Bahamut Vs. Cthulhu

[Bartmanhomer]

This is a very intriguing battle. D&D Deity Vs. Lovecraft Deity. Ok, using the D&D 3.5 Version of Bahamut this is a very tough battle. Using all sorts of tricks and godly abilities for Bahamut. And all Cthulhu can do is too cause destruction and cause insanity. (Not saying that he doesn't have any godly powers as well). So I think Cthulhu might win this one.

[Thurbane]

Depends: do you want to use d20 Cthulhu stats for Cthulhu? That's probably going to be the closest you can get to an "official" matchup. Unless you use PF.

[Bartmanhomer]

Depends: do you want to use d20 Cthulhu stats for Cthulhu? That's probably going to be the closest you can get to an "official" matchup. Unless you use PF.

I think I post it to the wring section. This thread was originally posted in Media but oh well. LOL. Yes I can use the d20 Cthulhu stats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's actually a d20 stat block for Cthulu in the CoC d20 manual. If you're going by that then Bahamut wins, hands down. More HD, far more special abilities, and deific immunities render Cthulu's abilities near impotent.

If appropriate adaptation is made, rather than just an as-is copy-pasta job, then either giving Chtulu divine rank and/or making it an elder evil could bring them much closer together but even then, Bahamut is -still- a fairly powerful deity and a dragon of 60HD. Dragon HD > Outsider HD.

[ShurikVch]

There's actually a d20 stat block for Cthulu in the CoC d20 manual. If you're going by that then Bahamut wins, hands down. More HD, far more special abilities, and deific immunities render Cthulu's abilities near impotent.Actually, unless Bahamut blitz it, Cthulhu can win it for sure: he have access to the Call Deity spell; so, if he calls, say, Nyarlathotep - what's Bahamut will be able to do? Fly away screaming? Cry for mercy? Suicide?

And it's just one spell!
Cthulhu can also, for example, Create Time Gate, and make omelet of Bahamut's egg...


If appropriate adaptation is made, rather than just an as-is copy-pasta job, then either giving Chtulu divine rankAlready have it - he's a Demigod

[Calthropstu]

You're asking "who will win, greater deity or demigod?"
Greater deity every time.

[ShurikVch]

You're asking "who will win, greater deity or demigod?"
Greater deity every time.Bahamut is Lesser Deity

[Bartmanhomer]

You're asking "who will win, greater deity or demigod?"
Greater deity every time.

Well according to the Draconomicon Bahamut is a Lesser Deity in 3.5 Edition. But either way Bahamut going to win.

[Esprit15]

If Cthulhu wins by calling in someone else to help, it's not really winning.

[Bartmanhomer]

If Cthulhu wins by calling in someone else to help, it's not really winning.

Well Cthulhu is Chaotic Evil because he doesn't play by the rules and he's evil.

[SimonMoon6]

Another way to put this is:

Cthulhu is a big wimp by god standards. He's supposed to be. In his one official appearance involving "combat", he was temporarily destroyed by having a boat rammed into him.

In the Lovecraftian mythos, Cthulhu is one of the weakest of deities, someone who was actually imprisoned on Earth, unlike the powerful deities who can do whatever they want.

Cthulhu just has a good press agent telling everyone how scary he is... because he IS scary to mere humans. But to other gods? No, just no.

Yeah, the Cthulhu Mythos is named after him (and the Call of Cthulhu game is named after him... or actually after the main story in which he appears). But that doesn't make him impressive.

Imagine if D&D was instead called B&B for "Blood and Blibdoolpoolp". That wouldn't suddenly make Blibdoolpoolp one of the most powerful D&D deities. She'd still be that one obscure deity worshipped only by the kuo-toa, who are somewhat obscure themselves.

Hey, that'd be a better fight: Cthulhu (and his deep ones) vs Blibdoolpoolp (and her kuo-toa).

[Calthropstu]

Wait, the dragon king and queen are both lesser deities? Why are the gods of the dragons, arguably one of the most powerful races, LESSER? Any random person can literally walk up to a dragon and be all "my god's stronger than your god nyah nyah."
That just seems silly.

[Bartmanhomer]

Wait, the dragon king and queen are both lesser deities? Why are the gods of the dragons, arguably one of the most powerful races, LESSER? Any random person can literally walk up to a dragon and be all "my god's stronger than your god nyah nyah."
That just seems silly.

Well Io, the king of dragonkind is an Intermediate deity. So your guess are good as mine. :confused.

[Xervous]

Deities derive power from worshippers and petitioners (souls of dead faithful). I don’t have access to my books right now but I recall reading in many sources that dragons overall aren’t particularly devout. Sample an average material plane and I’m sure most sentient races will be skewing towards one or more deities of racial significance or general appeal. Bahamut and Tiamat have their niche and mostly only each other for direct opposition. They’re just not nearly as mainstream as the other dysfunctional family of Hextor and Heironeous who preach vaguely similar ideals but notably are humanoid in their representations.

[Helluin]

Pretty sure Greater Deities have millions of worshipper. Now while nothing quite confirms the order of the causative link, I’d expect that it’s easier for greater deities to exert influence and thereby expanding their own powers given the vast number of followers (dragons are powerful, yes, but so are cleric 20 - and it’s more than likely that greater deities have more high level clerics than dragon deities have Wyrm followers?)

[Bartmanhomer]

Pretty sure Greater Deities have millions of worshipper. Now while nothing quite confirms the order of the causative link, I’d expect that it’s easier for greater deities to exert influence and thereby expanding their own powers given the vast number of followers (dragons are powerful, yes, but so are cleric 20 - and it’s more than likely that greater deities have more high level clerics than dragon deities have Wyrm followers?)
They do. You're correct.

[Yael]

If Cthulhu wins by calling in someone else to help, it's not really winning.

But isn't that like, why the Wizard is that good of a class? Because of using stuff that gives an outright advantage? Why would this be any different if it's on its statblock as an ability to use? :smallconfused:

[Sutr]

Doesnt bahumut get his what 7 great worms from deities and demigods then they are in his statblock?

[EisenKreutzer]

Cthulhu gets a lot of hype, but in the grand scheme of things he is merely a high priest of far greater, more terrifying gods.

[ShurikVch]

Cthulhu gets a lot of hype, but in the grand scheme of things he is merely a high priest of far greater, more terrifying gods.While Cthulhu isn't the strongest in the Mythos, he's certainly isn't bottom tier too.

By the Call of Cthulhu d20:



Place
Name
CR


1
Azathoth
50


2
Shub-Niggurath, Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
48


3
Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos / Yog-Sothoth
45


4
Tsathoggua
39


5
Nodens the Hunter, Lord of the Great Abyss
38


6
Hastur the Unspeakable
37


7
Cthulhu
34


8
Mordiggian, the Charnel God
30


9
Eihort / Yig, the Father of Serpents
27


10
Chaugnar Faugn, the Horror from the Hills / Ithaqua
25


11
Cthugha / Shudde M'ell
21


12
Glaaki
17


13
Father Dagon and Mother Hydra
14



So, Cthulhu is #7 out of 13 - not bad at all.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think the answer lies in this question:

Can bahamut handle non Euclidean geometry?

[Baelon]

I think the answer lies in this question:

Can bahamut handle non Euclidean geometry?

I mean, yeah, honestly, most people can, I imagine a deity could with ease. A lot of geometry is non-Euclidean, Lovecraft just didn't understand math.

[ezekielraiden]

I think the answer lies in this question:

Can bahamut handle non Euclidean geometry?

According to Deities & Demigods, the answer appears to be yes:
"Deities of rank 6 or higher [read: at least lesser deities] are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking."

Given Cthulhu is of at most divine rank 5 (being "only" a demigod), he does not have this immunity. That's a pretty serious weakness compared to Bahamut, and one that could be easily exploited by the latter. Much of the details of the fight will depend on exactly what their relative divine ranks are--if Cthulhu is rank 5 and Bahamut is rank 6, then it could be a close fight if Cthulhu can get a lot more preparation and planning than Bahamut. Alternatively, if Cthulhu is rank 1 and Bahamut rank 10, it'd be pretty much a hilarious curbstomp--deities get their divine rank added to natural armor, all skill checks, saving throws, save DCs for many abilities, and a bunch of other things, and lesser deities can take 10 on any check while demigods can't. That's...a lot of benefits stacked in the lesser deity's favor.

[Eldan]

Yeah, the Cthulhu Mythos is named after him (and the Call of Cthulhu game is named after him... or actually after the main story in which he appears). But that doesn't make him impressive.

That's the best part about it: posthumously. Lovecraft wanted the entire thing named after Yog-Sothoth.

Anyway, Cthulhu is just not that impressive. In D&D, you could pretty easily stat him up as a mid-level monster. Colossal size and mid-level spellcasting is all he really needs. And some elder-evil like omen effect that gives people all around the planet strange dreams when he wakes up. People who stat him as a demigod, I've always felt, are making him too powerful. He's a priest of an alien race, not a god.

[Thurbane]

Anyway, Cthulhu is just not that impressive. In D&D, you could pretty easily stat him up as a mid-level monster. Colossal size and mid-level spellcasting is all he really needs. And some elder-evil like omen effect that gives people all around the planet strange dreams when he wakes up. People who stat him as a demigod, I've always felt, are making him too powerful. He's a priest of an alien race, not a god.

I was contemplating a Winged Half-Illithid Phaerlin Giant Cleric X once, for a Villainous Competition, as a nod to Cthulhu.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/6e870199c58766a3d6563e9ad36114df/tumblr_inline_obtv17CF661r0uzcn_540.jpg

[ShurikVch]

According to Deities & Demigods, the answer appears to be yes:
"Deities of rank 6 or higher [read: at least lesser deities] are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking."

Given Cthulhu is of at most divine rank 5 (being "only" a demigod), he does not have this immunity.Well, the fight of iconic characters versus Cthulhu (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pziqFiuwMc8/UvACU_m0fiI/AAAAAAAAFME/zfbRBPEfpBg/s1600/Cthulhu.jpg) was ended by Imprisonment
But Cthulhu also can cast Dismiss Deity, and claim victory by absence of the enemy...



People who stat him as a demigod, I've always felt, are making him too powerful. He's a priest of an alien race, not a god.Then what you will say about Dagon?
Isn't he weaker than Cthulhu?
But still a god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon)...

[Eldan]

He's worshipped as one. Doesn't mean he is one in D&D terms. Archfiends also have worshippers and aren't gods in D&D terms. There's a published adventure somewhere that I read where a tribe of lizard folk worship a Green Hag with a handful of sorcerer levels. Certainly not a god.

Look at what Cthulhu actually does inLovecraft's story in D&D terms. Is there any evidence for him having divine ranks? Or Dagon?

[ShurikVch]

He's worshipped as one. Doesn't mean he is one in D&D terms. Archfiends also have worshippers and aren't gods in D&D terms. There's a published adventure somewhere that I read where a tribe of lizard folk worship a Green Hag with a handful of sorcerer levels. Certainly not a god.

Look at what Cthulhu actually does inLovecraft's story in D&D terms. Is there any evidence for him having divine ranks? Or Dagon?If Bast and Hypnos are still gods in Mythos, then why Dagon shouldn't be one?

And about the Cthulhu's embarrassment with a steamboat - any fan will tell you: it's happened because "stars weren't right!" At the very least, he did better than Yegg-Ha the Faceless One (Who fall in ancient Britain to centuria of Roman soldiers)

[Eldan]

I am a fan. I've read everything Lovecraft wrote, plus a good deal of other mythos authors. And played the various RPGs and board games. Which is why it annoys me when the various lovecraftian creatures are trivialized like that. It makes them vastly less interesting and misses the entire point of Lovecraft's writing.

As for Hypnos, he's in exactly one Lovecraft story, does nothing divine whatsoever and is never called a god. Bast is a Bloch god, not a Lovecraft god.

[ShurikVch]

I am a fan. I've read everything Lovecraft wrote, plus a good deal of other mythos authors.Then tell us: were stars "right" in the Call of Cthulhu original story, or not?


And played the various RPGs and board games. Which is why it annoys me when the various lovecraftian creatures are trivialized like that. It makes them vastly less interesting and misses the entire point of Lovecraft's writing.The problem with Cthulhu as a creature is the same as for Slender Man from Creepypasta, Chara from Undertale, and Salem from RWBY: in the original story, he didn't do that much to draw conclusions from (even his rivalry with Hastur came from August Derleth).
So, in order to answer the OP question, we need to draw from some adaptation - be it Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu d20, AD&D Deities & Demigods, or even Cthulhu Saves the World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeboyd_Games#Cthulhu_Saves_the_World).


As for Hypnos, he's in exactly one Lovecraft story, does nothing divine whatsoever and is never called a god. Bast is a Bloch god, not a Lovecraft god.How about Hastur? He's god, right?

Also, there are gods in Poetry and the Gods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_and_the_Gods).