"Warforged" Changeling

[ShurikVch]

From the Simple RAW Thread for 3.5:
Q 258

Can Changeling with Racial Emulation feat shift into Warforged and take [warforged] feats?
If yes - would those feats work in other shapes too?
If no - why?


And, once again, bump Q 250 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24174715&postcount=498) (although Q 216 was anwered)
Racial Emulation only lets you emulate humanoids.
Yes, I know it; but Warforged can become a Humanoid without stopping being Warforged (IIRR, three different ways).
So, can Changeling emulate Humanoid Warforged and take [warforged] feats?
No. There's no such race as "humanoid warforged".
Yes.
There is just "Warforged", and it stays "Warforged" - regardless of TypeThere is my logic:
Corrupted Warforged is still Warforged - despite being Aberration.
Drowned Warforged is still Warforged - despite being Undead.
Unseelie Warforged is still Warforged - despite being Fey.

So what's we have for Humanoid type?
At the very least - Incarnate Construct template, and Greater Humanoid Essence spell. Make your choice!

Thus, Warforged who're Humanoid is, apparently, a thing.
Because of this - Changeling with Racial Emulation can take their form, and qualify for [warforged] feats.

"But wait!.." - may you say - "Doesn't Minor Change Shape specifying it should produce only natural, unaltered forms - no templates etc?"
Well... It doesn't!

"No templates" rule, actually, stems from the RAW for Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) spell (on which based Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange):
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype., Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm):
A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template., and Change Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape):
A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template.

But Minor Change Shape, actually, isn't based on any of them; it's based on completely different spell - Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm):
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion. Do you see the prohibition for templates?
It's because it isn't there!

While, say, Adamantine Spider with Greater Humanoid Essence would be way beyond the vague scope of Disguise Self, Warforged looks like it should work just fine.
I asked the question: is there some obscure RAW which will actually prevent it?

[Thurbane]

Not sure about RAW, but it seems a stretch to me.

Relying on a certain combo of template + base creature to exist somewhere for your ability to work seems wonky.

I know RAI can never be cited with certainty, but to me, the obvious intent of the Changeling ability is to emulate natively Humanoid creatures only.

[Falontani]

I have a similar issue; planetouched races are outsiders. Except from the forgotten realms we have the Lesser Planetouched, which are the outsider versions, but with a bit of stuff shaved off and their type changed to humanoid.

As to the question:
1. Does it work by RAW? I would say yes, however it's so far up the creek that it is stupidly arguable. This is akin to the Dragonwrought true Dragon debate. The RAW is out, and it can be read both ways.
2. Can you take the Warforged Feats? If it is ruled as RAW then you can... As long as you remain in your weird Warforged form. And meet the other prerequisites. Meaning mithril body and the like are going to be... Difficult. And at this point there are very few cases where it is beneficial to continue on as a Changeling regardless.
3. Is this RAI? no. You've got to be joking if you think it is. Taking dwarven defender and eye of gruumsh probably also isn't RAI. So your alone there.
4. Can I argue with my dm? You can, but you shouldn't. This is so far out there I wouldn't suggest using it in a real group. Ever.

[RedWarlock]

Considering those altered warforged are the results of specific prestige classes, and thus exceedingly rare, I’d say it’s allowed, but only if the changeling in question knows of or has met such an individual.

[Afghanistan]

Considering those altered warforged are the results of specific prestige classes, and thus exceedingly rare, I’d say it’s allowed, but only if the changeling in question knows of or has met such an individual.

Considering that you do not need to know the person to disguise yourself as them, or the person you are disguising yourself doesn't even have to exist, I think this is a rather selective ruling in this regard.

That said, while I think this interpretation is a stretch to say the least, I can't exactly disagree with it. It can be argued either way. Consult your local DM before applying this cheese.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For reference:

Racial Emulation
Benefit: When you use your minor change shape ability to assume
the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that
humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's
traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other
purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race,
for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise
checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise
skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only
emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger
subtype.

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action.

Disguise SelfYou make yourself—including clothing, armor,
weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or
taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise,
the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a
minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form,
nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties
of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise
check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an
illusion.

First of all, Racial Emulation doesn't say anything about qualifying for feats, so the answer is automatically no unless your DM specifically rules otherwise.

Second, pretty much every ability that allows you to take the form of another creature says you can't take the form of a templated creature by default, it's always a typical member of a given race. That sets a precedent for which the above abilities provide no exception.

Third, you're naming metagame concepts which your character would have absolutely no knowledge of. Since whatever you change into is a conscious effort made in-character, using out-of-character knowledge of game concepts to do so is completely invalid. You could say you're changing into "a Warforged who's been turned to flesh" but that would defeat the purpose of becoming an Adamantine Body Warforged.

