Could Xykon make himself unstoppable?

[gellerche]

Apologies if this has already been asked - I couldn't find it. Back when Xykon fought uber-V, he bragged about using fire spells at point-blank range and placing an enchantment beforehand to give himself immunity to fire. In Start Of Darkness he made himself immune to positive energy. Rule-wise, is there anything to stop him from cataloging every method of damage and then just deciding to make himself immune to them?

(I guess an adventurer could get around that with a Wish spell, but I don't even know if those are still part of D & D)

Thanks!

[2.5 cats]

The OotS rules set is "D&D 3.5 except when it isn't." That said, AFAIK there's no spell or enchantment that makes you immune to all (magical) melee damage, ditto force damage.

Adding that Xykon's weak spot may not be so much himself but his phylactery, currently in the hands of Redcloak.

[The Pilgrim]

Rule-wise, is there anything to stop him from cataloging every method of damage and then just deciding to make himself immune to them?

Yes. Hitting him repeatedly with a big, blunt object wielded by someone with enough strenght to overcome Xykon's DR, until his bones are shattered.

Roy's Standard Procedure.

[D.One]

Yes. Hitting him repeatedly with a big, blunt object wielded by someone with enough strenght to overcome Xykon's DR, until his bones are shattered.

Roy's Standard Procedure.

I think Roy might get offended with you calling his sword blunt. It's a sword, afterall.

[KorvinStarmast]

IIRC, Durkon cast disruption (Disrupting weapon?) on Roy's sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)before the first battle with Xykon in DCF. I suspect that it would still work, but there is also the matter of Durkon's DC versus Xykon's save? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)


I am not sure if at this point Durkon's spell caster level compares enough to Xykon's HD, so maybe Rich was not using a literal RAW spell for that "one hit will utterly destroy you (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html)" bit.

As I read through disruption and disrupting weapon in the SRD, it would seem that Xykon's HD might be high enough to preent that "one hit and you die" (on a failed save) from taking place.


I think Roy might get offended with you calling his sword blunt. It's a sword, afterall. And it has that neat green glow that does more damage to undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) ...

[Emanick]

IIRC, Durkon cast disruption (Disrupting weapon?) on Roy's sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html)before the first battle with Xykon in DCF. I suspect that it would still work, but there is also the matter of Durkon's DC versus Xykon's save? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

I know you said you read the description, but just so that everyone else is on the same page, it seems pretty obvious that Durkon's Disrupting Weapon spell would have accomplished precisely nothing, and will have no chance of doing so in the foreseeable future, either. The spell can only affect undead whose Hit Dice do not surpass the caster's level, and as Durkon has never been of comparable level to Xykon (and presumably never will be), Xykon would remain unaffected by the spell.

IIRC, we do not see Roy and Durkon planning to use it at any later point, including during the Battle of Azure City, so presumably at some point they figured out that it wouldn't work and moved on to more realistic tactics.

To address the OP's question, no, there's no way to make yourself immune to all damage, but there is an insanely powerful epic ring that gives you complete immunity to the five "major" types of energy in D&D 3.x: acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. However, it would take Xykon about six years and over a million gold to craft, and he would have to be level 32 in order to take the feat you need to make it - and he would have to sacrifice enough XP to drop 2-3 levels - so it's really, really unlikely that he would be both able and willing to craft it. It's also sufficiently powerful and rare that it probably doesn't exist even on the Outer Planes, so he's unlikely to be able to acquire it by other means.

[Quartz]

Rule-wise, is there anything to stop him from cataloging every method of damage and then just deciding to make himself immune to them?

He could use an Epic spell to give him sufficient DR against everything. There's an Epic magic item called the Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity which grants immunity to the five basic damage types; it would not be unreasonable to extend the enchantments to positive and negative energy. In 5E - and maybe 3E - there's a spell called Invulnerability which - naturally - makes the caster invulnerable.

[CriticalFailure]

I wonder if Redcloak taking Tsukkiko's ring is supposed to be/will be a reference to that. It seems like it was supposed to be, at least.

[Emanick]

He could use an Epic spell to give him sufficient DR against everything. There's an Epic magic item called the Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity which grants immunity to the five basic damage types; it would not be unreasonable to extend the enchantments to positive and negative energy.

Yes. Yes, it would be unreasonable. The item is broken enough as it is. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

Apologies if this has already been asked - I couldn't find it. Back when Xykon fought uber-V, he bragged about using fire spells at point-blank range and placing an enchantment beforehand to give himself immunity to fire. In Start Of Darkness he made himself immune to positive energy. Rule-wise, is there anything to stop him from cataloging every method of damage and then just deciding to make himself immune to them?

