Why must the good die young??

[Sir Jason]

Ok, I'm a little confused here. I bought Races of the Dragon. Personally, I rather enjoyed it, but maybe that's just because I have an abnormal fettish for large - scally - things - that - can - fly - and - have - cool - breath - weapons - and - that - are - really - cool - for - many - reasons - that - I - won't - discuss - here - because - it - has - almost - nothing - to - do - with - the - post - started - in - the - first - place. Anywho...

Power Word Pain. Anyone with an IQ higher than that of an unborn lemming's left pinky can easily notice how absolutely broken this spell is. Let's compare it to, say, magic missile, both caster level one in a level one adventure. I don't have to prove that 4d4d6 (short range) no save no somatic components no material components is a little bit stronger than 1d4+1 no save no material components, even if magic missile has a longer range. I think its safe to say that if you are smart enough to navigate your browser to this page and are able to read, you can notice the slight difference between power levels.

But what about fixing it? Well, the HP caps for the damage types make it really hard to make this well balanced, because it doesn't really fit anywhere except in a 5-8 level party, but at that point isn't really worth more than at most a third level slot.

Is there anyone out there that has a GOOD way of fixing this spell, so that it isn't perfectly legit for a level 1 kobold sorcerer (CR 1/2 I believe) to kill at least on PC per encounter upon winning initiative until level 5 for sure?

[DraPrime]

OHMYGODTHESCREENSTRETCH!!!!!!!

Is anyone else getting an incredibly stretched screen or is it just me?

[psychoticbarber]

While...

large-scally-things-that-can-fly-and-have-cool-breath-weapons-and-that-are-really-cool-for-many-reasons-that-I-won't-discuss-here-because-it-has-almost-nothing-to-do-with-the-post-started-in-the-first-place.
...is an awesome word, it makes the horizontalness way too much :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

[Reel On, Love]

OHMYGODTHESCREENSTRETCH!!!!!!!

Is anyone else getting an incredibly stretched screen or is it just me?

Just be glad you're not in Soviet Russia.

[RTGoodman]

OHMYGODTHESCREENSTRETCH!!!!!!!

Is anyone else getting an incredibly stretched screen or is it just me?

It's because of Sir Jason's super-long hyphenated word there.

Also, I don't have RoD with me, so you're gonna have to elaborate on what exactly the spell does. All I can find online is that it does "1d6 per round to one creature with under 100 hp." 4d6 is only an average of 14 damage though, which isn't a definite kill on anyone except wizards/sorcerers with no (or a negative) Con modifier, barring any high rolls.

EDIT: Multi-ninja'd regarding the page stretch while I was looking up spells...

[ArmorArmadillo]

DoTs are extremely weak in D&D combat due to the short run times of battles.
If you hit, say, a goblin with this spell, you're likely to do 2d6 or less. A fighter does that in a single round.

It'd be reasonably okay in long battles, but any creature who will last long enough to take significant damage should reasonably have 51+ hp.

At only 3rd level, you can double your damage per round with good ol' magic missle.

[Sir Jason]

rtg0922, it doesn't do 4d6. It actually does 4d4 d6. It wasn't a typo. Hopefully without breaching copyright, the spell does this:

Level 1 Sor/Wiz

Comp.: V

I stnrd action
range: close
Target: 1 living creature w 100 hp or less

saving throw: none
spell resist yes


does 1d6 per round for the duration of spell for the following duration based on current hp of target:

50 or less: lasts 4d4 rounds
51-75: lasts 2d4 rounds
76-100: lasts 1d4 rounds

So, pretty much, at level 1 its an average of 35 damage to someone with less than 50 hp, but let's face it, noone has 35 hp until at least level 3 unless there's some serious munchkining.

Also, sorry about the word. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

If you were really sorry, you'd edit your post.

I have a 1400x1050 monitor, and the page is still horribly stretched.

[RTGoodman]

Ridiculous spell...

:smalleek:

Never mind then. I have no idea how this is a good idea. Maybe they just assume that you won't use it against a party. Or maybe someone else can describe how this, at low levels, won't be an almost-sure player-killer.

[Fiery Justice]

My page is fine. Weird.

[Sir Jason]

Right, I fixed it. BTW, i didnt get any stretch either. And the reason I didnt fix it is because Im NOT really sorry... lol

So now that you understand what I mean, does ANYONE have a suggestion as to how to fix it? Or is it just the Voice of Fire of the DnD world (ie what were they thinking?), which would suck because its really cool to actually have a level 1 power word that was worth taking. Albeit TOO worth taking, but still.

