Advancing a Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Divine Soul 1

[torrmh]

Hey guys :smallsmile:

I'm playing a human Vengeance Paladin 6/Hexblade Warlock 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1 in a PHB+1 game (so no quickened booming blade/green flame blade I'm afraid), currently in the Dungeon of the Mad Mage beneath Waterdeep (no spoilers please :D ). I will advance to level 11 before next session though, because I received enough ACP at the end of our last session, and I'm also using some downtime to catch up another level.

Stats are: STR 15 (19 with Gauntlets of Ogre Power), DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 18. Feat: Polearm Mastery. Fighting Style: Defense. Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight.
Gear of note: Shield+2, Spear +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Ring of Spell Storing, Full plate. AC 23.

I'm playing mainly as a striker/tank (and party leader/face). The other regulars in my group are: Gnome Diviner, Gnome Arcane Trickster, Tabaxi Monk (with a 2-level dip in Cleric), Druid. They are all lvl 11.

I could use some advice on what to do next, as I'm torn between a lot of different builds.

I consider the followings as some of the more interesting features:
Warlock 3 - Pact of the Chain: Gives me that sweet invisible imp familiar that can attune to my ring of spell storing
Warlock 5 - Eldritch Smite

Divine Soul 5 - Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Haste
Divine Soul 7 - Dimension Door, Death Ward, Banishment
Divine Soul 9 - Holy Weapon
Divine Soul 11 - Heal.

Fighter 2 - Dueling and Action Surge.

Paladin 11 - Improved Divine Smite and Aura of Courage, also lvl 3 Paladin spells and Haste.


Inevitably I will have to give something up. Currently I'm leaning toward Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Divine Soul 11, mainly to get the imp and quicken heal. Another option could be Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Divine Soul 9/Fighter 2. Lose 2 SP, 2 spells known and Heal. Paladin 6/Warlock5/Divine Soul 7/Fighter 2 gives me insane burst damage with the possibility of action surge and double smiting, but at the expense of lvl 5 cleric/sorcerer spells. The Paladin 11 option will take away any possibility of getting Spirit Guardians.

Any thoughts on how to take this forward?

[AHF]

I'd also consider going straight DS the rest of the way to start getting those higher level spells as fast as possible. 6 / 2 / 3 to put yourself on the quickest path to access to those key third level spells which I think would likely be the biggest boost your character can get looking forward.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Having Spirit Guardians *and* Armor of Agathys on at the same time is always amusing, though perhaps overkill. This requires some Sorcerer.

The invocation (name forgotten) that lets you pull someone toward you with EB is then especially worthwhile. That takes a bit more Warlock. Quickening that is even nicer, accounting for a bonus action.

Sentinel would then let you lock someone down on your reaction.

So a turn could be attack, bonus attack, and EB.

Anyway,

Ken

[Dork_Forge]

I'd take Warlock to 3 for the familiar and then pump Divine Sorc the rest, access to Cleric spells that you can Twin is huge (twinned Shield of Faith, Death Ward etc.), take advantage of the invisible familiar to hold concentration on some spells for you (include a Healing Word in the ring for a panic button). Just in case you weren't aware, you can't have chainlock and Eldritch Smite as it's a Bladelock invocation.

Is this an offical AL game? I didn't think AL would load you up so heavily with gear, looks like a nice haul!

[torrmh]

Thanks for your input guys! :smallsmile:

It's an AL game, but with a bit looser interpretation of the rules where gold and item rewards are concerned :smalltongue: The gauntlets were found due to a freak random roll, and the shield and spear were bought using treasure points. The ring and full plate were bought with gold that we found.

I wasn't actually aware that Eldritch Smite was a Bladelock only invocation, thanks for pointing that out! Maybe it can make things a bit easier, although those 3rd level short rest refreshing slots are still tempting.

Any thoughts on sacrificing 2 divine soul levels for 2 fighter levels to get surge and dueling? For me, losing access to heal would be the biggest loss I think.

[Dork_Forge]

Thanks for your input guys! :smallsmile:

It's an AL game, but with a bit looser interpretation of the rules where gold and item rewards are concerned :smalltongue: The gauntlets were found due to a freak random roll, and the shield and spear were bought using treasure points. The ring and full plate were bought with gold that we found.

I wasn't actually aware that Eldritch Smite was a Bladelock only invocation, thanks for pointing that out! Maybe it can make things a bit easier, although those 3rd level short rest refreshing slots are still tempting.

Any thoughts on sacrificing 2 divine soul levels for 2 fighter levels to get surge and dueling? For me, losing access to heal would be the biggest loss I think.

I wouldn't concern yourself so much with Heal to be honest, you have 30 lay on hand points, access to the Cleric list and the potential of twinning healing spells (and the option of giving healing spells to your familiar too). Action surge is a great ability (and dueling is a nice bump to DPR), but let's go back a bit first, what is your playstyle like currently?

Are you just getting in the front lines and smiting away? How much spell casting do you do (or plan to do)?
You're a Hexblade so I assume that you're using Cha for you weapon attacks?

[torrmh]

I wouldn't concern yourself so much with Heal to be honest, you have 30 lay on hand points, access to the Cleric list and the potential of twinning healing spells (and the option of giving healing spells to your familiar too). Action surge is a great ability (and dueling is a nice bump to DPR), but let's go back a bit first, what is your playstyle like currently?

Are you just getting in the front lines and smiting away? How much spell casting do you do (or plan to do)?
You're a Hexblade so I assume that you're using Cha for you weapon attacks?

I am usually on the front lines, yeah. I want to be able to cast a few spells, like Counterspell and Spirit Guardians for example. I like to have some versatility and options in combat, which is why it's nice to be able to use the Darkness/Devil Sight combo and have spells like Misty Step. Yeah, the plan was to go Hexblade to be able to use CHA for attacks, but then I randomly found the STR gauntlets, so I can also use STR now. Plan is to go to 20 CHA though, and then use CHA, since I already have that ability. Not sure I would have gone Hexblade if I had known I would get the gloves, but now that I'm here I plan to make the best of it with the imp :smallbiggrin:

Forgot to mention that I used a scroll to summon a greater steed (griffon) too, but I haven't been able to use it much down in the Undermountain.

[Dork_Forge]

Unless you want 4th level spells specifically, I'd say get Warlock to 3 (to take full advantage of a familiar with your ring) and get Sorcerer to 5. The only real incentive to go higher with Sorc in your situation is grabbing Death Ward and more Sorc points. If you're going Cha then try and sell/trade your Gauntlets for a more relevant item (prayer beads are fantastic, pearl of power etc.).

Look for spells that you can upcast with those higher slots you'll have, Aid is a great candidate for this and remember that anything with a range of self you can also have effect your Griffon. Whilst you might not be able to ride the Griffon much (you can use it on the ground as well as air though), you can essentially use it as an animal companion and have it fight with you.

The Darkness/Devil's Sigbht combo is potent, just bear in mind how it will effect your team mates (and remember if they can't see you, they likely can't cast spells on you).

[torrmh]

Dimension door is another 4th level spell in addition to death ward that I'd like to add to my repertoire.

What would you do with the remaining levels (assuming Paladin 6, Warlock 3) if you were to stop leveling Sorcerer after levels 5, 7 or 9?

[Nhorianscum]

Thanks for your input guys! :smallsmile:

It's an AL game, but with a bit looser interpretation of the rules where gold and item rewards are concerned :smalltongue: The gauntlets were found due to a freak random roll, and the shield and spear were bought using treasure points. The ring and full plate were bought with gold that we found.

I wasn't actually aware that Eldritch Smite was a Bladelock only invocation, thanks for pointing that out! Maybe it can make things a bit easier, although those 3rd level short rest refreshing slots are still tempting.

Any thoughts on sacrificing 2 divine soul levels for 2 fighter levels to get surge and dueling? For me, losing access to heal would be the biggest loss I think.

I really struggle to justify dropping DS below 12 here. Lock 3 and fighter 2 are nice but there is nothing these offer that beats out that 8th level spell slot fueled by 1,2,3 metamagics and cherrypicked spells from two of the best lists in the game. (We can drop almost all of our sorc spells known into 3-6 due to our low level paladin/hex bloat so double 6ths is viable here)

Count em lads 1,2,3 castings of metamagic boosted mass suggestion while buffed hero's feast +extended 8th level aid.

Familiar is nice, surge is nice, tier 3+casting is degenerate.

