Am I understanding heat metal correctly?

[ragnorack1]

Hi, got an opportunity to play a level 20 one shot and the new UA oath of heroism paladin has made a build I've been considering a bit more effective.

Looking at going forge cleric 17/ oath of heroism 3 with the brawny feat. The idea being to use the channel divinity for advantage on strength checks, grappling the biggest threat size large or smaller (unless I have the enlarge effect on me) and casting heat metal on myself, the level 17 forge clerics fire immunity and physical damage reduction should help with keeping concentration up and minimise damage taken.
How ever I think I may of jumped the gun and let my expectations get to high after re-reading the second part of the spell. I initially thought that the enemy would have to take a constitution save or suffer disadvantage to attacks and ability checks further improving my durability and ability to sustain the grapple.
However I now realise it says that this applies to creatures holding or wearing the hot object, so I assume that I won't get that benefit from grappling them.
I just want to check if this understanding is correct?

[Evaar]

While you are correct that the spell requires wearing/holding the target in order to be impacted by the effects of the spell, if I were DM I would rule this works. The spell wasn't designed with the expectation that a fire immune character could heat itself and grapple an enemy, but it's a logical use. It's not even an overpowered use of the spell - all the need to do is break the grapple by whatever means they have available. At level 20, they should have options.

So no not RAW. I would argue it's RAI though.

[Damon_Tor]

Hi, got an opportunity to play a level 20 one shot and the new UA oath of heroism paladin has made a build I've been considering a bit more effective.

Looking at going forge cleric 17/ oath of heroism 3 with the brawny feat. The idea being to use the channel divinity for advantage on strength checks, grappling the biggest threat size large or smaller (unless I have the enlarge effect on me) and casting heat metal on myself, the level 17 forge clerics fire immunity and physical damage reduction should help with keeping concentration up and minimise damage taken.
How ever I think I may of jumped the gun and let my expectations get to high after re-reading the second part of the spell. I initially thought that the enemy would have to take a constitution save or suffer disadvantage to attacks and ability checks further improving my durability and ability to sustain the grapple.
However I now realise it says that this applies to creatures holding or wearing the hot object, so I assume that I won't get that benefit from grappling them.
I just want to check if this understanding is correct?

Line by line:


Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range.

Your armor qualifies, moving on.


You cause the object to glow red-hot. Any creature in physical contact with the object takes 2d8 fire damage when you cast the spell.

Any creature in physical contact WOULD include both you and the target of your grapple, yes. They take the damage.


Until the spell ends, you can use a Bonus Action on each of your subsequent turns to cause this damage again.

Okay, no problems so far.


If a creature is holding or wearing the object and takes the damage from it, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can.


Aha, this is where it gets tricky. The creature you are grappling is not holding or wearing the object, so it does not make the constitution save. HOWEVER, the damage is dealt regardless of the save, the save only occurs to force the creature to drop the object if possible.


If it doesn't drop the object, it has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks until the start of your next turn.

This is actually a simple if/then statement. If X did not occur, then do Y. In this case, X is "drop the item". The creature in question did not drop the item, and so it has disadvantage. There is no requirement that the creature pass or fail the save, or even have attempted the save at all, to take this penalty.

EDIT: And in your OP, you say the creature has to make a con save or suffer disadvantage, but this is actually the reverse of how it can play out. Even in a situation where the object is being held and could be dropped (a sword, for example) the FAILED save would result in the creature dropping the sword and this NOT suffering disadvantage. The PASSED save would result in the creature NOT dropping the sword and thus (potentially) suffering the disadvantage as a result. Though I'll note that a creature is free to drop an item at any time without using any sort of action to do so, which means even if they pass their save they could CHOOSE to drop the sword and thus suffer no penalty. And technically, he could drop the sword, pick it right back up again on his turn, and attack with that sword without penalty.

[ad_hoc]

A grapple is just holding a creature. You're not physically on top of them. They can do everything but move.

At level 20 you should be thinking bigger than a 2nd level spell.

You're going to be facing threats to the entire multiverse at that point. Don't rely on grappling a god.

[JackPhoenix]

If a creature is holding or wearing the object and takes the damage from it, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can.


Aha, this is where it gets tricky. The creature you are grappling is not holding or wearing the object, so it does not make the constitution save. HOWEVER, the damage is dealt regardless of the save, the save only occurs to force the creature to drop the object if possible.


If it doesn't drop the object, it has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks until the start of your next turn.

This is actually a simple if/then statement. If X did not occur, then do Y. In this case, X is "drop the item". The creature in question did not drop the item, and so it has disadvantage. There is no requirement that the creature pass or fail the save, or even have attempted the save at all, to take this penalty.

However, the second if/then statement is dependant on the FIRST if/then statement. The creature needs to both wear or hold the object and take damage before the disadvantage (and the save) comes into play. If you ignore that, you could argue that every single creature in the multiverse suffers the disadvantage any time someone uses Heat Metal

[JellyPooga]

At level 20 you should be thinking bigger than a 2nd level spell.

You're going to be facing threats to the entire multiverse at that point. Don't rely on grappling a god.

Yeah. This.

If a lvl.2 spell is your jam at lvl.20, then (sorry to say it) someone is probably doing something wrong (either your GM for giving you too easy encounters or you for not contribiting anything significant to the encounter).

[ragnorack1]

Aye its only level 2 but it up scales fairly well for gaurenteed damage and if you manage to get hold of two folks to grapple (granted this would take multiple turns) you can double the damage again. Biggest down side in my opinion is that fire resistance is common but could turn to spirit guardians when that's the case.
Interesting that a few folk would consider allowing the disadvantage to attacks and ability checks, will put it to the dm and see what he thinks.

Thanks

[mAc Chaos]

You aren't bear hugging them, so it wouldn't do anything. You'd probably need to take the Grappler feat and restrain them because that seems more like it would involve body to body contact.

Otherwise up to the DM.

[Tanarii]

The way I read it:

1) as long as they are in physical contact when you use your bonus action, they take damage. That's not necessarily the case when you are grappling them (the action should really have been called grab), but you can ask your DM. It might be ruled by them as easy to make contact long enough to use your Bonus action under those circustances.

2) you take the disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, since you did not drop the item.

[BarneyBent]

The way I read it:

1) as long as they are in physical contact when you use your bonus action, they take damage. That's not necessarily the case when you are grappling them (the action should really have been called grab), but you can ask your DM. It might be ruled by them as easy to make contact long enough to use your Bonus action under those circustances.

2) you take the disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, since you did not drop the item.

Yep. For a level 20 character this is not a good build.

[ragnorack1]

The way I read it:

1) as long as they are in physical contact when you use your bonus action, they take damage. That's not necessarily the case when you are grappling them (the action should really have been called grab), but you can ask your DM. It might be ruled by them as easy to make contact long enough to use your Bonus action under those circustances.

2) you take the disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, since you did not drop the item.

1) Even if its just a grab your still in physical contact, and gauntlets seem like a likely component of full plate, although fair point I can see how opinions could differ. But length of contact time is definitely not an issue, being as it's sustained between rounds.

2) You don't need to drop the item as you don't take fire damage due to the forge clerics fire immunity.

[Tanarii]

2) You don't need to drop the item as you don't take fire damage due to the forge clerics fire immunity.
Good call my eyes skipped right over "and takes damage from it" in that clause.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

RAW, I agree, it looks like it would damage the person you're grappling but not impose disadvantage. It also wouldn't impose disadvantage on you as long as you're immune to fire.

As a DM I might let you inflict Disadvantage if you pinned them with the Grappler feat, since that's creative, has a higher player opportunity cost, and presses a lot more metal up against them, but not from just normal grappling. And that's in houserule territory so check with your own DM.