Finally, you're proposing something that takes your 1st level feat, and Adamantine Body can only be taken at 1st level, as though you were created that way. You can't be born a Changeling, take Racial Emulation as your 1st level feat, assume the form of a Warforged that's somehow become humanoid, and then take a feat that says you've been constructed from Adamantine this entire time.

You've clearly started this thread to fish for the answer you want, rather than an actually correct answer. It's not going to happen, because your trick doesn't work at all, by both RAW and RAI, and even if it was somehow legit, no DM in their right mind would ever allow it.

[Falontani]

First of all, Racial Emulation doesn't say anything about qualifying for feats, so the answer is automatically no unless your DM specifically rules otherwise.
Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).

Fortunately you are misinformed of that first point. It would truly be a terrible feat, and make Changeling much weaker as a race than the competitive power house it is now.


Second, pretty much every ability that allows you to take the form of another creature says you can't take the form of a templated creature by default, it's always a typical member of a given race. That sets a precedent for which the above abilities provide no exception.

A precedent for a ruling is good, however specific trumps general, and each of those cases are specific, meaning without the specific it can be assumed to be a general rule that you can. However this precedent should allow a dm that doesn't like this ruling to rule otherwise without blatantly disregarding the rules of the game. Puts this in obscure ruling territory.


Third, you're naming metagame concepts which your character would have absolutely no knowledge of. Since whatever you change into is a conscious effort made in-character, using out-of-character knowledge of game concepts to do so is completely invalid. You could say you're changing into "a Warforged who's been turned to flesh" but that would defeat the purpose of becoming an Adamantine Body Warforged.

Ok. I like where you are going with this one. Counter argument:
Charm Person specifically only targets humanoids, as well as enlarge person, daze, etc. Humanoid is something that is observable in the world, meaning that in at least some circles, a warforged that can be affected by such spells would be a novelty. Increasing the chances of exposure to such knowledge. However turning into one would mean you yourself look like the novelty and could be considered exotic. A dangerous thing to be.


Finally, you're proposing something that takes your 1st level feat, and Adamantine Body can only be taken at 1st level, as though you were created that way. You can't be born a Changeling, take Racial Emulation as your 1st level feat, assume the form of a Warforged that's somehow become humanoid, and then take a feat that says you've been constructed from Adamantine this entire time.

Ok, ok. I agree one hundred percent here. However flaws exist and allow us to take additional feats at first level. This is one of the few cases where the description kind of trumps the prerequisites imo.


You've clearly started this thread to fish for the answer you want, rather than an actually correct answer. It's not going to happen, because your trick doesn't work at all, by both RAW and RAI, and even if it was somehow legit, no DM in their right mind would ever allow it.

RAW it might. RAI it doesn't. And dms have permitted stranger. He may or may not be fishing, however the discussion is not as open and shut as you believe. I would love to hear your responses to the above comments!

[Troacctid]

Warforged are constructs, not humanoids. The existence of a hypothetical warforged somewhere who has been transmuted into a humanoid by magic doesn't change that. An archon could use magic to turn into a humanoid too, but that doesn't mean you can imitate one with Racial Emulation to get at-will greater teleports.

[RedMage125]

Warforged are constructs, not humanoids. The existence of a hypothetical warforged somewhere who has been transmuted into a humanoid by magic doesn't change that. An archon could use magic to turn into a humanoid too, but that doesn't mean you can imitate one with Racial Emulation to get at-will greater teleports.

This.

"Humanoid" has a specific meaning in game terms, and warforged do not fit into it at any point.

Unless...does the Reforged PrC for Warforged change their type to humanoid? I'm AFB right now. If so, a changeling could take the appearance of a warforged who had undergone this process (canonically, at least one of them looks fleshy...and kind of gross). But also by definition, Reforged lose all [Warforged] feats that they have, so no Adamantine Body anyway...

[ShurikVch]

I know RAI can never be cited with certainty, but to me, the obvious intent of the Changeling ability is to emulate natively Humanoid creatures only.
3. Is this RAI? no. You've got to be joking if you think it is. Taking dwarven defender and eye of gruumsh probably also isn't RAI. So your alone there.
RAW it might. RAI it doesn't.To be clear there - it's never was about RAI - it's why I firstly asked it in the Simple RAW Thread for 3.5
(Let alone the fact RAI may change not just from table to table, but from game to game...)



For reference:Well, Falontani in the very next reply addressed most of your points, but let me add my own observations...

Second, pretty much every ability that allows you to take the form of another creature says you can't take the form of a templated creature by default, it's always a typical member of a given race. That sets a precedent for which the above abilities provide no exception.Lycanthropes and Vampires. So standard they're predating D&D. Both taking form of templated creatures.


Third, you're naming metagame concepts which your character would have absolutely no knowledge of.Note: actually, "humanoid" in the game have two meanings: creature type, and body shape (see the prerequisites for Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) and Incarnate Construct templates, and Awaken Construct spell)
While the first is metagame -
Player: I cast Charm Person on the Evil Chancellor.
DM: No, you can't!
Player: But why?..
DM: You just can't!..
(Evil Chancellor wasn't Humanoid)
- the other is clearly observable (sans disguise or concealment).


You could say you're changing into "a Warforged who's been turned to flesh" but that would defeat the purpose of becoming an Adamantine Body Warforged.Why the Adamantine Body?
I prefer Psiforged Body (reminds me of Aether Crystals from Grim Dawn) :smallwink:


Finally, you're proposing something that takes your 1st level feat, and Adamantine Body can only be taken at 1st level, as though you were created that way. You can't be born a Changeling, take Racial Emulation as your 1st level feat, assume the form of a Warforged that's somehow become humanoid, and then take a feat that says you've been constructed from Adamantine this entire time.Brute Fighting
Construct Lock
Improved Fortification
Improved Resiliency
Overload Metabolism
Jaws of Death
Second Slam
Spiked Body
- none of them specify "1st-level only".


You've clearly started this thread to fish for the answer you want, rather than an actually correct answer.I started this thread because people at Simple RAW Thread misunderstood me



An archon could use magic to turn into a humanoid too, but that doesn't mean you can imitate one with Racial Emulation to get at-will greater teleports.Well, Archon polymorphed into Humanoid would lose their Greater Teleport, so your point is moot! :smalltongue:

[Katie Boundary]

Neither Construct nor Living Construct is a subtype of Humanoid.

The Incarnate Construct template bestows a Humanoid type but not any subtypes.

Warforged feats are only available to actual Warforged, not to any and all constructs or living constructs.

How is this still a discussion?

[Grim Reader]

Warforged are constructs, not humanoids. The existence of a hypothetical warforged somewhere who has been transmuted into a humanoid by magic doesn't change that. An archon could use magic to turn into a humanoid too, but that doesn't mean you can imitate one with Racial Emulation to get at-will greater teleports.

I agree with this. The existence of some Warforged that have gained the Humanoid tag through special circumstances does not change the nature of the entire race.

[ShurikVch]

Neither Construct nor Living Construct is a subtype of Humanoid.

The Incarnate Construct template bestows a Humanoid type but not any subtypes.

Warforged feats are only available to actual Warforged, not to any and all constructs or living constructs.

How is this still a discussion?Two problems with your reasoning:
Incarnate Construct template bestows a Humanoid type, but doesn't change any subtypes. Incarnate Construct Warforged is Humanoid (living construct).
Neither type nor subtype, actually, matter for the prerequisites - unless they directly say so. Warforged can lose type and subtype (as in the case of being affected by Greater Humanoid Essence) but keep the race - thus, would still qualify for the feats (and PrC, templates, etc)

I agree with this. The existence of some Warforged that have gained the Humanoid tag through special circumstances does not change the nature of the entire race.Where the heck "nature of the entire race" even come into play there? :smallconfused:
Say, existence of Werewolves doesn't change nature of Human(/Dwarven/Elven/etc) races - but does it mean Changeling wouldn't be able to take a Hybrid Werewolf shape (getting no combat benefits or drawbacks from it - just for show)?

[Troacctid]

You asked if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as one. Not if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as specifically Shovel, the incarnate warforged who runs a fruit stand in the Clifftop district. Those are different questions.

[Katie Boundary]

Two problems with your reasoning:
[LIST=1] Incarnate Construct template bestows a Humanoid type, but doesn't change any subtypes. Incarnate Construct Warforged is Humanoid (living construct)

Correct, it does not change any subtypes. And since statues, golems, etc. don't have subtypes (as far as I can tell), an Incarnate Construct will not have any subtype, much less the Living Construct subtype. Citations: Monster Manual pages 134-136, Savage Species pages 120-121


Neither type nor subtype, actually, matter for the prerequisites - unless they directly say so. Warforged can lose type and subtype (as in the case of being affected by Greater Humanoid Essence) but keep the race - thus, would still qualify for the feats (and PrC, templates, etc)

But they still have to actually be Warforged. Warforged feats can only be taken by Warforged, regardless of types or subtypes. They literally say "Prerequisites: Warforged". Since Warforged is neither a type nor a subtype, there is no amount of screwing around with types and subtypes that will allow warforged feats to be taken by non-warforged characters. Citation: Races of Eberron, pages 118-120


You asked if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as one. Not if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as specifically Shovel, the incarnate warforged who runs a fruit stand in the Clifftop district. Those are different questions.