If the short rest slots seem tempting... let's count em up, this is a +6 boost to our Font battery on a 2 rest day. Sorc 2 gives 7(3+3+1) at the start of the day. It's unambiguously better. Sorc 3 kicks our font engine over and allows us to start making those 2nd level slots, and gives metamagic. From there we just skyrocket.

Worried about nova with this setup? Don't be 6th/7th/8th inflict under Hexcurse+advantage hits for a nice clean 60ish-70ish average on a bonus action and is one of our weaker options. (61 normal 116 crit average at 8th)
--------------

What's this talk of darkness/Sight when we can just twin or quicken greater invis and have our CD to boot? That sounds like tier 1 scrub strats in tier 4.

[torrmh]

I really struggle to justify dropping DS below 12 here. Lock 3 and fighter 2 are nice but there is nothing these offer that beats out that 8th level spell slot fueled by 1,2,3 metamagics and cherrypicked spells from two of the best lists in the game. (We can drop almost all of our sorc spells known into 3-6 due to our low level paladin/hex bloat so double 6ths is viable here)

Count em lads 1,2,3 castings of metamagic boosted mass suggestion while buffed hero's feast +extended 8th level aid.

Familiar is nice, surge is nice, tier 3+casting is degenerate.

If the short rest slots seem tempting... let's count em up, this is a +6 boost to our Font battery on a 2 rest day. Sorc 2 gives 7(3+3+1) at the start of the day. It's unambiguously better. Sorc 3 kicks our font engine over and allows us to start making those 2nd level slots, and gives metamagic. From there we just skyrocket.

Worried about nova with this setup? Don't be 6th/7th/8th inflict under Hexcurse+advantage hits for a nice clean 60ish-70ish average on a bonus action and is one of our weaker options. (61 normal 116 crit average at 8th)
--------------

What's this talk of darkness/Sight when we can just twin or quicken greater invis and have our CD to boot? That sounds like tier 1 scrub strats in tier 4.

Hey and thanks for your input :smallsmile:

OK, so let's say it's between Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Divine Soul 12 and Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Divine Soul 11 for the sake of argument.

Divine Soul 12 gives us an ASI, no extra spells known (but we can replace a lower level spell with a level 6 spell if we want), 1 SP and one 8th-level slot.

Warlock 3 gives us the invisible imp that among other things can attune to my ring of spell storing and concentrate on Haste or another spell or be a lifeguard with Healing Word, as well as all the utility it can offer as an invisible scout. 1 spell known, lvl 2 short rest slots instead of lvl 1.

I'd love the extra ASI and an 8th-level slot, but is it really better than being able to have a "second concentration spell" active in addition to the utility options?

What spells would you recommend?

And btw I think the Darkness/Devil Sight combo can serve a purpose also in later game. I'm a human, which means that 120 feet darkvision isn't a waste of invocation at all, especially now that we're in the Undermountain and possibly venturing out into the Underdark later. The Darkness spell has a 10 minute duration instead of 1 minute, and as opposed to Greater Invisibility it can effectively be turned on an off if you cast it on an object. And it's a 2nd level slot instead of a 4th level slot. So I really don't think Greater Invisibility renders Darkness obsolete.

[Nhorianscum]

Hey and thanks for your input :smallsmile:

OK, so let's say it's between Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Divine Soul 12 and Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Divine Soul 11 for the sake of argument.

Divine Soul 12 gives us an ASI, no extra spells known (but we can replace a lower level spell with a level 6 spell if we want), 1 SP and one 8th-level slot.

Warlock 3 gives us the invisible imp that among other things can attune to my ring of spell storing and concentrate on Haste or another spell or be a lifeguard with Healing Word, as well as all the utility it can offer as an invisible scout. 1 spell known, lvl 2 short rest slots instead of lvl 1.

I'd love the extra ASI and an 8th-level slot, but is it really better than being able to have a "second concentration spell" active in addition to the utility options?

What spells would you recommend?

And btw I think the Darkness/Devil Sight combo can serve a purpose also in later game. I'm a human, which means that 120 feet darkvision isn't a waste of invocation at all, especially now that we're in the Undermountain and possibly venturing out into the Underdark later. The Darkness spell has a 10 minute duration instead of 1 minute, and as opposed to Greater Invisibility it can effectively be turned on an off if you cast it on an object. And it's a 2nd level slot instead of a 4th level slot. So I really don't think Greater Invisibility renders Darkness obsolete.

