your enemies where you want them is valuable, and being able to move the enemy 30 ft over and knock them prone right in the middle of an "Evard's Black Tentacles" makes their life suck.

Thirdly, while 8d6 + [6 * Str] is greater than 8d6 + [3 * Str], the former comes online at lvl 16 (maybe lvl 11 with a haste effect?), while the latter comes online at level 6 (and a lesser version comes online at lvl 2). At lvl 2, dungeoncrasher is better than just move+attack, at lvl 6 it's better than full attack, at lvl 11 it's maybe better than full attack, and at lvl 16 it's definitely worse (at least for pure damage).

Here's an idea of what could be happening at lvl 9 with all those things I mentioned in "Secondly":



Goliath Fighter 8 (Dungeoncrasher)

Stats (lvl 1, 32 pb): 20/12/16/8/16/8
Stats (lvl 6 w/ items): 22 (26)/12/16/8/16/8

Feats:
HD 1: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Improved Bull Rush
HD 3: Knockback
Fighter 4: Improved Sunder
HD 6: Shock Trooper
HD 8: Combat Brute
Fighter 8: Leap Attack


Skills:
Jump 8 (+14)

Items:[list]
+1 Full Plate
+1 Large Minotaur Greathammer
Belt Of Giant Strength +4


Leap-Charge somebody for a full-PA tradeoff. Nat 1 on Jump check means 15, clearing 15 ft and qualifying for Leap Attack bonus. Use Shock Trooper to shift the penalty to AC, letting you attack for +17/3d6+29 (19-20/x4). When you hit, Knockback gives you a bull rush attempt at +36 vs...hmm...Stone Giant is CR 8, so that's sounds good...they'd have a +22, so you'll tend to beat them by 10, knocking them back 15 ft without following. They hit a wall, and take another 8d6+24, for a total of probably 11d6+53, which is technically capable of killing them but realistically won't (although if you got a crit and dealt 12d6+116, then they're definitely dead before you've even knocked them back).

Assuming they're still alive the next round, and your allies have stopped them from turning you into paste (likely via lockdown of their own), you can charge again, this time with Combat Brute benefits: jump 15 ft, auto-make the check, +20/3d6+44 (19-20/x4).

[nedz]

There are some Tigerclaw manoeuvres you ought to look at.
e.g.

Make Jump check DC 20 (auto for you): Flat Footed, +4d6 damage, Land adjacent

Jump over target (should usually be easy enough) Flat Footed, +10d6 damage, Fort save (DC=Jump) or Stunned 1 round

I'm not sure you can crush them from above, but they are going to be Flat Footed.