Tortles live HOW LONG??

[SeasideDruid]

I love the Tortles. They are charming and have fun mechanics to them and are the friendliest tribal folk you'll ever meet.

I just have two problems/questions with them and in WotC's decision making.

First is their age. 50. They only live...to 50. There are real life turtles that live way longer than that! I feel it's kinda a miss of WotC's part to make them long lived with turtles already being a symbol of longevity. Now I've read forums about this very topic and people argue that its because Tortles aren't Turtles. Turtles live as long as they do because of their slow metabolism in movement, where as Tortles...don't. And I can see the reasoning in that...

...so then tell me why a 3ft tall, gold nabbing, short stacked dragon-rat child gets to live to 120??? Why do Kobolds get to live longer than a humanoid Turtle??

The second is not as big of a problem but rather a nick pick, but the claw attack. A claw attack? Yeah sure. Remember last summer you were hiking the trail and friggin' turtle leaped forth and clawed you in the shins. Nah. Didn't happen.

Anyways this is more my opinion but i'll take any insight on this.
Have a good day...

[RickAllison]

The thing to remember is that the tortles aren't really meant to be representative of turtles, they are an update of a 2e race. Notably for the 2e version, their age worked very differently. 2e had it where after a tortle passed on their genetic material (usually around 50), they would die a relatively short time after. 5e changed that so instead it's when they near the end of their lifespan that the tortles are called back to reproduce. Not that this makes much sense.

So I would chalk that up to a screw-up. The Tortles have until they decide to satisfy their biological urges, then they are on a clock. If Oogway was a Tortle, that would mean he had finally gotten some in the past year.

[Shabbazar]

They need a vorpal snapping bite attack. That would be badass.

Age? Yeah, I agree. You're gonna have to house rule that one I suppose, but I'd sure change it.

[dragoeniex]

In all fairness, the race also doesn't have a speed of 10 ft. Trade-offs?

[nickl_2000]

It does seem a bit silly, but how often have you had a campaign to a year, much less 30 years.

[Contrast]

It does seem a bit silly, but how often have you had a campaign to a year, much less 30 years.

Just make sure you never fight a ghost :smallbiggrin:

[stoutstien]

Just make sure you never fight a ghost :smallbiggrin:

Or be at wild magic sorcerer. Game over man.

[ad_hoc]

Tortles are tortoises not turtles.

https://i.imgur.com/YheDzIj.png

[JackPhoenix]

Tortles are tortles. Just because they kinda look like turtles (or tortoises, whatever) doesn't mean they are. Orcs (japanese orcs in particular) look kinda porcine, but that doesn't make them pigs. Just like tabaxi aren't cats, centaurs aren't horses and minotaurs aren't cows.

[Jerrykhor]

Or be at wild magic sorcerer. Game over man.

I actually rolled that thing which de-aged me twice, turned me from an adult into a kid.

[Slipperychicken]

Perhaps Mike Mearls had a turtle that died young, and he just wants to deny responsibility by pretending that's how long turtles live now

Also, it's a crime to have a turtle race with a 30ft movement speed. There's no excuse for that whatsoever. Especially since freaking halflings and dwarves get 25. They could at minimum have put that on for flavor.

[Arkhios]

Well, for one, they're not turtles.

Secondly, they're not Tortollan either (Warcraft race that lives presumably over 10 000 years, if not longer).

Sure, they might look like your friendly neighbourhood sewer turtleboy quartet, but they're still their own race. There's no reason why they should have a long lifespan, any more than they do have a relatively short one. They're not pet-turtles-mutated-by-The-Ooze-after-being-in-contact-with-a-human –turtles in their teens, either.
They're tortles.