Yes, you are a sorcerer, having 2 concentration spells up at once is already your bag. If you want more Planar Binding is generally better than find familiar. Just by a little bit. Until then give the ring to a find steed-Mastif? This is not imp excusive.

Counterpoint, Twinned Greater invis. We can do this for 8 (3 times)-10 SP. Darkness costs 2-3. By the time we can twin Ginvis here we have 54 points to toss around every day. We can do this every, single, fight.

Other counterpoint. DS 2 gives 2 3rd level slots and a 1st level slot. 3rd level slots smite harder than 2nd level slots

As for scouting. Imp < Just turn the rouge invisible < actual scouting spells (Looking at you entire divinations school)

Goggles of the night do not require attunment.

Super TL:DR; While some on this forum would disagree with the statement I feel that casting leveled spells is a good thing. Especially as a Sorc who gets more/day than even warlock does without the +3 CL boost from paladin. Who needs efficiency? Not the guy with an 8th level slot.

At the end of the day do what's fun for you.

[Dork_Forge]

Dimension door is another 4th level spell in addition to death ward that I'd like to add to my repertoire.

What would you do with the remaining levels (assuming Paladin 6, Warlock 3) if you were to stop leveling Sorcerer after levels 5, 7 or 9?

I'd probably round it out to ASI levels, so 8 Paladin, 4 Warlock and 8 Sorc, that'd leave you with: 6th level slots (2nd level SR recharge slots), 4th level Sorc spells, 40 lay on hands and the relentless avenger ability (eh on it's own, but another thing in your tool box).

[torrmh]

Yes, you are a sorcerer, having 2 concentration spells up at once is already your bag. If you want more Planar Binding is generally better than find familiar. Just by a little bit. Until then give the ring to a find steed-Mastif?

Counterpoint, Twinned Greater invis.

Other counterpoint. DS 2 gives 2 3rd level slots and a 1st level slot. 3rd level slots smite harder than 2nd level slots

As for scouting. Imp < Just turn the rouge invisible < actual scouting spells (Looking at you entire divinations school)

In short. Stop delaying slot progression on a paladin. Arcane trickers are about to freaking lap you on spell progression.

I already have a Griffon greater steed, maybe he can use the ring, hehe... :smallcool:

[torrmh]

I'd probably round it out to ASI levels, so 8 Paladin, 4 Warlock and 8 Sorc, that'd leave you with: 6th level slots (2nd level SR recharge slots), 4th level Sorc spells, 40 lay on hands and the relentless avenger ability (eh on it's own, but another thing in your tool box).

The relentless avenger ability is really disappointing, especially when compared to the Ancients level 7 feature... Not sure what feats I'd grab if I were to round it out to ASI levels either. I need one to max CHA, and another one for Warcaster/Res Con and maybe one for Lucky

[Nhorianscum]

I already have a Griffon greater steed, maybe he can use the ring, hehe... :smallcool:

Yuppers.

Another note on Ginvis vs darkness. Our full nova at Sorc7 is Smite4+Smite4+Smite4+Inflict/MM5 under twinned haste + vow + hexcurse. This eats a whopping 33 points of gas no synth. 54-33 = 21, we can either twin Ginvis twice or darkness 7 times. We're just popping vow 3/day (one on our nova) so both darkness and twinning a much stronger spell give the *exact same result* in terms of efficiency when we want that. Normally we'll just blow these points on better uses than advantage anywho so... yeah being able to drop a 5th level SG trumps... darkness lol. We ain't wasting concentration on that.

Edit. Lost my mind. Cost of nova is 27 but burns all preexisting 4ths, 1 5th, 1 3rd. Woops.

[Dork_Forge]

The relentless avenger ability is really disappointing, especially when compared to the Ancients level 7 feature... Not sure what feats I'd grab if I were to round it out to ASI levels either. I need one to max CHA, and another one for Warcaster/Res Con and maybe one for Lucky

Yeah it's diappointing it was just the only thing of note you got from the Pal levels besies the ASI and extra lay on hands. At the moment you really need Warcaster, especially if you plan to pass your ring to someone else, RAW you can't even cast Shield to defend yourself whilst holding a spear and shield. I'd go for Warcaster>pump Cha>Tough/pump Con, resilient is nice but you have an even Con score and already have your Aura and Con mod to Conc saves.