Hunger of Hadar vs Spirit Guardians [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Citadel97501

2019-09-30, 06:03 PM

Yes Hunger of Hadar (HoH) is worse than Spirit Guardians in 90% of cases likely due to Spirit Guardians being likely overpowered. The only cases where I think HoH might be better would be either in a tunnel up to 40' wide, with a group designed around pushing or shoving monsters and even in that case having both is incredibly useful (Group tactics of Druid & Warlock are a blast pun intended). The other option would be a group with multiple Warlocks who can see through magical darkness with Devil's Sight, they can continuosly cast at enemies stuck inside it.

Oh and a note they are on different casters lists, which means that the Hunger of Hadar is designed around being cast once per encounter unlike Spirit Guardians, SG is also a bit smaller which can make it more difficult to defend your party.

clash

2019-09-30, 06:07 PM

Hunger of hadar has 150ft range which is huge over the essentially melee range. It has a larger radius. Deals essentially the same damage and all creatures within are blinded with no save making it a much better control spell.

Mieko

2019-09-30, 06:15 PM

SpanielBear

2019-09-30, 07:30 PM

Don’t forget Hunger of Hadar is difficult terrain...

Because I did last session, and I’m still kicking myself.

JackPhoenix

2019-09-30, 08:41 PM

Enemies can run out of Hunger of Hadar's area though, even if blinded - just run straight into one direction. It also doesn't help your defensive, it's likely gonna be less damage in play, and enemies at least in my group usually go into melee with my group's characters, and the group with their enemies.
But feck it, my planar arcanist githyanki lore bard might just take Hunger of Hadar for the fluff, opening a gate to beyond the stars is amazingly alien.

HoH also belongs to a class that has easy time punting creatures back inside once they leave, and that can see through magic darkness. A creature with 30' of movement standing in the center of HoH has to Dash to get out, meaning they are unable to attack or do other things. Being blinded impose disadvantage on attacks from inside, in case the victim tries to shoot out of HoH, and disables a lot of spells, offensive and otherwise (you can't Misty Step out if you're blind).

MaxWilson

2019-09-30, 08:47 PM

Lore bard :smallbiggrin:
I tried to explain with the range self rule, they wouldn't get it.
So...everybody kinda agrees that Hunger of Hadar is worse in every aspect I guess?

No. Hunger of Hadar can produce Darkness, which to PCs with the Alert feat (or Blindsight) means your enemies have disadvantage to hit you. It also helps avoid opportunity attacks.

I'm not saying Hunger of Hadar is good BTW, just that it's not worse in every respect.

Aside: IMO Spirit Guardians is overrated. You have to be right there in the middle of combat in order to do anything with it, and depending on how the DM reads the spell it can vary widely in effectiveness (15' from your center of mass = two ranks of enemies surrounding your square, which is pretty small in anything but a dungeon crawl and basically forces you to be within reach of enemies, but 15' from the edge of your square = three ranks of enemies surrounding your square, which is still small but easier to work with and gives you at least a little benefit from the movement reduction aspects). Its damage is mediocre, although the no-friendly-fire aspect is good.

Overall I'd rather have either Spike Growth or Careful Web/Evard's Black Tentacles than either Spirit Guardians or Hunger of Hadar.

Jerrykhor

2019-09-30, 09:19 PM

Heya,
How can I show that to a DM that thinks it is fixed on a point?

I mean he is not wrong, but the fixed point is the caster himself.

BarneyBent

2019-09-30, 09:37 PM

No. Hunger of Hadar can produce Darkness, which to PCs with the Alert feat (or Blindsight) means your enemies have disadvantage to hit you. It also helps avoid opportunity attacks.

I'm not saying Hunger of Hadar is good BTW, just that it's not worse in every respect.

Aside: IMO Spirit Guardians is overrated. You have to be right there in the middle of combat in order to do anything with it, and depending on how the DM reads the spell it can vary widely in effectiveness (15' from your center of mass = two ranks of enemies surrounding your square, which is pretty small in anything but a dungeon crawl and basically forces you to be within reach of enemies, but 15' from the edge of your square = three ranks of enemies surrounding your square, which is still small but easier to work with and gives you at least a little benefit from the movement reduction aspects). Its damage is mediocre, although the no-friendly-fire aspect is good.

Overall I'd rather have either Spike Growth or Careful Web/Evard's Black Tentacles than either Spirit Guardians or Hunger of Hadar.

Point of note: Spirit Guardians says nothing about a sphere. It says spirits flit within 15 feet of you.

If you are playing on a grid, then “15 feet of you” is clear. If you can melee attack a square, that’s within 5 feet. If you can melee attack a square with a reach weapon, that’s 10 feet. If you can melee attack a square with a reach weapon as a bugbear, that’s within 15 feet.

If you are not playing with a grid, then it’s much simpler, you can still fit three ranks of enemies without worrying about squares.

Basically, the argument that Spirit Guardians might only effect two ranks of enemies is a poor one. A DM is of course free to rule that way, but it would be a pretty rubbish call and I would roll up a Glaive-wielding Bugbear Cleric just to prove the point.

Also, you seriously under-estimate the value of a) not targeting your allies, b) it moving with you automatically, and c) it not obstructing your allies’ vision. Hunger of Hadar and other spells you’ve mentioned have more situational value, sure, but it’s pretty much NEVER a bad time to cast Spirit Guardians provided you’ve got a few enemies to take down. Way more versatile.

And being in the thick of things isn’t a problem when you’re a Cleric - for a good chunk of subclasses it’s actually your job. Yes, less useful on a Divine Soul Sorcerer or Lore Bard, though funnily enough if you throw 2 levels of Paladin on there (already a fantastic multiclass) the spell becomes arguably better than on the standard Cleric.