Oh, and to make things worse, a kobold commoner can take rite of passage and gain power word pain as a spell-like ability once a day. So, whats that, a CR 1/8 (or is it 1/4?) that can kill a level 3 PC no save. Set up a swarm of these...

[Xefas]

Right, I fixed it. BTW, i didnt get any stretch either. And the reason I didnt fix it is because Im NOT really sorry... lol

So now that you understand what I mean, does ANYONE have a suggestion as to how to fix it? Or is it just the Voice of Fire of the DnD world (ie what were they thinking?), which would suck because its really cool to actually have a level 1 power word that was worth taking. Albeit TOO worth taking, but still.

Oh, and to make things worse, a kobold commoner can take rite of passage and gain power word pain as a spell-like ability once a day. So, whats that, a CR 1/8 (or is it 1/4?) that can kill a level 3 PC no save. Set up a swarm of these...

To make matters worse, it isn't totally unrealistic for kobolds to do this.

Dragon: "Alright, everyone in the clan, go get yourself a piece of chalk and a book of sorcery."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Now, draw that rune circle around yourself."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Okay, now start siphoning off your life force to get this spell."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Alright, good! Now send wave after wave of men, women, and children towards the PCs while casting this spell until they're all dead."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"

Ultimate...soldiers...

[Sir Jason]

fine then, i dont care about how evil it is, Im making a campaing where that happens. It will be so deliciously evil... Ill do it at higher levels too, so that it has time to build up to like 18d6 per round after a bunch of them cast it on the same guy. Sure, itll only be for one round at first, but it will stack, and stack... and theres no save... I wonder how high level i can make them to make sure they wont have more than 100 hp....
Makes me think of Halo 2 and filling someon with dual wielded needlers... takes a while, but when it blows, they aint getting up again...

Anyway, a bit of a tangent there. The point is to fix it, not find ways to break it even more... no matter how deliciously EVIL they are...

[RTGoodman]

To make matters worse, it isn't totally unrealistic for kobolds to do this.

Dragon: "Alright, everyone in the clan, go get yourself a piece of chalk and a book of sorcery."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Now, draw that rune circle around yourself."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Okay, now start siphoning off your life force to get this spell."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"
Dragon: "Alright, good! Now send wave after wave of men, women, and children towards the PCs while casting this spell until they're all dead."
Kobolds: "Yes, your lordship!"

Ultimate...soldiers...

Not to mention the two or three kobolds that learn Grease, Hold Portal, or Obscuring Mist to keep those pesky adventurers from coming any closer or getting away!

[Toric]

The current screen-stretch is from psychoticbarber's non-spaced quote. If that gets fixed/removed, the screen should snap back for those it effects.

Anyway, that spell strikes me as just crazy. High damage at low HP, low damage at high HP. Meaning it will become much less effective as level rises.

[Sir Jason]

Yes Toric, that is my point exactly. Can anyone fix it?

[TheElfLord]

What if you just switch the durations around? So less than 50 lasts 1d4 rounds and 70-100 lasts 4d4?

[Sir Jason]

Yeah, we tried that, but fluff-wise it doesn't really make sense that stronger PCs take more damage... I tried to argue that the spell turns their own strength against them, but the group didnt buy it.

[Xefas]

Yeah, we tried that, but fluff-wise it doesn't really make sense that stronger PCs take more damage... I tried to argue that the spell turns their own strength against them, but the group didnt buy it.

How about you take it out altogether and then suggest a homebrew spell called "Power Phrase: Turn Their Own Strength Against Them"?

[Sir Jason]

umm.... that might work... but its... you know... so long.... the name needs to roll of the tongue like a drunken hooker on the top balcony of the Embassy after spending the night wit-- sorry, what I mean is that it has to flow.

Regardless of the name, how do we think that this fares out? What level would it have to be then?

[kamikasei]

How about you take it out altogether and then suggest a homebrew spell called "Power Phrase: Turn Their Own Strength Against Them"?

There must be a single word we can use here.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Make it nonlethal damage. It's not much less effective when wielded by a PC. When wielded against PCs, it probably won't score the KO until after the combat.

Alternately, rule that the effect ends if the caster is KOed or killed (which makes sense for most duration-based spells and effects, if you ask me, but that's another issue altogether).

[Xefas]

There must be a single word we can use here.

Reversal? Rebuttal? Turnaround? Backfire? Ttosat?



Alternately, rule that the effect ends if the caster is KOed or killed (which makes sense for most duration-based spells and effects, if you ask me, but that's another issue altogether).

Back when I played World of Warcraft, they had quite a compelling argument on the Warlock boards about why their Damage over Time spells should persist after death (which they did, but lots of people didn't want them to).

Unfortunately, the reasoning was rather vulgar, and I dunno if it's polite for me to repeat it.

[Quietus]

Here's an idea. If a spell is too powerful, don't allow it. Problem solved.

[Sir Jason]

there we go! I think that the non-lethal damage idea works; pain isnt really lethal anyway. Well, I guess it arguably is if you go into shock, but I think that that is better represented by non-lethal damage leading to unconsciousness anyway. It also makes sense that the stronger guys take less. I think that that might be what the authors were aiming for; it takes the least reworking of the spell.

Is it agreed that this makes it a balanced spell? Its just like 'sleep', power wise, in my opinion. Agrees or disagrees?

Also, I agree that duration spells last after the caster dies. If I set your head on fire, does it go out if I die? If I throw little baby kittens into an oven on max, does it let them out if I die? If I inject botox into your eye, do you die any less if I do? No. So why would a wall disappear or a cloud dissipate; if its there, its there.

[Armads]

Maximized Power Word Pain (via Sudden Maximize)

64 damage at level 1 =P

[Sir Jason]

cant get sudden maximize at level one (i think.. need too many prereqs). But that would be an instant kill, since they have to have 50 or less hp to be affected, auto bringing them to -14. Kina like no save, divine reached, slay living for everyone that you might possibly encounter at that level.

[Armads]

You can. Human Wizard 1
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wiz bonus), Sudden Extend (1st level), Sudden Maximize (human bonus)

[triforcel]

If you really want to nerf the spell, why not give it a will save?

[Sir Jason]

.......................

Well then..... I know what to do now for a particular DM's level 3 campaign... He is a horrible DM, and I want to make him pay for his perpetual railroading... He once made us sit through half an hour of him giving us absolutely no player choice.

Anyway, I think that the non-lethal version is balanced. Though 64 non-lethal damage is still an auto KO. See Being Batman: its a save or lose without the save.

Cant give it a save; none of the OTHER word spells have one.... you don't want to make it different do you? Thats just mean... But seriously, its part of the 'power word' genre to have no save, so its pretty much tossing out the entire concept and making another one that just keeps the name

[triforcel]

I understand that non of the other Power Word spells allow saves, but none of them are level 1 spells either.

[Duke Malagigi]

You can use Witch's power word pain house rule. It can be found here (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7937).

[Sir Jason]

Actually, there are a few in Races of the Dragon. Not quite as broken as this one though. And none have saves. Plus, I think making it non-lethal solves it. Its like sleep, since it has a hp limit instead of a HD limit, and rolls damage instead of a save

I dont like that houserule. I instinctively and illogically (dont try and argue, I havent though of a reason for this yet) say that that houserule sucks, and I dont like it. There. *pouts* Its late, dont judge me.

[triforcel]

I don't care much for either of those solutions. One is an almost guaranteed sleep-like effect and the other is guaranteed to drop any character prone for the first few levels. Since the only way out of both of them is spell resistance, they seem a bit extreme for a first level spell.

[Armads]

How about just 3d6 no save. It's still less than a fighter's greatsword, and is like magic missile with less range.

[triforcel]

That's still a bit much for a first level spell. Shocking Grasp only deals 1d6/level (up to 5d6) and it requires a melee touch attack to use.

[Armads]

But Power Word Pain gets completely useless by level 7.

[triforcel]

But it's still overpowered for the first couple of levels. Especially, as you suggested with the original version, if you sudden maximize it. That's an automatic 18 damage, more hit points than any first level character would have except perhaps for a raging barbarian.

[Armads]

Hmm. It seems that it should be banned at lower levels.

[Quietus]

Hmm. It seems that it should be banned at lower levels.

Which, if I'm not mistaken, I suggested about a page ago.

[RTGoodman]

There must be a single word we can use here.

How about, Power Word: Retribution?


Anyway, after thinking about it, it seems to me that the spell might have actually been meant to do non-lethal damage. And even if not, I'd probably house-rule it that way anyway, since that seems like the best fix. Or just ban it outright, if you'd prefer not to change it, since as written it's way too powerful.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't have this book, but I've seen this spell discussed many times. It's generally accepted that the spell level is a typo; there's another power word spell in the same book and the two somehow traded spell levels without being caught by the editors.

[KIDS]

Well honestly that spell sounds as if someone accidentally added an extra d4 or something... the spellcasters are already beefed up enough, and casting this spell and then running until he dies is not a balanced use of game abilities. Heck, even the CO boards refuse to tinker with it...

[martyboy74]

How about, Power Word: Retribution?

Power Word: (Poetic) Irony.

[RTGoodman]

I don't have this book, but I've seen this spell discussed many times. It's generally accepted that the spell level is a typo; there's another power word spell in the same book and the two somehow traded spell levels without being caught by the editors.

What's the other spell? Or, more importantly what level is this supposed to really be?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Ill do it at higher levels too, so that it has time to build up to like 18d6 per round after a bunch of them cast it on the same guy. Sure, itll only be for one round at first, but it will stack, and stack...
No it won't. The same effect from same source never stacks with itself.

SRD:Magic Overview:Combining Magical Effects (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html#combining-magical-effects)

[triforcel]

No it won't. The same effect from same source never stacks with itself.

SRD:Magic Overview:Combining Magical Effects (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicOverview.html#combining-magical-effects)

Those rules are for buff, debuff, and mind control spells. There's nothing in the rules against stacking continual damage spell, i.e. multiple Melf's Acid Arrows.

[Indon]

You could make the spell Sor/Wiz 2, or even 3 if you really want to subdue it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Those rules are for buff, debuff, and mind control spells.
And where does it say that?

After the first initial group, it no longer refers to "bonuses" or "penalties" but simply effects.

Indeed, the whole section is "Combining Magical Effects"

[triforcel]

And where does it say that?

After the first initial group, it no longer refers to "bonuses" or "penalties" but simply effects.

Indeed, the whole section is "Combining Magical Effects"

It's pretty obvious if you read the entire section. Where does it say you can't stack damaging effects?

[martyboy74]

And where does it say that?

After the first initial group, it no longer refers to "bonuses" or "penalties" but simply effects.

Indeed, the whole section is "Combining Magical Effects"

Does that mean that a wizard could protect themselves from someone casting Maximized Acid Arrows by hitting themselves with a non-Maximized Acid Arrow?

[Tequila Sunrise]

What's the other spell? Or, more importantly what level is this supposed to really be?

Couldn't tell you for sure; Power Word, Annoy or some such. Apparently it's pathetically underpowered for its level, which is why players have come to the conclusion that its spell level did a switcharoo with Power Word Pain's spell level.

[Sir Jason]

The only one I see that sounds like that is Power Word Distract. Makes one dude with 151hp or less flat-footed.

That would make Pain level 4 and Distract level 1. Opinions? Pain might seem gimped at level 7 and above, but remember that it still means that as soon as a creature has 50 or less hp they are almost certainly dead, no save. Also, what's the final call on stacking that? Because I would think it would stack; doesn't make sense for damage to protect from damage.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does MAximizing this spell cause 64 damage in one blow? Wouldn't it cause 16 damage/round for 4 rounds? Still 64 damage, but not all at once...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's pretty obvious if you read the entire section.
If it were obvious, why are we discussing it?


Where does it say you can't stack damaging effects?
Where it says the same effect (period) does not stack with itself.

Once again: It talks about numerical bonuses in two sections. It talks about mind control in another section. And Instantaneous effects in a fourth. Nowhere in the remaining three sections on combining effects does it limit the discussion to any specific type of effect. They just address effects in general.


Does that mean that a wizard could protect themselves from someone casting Maximized Acid Arrows by hitting themselves with a non-Maximized Acid Arrow?
No, you couldn't, as the maximized acid arrow has a stronger effect, and the stronger effect takes precedence.



Also, what's the final call on stacking that? Because I would think it would stack; doesn't make sense for damage to protect from damage.
It's not damage protecting from damage. It's magical diminishing returns—a currently active magical effect interfering with the application of an identical version of the effect.

An in-character explanation:

When you cast power word: pain, you bathe your opponent in a particular quantity of magical energy. This energy starts to damage your opponent—eating away at internal organs and the like. Well, it just so happens that you bathed your opponent in just enough energy to max out before reaching the point of diminishing returns. You can't add any more of this energy and expect an increase in damage output. The energy is already working as effectively as possible.

Now, if you had a spell that had an instantaneous duration, but provided for for damage over time from some lingering effect, you could possibly stack those no problem. The magical energy from the first casting would disappear right away, leaving your opponent to deal with the aftermath. Since there is no magical energy left, there's nothing to interfere with any additional energy.

[Sir Jason]

Close. It would cause 6 damage per round for 16 rounds. No save. To someone with 50 hit points or less remaining. BTW, that means leaving them at -14 unless they get semi-continuous healing, and at level 1 you would probably need an entire party of clerics to save one PC from an encounter with a CR 1 level one human wizard.

[Tor the Fallen]

Psychotic barber, please, for the love of ****, delete your long ass quote!

[Sir Jason]

Are all you people that keep complaining about screen stretch either using xp or an old version of internet explorer? Cuz i dont get any.

Also, Shhalahr Windrider, you might want to do something: your signature says that you're the president of the something rather of against the misuse of the word irony, and someone tried to pull off Power Word Irony for this spell. Please explain.

As for the actual spell, i think the two most appropriate solutions are making it deal non-lethal damage, or making it level 4 (which also solves the intense gimpy-ness of PW Distract). To the other ones, I respect your ideas, but I have to say that this spell must have been typo'ed, since it got past the editors of a formal D&D book, and thus it should be only a minor change that would fix it. Adding 'non-lethal' in front of damage in the description, or changing the level to 4, are the type of small changes that they could plausibly miss if they were even near being competent at what they're paid for.

Oh, and finally, this stacking damage thing...

"A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus."

I don't see a bonus name here. So, this would stack, I do believe.

[Tor the Fallen]

Go to the first page.

[Sir Jason]

No, I know tor, I just dont get it, and neither does some other guy who posted that he didnt know what everyone was complaining about. Dunno, maybe its cuz im using Vista... I hate to say this, but it might actually be helping with something....

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Oh, and finally, this stacking damage thing...

"A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus."

I don't see a bonus name here. So, this would stack, I do believe.
Once again: Read the rules about Combining Effects, not just stacking bonuses.

[Arbitrarity]

Nope, I'm not getting the stretch either.

Anyways.... there are 2 problems with Power Word: Pain. Firstly, it kills PC's at medium low levels. Horribly. No save. All you can do is watch as your character dies painfully over a minute.

Secondly: It's a deadly ambushing attack. If a PC sorceror or something jumps out, Power Words an abnormally tough opponent, and runs, he can probably take down that opponent.

In your average combat, the main issue is the PC killing. Ambush? Well, unless you hit and run, not working incredibly. So, if the issue is PC killing, subdual damage fixes that. Thematically, it works moderately well as well.

Modifying the spell level isn't really the best solution, as the spell isn't effective against high HP enemies, and is rather a waste at level 5.

Compare to, say, the equal level Fireball (a classic, though considered ineffective). AOE 5d6, instantly, ref for half, vs. single target average 10d6 over 10 rounds, no save. Most of the DoT damage will be wasted, and it's single target to boot. Or, say, shocking grasp. Touch attack, 5d6, no save. I'm thinking more effective, again.

This tool seems best suited, actually, to killing a party. PC's can do so much damage, this spell becomes useless at even low levels, except with tactics which prolong a battle. However, against a PC? Well, get rerolling.

I'm backing Shhalahr here.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
No mention of mental control, status effects, numerical bonuses or penalties. Just "Identical spells" at "different strengths".

Mind you, I'd houserule otherwise, partially because that section generally speaks about status effects, not damage. However, RAW, it seems clear that stacking the same spell over and over would seem to produce no effect.

[Tor the Fallen]

10d6 damage over a minute is pretty good, especially since mount is a level 1 spell.

Here, have some pain. Now try and to catch me while you die! Buahahahaha!!

[Sir Jason]

Ok, so even if we decide that it doesn't stack with itself, it can still auto-kill things with less than 50 hp, and do a number on bigger things too. In a party, against an enemy, get the fighter to bring him down to 50 and then hit it with this, and it dies in pain while you hide. Used by PCs, its definetly not overpowered as a level 4 spell though.

Making it level 4 stops the "watching your PC die horribly without being able to do anything" effect, and also means that it will only be usable at levels where tough enemies have too many hit points to be affected by it without a bit of a prelude fight to get them down to 50 hp. Except spell-casters. I can see two wizards having a duel, and both casting Sudden Maximized Power Word Pain in the first round, then dying horribly in excrutiating pain over several rounds, as the crowd laughs at their sheer supidity.

Also, even though it makes more sense fluff-wise for it to stack, I wouldn't touch it, cuz then it gets really bad. In four rounds, you've managed to get one guy taking 4d6 per round for the next 10 rounds or so. Well, not really, hell be dead long before that.... :smalltongue:

Thanks guys, I think that I'll go with switching its level with Power Word Distract. Seems like the most likely thing they would have typo'ed. Now I can get onto making a Power Word wizard.... MUHAHAHAHA!

[triforcel]

Once again: Read the rules about Combining Effects, not just stacking bonuses.

If you look at it though, Different Bonus Names, Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths, Same Effect with Differing Results, and One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant are all in italics which places them as sub topics underneath the bold Stacking Effects which states

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

So while they don't explicitly say so, it's obvious that the aforementioned subtopics only deal with spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes.