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Zhentarim
2019-10-01, 12:17 AM
Logical Independent (B/U)
Neutral Independent (B/G)
Rash Independent (B/R)


Logical Neutral (G/U)
True Neutral (U/U)
Rash Neutral (R/G)


Logical Subordinate (W/U)
Neutral Subordinate (G/W)
Rash Subordinate (R/W)



LI: These people act in their rational self-interest, carefully calculating what will help them and those closest to them in the long run. They are not showy about their ambitions, preferring to follow a long-term plan to success. It is unlikely they will harm others because of an empty concept like “Righteousness” or “Justice”. Careful not to act in haste, they make sure they have all the facts at hand before acting.

LN: These people are logic-incarnate, as they use their minds to order and categorize the world around them. They are neither fully independent or subordinate, however. These people recognize forces more powerful than themselves and reverently regard those forces but also don’t feel particularly beholden to them. At times, these people will forgo what is in their best interest in the name of better understanding the world around them. More than any character alignment, LN thinks about the consequences of its actions before acting.

LS: These people are great lovers of logic and mental structure, but frequently are bound by the ideas and ideals of somebody more powerful than themselves. Especially dangerous due to their idealism combined with their patience, these people sometimes create laws for others to follow that are well intentioned, but criminalize rational self-interest.

NI: Independent people who value their freedom, they sometimes don’t think things through. They have enough of a penchant for reflection to not act rashly most of the time, but they lack the logical disposition needed to really get what they need. These people stay forever wanting more power, but self-sabotage themselves in the process.

TN: Complacent, conservative, and prone to just following their instincts, these people aren’t much of a threat unless you provoke them. They aren’t much help beyond a human resource, as they tend not to like change, and thus are unlikely to willingly help the ambitions of more logical or independent people, even if there is an opportunity for mutual benefit. Woe to those who change a TN way of life, however. At that point, they may attack like a caged animal.

NS: These people are like cattle. They form herds and are often stuck in their ways. Like their less subordinate counterparts, they struggle to think rationally at times, but this is combined with idealism and a hostility to individualism that can create problems for anybody who doesn’t subscribe to their group’s agenda. Luckily, groups formed from these individuals are often insular.

RI: Fiercely independent, they sometimes partake in actions that hurt themselves, others, or both, simply because they had the impulse to act. Prone to boredom, these people can be tempted into compliance through promises of wealth, power, or entertainment, but they can just as easily turn on their would-be benefactors for emotional reasons since they tend not to plan for the long term, instead preferring to “live for today”.

RN: Not necessarily fully independent nor fully subordinate, these people feel the old ways were better and will actively destroy anything that upsets them, which often includes anything they haven’t seen before. These people want to see things done the way they’ve always been done, and will resort to violence to prevent change. That said, these are very emotional and impulsive people, and they will sometimes band together out of loneliness or strike out alone over a petty disagreement. They lack the ambition and fine tastes of their more independent counterparts.

RS: These are the foot-soldiers of the powerful. Having fully given themselves over to a cause, they will kill others, sacrifice themselves, or even destroy the world for that cause. They often serve a master of some sort and come in mobs of passionate vigilantes, each wanting to mete out their vision of “justice” or “righteousness”, which is usually a variation of the “justice and righteousness” their leader preaches.

Lord Raziere
2019-10-01, 12:24 AM
I like how by reading it you realize the viewpoint is slanted towards someone's personal preference and therefore notice that the ordinary alignment chart is slanted to a personal preference as well.

Zanos
2019-10-01, 12:24 AM
This is the kind of alignment chart I would expect someone named Zhentarim to draft up, though. :wink:

Sunwitch
2019-10-01, 12:53 AM
what do you think are the advantages of using something like this, over an alignment-free system? is there some way it's expected to interact with the mechanics?

Luckmann
2019-10-01, 03:13 AM
Alternate Alignment ChartBut why.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Kurald Galain
2019-10-01, 03:42 AM
:miko: Detect Logic!

Luckmann
2019-10-01, 03:53 AM
:miko: Detect Logic!DM: It fails.
Player: What do you mean, "it fails"?
DM: It just... fails.

Zhentarim
2019-10-01, 09:18 AM
what do you think are the advantages of using something like this, over an alignment-free system? is there some way it's expected to interact with the mechanics?

Nah, its just a funny mirror version of alignment. I’m going to plop down another.



Legal Ambitious (B/W)
Legal Neutral (W/U)
Legal Complacent (W/G)


Neutral Ambitious (B/U)
True Neutral (U/U)
Neutral Complacent (U/G)


Illegal Ambitious (B/R)
Illegal Neutral (U/R)
Illegal Complacent (G/R)



and another



Logical Progressive (U/U)
Neutral Progressive (B/U)
Rash Progressive (R/U)


Logical Neutral (W/U)
True Neutral (B/W)
Rash Neutral (R/W)


Logical Conservative (U/G)
Neutral Conservative (B/G)
Rash Conservative (G/R)




I’ve identified 20 distinct charts (5 mtg mono vs allied mtg enemies, 5 mtg allies vs mono enemy, 5 mtg allies vs paired enemy mtg colors, 5 paired enemy mtg colors vs mtg allies)

Psyren
2019-10-01, 09:58 AM
You should probably take a step back and articulate some of your goals before launching into the change itself. e.g. what prompted you to make this, what does this system do that you feel regular alignment does poorly or is missing and how do you expect it to interact with some basic systems like detect, smite, subtypes, descriptors etc.

weckar
2019-10-01, 10:04 AM
I don't think these are meant to be used in play, Psyren. That's not the jive I am getting, anyway.

LordHavelock
2019-10-01, 01:30 PM
Usually saying the quiet part out loud isn't this overwrought.

Demonstrative of a very limber mind though; kudos for betraying your own antipathy there, OP.

Sepulchritude
2019-10-01, 01:36 PM
Oh wow the edge. I think we're all bleeding now.

Fam, I suggest you stop with the mtg colors if you're going to just use them to show off how 'dark' and 'dangerous' you are. The really intense lionizing of "screw you; got mine" already does the job.

Zhentarim
2019-10-01, 01:40 PM
I don't think these are meant to be used in play, Psyren. That's not the jive I am getting, anyway.

Actually, these can be used for play...it creates 20 different philosophies rather than 9 and gives each one of the 20 a positive example.

The downside will be replacing the simple 4 alignment domains with 60 domains for each of these new alignments I’ve added—though I could take a shortcut and just do the colors individually.

LordHavelock
2019-10-01, 03:26 PM
Actually, these can be used for play...it creates 20 different philosophies rather than 9 and gives each one of the 20 a positive example.

The downside will be replacing the simple 4 alignment domains with 60 domains for each of these new alignments I’ve added—though I could take a shortcut and just do the colors individually.

You've only really got 5 unique alignments there, and the rest are variations on something unplayable.

EisenKreutzer
2019-10-01, 03:36 PM
Is there a particular issue you are trying to fix, or that inspired you to do this?

Zhentarim
2019-10-04, 12:04 AM
Is there a particular issue you are trying to fix, or that inspired you to do this?

Well, I have always liked “philosophy-powered” characters like clerics, paladins, antipaladins, ect, but always found the traditional alignment system flawed and and a little too 2-dimensional.

Then, I came across the guilds of Ravnica in mtg, and also the following three sources:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190105112926/http://sarpadianempiresvol-viii.tumblr.com/tagged/alignment

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?174163-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-Now-With-More-Green

https://medium.com/s/story/the-mtg-color-wheel-c9700a7cf36d

I thought I could expand upon and improve upon the basics provided there—ie—fill in the blanks those three links don’t cover. Then, I’ll try it in a real game.