Chronos

2019-10-01, 06:12 AM

One other point: Spirit Guardians is designed for a class with good armor proficiencies (often heavy plus shield). It's one thing to cast a concentration spell that requires you to be right next to enemies when you've got a 21 AC. It's another when you've got a 17.

Mieko

2019-10-01, 10:05 AM

I see the point with Spirit Guardians being made with clerics in mind and HoH for warlocks, humm. Less ideal for a lore bard, even though I have medium armor proficiency (no shield though).
Mostly my character can hide directly behind the tankier members of the group, the enemies being blocked like at a football game, so Spirit Guardians would work well. HoH on the other hand would prevent my teammates from attacking the caught enemies, and my teammates love to charge headfirst into battle. There's rarely situations where locking a few enemies away could be done well, and the sound part of HoH scares me: That has been a problem with Thunderclap and the likes of, before. That's also a bad thing on HoH I'd argue.

Evard's Black Tentacle, as a 4th level spell, can't be learned via the lore bard lvl 6 magical secrets feature, unfortunately.
And about the standing in the midst of battle part, I could as well again take a 1 lvl cleric dip for shield and heavy armor, but usually people have a problem with me doing that on arcane casters :smallmad:

Rukelnikov

2019-10-01, 10:40 AM

As many have said HoH is more situational, but its situationality has not been fully expressed here I think.

Its a pretty singular spell that, for instance, the obscuring effect from HoH is unlike many others, it doesn't create a zone of darkness but of blackness, and note that it doesn't have the line of "creatures with darkvision cannot see into it" because it doesn't need it, its not darkness its blackness, you can only see black, and Devil's Sight won't help either. Also, it won't be dispelled by light producing higher level spells, since its not darkness, and those spells cant illuminate it, so, in a way, its the ultimate area obscuring spell.

Also, by RAW, "creatures fully within the area are blinded", period, its not "are considered blinded" and it has no "until they leave the spell area" or "until the beginning of their next turn" or "until the spell ends", nothing, by RAW, if a creature is fully within the spell area, they are blinded, like if they had been affected by the Blinding Sickness of Contagion. This is clearly not the intent, and not how we played it at my table though.

Finally, HoH is not a point in space you can see, I used it many to create darkness inside a room we had previously scouted (invis Imp), often being in a different building or above/below ground, making it very difficult for enemies to know wth is happening.

So IMO, HoH and Spirit Guardians are completely different spells, so the comparison makes no sense, HoH is not a spell you take for the damage, its a zoning tool, it has more in common with Darkness than with SG.

Vogie

2019-10-01, 12:14 PM

They're completely different spells. The only similarity is that both 3rd level spells creating an area of difficult terrain

Spirit Guardians:

Surrounds you, which requires you to be in the fray, moving toward your enemies. Incentivizes your enemies to move away from you
Deals 3d8, with a save for half.
Scales with level
Lasts 10 minutes

Hunger of Hadar:

Is completely ranged and stationary
Deals 2d6, then another 2d6 unless they save
Blinds all inside the zone, even countering darkvision
Incentivizes you to keep the targets in the zone with other features & spells
Does not scale with level
Lasts only a minute

Zalabim

2019-10-01, 10:31 PM

One weirdness with Spirit Guardians is that it doesn't count as difficult terrain. Instead, any affected creature has their speed halved while in the area. This effectively means that any creature coming at you is traveling like they are half their speed farther away from you than they really are. Going in the opposite direction though, Spirit Guardians poses less hindrance to creatures that are leaving its area. Their speed returns to normal once they're outside. So a creature with 40' speed can run 40' away from you but can only close to melee range with you if they're just 20' away to start. Stacking this effect with difficult terrain can make the area extremely hard for enemies to move in.

Tanarii

2019-10-01, 11:34 PM

On the latter point, the spell description literally says the spirits "flit about you" and says the range is "Self (15 foot radius)."
(quote just for reference)

Point of note: Spirit Guardians says nothing about a sphere. It says spirits flit within 15 feet of you.15ft radius is 15ft radius. Not 17.5ft radius. It's a sphere 30ft diameter.

Finally, HoH is not a point in space you can see, I used it many to create darkness inside a room we had previously scouted (invis Imp), often being in a different building or above/below ground, making it very difficult for enemies to know wth is happening.All spells require a clear path to the target point unless they say otherwise.

BarneyBent

2019-10-01, 11:55 PM

(quote just for reference)
15ft radius is 15ft radius. Not 17.5ft radius. It's a sphere 30ft diameter.

A distance of 15 ft can fit three ranks of (Medium-sized) enemies in it. A grid (which is a variant rule, btw) artificially “pixelates” this and will distort the shape that a 15ft radius makes, but your argument essentially equates to “you have to be in the same square to count as within 5ft” which is just plain ridiculous.

Mieko

2019-10-02, 12:14 AM

I've never seen it played differently than the character's own 5ft square being ignored and the radius being one 5ft square per 5ft radius past the own square.
So spirit guardians would be [ ][ ][ ][X][ ][ ][ ] in every direction.
Also I think I'll actually go with Hunger of Hadar, I believe Spirit Guardians would be stronger the way my group plays but HoH is just the perfect fluff, excactly the planar arcana my character is all about. And I'm not the best damage dealer anyway, we have a wizard and a paladin and I suspect the ridiculous damage the eldritch knight does is cheated anyway.

MaxWilson

2019-10-02, 01:13 AM

I've never seen it played differently than the character's own 5ft square being ignored and the radius being one 5ft square per 5ft radius past the own square.
So spirit guardians would be [ ][ ][ ][X][ ][ ][ ] in every direction.

That makes it a 35' diameter though, which is 5' too big.

Probably the fair thing to do, if you're playing on a grid, is to make it cover 3 squares in one direction and 2 in the other. Alternately, roll a 50% chance for the creatures on the edges to see whether the spell's area includes their center of mass or not.

It's an awkward spell.

So a creature with 40' speed can run 40' away from you but can only close to melee range with you if they're just 20' away to start. Stacking this effect with difficult terrain can make the area extremely hard for enemies to move in.

25', surely? 30' if they have 10' reach. I'm not just nitpicking--this is one of the things that makes the spell harder to use in practice than it seems at first on paper, especially if you want to use it to shield other PCs from attack.

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 01:29 AM

That makes it a 35' diameter though, which is 5' too big.

Probably the fair thing to do, if you're playing on a grid, is to make it cover 3 squares in one direction and 2 in the other. Alternately, roll a 50% chance for the creatures on the edges to see whether the spell's area includes their center of mass or not.

It's an awkward spell.

An enemy 15 ft away from you is 3 squares away from you on a grid. Therefore, they are within range of the spell. It’s that simple.

Zalabim

2019-10-02, 01:41 AM

25', surely? 30' if they have 10' reach.
Depends on if you're counting their distance from melee range or their distance from the caster's square. Between caster C and monster M, when (CM) each is within 5' of the other, but there is no space between them. When (CXXXXM) there's four squares, 20', between them, but each one is within 25' of the other. Adding the edge of spirit guardians G, because it is halving speed and not difficult terrain in the area, either (CXGXXM) or (CXXGXM) will leave M using up 20' of movement and having 20' speed once they close to within 5'.

I don't see a problem with extending spirit guardians out from the caster 15' in all directions, even for a large caster where it would actually be (GXXCCXXG) and so 40' across. Essentially saying the spirits are not within you. The standard practice for putting a 15' radius on a grid would be to designate what intersection is the origin, so it'd count entirely from one corner of the caster's square, caster's choice. That gets weird if done to a spell like thunderclap or word of radiance.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-02, 10:26 AM

All spells require a clear path to the target point unless they say otherwise.

I've heard this many times, but I couldn't find the rule in the cast a spell section of the PHB.

MaxWilson

2019-10-02, 10:56 AM

I've heard this many times, but I couldn't find the rule in the cast a spell section of the PHB.

It's under Casting a Spell | A Clear Path to the Target.

A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-02, 12:15 PM

It's under Casting a Spell | A Clear Path to the Target.

A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.

Ah, i see it now, thank you.

Tanarii

2019-10-02, 01:57 PM

A distance of 15 ft can fit three ranks of (Medium-sized) enemies in it. A grid (which is a variant rule, btw) artificially “pixelates” this and will distort the shape that a 15ft radius makes, but your argument essentially equates to “you have to be in the same square to count as within 5ft” which is just plain ridiculous.
You're hung up on a grid. A character occupies 5ft of space when no grid is used, but that's irrelevant to it being a 15ft radius (which is a 30ft diameter) effect.

On a grid it does get a little awkward. Off grid it is simple, 15ft radius from center of effect, for a 30ft diameter sphere.

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 04:38 PM

You're hung up on a grid. A character occupies 5ft of space when no grid is used, but that's irrelevant to it being a 15ft radius (which is a 30ft diameter) effect.

On a grid it does get a little awkward. Off grid it is simple, 15ft radius from center of effect, for a 30ft diameter sphere.

On the contrary, I’m specifically NOT getting hung up on the grid. With or without a grid, you can fit 3 rows of medium sized enemies within 15 ft. It’s that simple.

Think of it this way. Word of Radiance is a 5ft radius effect centred on self. It obviously effects the squares around you, or else it wouldn’t work at all, but on a grid that looks like a 15ft diameter sphere because of what amounts to a rounding error. Now imagine you have an ability to make it a 10ft radius. The radius expands by 5ft, yes? That looks like a 25ft sphere. Now bump it to a 15ft radius? That looks like a 35 ft sphere.

Yes, in reality the 15 ft radius would only make it to the halfway point of the most distant squares, but that doesn’t matter because they’re still occupying that space and are effected by the spell. Or else you get ridiculous things like Word of Radiance being useless and a Bugbear with a whip being able to hit enemy outside the Spirit Guardians.

sambojin

2019-10-02, 05:58 PM

Not too bad to use them both if you have them in a party, and maybe Plant Growth as well.

Let's see, that's HoH's difficult terrain (every 1' costs 2' of movement), PG's 1'=4' movement, and SG's "half movement in its area". So a 30' movement creature could move, ummmm, 2' when inside all the spell's AoEs. OK, so it's not great against some flyers (unless there's some trees about), but that's going to shut down movement in most encounters.

Agreed on the "is Blinded" bit of HoH. That's a very good effect without a saving throw. Totally different spell to SG. I look at HoH more like Sleet Storm, with a small damage rider. Ie: it's CC, not damage, that you're using it for. And it's very good at that. Heavily obscured and super-darkness are pretty much the same, game-wise as well. It probably has just as many weird interactions as Sleet Storm does too, especially on vision (SS is really your air-proner/anti-concentration spell, but cylinders are odd AoEs, so you can choose whether you have difficult terrain or not by casting it just above the ground when that's useful. Such as air-proning a low flyer, but still letting your party run up to smack them around on their turn. Readied actions, anyone? But it does all kinds of cool things with h.obscurement too if you want that (cast it so the cylinder base is at chest/waist/head height against tall creatures, while you short-stuffs can see just fine under it, to run in and stab their nadgy bits). Flat, magical, heavy obscurement is more vision-blocky than darkness (you need blindsight/ tremorsense/ truesight(?) to see through it, not just darkvision), but it's not as debilitating as actual blindness is either, which may or may-not be a good thing). I like SStorm better than HoH, mostly because it doesn't cause damage while doing vision stuff (you can cast it on yourself if you want to hide, etc), but I like HoH better than SG, because it does so much more than just damage and slowing. Vision is really weird in DnD.

So, just like Sleet Storm, I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with it as a spell choice. 20' radius difficult terrain, super-darkness, auto-blind, schlurpy sound generator, and even a bit of damage as well. What's not to like? It's pretty rare that you don't want all that to happen to an enemy on any given day. It's a sphere as well, so if you cast it with its center a bit above the ground, you might be within the sphere's "radius" on a 2D plane, but not actually "inside the spell effect" in a 3d world. Maths and targeting shenanigans abound :)
So, yeah, you can make its "ground effect radius" smaller if you want, for when that's useful. Go prone yourself and creep up to/under the edge of the sphere, etc. Or for when your fighter/barb/whatever has a 10' reach weapon, and you only really needed to target one BBEG.

Spirit Guardians is fire-and-forget. It does combat. It does it well. Sometimes that's what you want. HoH and SStorm do a lot of other stuff. Wayyyy deeper spells than people realize until you *really* read what they do.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-02, 06:19 PM

MaxWilson

2019-10-02, 06:45 PM

Except the center isn't a point, it's a creature. The radius is 15' from the creature, whether the creature is a tiny imp who cast SG through Ring of Spell Storing or gargantuan dragon.

Does anyone here feel like writing to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter account to ask whether the diameter of Spirit Guardians, when cast by an Large-size creature, is 30' or 40'? It might be amusing to watch him give an ambiguous, unhelpful answer that misses the point of the question.

-Max

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 06:58 PM

Does anyone here feel like writing to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter account to ask whether the diameter of Spirit Guardians, when cast by an Large-size creature, is 30' or 40'? It might be amusing to watch him give an ambiguous, unhelpful answer that misses the point of the question.

-Max

If a Divine Soul Sorcerer cast Wish to permanently Shapechange into a Tarrasque (otherwise following the stipulations of the Shapechange spell including retention of mental scores and class features), and then cast Spirit Guardians, would you see the Spirit Guardians? Or would they sit entirely within the volume of the 50ft by 70ft Tarrasque?

JackPhoenix

2019-10-02, 07:01 PM

Does anyone here feel like writing to Jeremy Crawford's Twitter account to ask whether the diameter of Spirit Guardians, when cast by an Large-size creature, is 30' or 40'? It might be amusing to watch him give an ambiguous, unhelpful answer that misses the point of the question.

-Max

We kinda have confirmation it would work like that, though in a different context: See JC's reply (https://twitter.com/ThinkingDM/status/996516787658416130)

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 07:09 PM

we kinda have confirmation it would work like that, though in a different context: see jc's reply (https://twitter.com/thinkingdm/status/996516787658416130)

Thank you!

MaxWilson

2019-10-02, 07:15 PM

We kinda have confirmation it would work like that, though in a different context: See JC's reply (https://twitter.com/ThinkingDM/status/996516787658416130)

What a strange definition of "radius" he is using.

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 07:46 PM

What a strange definition of "radius" he is using.

If you don’t use that definition then you get stupid interactions like 5ft radius effects only effecting one square.

sambojin

2019-10-02, 08:04 PM

Anyway, on my previous post, consider if you *really* want damage and darkness and blindness.

HoH, vs Sleet Storm. 20' radius sphere that you can see inside (assuming you've got darkvision, but still lightly obscured/dimly lit, ie: disadvantage) when outside it, compared to a 40' wide radius, 20' tall flat-bottomed cylinder that you can cast at chest height against tall stuff. You can choose if you want difficult terrain or not with a bit of ground clearance on the bottom of the cylinder too (spell effects *don't* go outside their AoE. And you can put the bottom of the cylinder 6 inches above the ground. No difficult terrain is created :-) ). But it's always a heavily obscured area in the AoE, no caveats or easy-outs from that, from the outside of the effect or in it.

I like the versatility of potential air-proning, a spell DC concentration save against enemy casters (usually about DC14-15 when you get it), a cylinder with an even bigger radius, and no damage if it's just heavy obscurement you need. But Blinded and darkness and damage is good too (especially with a lot of shooters with darkvision in your party) with HoH. Not much darkvision in the party? Go SStorm for magical heavy obscurement, to shutdown all the enemies you'll face with darkvision (VHumans and Firbolg are amazing, but they don't have that one thing....). Plenty of darkvision in the party? Go HoH, and have a decent darkness/blind/slow movement/damage spell. The choice is yours.

It's not "is HoH better than SG?". It's "HoH is a bit like SStorm, so what one of them do you want?".

Different flavoured apples to compare, not apples and oranges. Spirit Guardians just does Spirit Guardians stuff. HoH and SStorm are a fairer comparison, but still wildly different in use.

((edit: nevermind on targeting Sleet Storm. You can do "base up" cylinders, especially if the spell doesn't mention "coming in from above". So yeah. Fireballs/HoH/radius-cast-at-a-point spells don't have to fit into a room, neither do cylinder spells. Walls and ceilings stop the effect being "as big as maximum", but any point is a reasonable target. Up or down for the cylinder area base/top. Assuming it doesn't "come from outside". Which this one doesn't. Targeting shenanigans with Sleet Storm are in full effect, RAW and RAI:

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells#content

Yay! I wondered why my DM didn't really have a problem with my BS on that :) ))

Tanarii

2019-10-02, 11:09 PM

Think of it this way. Word of Radiance is a 5ft radius effect centred on self.
Word of Radiance has a range of 5ft. That's a totally different thing from 15ft radius.

MaxWilson

2019-10-02, 11:32 PM

If you don’t use that definition then you get stupid interactions like 5ft radius effects only effecting one square.

No, per the DMG they cover about four squares. I'd be cool with the player choosing which four squares, on the logic that he doesn't have to line himself up exactly with the grid.

Besides, are there even any 5' radius effects in the game? As Tanar'ri points out, Word of Radiance doesn't qualify: it has a 5' range, not a 5' radius.

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 11:33 PM

Word of Radiance has a range of 5ft. That's a totally different thing from 15ft radius.

Sure. Can you explain why this this difference anything more than semantics in the context of this discussion?

BarneyBent

2019-10-02, 11:43 PM

No, per the DMG they cover about four squares. I'd be cool with the player choosing which four squares, on the logic that he doesn't have to line himself up exactly with the grid.

Except that the PHB specifically says it must originate from you. 5ft radius covering 4 squares would only happen when following the suggestion of selecting your point of origin at the intersect of grid lines. That doesn’t work with spells centred on self because you’re in the squares, not between them.

Besides, are there even any 5' radius effects in the game? As Tanar'ri points out, Word of Radiance doesn't qualify: it has a 5' range, not a 5' radius.

If you can make a persuasive argument that they’re functionally different for the purposes of this discussion I’m open to it but I don’t see it.

Tanarii

2019-10-03, 10:29 AM

Sure. Can you explain why this this difference anything more than semantics in the context of this discussion?
If you don't understand the word "radius", and how it's specifically to the distance from the center point of a circle / sphere to the circumference, then I can't help you.

AdAstra

2019-10-03, 10:44 AM

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 10:53 AM

Anyway, on my previous post, consider if you *really* want damage and darkness and blindness.

HoH, vs Sleet Storm. 20' radius sphere that you can see inside (assuming you've got darkvision, but still lightly obscured/dimly lit, ie: disadvantage) when outside it, compared to a 40' wide radius, 20' tall flat-bottomed cylinder that you can cast at chest height against tall stuff. You can choose if you want difficult terrain or not with a bit of ground clearance on the bottom of the cylinder too (spell effects *don't* go outside their AoE. And you can put the bottom of the cylinder 6 inches above the ground. No difficult terrain is created :-) ). But it's always a heavily obscured area in the AoE, no caveats or easy-outs from that, from the outside of the effect or in it.

I like the versatility of potential air-proning, a spell DC concentration save against enemy casters (usually about DC14-15 when you get it), a cylinder with an even bigger radius, and no damage if it's just heavy obscurement you need. But Blinded and darkness and damage is good too (especially with a lot of shooters with darkvision in your party) with HoH. Not much darkvision in the party? Go SStorm for magical heavy obscurement, to shutdown all the enemies you'll face with darkvision (VHumans and Firbolg are amazing, but they don't have that one thing....). Plenty of darkvision in the party? Go HoH, and have a decent darkness/blind/slow movement/damage spell. The choice is yours.

Nowhere in the description of HoH does it say it creates darkness, or that creatures with darkvision can or cant see, what it creates is a sphere of blackness, i.e: you can perfectly see a black sphere, thus Darkvision or Devil's Sight won't help, it isn't a illusion either, so True Sight doesn't help either. You need blindsight or maybe tremorsense.

Except that the PHB specifically says it must originate from you. 5ft radius covering 4 squares would only happen when following the suggestion of selecting your point of origin at the intersect of grid lines. That doesn’t work with spells centred on self because you’re in the squares, not between them.

If you can make a persuasive argument that they’re functionally different for the purposes of this discussion I’m open to it but I don’t see it.

A 5 ft radius area is ~4 squares, a 5 ft range spell (that affets everything within range), would be equal to that only in the case that the caster didn't occupy a square.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-03, 03:44 PM

Nowhere in the description of HoH does it say it creates darkness, or that creatures with darkvision can or cant see, what it creates is a sphere of blackness, i.e: you can perfectly see a black sphere, thus Darkvision or Devil's Sight won't help, it isn't a illusion either, so True Sight doesn't help either. You need blindsight or maybe tremorsense.

As blackness has no meaning in vision rules, and the spell doesn't specifiy it's opaque (like Leomund's Tiny Hut does), it means that anything outside sphere (creatures inside are blind) would be able to see inside normally, though color vision may be a problem.

Except it specifies light can't illuminate the area, which leads us back to darkness. And we have rules for that. HoH doesn't mention it blocks darkvision, like Darkness does, so creatures with darkvision would be able to see inside normally without the need for Devil's Sight.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 03:51 PM

As blackness has no meaning in vision rules, and the spell doesn't specifiy it's opaque (like Leomund's Tiny Hut does), it means that anything outside sphere (creatures inside are blind) would be able to see inside normally, though color vision may be a problem.

Except it specifies light can't illuminate the area, which leads us back to darkness. And we have rules for that. HoH doesn't mention it blocks darkvision, like Darkness does, so creatures with darkvision would be able to see inside normally without the need for Devil's Sight.