(I guess an adventurer could get around that with a Wish spell, but I don't even know if those are still part of D & D)

Thanks!

There are some mechanical tricks that do that. Being an undead half-dragon troll with rings of fire and acid immunity makes you immune to all damage, for instance.

The thing is, Xykon is a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. Sorcerers are based around Charisma, a large component of which is self-confidence (or arrogance.) Xykon never thinks he is going to lose, and doesn't take crazy prepared tricks because he doesn't think he needs them. His confidence is in his own power, like Tarquin's is in his ability to predict the world's actions (or Elan's belief that the world is fun despite it being a horror show.)

Xykon only became a Lich after he lost, and only because he lost in what he considered a cheap way and not in a head to head conflict. He wouldn't use polymorph tricks to be invincible because he is certain he is going to win.

[Anymage]

(I guess an adventurer could get around that with a Wish spell, but I don't even know if those are still part of D & D)Thanks!

In theory enough gold invested in a stupid powerful magic item could do the trick, although at that point you have a massive vulnerability if that thing gets sundered or disjunctioned. Epic magic could likewise do the trick (especially with Rich giving epic spells a big boost), but then you have vulnerability to epic dispels.

More importantly, though, is that Xykon already thinks he has protection from everything. His phylactery means that he can regenerate if anything destroys his body, and as far as big X is concerned that thing is behind obscene layers of defenses in an outpost hidden in the depths of the astral plane. He has a respawn point as a template feature. So while key items can keep him from having to tap out of a fight early, there's no need to spend that much gold and/or XP when death isn't a forever deal for him.

[RatElemental]

If he did manage to do that, then if there aren't already Maruts hunting him down, there sure as hell would be then. Inevitables will never stop until their mission is complete, and the longer you keep doing whatever it is that pissed them off (in this case, cheating death) the bigger and more powerful ones will be created specifically to kill you, personally.

Assuming inevitables and by extension maruts even exist in oots, anyway.

[Reboot]

...and he would have to sacrifice enough XP to drop 2-3 levels...

Wait, I thought a basic rule of 3.5 was that you couldn't spend so much XP that you dropped a level. (e.g., if you are at [level]+4999 XP, you couldn't cast Wish, which has a minimum XP cost of 5k).

[Emanick]

Wait, I thought a basic rule of 3.5 was that you couldn't spend so much XP that you dropped a level. (e.g., if you are at [level]+4999 XP, you couldn't cast Wish, which has a minimum XP cost of 5k).

I've never played at a high enough level in 3.5 that it was an issue, so I was going off what somebody else had told me about the relevant rule. I've just double-checked and you're right, the rule does seem to be that you can't spend enough XP on item creation to lose a level. I apologize for the misinformation

That means that, in order to craft a Ring of Universal Energy Immunity, you would either need to be level 87 in order to spend 86,400 XP to craft it without dropping, or you would need to have a DM who permitted you to spend the XP in increments over the six or so years it took to make the item (or seven months, if you have the Efficient Item Creation epic feat). I think the XP-incrementing option is sort of reasonable, but since in my opinion the item shouldn't even exist, if I was DMing I probably still wouldn't allow it.

Still, if you consider the latter interpretation a possibility in-universe, I guess it's still possible that Xykon made himself one.

[HorizonWalker]

I've never played at a high enough level in 3.5 that it was an issue, so I was going off what somebody else had told me about the relevant rule. I've just double-checked and you're right, the rule does seem to be that you can't spend enough XP on item creation to lose a level. I apologize for the misinformation

That means that, in order to craft a Ring of Universal Energy Immunity, you would either need to be level 87 in order to spend 86,400 XP to craft it without dropping, or you would need to have a DM who permitted you to spend the XP in increments over the six or so years it took to make the item (or seven months, if you have the Efficient Item Creation epic feat). I think the XP-incrementing option is sort of reasonable, but since in my opinion the item shouldn't even exist, if I was DMing I probably still wouldn't allow it.

Still, if you consider the latter interpretation a possibility in-universe, I guess it's still possible that Xykon made himself one.

It's mentioned that you can postpone leveling up even when you have enough XP for it, specifically for the purposes of spending XP on stuff.

[Emanick]

It's mentioned that you can postpone leveling up even when you have enough XP for it, specifically for the purposes of spending XP on stuff.

Oh, so it is possible after all - thanks for letting me know! I wasn't able to find the rules on that online, and I gave away my 3.5 books a while ago.

[SlashDash]

Surely if there was a way for someone to be immune to everything, than all top scale villains and heroes would have done that by now.

No such thing.


Besides, we clearly know that Xykon isn't immune to everything. They did defeat him at the first dungeon. He blow up from the gate's defenses.

They simply didn't think about his phylactery - which they clearly are aware of now.

[Riftwolf]

Wait, did he get immunity to positive energy? I thought the crux of the fight was Right-Eye getting a positive energy weapon that would allow sneak attacks to undead
As for disrupting weapon; Roy and Durkon *believed* that spell would work. They didn't know Xykon would be retro-boosted by 10-15 levels, and luckily the story worked out such that the spell was never tested.

[CriticalFailure]

Wait, did he get immunity to positive energy? I thought the crux of the fight was Right-Eye getting a positive energy weapon that would allow sneak attacks to undead



He got a ring that gave protection from positive energy because he knew Right-Eye had the dagger.

[The MunchKING]

Surely if there was a way for someone to be immune to everything, than all top scale villains and heroes would have done that by now.

I dunno… Being a Lich he's already immune to a lot of stuff. And he's got elemental immunity rings to prevent the few types of elemental damage he IS vulnerable to. That leaves pretty much blunt force trauma (Good luck overcoming that 15 DR for much damage) or Force Damage (good luck doing anything with 1d4 +1 per two levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm)).

[Traab]

On the plus side, if he has gear making him immune to various types of damage, that makes it vulnerable to being destroyed. If he became a demilich they would be in deep trouble as he no longer needs to have his gear anywhere near the fight scene to get the benefit from it.

[Riftwolf]

On the plus side, if he has gear making him immune to various types of damage, that makes it vulnerable to being destroyed. If he became a demilich they would be in deep trouble as he no longer needs to have his gear anywhere near the fight scene to get the benefit from it.

I don't see Xykon turning demilich, he likes his toe bones too much.

[Traab]

I don't see Xykon turning demilich, he likes his toe bones too much.

True, he enjoys the trolling having a full body allows him to do, I just felt like mentioning it could be worse, dude is a post epic level lich after all, there is only so much further he can go as he is before the idea might reach him. Like, if he loses another major fight but survives the extra power might be seductive enough so that he decides he only really needs to be a hand to flip people off.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The positive energy or something from ghost martyr paladin Soon seemed to be working pretty well. Sure, that was the positive energy or something from an epic level paladin turned into a templated ghost martyr creature. so there might not be a reasonable way for any of Xykon's current adversaries to overcome his protection in the same way. But there is a way to damage him with it.

[woweedd]

If he did manage to do that, then if there aren't already Maruts hunting him down, there sure as hell would be then. Inevitables will never stop until their mission is complete, and the longer you keep doing whatever it is that pissed them off (in this case, cheating death) the bigger and more powerful ones will be created specifically to kill you, personally.

Assuming inevitables and by extension maruts even exist in oots, anyway.
They do not. Inevitables are Pathfinder-specific. That said, doing such a thing would probably piss off the wrong people.

[hamishspence]

Inevitables predate Pathfinder considerably - they're in the 3.5MM and the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm

[Ganonphile]

Could Xykon stop make himself unstoppable against the OotS? Pretty easily.


V: Spell resistance stops a majority of V's spells, and Improved Spell Resistance (I think that's the feat's name from the Book of Vile Darkness) is in use in this game. In addition, a ring of Elemental Immunity plus shield stops the rest. The only spell not stopped by all this is Orb of Force, which we haven't seen V cast, so the Giant might now be allowing the Orbs (they are a little busted).
Hailey: Undead are immune to sneak dice (without a spell or using PF rules), so that's most of Haley's schtick. Spell resistance stops her wands just like it stops V. And his DR stops most of her regular arrow damage (liches have DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic). She'd need blunt arrows, which use nonlethal damage, which undead are immune to.
Roy: If Xykon knows about Roy's nasty, nasty toy, then he might have searched out the spell Ironguard! It lasts rounds per level (though easily long enough for combat with the Order) and makes him immune to ALL magical metals. These stops Roy in his tracks. If he hasn't done this, then Roy is probably his greatest foe.
Elan: Undead are immune to mind-affecting magics. He might be able to do more than 15 points of damage with an attack if his prestige class's quips aren't mind-affecting. However, Ironguard would stop the chaos saber.
Durkon: Ironguard stops Durkon's melee and ranged attacks like it stops Roy (if he has it). Elemental immunity stops the electricity damage. He might not be immune to positive energy damage, but they all encounter Spell Resistance, so Durkon is most likely out.
Belkar: Belkar doesn't do enough damage (most likely) with his daggers to overcome damage resistance. He's probably out.


So, Ironguard, a Ring of Greater Energy Immunity, and Improved Spell Resistance and Shield. That's all Xykon needs to be immune to the Order's shenanigans.

[RatElemental]

(good luck doing anything with 1d4 +1 per two levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm)).

That's an average of 17.5 force damage, so probably not enough yeah.

Good thing there are better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shout.htm) options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shoutGreater.htm). And more besides if you look beyond core, but I can't link those due to them not being SRD.

[The MunchKING]

Inevitables predate Pathfinder considerably - they're in the 3.5MM and the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm

I know they were in AD&D, I'm not sure about before that...

[Peelee]

They do not. Inevitables are Pathfinder-specific. That said, doing such a thing would probably piss off the wrong people.

With a comment like that, corrections are inevitable.:smallcool:

[Reboot]

Good thing there are better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shout.htm) options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shoutGreater.htm). And more besides if you look beyond core, but I can't link those due to them not being SRD.

Greater Shout would be better for Elan than V (Sixth Level vs EIGHTH level), but I don't think we've ever seen him use a damage-dealing spell...

[Schroeswald]

Greater Shout would be better for Elan than V (Sixth Level vs EIGHTH level), but I don't think we've ever seen him use a damage-dealing spell...
But he doesn't know any 6th level spells, not till level 16 Bard, and he's not made it there yet, as far as we know he's level 14 in Bard, while V as a level 16 evoker can cast 2+1 8th level spells, and Greater Shout is an evocation, and V had a good chance to get spells in Tinkertown that she used to buy at least one other 8th level spell (and has only gotten for free from leveling 3 of the possible 4 8th level spells he could have taken then).

[RatElemental]

Greater Shout would be better for Elan than V (Sixth Level vs EIGHTH level), but I don't think we've ever seen him use a damage-dealing spell...

Bards only go to 6th level spells, and have a limited number of spells known. It's actually more convenient for a wizard to burn 8th slots than a bard to burn 6th.

[Schroeswald]

Bards only go to 6th level spells, and have a limited number of spells known. It's actually more convenient for a wizard to burn 8th slots than a bard to burn 6th.
I probably could have just said this instead of my long winded thing above, so yeah, all of this.

[The MunchKING]

That's an average of 17.5 force damage, so probably not enough yeah.

Good thing there are better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shout.htm) options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shoutGreater.htm). And more besides if you look beyond core, but I can't link those due to them not being SRD.

I thought Sonic, was one of the damage types you could ward yourself against and make magic items to give you immunity to.

[Riftwolf]

With a comment like that, corrections are inevitable.:smallcool:

Think it's one of the CR1 inevitables, the one that peevishly corrects factual errors, but if you don't revise them, they'll kill you.

[Schroeswald]

I thought Sonic, was one of the damage types you could ward yourself against and make magic items to give you immunity to.

No one ever protects themselves against sonic damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html).So yes, but also no

[Aeson]

No one ever protects themselves against sonic damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1118.html).
Further support for the idea that nobody protects themselves against sonic damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)

[Ghosty]

I wonder if Redcloak taking Tsukkiko's ring is supposed to be/will be a reference to that. It seems like it was supposed to be, at least.

It's at least a reference that RC is now immune to one of Xykon's favorite spells. Which, when RC inevitably turns on him. might bamboozle X long enough for something else to get the necessary shots in.

Sphere of Annihilation is considered proprietary, right? Ditto with Deck of Many Things? Just trying to think of some out of the box ways to deal with X if he does make himself essentially invulnerable.

[The MunchKING]

The Sphere appeared one of the calendars, IIRC so he's not totally avoiding mentioning them.

[Emanick]

The Sphere appeared one of the calendars, IIRC so he's not totally avoiding mentioning them.

It's also mentioned in panel 8 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html).

[Ghosty]

It's also mentioned in panel 8 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html).

As commentary on 'Tomb of Horrors' with the shade of Dave Arneson. I would call literary criticism like that, well within the boundaries of fair use. A bit different than using that IP in one's own story.

But the Giant included it in his own calendar, so I guess it's fair game.

[Jasdoif]

Sphere of Annihilation is considered proprietary, right?
Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation)


Ditto with Deck of Many Things?
Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings)