Reckless Attack is Killing My Game

[Bjarkmundur]

This is more of a story than a thread looking for answers or suggestions, although I would love to hear if someone else has had a similar experience.

My barbarian player is without a doubt one of my more creative players, and recently that has been a problem. There's this philosophy in game design that states the most optimal way to play a game should also be the most fun. If a game becomes boring when played optimally the game's design is flawed. In other words; players should be able to follow the fun, and be rewarded for doing so, without feeling like they are "doing it wrong".

He loves doing all kinds of thing that aren't the attack action. He loves elbow-dropping from buildings, throwing goblins into their own traps, cause a cave-in etc. It's been so much fun to play with, and I'm really dreading the day he realizes that "he's doing it wrong". Hear me out:

Problem 1: How do I reward him for making the game fun?
I'm trying to honor the philosophy of "follow the fun", but with a Barbarian that has Reckless Attack I'm finding that exceedingly difficult. Most of the minor shenanigans and out-of-the-box tactics he pulls of can no longer be rewarded with advantage like I would for everyone else. For him, advantage has no value since he can get it whenever he wants through reckless attack. Assigning to him some "special" reward just because he's a barbarian feels equally wrong.

Problem 2: Barbarian raises the bar too high
The other problem is that with advantage, a Barbarian's attack action is ridiculously strong. This makes it really hard to rule his shenanigans (the "fun" action) to be more effective than just a plain ol' Attack Action. The Barbarian is so strong that all shenanigans usually pale in comparison unless I specifically create some houserules to accommodate him.

I'm scared that he'll eventually give up on trying so hard to find creative and fun uses for the environment I present to my players. If that happens, the optimal way to play the game has become boring; which I cannot allow to happen at my table.

TLDR:
The Barbarian's Attack Action is so strong, that doing anything other than the attack action becomes sub-optimal, which encourages the player to fall into a boring pattern by default. Having a go-to at-will attack is not a bad thing, but rewarding a barbarian for creativity is really hard when his base attack is so strong and advantage means nothing to him.

Throwing any additional bonuses on his shenanigans not only undermines the at-wills of other classes, it also means that he'll be contributing too much to combat encounters, potentially making the other players feel cheated.

[stoutstien]

-Grapple/shoving bypasses an enemy using dodge which would cancels out reckless.
-Advantage generally, is easy for any player to get. reckless comes on sooner than a lot of them but most classes will have a way of having Advantage most of the time.
-the Inspiration system would work well here.
- if the player on question is having fun and is being effective I don't see a problem. Optimization is an option not the standard. Should like you have a great player having a blast.

*The encounters them selves could be rewards. Give him stuff to smash into NPCs and environmental hazards aren'tgive him the proverbial folding chair.

[GlenSmash!]

Reckless Attack has a huge disadvantage. Namely Disadvantage advantage for attackers. It's extremely easy to hit a Recklessly attacking Barbarian. Now since they are Raging they can take a big hit, but where they really suffer is when taking a lot of hits.

The Barbarian is innately weak against hordes for this reason. Also Intellect Devourers, Hold Person, and Ranged Attackers.

Where they really shine is against high AC bosses that would likely hit them even if they had Disadvantage, like Giants.

[Nefariis]

Reckless attack is only strong at low levels, it balances out later when the implications of reckless attack become more substantial.

Reckless attack gives him one attack at advantage at the cost of every other attack against having advantage.

When baddies start having 3 melee attacks against him or multiple attacks at range, the scales really start to tip in the monsters' favor.

One attack at advantage is not worth 10 attacks against you at advantage - that's an instant death with focus fire considering the barbarian doesn't usually have the best AC on the team.

So if you want to provide him with some cool effects down the road, then maybe you could limit an attack or two against him at advantage -

"you body slam the guy and in doing so you create a human shield and each baddie archer can't get both of their attacks against you at advantage"

limiting the advantage attacks to 6 against vs 10 against might still keep him upright..... might....

[J-H]

If he's doing this stuff despite getting no mechanical advantage, then he's having fun with it already. Fun is its own reward. Maybe he gets to split falling damage with the enemy he drops on, etc. Let him have fun, have NPCs comment on his daring, etc. He doesn't need any extra rules help from you, and shouldn't get it since that might let him overshadow the rest of the party.

In my party of 6 (barb/fighter/rogue/rogue:fighter/cleric/sorc), the barbarian already does more damage and soaks more damage than any two players put together...

[Bjarkmundur]

-Grapple/shoving bypasses an enemy using dodge which would cancels out reckless.
What problem is this solving?


-Advantage generally, is easy for any player to get. reckless comes on sooner than a lot of them but most classes will have a way of having Advantage most of the time.
Huh, I didn't know that? Around what level does having advantage become the status quo?


-the Inspiration system would work well here.
You mean the system that gives advantage? Thankfully I did allow two other uses for inspiration, and increased the cap to 2. It is a solution, but one that must be use sparingly for it not to lose its meaning. I don't want inflation to ruin inspiration.


- if the player on question is having fun and is being effective I don't see a problem. Optimization is an option not the standard. Should like you have a great player having a blast.
All my players are a blast to play with, my goal is only to try to preserve their creative playstyles for as long as possible. It's only inevitable that they realize an extra attack with advantage will deal more damage than knocking the goblins' heads together.


The encounters them selves could be rewards. Give him stuff to smash into NPCs and environmental hazards aren't give him the proverbial folding chair.
I'll tell you that right now that having a group that interacts so readily with what I put in front of them really encourages me to make much more elaborate scenarios. It's definetly a win-win situation!

@Nefaris!
Thank you so much, reading this is such a relief! I'm not longer worried about the problem :D

@J-H
Yeah I was worried that if he ever sat down and gave it a thought, the Attack Action would be the "logical" action to take. I didn't want to give him any excuses to stop being so creative. I also don't want him completely overshadowing the other players. I'm lucky that he is always completely aware when another player is feeling like he's contributing less, and makes a point to complement him. "That Hold Person spell at the start was really what made the whole encounter go so well!" etc.
Once Reckless attack falls out of favor I can stop worriying. I can use my handy-dandy improvised damage tables, give him advantage on attack rolls, give him inspiration, and all that good stuff. It'll all balance out in a couple of levels :D


Make the fun part also the correct strategy to win

[Sharur]

Firstly, it seems he's having fun, you're having fun, and the rest of the

Secondly, if his "fun" actions have an "effective" value that is roughly equal to doing his weapon damage, then they are equivalent to an attack. It seems to me that his "fun antics" are more effective than a weapon attack. Throwing a goblin into their own trap usually takes out a goblin(much like a barbarian weapon attack often does), and as a bonus, might disable a trap as well. Collapsing a cave hits many more targets than a weapon attack. These things also give "attack bonuses", that compensate for the lack of advantage e.g. grappling a goblin to throw them is opposed by their poor strength score, as opposed to their rather good(for their CR) AC.

Thirdly, "Reckless Attack" is a tradeoff. Advantage on attack rolls for a turn, in exchange for having attacks against you have advantage . Generally, this trade is not in the Barbarian's favor, but the Barbarian gets to choose if and when to make this deal. Your player is choosing to never make the trade, and that's absolutely alright.

As the party faces more difficult foes, the barbarian will need to adjust his tactics (e.g.); that adjustment may or may not include usage of Reckless Attack.

From a mathematical perspective, Reckless Attack is best for:
a) when the barbarian is having trouble hitting the target
b) when the barbarian is not worried about being hit
c) when the barbarian is probably going to be hit regardless
d) when the barbarian needs to hit Right NOW! (e.g. fallen comrade, aura effect, other)
e) using Rage makes the math for Reckless Attack better, as their is more of an incentive to hit (bonus damage) and less of an incentive to be hit (damage is halved).

TLDR: Relax. All is well with the (game) world. Personally, with a barbarian, I would be more concerned with the usage (or lack their of) of the limited, expendable resource of rage than I would be about reckless attack.

[KorvinStarmast]

Reckless attack is only strong at low levels, it balances out later when the implications of reckless attack become more substantial.

Reckless attack gives him one attack at advantage at the cost of every other attack against having advantage.

When baddies start having 3 melee attacks against him or multiple attacks at range, the scales really start to tip in the monsters' favor.

One attack at advantage is not worth 10 attacks against you at advantage - that's an instant death with focus fire considering the barbarian doesn't usually have the best AC on the team.

So if you want to provide him with some cool effects down the road, then maybe you could limit an attack or two against him at advantage -

"you body slam the guy and in doing so you create a human shield and each baddie archer can't get both of their attacks against you at advantage"

limiting the advantage attacks to 6 against vs 10 against might still keep him upright..... might....

This post says most of what I have seen at the table. Nice one. (We are at level 13/14, my Barbarian friend and my Champion Fighter: whenever I can, I shove prone with shield master so he can attack with advantage without going reckless.

Re: Reckless Attack is Killing My Game

This is more of a story than a thread looking for answers or suggestions, although I would love to hear if someone else has had a similar experience.

What level are your players? At later Tier 2 and in Tier 3, RA loses some of its shine.

[PhantomSoul]

You can also look into the option of 'stacking' advantage -- e.g. +1 or +2 for levels after the first (and similarly -1 or -2 for disadvantage levels after the first). Alternatively, treat DM-granted inspiration/bonus like Bless, and give +1d4 instead of advantage (maybe framed as a special kind of advantage, for things keyed on advantage). Or if you skip advantage on the attack, you can use it on the damage (so roll the whole damage roll twice and take the highest value).

They can all have mechanical implications, but it's an option to consider if it's a concern.

[Amechra]

Honestly, it sounds like he's playing a Barbarian pretty optimally to me. Your examples sound like, respectively, a reckless attack (elbow drop!), a shove (which Rage grants advantage on), and a Strength (Athletics) check (which, again, Rage grants advantage on). You're running into issues because he's already being rewarded by his class.

As long as you aren't designing your encounters so that people have to deal optimal levels of damage, I doubt he'll ever have that poisonous epiphany.

[stoutstien]

What problem is this solving?


Huh, I didn't know that? Around what level does having advantage become the status quo?


You mean the system that gives advantage? Thankfully I did allow two other uses for inspiration, and increased the cap to 2. It is a solution, but one that must be use sparingly for it not to lose its meaning. I don't want inflation to ruin inspiration.


All my players are a blast to play with, my goal is only to try to preserve their creative playstyles for as long as possible. It's only inevitable that they realize an extra attack with advantage will deal more damage than knocking the goblins' heads together.


I'll tell you that right now that having a group that interacts so readily with what I put in front of them really encourages me to make much more elaborate scenarios. It's definetly a win-win situation!

@Nefaris!
Thank you so much, reading this is such a relief! I'm not longer worried about the problem :D

@J-H
Yeah I was worried that if he ever sat down and gave it a thought, the Attack Action would be the "logical" action to take. I didn't want to give him any excuses to stop being so creative. I also don't want him completely overshadowing the other players. I'm lucky that he is always completely aware when another player is feeling like he's contributing less, and makes a point to complement him. "That Hold Person spell at the start was really what made the whole encounter go so well!" etc.
Once Reckless attack falls out of favor I can stop worriying. I can use my handy-dandy improvised damage tables, give him advantage on attack rolls, give him inspiration, and all that good stuff. It'll all balance out in a couple of levels :D


Make the fun part also the correct strategy to win

I'd an enemy would use the dodge action they cause disadvantage on attacks against them. Reckless would cancel it out OR they could grapple and cancel it for the whole party.

Advantage/disadvantage start becoming prevalent entering tier 2. Most of the time they cancel out.

The Inspiration system is kinda blah as presented but handing out a floating d20 can have a huge impact on player behavior. Even if they forget they have them most of the time.

For an example of how a party can function just fine with sub optimized styles I have one table that always play the same class. They did a wrestling troupe of barbarians who had no trouble with encounters built for a standard party. They ended up challenging the nine hells in a tournament for a large pool of souls that they collected in a deal.