I t doesn't need to mention that its opaque, When an illusion spell says it creates visual stimuli it does not specify its opaque or not, it just states what you see. Here its the same, you see a sphere of blackness, and darkvision is of no help either because darkvision helps in dark and dim light conditions, none of which are present here.

sithlordnergal

2019-10-03, 03:58 PM

People are talking about spirit guardians as if it mentions radius, which it does not. It specifically states “They flit around you to a distance of 15 feet for the Duration“. So it’s not a 15 ft. radius sphere centered on you. It’s anywhere within 15 ft of you. If you were somehow a 5 ft wide 100 ft. long cylinder (I know that’s technically not how size works in dnd), spirit guardians would effectively be a 35 ft 35 ft by 130 ft rectangular prism. Note rectangular. At least when using a grid, 5e doesn’t consider diagonals for distance. For example, a character’s reach behaves like a cube, even when it becomes large enough that it should start to look more like a spherical collection of grid spaces. This results in spirit guardians on a medium sized creature having the area of a 35 x 35 ft cube.

The radius discussion is coming from the Range part of the spell. If you look, it says "Range: Self (15-foot radius)", so that implies that the 15ft. that the spirits flutter about is a 15ft. radius around yourself.

EDIT: That said, since every other spell and aura where the caster is the center works in a way where you ignore that center point, then the radius should look like [x][x][x][c][x][x][x].
If we did count the center as part of the radius, a Paladin's 10ft aura would be [x][c][x] instead of [x][x][c][x][x].

JackPhoenix

2019-10-03, 04:21 PM

I t doesn't need to mention that its opaque, When an illusion spell says it creates visual stimuli it does not specify its opaque or not, it just states what you see. Here its the same, you see a sphere of blackness, and darkvision is of no help either because darkvision helps in dark and dim light conditions, none of which are present here.

They very explicitly are. "No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area". If no light can illuminate the area, the area is dark. It's not that complicated. And if it's not opaque, you can see through and inside the area, provided you can get around the dark part.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 04:27 PM

They very explicitly are.

Where exactly?

Silent Image: "You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual; it isn't accompanied by sound, smell, or other sensory effects."

No mention of it being opaque, just stating what you see.

"No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area". If no light can illuminate the area, the area is dark. It's not that complicated. And if it's not opaque, you can see through and inside the area, provided you can get around the dark part.

One thing does not contradict the other, there's a sphere of blackness which cant be illuminated, your vision works just fine, you see a sphere of blackness.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-03, 04:35 PM

Where exactly?

In the quote. In the parentheses.

Silent Image: "You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual; it isn't accompanied by sound, smell, or other sensory effects."

No mention of it being opaque, just stating what you see.

Which is relevant to HoH how exactly? If you create the image of a glass window, it's transparent. If you create the image of a solid stone wall, it's opaque. That's because the object itself is transparent or opaque.

One thing does not contradict the other, there's a sphere of blackness which cant be illuminated, your vision works just fine, you see a sphere of blackness.

The sphere of blackness does NOT block vision. If you have darkvision, you see anything inside the sphere of blackness, though as it was in dim light and in black and white only. Unless you have Devil's Sight too.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 04:56 PM

Which is relevant to HoH how exactly? If you create the image of a glass window, it's transparent. If you create the image of a solid stone wall, it's opaque. That's because the object itself is transparent or opaque.

The sphere of blackness does NOT block vision. If you have darkvision, you see anything inside the sphere of blackness, though as it was in dim light and in black and white only. Unless you have Devil's Sight too.

Repeating your interpretation without an argument doesnot make it more valid, you still haven't addressed tha tthe sphere is not darkness, but blackness.

Darkness and blackness aren't the same, darkness obscures the color of things making it hard to tell them apart, blackness is not obscuring anything, like seeing a blue shirt in poor light vs seeing a black shirt, darkvision will make us able to differentiate them by seeing the blue shirt blue, but the black one will still look black.

The sphere of blackness is that, a sphere of black color, and no light can illuminate it.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-03, 05:05 PM

Repeating your interpretation without an argument doesnot make it more valid, you still haven't addressed tha tthe sphere is not darkness, but blackness.

The sphere of blackness is that, a sphere of black color, and no light can illuminate it.

Which is irrelevant. Blackness has no bearing on vision rules. The spell also create darkness, and that's what I've adressed, because that's the part that actually has meaning. Sunglasses are also black, but doesn't block your vision when you're wearing them.

Darkness and blackness aren't the same, darkness obscures the color of things making it hard to tell them apart, blackness is not obscuring anything, like seeing a blue shirt in poor light vs seeing a black shirt, darkvision will make us able to differentiate them by seeing the blue shirt blue, but the black one will still look black.

Darkness doesn't obscure color, it makes you unable to see anything. Dim light doesn't change colors either. Darkvision is black and white only, but that's a specific exception... fire genasi darkvision is in shades of red, for example, and Devil's Sight grant normal color vision.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 05:21 PM

Which is irrelevant. Blackness has no bearing on vision rules. The spell also create darkness, and that's what I've adressed, because that's the part that actually has meaning. Sunglasses are also black, but doesn't block your vision when you're wearing them.

Of course it doesnt, vision rules keep working as intended. A silent image of a black cube can't be seen thru by darkvision, or devils sight, its no obscured its just black, same here.

Darkness doesn't obscure color, it makes you unable to see anything. Dim light doesn't change colors either. Darkvision is black and white only, but that's a specific exception... fire genasi darkvision is in shades of red, for example, and Devil's Sight grant normal color vision.

Sorry, have you ever been outside with just moonlightning? Dim light definitely obscures color.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-03, 06:46 PM

Of course it doesnt, vision rules keep working as intended. A silent image of a black cube can't be seen thru by darkvision, or devils sight, its no obscured its just black, same here.

And non-solid, non-opaque sphere of blackness created by HoH can. Unlike Silent Image of black cube, it does not provide obscurement if you can overcome the "no light" part, which darkvision can do.

Sorry, have you ever been outside with just moonlightning? Dim light definitely obscures color.

That has nothing to do with the brightness of the light, but rather its source. Low powered flashlight also creates dim light, yet it doesn't mess with color vision.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-03, 08:24 PM

And non-solid, non-opaque sphere of blackness created by HoH can. Unlike Silent Image of black cube, it does not provide obscurement if you can overcome the "no light" part, which darkvision can do.

Can you start backing your claims? Because nowhere in silent image's description does it say its creations are opaque and its definitely not solid, you are hung of the lightning part of HoH and ignoring the sphere of blackness which darkvision does nothing against.

That has nothing to do with the brightness of the light, but rather its source. Low powered flashlight also creates dim light, yet it doesn't mess with color vision.

The are illuminated by the flashlight has normal lightnint the peripheria of the cone has dim lightnint (you can see shapes but not much more), the rest is dark (not black)

Tanarii

2019-10-04, 08:23 AM

People are talking about spirit guardians as if it mentions radius, which it does not.
Range Self (15ft radius)

Lord Haart

2019-10-04, 09:11 AM

Of course it doesnt, vision rules keep working as intended. A silent image of a black cube can't be seen thru by darkvision, or devils sight, its no obscured its just black, same here.

Is that so? I think there's a pretty good argument that there's nothing inherently linking "black" with "can't be seen through".

Vision and Light
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring— noticing danger, finding hidden Objects, hitting an enemy in Combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—rely heavily on a character’s ability to see.

Darkness and other Effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

A heavily obscured area—such as Darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the Blinded condition (see Conditions ) when trying to see something in that area.

The presence or absence of light in an Environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and Darkness.

Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of Illumination within a specific radius.

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding Darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face Darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical Darkness.

In fact, your words are self-defeating:

its no obscured its just black
As quoted above, only a "heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely", so if "its no obscured its just black", it can't block vision unless specified.

In case of Silent Image, it IS specified: "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image." This implies that if a creature does not discern the illusion, it can't see through it; there seems to be no difference in this regard between an image of a black cube and an image of a transparent glass window.

(On the other hand, if there is a non-illusory solid black cube, it is entirely up to DM if it impedes perception or not, as there are no rules on this matter; if a character were to craft such a cube, i'd say it's as much of a player's call on whether they want a transparent or non-transparent black cube as it's their call on its size, precise form and other craftable properties).

In case of HoH, there is nothing that specifies it can or can't be seen through (only that creatures fully within are blinded). It's a spell, and spells generally only do what they do; to imply extra effects would be the same as to imply that Fireball should blind in addition to doing damage, since it's hot enough to cause a blindingly bright explosion. So unless DM decides it should do so for the Rule of Cool (or some other reason), HoH, in my reading, is black but does not obstruct vision (which would be an extra effect to it), other than in the ways it has explicitly listed.

dragoeniex

2019-10-04, 09:47 AM

Adding another situational power spike to Hunger of Hadar, it's brutal if you can shut enemies into a room where you've cast it.

Our lv 5 party went through a dungeon that concluded in a long, narrow corridor with a room at the end. The room housed many kobold combatants and a beefed-up wyrmling with a line breath attack guaranteed to hit everyone in said long hall.

My warlock, having just learned HoH, threw it down the hallway and sent the entire room into a blackout from hell. The eldritch knight and druid rushed up to slam the room's stone door shut and hold it closed while the kobolds and wyrmling battered at it from the inside, clawing to break free. Beautiful thing was, they all had disadvantage on their attempts to hit the door, so it lasted a bit longer than anticipated (kobolds did not have great aim).

The sorcerer was already unconscious from the first breath attack, but it's the thought that counts.

The wyrmling was annoyed by the time it broke out, but we'd melted all of its kobold minions. The fight was tricky, but 4v1 was much better than 4v6!

Rukelnikov

2019-10-04, 10:10 AM

Is that so? I think there's a pretty good argument that there's nothing inherently linking "black" with "can't be seen through".

In fact, your words are self-defeating:

As quoted above, only a "heavily obscured area blocks vision entirely", so if "its no obscured its just black", it can't block vision unless specified.

In case of Silent Image, it IS specified: "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image." This implies that if a creature does not discern the illusion, it can't see through it; there seems to be no difference in this regard between an image of a black cube and an image of a transparent glass window.

(On the other hand, if there is a non-illusory solid black cube, it is entirely up to DM if it impedes perception or not, as there are no rules on this matter; if a character were to craft such a cube, i'd say it's as much of a player's call on whether they want a transparent or non-transparent black cube as it's their call on its size, precise form and other craftable properties).

In case of HoH, there is nothing that specifies it can or can't be seen through (only that creatures fully within are blinded). It's a spell, and spells generally only do what they do; to imply extra effects would be the same as to imply that Fireball should blind in addition to doing damage, since it's hot enough to cause a blindingly bright explosion. So unless DM decides it should do so for the Rule of Cool (or some other reason), HoH, in my reading, is black but does not obstruct vision (which would be an extra effect to it), other than in the ways it has explicitly listed.

Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind, a box prevents you from seeing whats inside... its not very hard.

Lord Haart

2019-10-04, 10:19 AM

Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind, a box prevents you from seeing whats inside... its not very hard.

I'm very interested in seeing the relevant quote, or learning the page number.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-04, 10:23 AM

I'm very interested in seeing the relevant quote, or learning the page number.

Its called real world, and having eyes, can you see behind a wall or inside a closed box?

JackPhoenix

2019-10-04, 04:33 PM

Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind, a box prevents you from seeing whats inside... its not very hard.

Weird. I wear glasses right now, which means they are in my vision field, yet I can see what's in front of me. Same if I look out of the window (though it's night outside, so there isn't much to see). I can even take my *black* (because black is what's so important about HoH, apparently) sunglasses, put them on, and still be able to see whatevever is in front of me just fine. I can do the same with the homemade filter (made out of multiple layers of exposed film.... also black) I've used to watch solar eclipse years ago... I won't see much, but bright enough light sources are still visible.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-04, 04:42 PM

Weird. I wear glasses right now, which means they are in my vision field, yet I can see what's in front of me. Same if I look out of the window (though it's night outside, so there isn't much to see). I can even take my *black* (because black is what's so important about HoH, apparently) sunglasses, put them on, and still be able to see whatevever is in front of me just fine. I can do the same with the homemade filter (made out of multiple layers of exposed film.... also black) I've used to watch solar eclipse years ago... I won't see much, but bright enough light sources are still visible.

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

JackPhoenix

2019-10-04, 05:17 PM

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

Rukelnikov

2019-10-04, 05:24 PM

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

I don't need to, if you can see thru them, its because they are polarizing light, thus changing the amount of light hitting your retina, and thus changing hue at which you are perceiving colors, which... you know, its how shades work.

MaxWilson

2019-10-04, 05:32 PM

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

You're missing Rukelnikov's point, which is about the technical definition of "color".

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-hue-and-vs-color/

"Hue refers to a specific basic tone of color or the root color and, in a rough definition, can be considered as the main colors in the rainbow. It is not another name for color as colors are more explicitly defined adding with brightness and saturation."

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

Contrast

2019-10-04, 05:42 PM

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

Surely something with a yellow hue is still yellow? If not, what colour is it :smallconfused:

Edit - the argument is its not perfect black its just a really dark grey? It's worth saying by that logic no human has ever seen black yet we routinely call things black. /edit

Regardless, unfortunately not sure this aside really helps us. Black is the colour we see when something absorbs light (or in the absence of light). Except in this case there's nothing absorbing light (other than presumably magic) and creatures who can see without light (you would presume also by magic).

Both take us so far outside real world understandings of how you see that any real world analogy doesn't really work.

MaxWilson

2019-10-04, 06:00 PM

Surely something with a yellow hue is still yellow? If not, what colour is it :smallconfused:

Edit - the argument is its not perfect black its just a really dark grey? It's worth saying by that logic no human has ever seen black yet we routinely call things black. /edit

Regardless, unfortunately not sure this aside really helps us. Black is the colour we see when something absorbs light (or in the absence of light). Except in this case there's nothing absorbing light (other than presumably magic) and creatures who can see without light (you would presume also by magic).

Both take us so far outside real world understandings of how you see that any real world analogy doesn't really work.

Argument here is not over the color yellow. It is over whether, when Hunger of Hadar says "A 20-foot-radius sphere of blackness and bitter cold appears, centered on a point with range and lasting for the duration. This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away. No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded," it is referring to "blackness" in a sense which includes "lack of brightness" among its traits, as per the color black, and whether that makes it opaque, including to darkvision.

Me, I think "sphere of blackness" is just another way of saying "no light... can illuminate the area," so arguments over hue vs. color add no extra value. The sunglasses thing is a tangent which in the end has no bearing on how Hunger of Hadar works.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-04, 06:01 PM

You're missing Rukelnikov's point, which is about the technical definition of "color".

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-hue-and-vs-color/

"Hue refers to a specific basic tone of color or the root color and, in a rough definition, can be considered as the main colors in the rainbow. It is not another name for color as colors are more explicitly defined adding with brightness and saturation."

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

Language differences, then, my language uses the same word for those concepts.

Still, as color is what humans perceive, he's got it the opposite way: I can perceive something as black in color even if the hue is actually blue or brown (as those are common hues that sunglasses also use). So the sunglasses are black in color, as I (and presumably everyone else) see them as black, even though their hue may not be black (well, to be entirely fair, I don't see them as black now, as they are covered in dust and scratches due to being decades old.... but that's besides the point. They were black enough once.).

Transparent black or gloss black or vantablack is still black in color.

Me, I think "sphere of blackness" is just another way of saying "no light... can illuminate the area," so arguments over hue vs. color add no extra value. The sunglasses thing is a tangent which in the end has no bearing on how Hunger of Hadar works.

The sunglasses thing was mostly a reaction to his claim that "Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind", which is patently false due to existence of transparent objects, and that black does not automatically mean opaque.

MaxWilson

2019-10-04, 07:03 PM

Language differences, then, my language uses the same word for those concepts. *snip*

Well, maybe that, but also the fact that the colloquial definition of "color", even in English, predates the technical definition of "color".

I'm not saying you have to use the technical definition yourself, just that Rukelnikov's point was technical and general to all sunglasses, not specific to your particular sunglasses.

JackPhoenix

2019-10-04, 07:44 PM

Well, maybe that, but also the fact that the colloquial definition of "color", even in English, predates the technical definition of "color".

I'm not saying you have to use the technical definition yourself, just that Rukelnikov's point was technical and general to all sunglasses, not specific to your particular sunglasses.

No, he's wrong. In fact, he contradicts himself by first saying the lenses aren't black, but then that black is a color.

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

"Dark" is not hue. It refers to brightness. Black can be both color and hue. And the lenses, of course, can be dark tinted and black in either color or hue at the same time.