But if you look at it from a perspective that has absolutely no place in D&D (a fantasy game) — biology.
They walk on two legs, instead of four, unlike turtles.
Plus they move a lot faster on ground than their longlived "cousins" from Galapagos Islands.
That shell on their backs is certainly heavy. Try carrying a weight like that on just two legs for decades, and come tell us how're your joints not hurting after some time. And not just their legs. It takes a toll on the very motor that runs the machine — the heart. Extended periods of time of exerting yourself beyond what's healthy (which degrades as you grow older) wears down the heart, eventually leading to death. Galapagos tortoises live a slow and peaceful life, safe from most outside threats inside their shells if need be. I'd argue that that slow pace of their lives has something to do with their lifespans.

Also, you compared tortle to kobolds.
Remember, Kobolds are a minor offshoot of dragons. Dragons are virtually immortal, even compared to Galapagos Tortoises. It's little wonder why, even the most meager dragon's cousins live longer than most mortals.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, for one, they're not turtles.

"Tortle" is literally just a variant of "Turtle." Also it's fantasy, things like anthropomorphic animals are supposed to have archetypal traits of the things they symbolize. Birdmen fly or mimic, fishmen swim, bull-men ram people headfirst with their horns, and turtles should be slow.

This is a game that doesn't even model the lasting effect of concussions, so the idea of them taking cardiovascular strain into account for turtle-men, while giants prance about immortal, strains credibility to breaking. The more plausible explanation is that they've simply failed to deliver on basic traits of these anthropomorphic animals.

[Arkhios]

"Tortle" is literally just a variant of "Turtle." Also it's fantasy, things like anthropomorphic animals are supposed to have archetypal traits of the things they symbolize. Birdmen fly or mimic, fishmen swim, bull-men ram people headfirst with their horns, and turtles should be slow.

Show me the rule that says so. Until then, my argument is just as valid as the rest so far. :smallamused:

In other words, your opinion doesn't qualify as a rule. Sorry.

Also, did you even read what I said before all that biology lesson? I acknowledged it (=biology) has absolutely no place in D&D.

[JackPhoenix]

"Tortle" is literally just a variant of "Turtle." Also it's fantasy, things like anthropomorphic animals are supposed to have archetypal traits of the things they symbolize. Birdmen fly or mimic, fishmen swim, bull-men ram people headfirst with their horns, and turtles should be slow.

Or a variant of "tortilla". Clearly, they should be flat and delicious.

[NNescio]

Or a variant of "tortilla". Clearly, they should be flat and delicious.

All Tortles are now Touhou-style 'DFC' kappas.

[nickl_2000]

Or a variant of "tortilla". Clearly, they should be flat and delicious.

Turtle or tortilla, either way they make good soup

[Sigreid]

If you're the DM, make it whatever you want.

[Wizard_Lizard]

such is the peril of all of the cool races, Dragonborn, Half-orcs, goblins...
their only hope is to reach lvl20 and get the immortality boon...

[darknite]

I always thought their early mortality was linked to their reproductive cycle.

[Willie the Duck]

The thing to remember is that the tortles aren't really meant to be representative of turtles, they are an update of a 2e race. Notably for the 2e version, their age worked very differently. 2e had it where after a tortle passed on their genetic material (usually around 50), they would die a relatively short time after. 5e changed that so instead it's when they near the end of their lifespan that the tortles are called back to reproduce. Not that this makes much sense.

So I would chalk that up to a screw-up. The Tortles have until they decide to satisfy their biological urges, then they are on a clock. If Oogway was a Tortle, that would mean he had finally gotten some in the past year.

Well, BECMI initially, but yes 2e Tortles had the whole mate-and-die thing going on. Kind of like Zoidberg on Futurama. I suspect that writers are thinking of octopi, although there are plenty of species in nature where this is the case.


Remember, Kobolds are a minor offshoot of dragons. Dragons are virtually immortal, even compared to Galapagos Tortoises. It's little wonder why, even the most meager dragon's cousins live longer than most mortals.

Kobolds do bring up a good point. In TSR-era D&D, as mentioned above*, almost all the non-human races had subhuman lifespans. Kobolds included (of course the kobolds as dragon cousins thing hadn't yet been codified as canon). So, although the specifics of how/why of tortle lifespan are surprising, that they are below human lifespans is pretty much the norm for BECMI/AD&D races only occasionally meant to be played by players.
*although 2e actually did put a few more of them in the half-elf-like 'more than humans, but not that much more' range.


Show me the rule that says so. Until then, my argument is just as valid as the rest so far. :smallamused:

In other words, your opinion doesn't qualify as a rule. Sorry.

Arkhios, disappointment with the official rulings/having a problem with WotC's decision making (which no one has disputed that they have the right to do so) is the premise of this thread. Saying "Show me the rule that says so" is a nonsequitor to that premise. Nor did SlipperyChicken say that your argument was 'invalid,' he responded with an explanation on how he felt things were supposed to be, which again is the premise of this thread.

[Segev]

Okay, unless these are just attempts to salve the OP's discomfort with some suggested ways to reconcile it, all these "they're not turtles, so obviously you shouldn't expect them to be like them!" arguments fall pretty darned flat.

Gnolls have clear hyena influence in their societal design (especially the emphasis on females being larger and the dominant sex). Tabaxi, despite "not being cats," clearly have "cat-like" in the back of the mind of the designer if you look at their mechanics. Kobolds live a long time because they're related to dragons. (They probably didn't live nearly so long when they were "dog-like" in 1e and 2e.)

Tortles are painfully obviously "turtle people." So the argument "they're not turtles" is automatically going to fail to hold a lot of water as a reason why they have a counter-intuitive racial trait when compared to RL tortoises and turtles.

No, I have no idea why they have such a short lifespan; I would have guessed they lived at least as long as elves if I hadn't read this thread.

Maybe house rule it so that 50 is when they hit "venerable," and then they slow down immensely, becoming more stolid, and typically retire somewhere for the next several hundred years?

[stoutstien]

Okay, unless these are just attempts to salve the OP's discomfort with some suggested ways to reconcile it, all these "they're not turtles, so obviously you shouldn't expect them to be like them!" arguments fall pretty darned flat.

Gnolls have clear hyena influence in their societal design (especially the emphasis on females being larger and the dominant sex). Tabaxi, despite "not being cats," clearly have "cat-like" in the back of the mind of the designer if you look at their mechanics. Kobolds live a long time because they're related to dragons. (They probably didn't live nearly so long when they were "dog-like" in 1e and 2e.)

Tortles are painfully obviously "turtle people." So the argument "they're not turtles" is automatically going to fail to hold a lot of water as a reason why they have a counter-intuitive racial trait when compared to RL tortoises and turtles.

No, I have no idea why they have such a short lifespan; I would have guessed they lived at least as long as elves if I hadn't read this thread.

Maybe house rule it so that 50 is when they hit "venerable," and then they slow down immensely, becoming more stolid, and typically retire somewhere for the next several hundred years?

I just added a 0.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Tortles are tortoises not turtles.

https://i.imgur.com/YheDzIj.png



What do you mean, I'm not helping? :smallmad:

(No one else picked up on the quote? :smalltongue: )

[Temperjoke]

On the subject of tortles, I'm digging the looks of the evil tortle that aids Arkhan in Descent Into Avernus.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/08/08/joe-manganiello-designs-an-evil-tortle-for-dungeons-dragons/

[Teaguethebean]

I think it was on gigers but I read they only live around 50 years

[Imbalance]

Don't think about their age in terms of years:

"I live my life a quarter mile at a time. Nothing else matters: not the dungeon, not the tavern, not my party and all their metagaming. For those twenty-two dash actions or less, I'm free."
~Dom Tortletto, rogue, vehicle (land) expert, philosopher

[Fable Wright]

Tortles lived for a thousand years, exactly. No estimates, no guesses, just 1000 years to the second from their date of hatching.

But something is wrong with the new generation. Just like that, a bizarre generation gap came up, and the new generation have only 50 years to live, again down to the second. And no one knows why. The elders are slowly getting to the bottom of this, and seek to undo the Tortle Curse.

Now it's a plot point. :smalltongue:

[micahaphone]

Maybe the devs got tired of every race and their uncle being long lived, and decided to spice things up, subvert an expectation. Explore this in- character! Does your tortle PC learn that tortoises live 6x longer than they do? How do they feel about that? Are they interested in living longer?

[Segev]

Maybe the devs got tired of every race and their uncle being long lived, and decided to spice things up, subvert an expectation. Explore this in- character! Does your tortle PC learn that tortoises live 6x longer than they do? How do they feel about that? Are they interested in living longer?

Subverting expectations in a way that actually is worthwhile and adds interest takes a lot more work than "haha this is the opposite of what you would have expected."

It takes build up. It takes exploring the reasons for the expectations. It takes demonstrating why the subversion thereof makes sense, and perhaps calls into contrast the expected result.

Now, you COULD build a character around the notion you suggested, micahaphone, but it doesn't mean "maybe they got tired of it and wanted a subversion" is a good reason for such a design choice. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's actively a bad one.

[Arkhios]

Personally I think that the whole Tortle Package is a half-arsed attempt to appeal to the Extra Life children care community. While the intention is commendable, they could've put a bit more effort into it, before releasing it. Afterwards all they can do is to either shrug and say "sorry, my bad" or come up with haphazard excuses.

You may call me cynical, but I really doubt they put as much effort into it as with their other products before or since then.

[Segev]

Personally I think that the whole Tortle Package is a half-arsed attempt to appeal to the Extra Life children care community. While the intention is commendable, they could've put a bit more effort into it, before releasing it. Afterwards all they can do is to either shrug and say "sorry, my bad" or come up with haphazard excuses.

You may call me cynical, but I really doubt they put as much effort into it as with their other products before or since then.

I have no idea what you're referring to. How is this an appeal to that community?

And, yes, there are signs that WotC has at least some writing staff who make additions or (in cases of classics being updated) changes just for the sake of some sort of social statement. It largely won't impact the game to run with it if you like it, or ignore it and change it (back) if you find it jarring or otherwise out of place.

But I don't know how tortles manage to be such a thing. Nor what this "Extra Life community" is. c_c

[Slipperychicken]

I have no idea what you're referring to. How is this an appeal to that community?

It's a children's charity stream, and they wrote the Tortle race specially for it because there was some turtle-themed game or other being played that year.

https://dnd.wizards.com/extralife2017



As a further bonus, Chris Perkins and the rest of the D&D team have specially created tortles as a playable race available at the Dungeon Masters Guild, with proceeds directing benefiting Extra Life/Children’s Hospitals. (If you are unfamiliar with tortles, they are a race of anthropomorphic turtles that have appeared in previous editions of the game.) This material will also include an adventure location and a few added monsters as well!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

What good is a ninja turtle ones it's no longer a teenager anyway?

[Segev]

It's a children's charity stream, and they wrote the Tortle race specially for it because there was some turtle-themed game or other being played that year.

https://dnd.wizards.com/extralife2017Ahh. That's pretty cool. Still not sure what that has to do with making them live only 50 years, but....


What good is a ninja turtle ones it's no longer a teenager anyway?This is, sadly, the best argument for a short lifespan I've seen. That said, it's also an argument for them to only live to be 20.

[Arkhios]

Still not sure what that has to do with making them live only 50 years, but....

It's a hunch (a gut-feeling, an immediate or basic feeling or reaction without a logical rationale), that they didn't pay attention and/or put effort to detail as much as they probably should have with the Tortle package, including the age.

[DerConqueror]

Fifty years is a perfectly normal lifespan for a real-world turtle and is as long or longer than the typical life expectancy for plenty of species. The fact that some species can live longer does not mean they all do.

Meanwhile, real elephants don't live for hundreds of years like Loxodons do, so it is not like the Tortles are a deviation from some otherwise set pattern of always matching ages of real creatures to their associated D&D races.

[Sigreid]

I think lifespans are more or less arbitrary and not expected to come up very often.

[Tharkun]

In my home game they live 350 years.