[AHF]

Some very good posts here but I'd just point out that if he does something cool that gives him advantage and allows him to avoid getting attacked at advantage that is a huge improvement from Reckless Attack. So all those Rule of Cool types of situations you want to reward are being rewarded by radically improving his defense relative to what it would be with Reckless Attack. Seems like a good reward to encourage that type of creativity.

[Vogie]

There's a huge difference between being bored and playing sub-optimally.

My Aarakocra Barbarian's character was incredibly optimized for combat... yet the most fun I had with him is when he wasn't acting in combat - Airlifting the gnome cleric to help the other half of the party, transporting children out of a war zone or supplies in.

If you want to mechanically make the barbarian have "more fun", you could design encounters to discourage "just hit with Axe" as a requirement to "play right". That could mean:

Use the minion mechanics to have encounters with massive numbers of creatures.
Encourage grappling as a mechanic. This could be allowing the player to grapple/throw more creatures than they'd normally do, or allow the barbarian to tap into the Battlerager mechanics regardless of their path.
An abundance of Stoneskin-style mechanics on creatures if there's few creatures.
Dark Souls/Shadow of the Colossus-style facing mechanics on certain massive monsters, which requires the barbarian to do things like frequently climb up buildings/cliffs and jump on the target to fight it.

[Gurifu]

You hear a scraping sound as Gurifu drags a soapbox into the thread and climbs up on it.

An encounter is a problem to be solved. Enemy hit points are an obstacle, not the problem itself. If you set up all your encounters so that the problem is to remove that one specific obstacle, then all your players will eventually figure out that their most optimal actions are the ones that deal the most DPR. Make your encounters about solving other problems, and let your players decide for themselves whether reducing one or more of the enemies to 0HP is the path they want to take to solve them.

You can get a lot of mileage out of 'You need to move A (PC, NPC, macguffin, etc)to B (place, NPC, etc) then do C (win condition) before D (loss condition).'

It'll also save you a lot of prep time otherwise invested into trying to balance encounters, because fights no longer have to be fair, as long as the problems you give the party are problems that can they can solve.

[GlenSmash!]

You hear a scraping sound as Gurifu drags a soapbox into the thread and climbs up on it.

An encounter is a problem to be solved. Enemy hit points are an obstacle, not the problem itself. If you set up all your encounters so that the problem is to remove that one specific obstacle, then all your players will eventually figure out that their most optimal actions are the ones that deal the most DPR. Make your encounters about solving other problems, and let your players decide for themselves whether reducing one or more of the enemies to 0HP is the path they want to take to solve them.

You can get a lot of mileage out of 'You need to move A (PC, NPC, macguffin, etc)to B (place, NPC, etc) then do C (win condition) before D (loss condition).'

It'll also save you a lot of prep time otherwise invested into trying to balance encounters, because fights no longer have to be fair, as long as the problems you give the party are problems that can they can solve.

Good rant.

Encounters that really on reducing the other side to 0HP tend to lose their steam (if they ever had any) in higher tiers of play.

[JackPhoenix]

Reckless Attack has a huge disadvantage. Namely Disadvantage.

You mean advantage for the enemies. If Reckless Attack made them attack the barbarian at disadvantage too.... heh.

[GlenSmash!]

You mean advantage for the enemies. If Reckless Attack made them attack the barbarian at disadvantage too.... heh.

You are obviously correct. :smallredface:

[MadBear]

Reckless attack is only strong at low levels, it balances out later when the implications of reckless attack become more substantial.

Reckless attack gives him one attack at advantage at the cost of every other attack against having advantage.

When baddies start having 3 melee attacks against him or multiple attacks at range, the scales really start to tip in the monsters' favor.

One attack at advantage is not worth 10 attacks against you at advantage - that's an instant death with focus fire considering the barbarian doesn't usually have the best AC on the team.

So if you want to provide him with some cool effects down the road, then maybe you could limit an attack or two against him at advantage -

"you body slam the guy and in doing so you create a human shield and each baddie archer can't get both of their attacks against you at advantage"

limiting the advantage attacks to 6 against vs 10 against might still keep him upright..... might....

Doesn't reckless attack give them advantage on all the attacks they make that turn? So at level 5 it's 2 attacks with advantage, or possibly 3 if they have GWM feat?

[GlenSmash!]

Doesn't reckless attack give them advantage on all the attacks they make that turn? So at level 5 it's 2 attacks with advantage, or possibly 3 if they have GWM feat?

This is correct.

"When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn."

[Misterwhisper]

The simple answer to this is numbers.

Against one big critter reckless attack is great.

Against 20 archers, it would be stupid.

The barbarian gets advantage on str based attacks so maybe 3 attacks.

However all the barbarians enemies get advantage to hit him with whatever.

Resistance to B/P/S is a much bigger issue that reckless attacks.

[Composer99]

I don't really see the issue here. As long as the barbarian is getting rewarded, whether through their own feelings of having fun or being awesome, or through extrinsic rewards that you as the DM are supplying, you don't need to do anything about Reckless Attack.

If you're specifically worried about the player getting bored by spamming Reckless Attack, then just make sure, as others have suggested, that your encounters, even combat ones, don't depend solely on PCs dealing damage to resolve the encounter in their favour.

[strangebloke]

Just pointing out that advantage on athletics is strong too. And if the party is still winning it isn't like he's ruining the game for everyone else.

Barbarian features (except rage) are pretty much all optional. You don't need reckless or unarmored AC or even fast movement.

[PhantomSoul]

Reckless Attack

Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.



Do note that it's only for the 1st, strength-based, melee weapon attack on his turn. Ranged attacks are out. Any melee attack after the first is out. Dexterity-based attacks are out. Using it when it's not his turn is out, like for Opportunity Attacks.

Grappling, Shoving, Tripping, etc. were never in because those are all Skill checks, not attacks.

ALL attacks against him have advantage. Ranged, Melee and Spell attacks are all 2d20, for any and all attackers until his next turn.


I'm mentioning all of that because it sounds like you're being too generous with what gives him Advantage. If he's collapsing ceilings down by shoving support structures that's a skill check. If he's punching them with his fist that's not a weapon attack.


If you have been overly generous, and need to change up some things, do speak with him out of game beforehand. You sound like an awesome DM and it can be difficult to tell our players that we've made a mistake.

You have to decide when you make the first attack, but you get the advantage for the whole turn.

[Throne12]

This is more of a story than a thread looking for answers or suggestions, although I would love to hear if someone else has had a similar experience.

My barbarian player is without a doubt one of my more creative players, and recently that has been a problem. There's this philosophy in game design that states the most optimal way to play a game should also be the most fun. If a game becomes boring when played optimally the game's design is flawed. In other words; players should be able to follow the fun, and be rewarded for doing so, without feeling like they are "doing it wrong".

He loves doing all kinds of thing that aren't the attack action. He loves elbow-dropping from buildings, throwing goblins into their own traps, cause a cave-in etc. It's been so much fun to play with, and I'm really dreading the day he realizes that "he's doing it wrong". Hear me out:

Problem 1: How do I reward him for making the game fun?
I'm trying to honor the philosophy of "follow the fun", but with a Barbarian that has Reckless Attack I'm finding that exceedingly difficult. Most of the minor shenanigans and out-of-the-box tactics he pulls of can no longer be rewarded with advantage like I would for everyone else. For him, advantage has no value since he can get it whenever he wants through reckless attack. Assigning to him some "special" reward just because he's a barbarian feels equally wrong.

Problem 2: Barbarian raises the bar too high
The other problem is that with advantage, a Barbarian's attack action is ridiculously strong. This makes it really hard to rule his shenanigans (the "fun" action) to be more effective than just a plain ol' Attack Action. The Barbarian is so strong that all shenanigans usually pale in comparison unless I specifically create some houserules to accommodate him.

I'm scared that he'll eventually give up on trying so hard to find creative and fun uses for the environment I present to my players. If that happens, the optimal way to play the game has become boring; which I cannot allow to happen at my table.

TLDR:
The Barbarian's Attack Action is so strong, that doing anything other than the attack action becomes sub-optimal, which encourages the player to fall into a boring pattern by default. Having a go-to at-will attack is not a bad thing, but rewarding a barbarian for creativity is really hard when his base attack is so strong and advantage means nothing to him.

Throwing any additional bonuses on his shenanigans not only undermines the at-wills of other classes, it also means that he'll be contributing too much to combat encounters, potentially making the other players feel cheated.
Um question is he doing all this stuff while he is Raging because while hes Raging he has advantage on strength checks and saves. So with his reckless attack and rage he has advantage on any thing that requires strength.

[/QUOTE]
Grappling
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a Special melee Attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them.

The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an Attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, you subject the target to the Grappled condition (see Conditions ). The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).

[Bjarkmundur]

Thank you all so much for your replies!

Yeah, I was worried about having a Barbarian so fed he wouldn't accept my treats, and I would therefor lose any chance of encouraging him to keep on with his shenanigans. Even after that I was afraid he would simply evolve out of his shenaniganesque playstyle into something more optimal (and boring). But since the downside of Reckless attack scales with level and some shenanigans will always remain relevant, I am no longer worried :D

Thank you guys for dragging my out of my overthinking anxious state of mind and reminding me that everything is fine because everyone is having fun ^^

[CTurbo]

Ironically, I think Reckless Attack as written, is weak after level 5. I actually houserule that Reckless Attack works with the entire Attack Action.


As far as Barbarians being boring... well they kinda are IMO. They lack useful things to do outside of combat which is why I LOVE the Ritual Caster feat for Barbs.

[stoutstien]

Ironically, I think Reckless Attack as written, is weak after level 5. I actually houserule that Reckless Attack works with the entire Attack Action.


As far as Barbarians being boring... well they kinda are IMO. They lack useful things to do outside of combat which is why I LOVE the Ritual Caster feat for Barbs.

It already does? And reaction attacks

[PhantomSoul]

Ironically, I think Reckless Attack as written, is weak after level 5. I actually houserule that Reckless Attack works with the entire Attack Action.

It does better than that already -- it works for all strength-based melee weapon attacks on your turn. The house rule is effectively a nerf, since it would exclude bonus action or reaction attacks on your turn!


e c k l e s s A t t a c k
Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern
for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When
you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide
to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on
melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this
turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until
your next turn.

[CTurbo]

LMAO wow it's funny how long I've been playing this game that I have had that feature wrong this whole time. I just read it carefully in the phb and you guys are right (obviously) lol

I thought it was just for the first attack this whole time. I'm definitely blaming my first DM who is the one that told me that and I just took his word for it without ever checking.

[GlenSmash!]

LMAO wow it's funny how long I've been playing this game that I have had that feature wrong this whole time. I just read it carefully in the phb and you guys are right (obviously) lol

I thought it was just for the first attack this whole time. I'm definitely blaming my first DM who is the one that told me that and I just took his word for it without ever checking.

I mean at least one poster in this thread quoted the rule and still got it wrong.


It's pretty easy to read wrong the way it is worded.

[GlenSmash!]

Reckless Attack

Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.



Do note that it's only for the 1st, strength-based, melee weapon attack on his turn

If it was only meant to apply to the first attack why in the text that you quoted does it specify attack rolls plural during this turn?

Edit: also Unarmed strikes are not attacks with weapons but they can be used to make "melee weapon attacks

"Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike"

[Marcloure]

I am not here to say your fun is wrong, but D&D is not made for that style of play. If you want a game where headbutting is as effective as stabbing with a sword, or where throwing an enemy at another is both fun and good, you should try Dungeon World.

[Maelynn]

recently that has been a problem

I'm really dreading the day he realizes that "he's doing it wrong"

I'm scared that he'll eventually give up on trying so hard to find creative and fun uses

Bjark, I wouldn't worry about this. From what you write it seems he's having a lot of fun with his character, and you enjoy it too. You state there's a problem, but the rest of your post doesn't list any actual occurring problems and only describe things you worry about that might happen. In Dutch there's a proverb that I haven't been able to find a decent English version of: to see bears on the road. It means that you worry about something that isn't a problem yet and might never even become one.

As for Reckless Attack, I didn't use it on my Barbarian at all because of the downside it had. I was more or less the tank in the group and really didn't want all attacks in a round to have advantage against me. I wish I could've come up with some of the things your player has, it sounds like I would've enjoyed my character even more (not that I didn't, I still regret the day I had to retire him).


An encounter is a problem to be solved. Enemy hit points are an obstacle, not the problem itself. If you set up all your encounters so that the problem is to remove that one specific obstacle, then all your players will eventually figure out that their most optimal actions are the ones that deal the most DPR. Make your encounters about solving other problems, and let your players decide for themselves whether reducing one or more of the enemies to 0HP is the path they want to take to solve them.

You can get a lot of mileage out of 'You need to move [B]A (PC, NPC, macguffin, etc)to B (place, NPC, etc) then do C (win condition) before D (loss condition).'

This is very insightful, thank you for that. I don't have an issue with boring dime-a-dozen encounters, but I never looked at them this way. It's already given me some inspiration for alternative encounters. :)

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

It sounds like you've gotten your answer together but this is something I do every 3-4 levels or so. (I just realized I should do it when proficiency changes...) It helps even more when the things they are trying to do take multiple turns.

I calculate the average damage each player does per attack. Combine them all together, then average them out. Then I consult the chart in my head that looks about like this.

Damage lost per attack opportunity=7

Minimal Risk *1
Medium Risk *1.5
High Risk *2
Deadly Risk *3
Hits Multiple Enemies *.5

So For example if a lvl 5 fighter spends 3 turns climbing a tower to jump off and try and behead the young dragon I'm going to let that attack deal (7*6)*2=84 Damage, If he hits, if he doesn't hit then he falls prone next to a dragon taking xd6 damage. Not instantly deadly but not the situation you want to be in.

[Bjarkmundur]

It sounds like you've gotten your answer together but this is something I do every 3-4 levels or so. (I just realized I should do it when proficiency changes...) It helps even more when the things they are trying to do take multiple turns.

I calculate the average damage each player does per attack. Combine them all together, then average them out. Then I consult the chart in my head that looks about like this.

Damage lost per attack opportunity=7

Minimal Risk *1
Medium Risk *1.5
High Risk *2
Deadly Risk *3
Hits Multiple Enemies *.5

So For example if a lvl 5 fighter spends 3 turns climbing a tower to jump off and try and behead the young dragon I'm going to let that attack deal (7*6)*2=84 Damage, If he hits, if he doesn't hit then he falls prone next to a dragon taking xd6 damage. Not instantly deadly but not the situation you want to be in.

That's genius!

[darknite]

Reckless attack becomes dangerous. I use it with PCs that can evade following attacks using reach attacks with polearms, disengaging or mobility where possible. HP are the currency of D&D and even when you're raging, losing HP can be a big deal as recovering them (especially in-combat) can be quite hard.

[Particle_Man]

I think the other side of reckless attack hasn’t been noted. I see it not only as advantage (with a price tag) but also as a silver lining ability - if your enemies already have advantage on attacks against you for another reason even if you do not reckless attack, then you might as well reckless attack because now it gives you advantage with no price tag.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can always give him an intelligent magic item that with a sense of humour that can buff/heal him.

I see no problem with your examples and he is playing optimality. Sounds like tons of strength checks for me, which rage give advantage for. Grapple and shove are attacks so they will preserve his rage before he will be able to get the level 14/15(don't remember) rage that not end before his time.

[crayzz]

I feel like a lot of this thread is a little off base. The OP is about a barbarian who takes creative actions but can't be effectively rewarded for creativity since the usual reward (advantage) comes too easily to a barbarian.

And it's true that reckless attack has a serious cost, but the reward for creativity shouldn't automatically be advantage. Like one of the examples was "throwing a goblin into their own trap." That doesn't need advantage, that's tactically valuable in itself: it removes a goblin from the encounter and nullifies a trap.

Another example was elbow dropping an enemy. IMO unless you're proficient with unarmed strikes, that technique should be strictly worse than a normal attack action. But if the player insists on it, the reward should be in the narrative: the description of the Orc collapsing under the sheer might of the People's Elbow and the shock on the onlookers faces when such an unorthodox technique succeeds.

You shouldn't always focus on making the numbers bigger: tactics and narrative are also big levers you can use to reward (and punish!) players for unorthodox actions.

[Shabbazar]

So maybe I'm missing something...

Reckless Attack gives advantage, but the emphasis on reckless also gives attackers advantage against the barbarian. So if you reward the barbarian for creativity by giving him advantage but he does not incur the detriment of his attackers getting advantage, how is this not a reward?

You are giving him a reward in that the mechanism for the barbarian getting advantage does not also give his foes advantage.

Right?

[jaappleton]

This is more of a story than a thread looking for answers or suggestions, although I would love to hear if someone else has had a similar experience.

My barbarian player is without a doubt one of my more creative players, and recently that has been a problem. There's this philosophy in game design that states the most optimal way to play a game should also be the most fun. If a game becomes boring when played optimally the game's design is flawed. In other words; players should be able to follow the fun, and be rewarded for doing so, without feeling like they are "doing it wrong".

He loves doing all kinds of thing that aren't the attack action. He loves elbow-dropping from buildings, throwing goblins into their own traps, cause a cave-in etc. It's been so much fun to play with, and I'm really dreading the day he realizes that "he's doing it wrong". Hear me out:

Problem 1: How do I reward him for making the game fun?
I'm trying to honor the philosophy of "follow the fun", but with a Barbarian that has Reckless Attack I'm finding that exceedingly difficult. Most of the minor shenanigans and out-of-the-box tactics he pulls of can no longer be rewarded with advantage like I would for everyone else. For him, advantage has no value since he can get it whenever he wants through reckless attack. Assigning to him some "special" reward just because he's a barbarian feels equally wrong.

Problem 2: Barbarian raises the bar too high
The other problem is that with advantage, a Barbarian's attack action is ridiculously strong. This makes it really hard to rule his shenanigans (the "fun" action) to be more effective than just a plain ol' Attack Action. The Barbarian is so strong that all shenanigans usually pale in comparison unless I specifically create some houserules to accommodate him.

I'm scared that he'll eventually give up on trying so hard to find creative and fun uses for the environment I present to my players. If that happens, the optimal way to play the game has become boring; which I cannot allow to happen at my table.

TLDR:
The Barbarian's Attack Action is so strong, that doing anything other than the attack action becomes sub-optimal, which encourages the player to fall into a boring pattern by default. Having a go-to at-will attack is not a bad thing, but rewarding a barbarian for creativity is really hard when his base attack is so strong and advantage means nothing to him.

Throwing any additional bonuses on his shenanigans not only undermines the at-wills of other classes, it also means that he'll be contributing too much to combat encounters, potentially making the other players feel cheated.

Are you my DM? :smalltongue:

As a Barbarian player, I've done stuff like that constantly. And I didn't expect it to out-damage my normal attacks, but I played a big dumb half orc with 6 Int, and it was a blast to 'role play during combat' by coming up with shenanigans.

My DM found the best way to reward such things was... exactly what it says to do in the book:

Inspiration.

And I wasn't rewarded Inspiration for every silly thing I did. But when I did something, knowing full well that it wasn't the most 'optimal' thing to do (and especially when it'd put my character at risk), my DM would give me inspiration here and there for it.

[Segev]

Most of what is described in the OP has effects that you can't get from attacking. Throwing goblins into traps (their own or not) means they take trap effect; this can easily include immobilization (something damage only does if it KOs the target). My party's barbarian likes to throw my enemies over cliffs and the like whenever they're available.

Basically, keep doing what you're doing. If you ever feel like he's being sub-optimal by doing something "fun," consider what it is he's actually trying to accomplish. It probably is something that has an effect beyond (or different from) "damage." Enable and empower that. He will consider the ability to do things that are not technically codified by game rules in an explicit manner its own reward.