But neither one will give you access to Warforged feats.

[ShurikVch]

You asked if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as one. Not if you could count as a warforged by disguising yourself as specifically Shovel, the incarnate warforged who runs a fruit stand in the Clifftop district. Those are different questions.While there is, indeed, certain difference - how it's matter for my question?

For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature.Isn't Warforged a "human-shaped bipedal creature"?

[Katie Boundary]

Isn't Warforged a "human-shaped bipedal creature"?

#NotAllWarforged

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/local--files/warforged-charger/WarforgedCharger.jpg

[ShurikVch]

Correct, it does not change any subtypes. And since statues, golems, etc. don't have subtypes (as far as I can tell), an Incarnate Construct will not have any subtype, much less the Living Construct subtype. Citations: Monster Manual pages 134-136, Savage Species pages 120-121There you have problems with your logic: one doesn't stem from other - if template doesn't says it change something, then that something stays exactly the same.


But they still have to actually be Warforged. Warforged feats can only be taken by Warforged, regardless of types or subtypes. They literally say "Prerequisites: Warforged". Since Warforged is neither a type nor a subtype, there is no amount of screwing around with types and subtypes that will allow warforged feats to be taken by non-warforged characters. Citation: Races of Eberron, pages 118-120"Warforged" is a Race.
And very few things in the game are able to actually change the Race - Incarnate Construct isn't one of them...




#NotAllWarforgedTrue! :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

While there is, indeed, certain difference - how it's matter for my question?
Isn't Warforged a "human-shaped bipedal creature"?
Warforged are constructs, not humanoids. Turning into a warforged would be disguising yourself as a construct, not a humanoid. You would still ignore the penalty for disguising yourself as another race, because that's not limited to humanoids, but you wouldn't count as a warforged.

On the other hand, if you disguise yourself as a specific creature, it's a much more interesting question, because now we have to consider whether they count as the type you think they are, or the type they actually are. For example, say you want to impersonate Shovel the Fruit Guy, mentioned above. You believe him to be a warforged who has become humanoid via magic. You don't know that actually, he's just a human, and he only says that to reel in the tourists. Alternatively, say you want to impersonate the local priest of Aureon, an elf, in order to gain elf traits. However, said priest is actually a rakshasa in disguise, and is not a humanoid at all. Would you still gain elf traits?

On the other hand, if you say you want to disguise yourself as a warforged with X trait, aren't you still disguising yourself as a construct, just with cosmetic variations? You don't actually have the template, after all. What if you wanted to turn into, say, a warforged made of spaghetti and meatballs rather than wood and metal? Are you really taking the form of a warforged with the Pasta Creature template, or is it just a weird cosmetic variation that you invented? If it turned out that Mordain the Fleshweaver actually did, unbeknownst to you, afflict a small number of warforged with such a condition when he accidentally switched his tupperware of spell components with his tupperware of leftovers, and pastaforged were, completely by coincidence, a legit real thing, would that make any difference?

[Vaern]

The description of minor change shape says that it functions as disguise self, except that it causes minor physical alterations to their body rather than being an illusory effect. Mechanically, you only look like the thing that you've changed into. You don't become that race.
Racial emulation allows you to emulate a humanoid's subtype, but still does not actually change race. A warforged who loses the construct type also loses the (living construct) subtype and, as far as I can tell, does not gain a new subtype to replace it. If it has no subtype to emulate then it's debatable whether it is even a valid target for the effects of racial emulation to begin with (though as a humanoid it would still be a valid subject for minor change shape).
You explicitly don't gain any of the traits of the creature you're emulating with Racial Emulation. And again, you don't actually gain their subtype or become that race - you're only emulating it, in the same way that a Use Magic Device check could allow you to emulate a race to activate a magic item. I doubt anyone would let you get away with being considered a member of that race for the purpose of permanent character development decisions. So my answer is a hard no, you can't use Racial Emulation to take Warforged feats.

In response to your other question, in the event that your DM disagrees and allows you to take warforged feats as a changeling, the answer is no, you do not keep the effects of such feats if you change races. If you ever fail to qualify for a feat, you lose its effects (though it can come back online if you regain qualifications for said feat in the future).

[Troacctid]

A warforged who loses the construct type also loses the (living construct) subtype and, as far as I can tell, does not gain a new subtype to replace it.
Well, generally, a creature that changes types gains the augmented subtype for their original type unless otherwise stated, if that counts.

[Katie Boundary]

There you have problems with your logic: one doesn't stem from other - if template doesn't says it change something, then that something stays exactly the same.

{scrubbed} "Incarnate construct" gives the Humanoid type to a construct. It does not bestow a Living Construct subtype, nor does it bestow anything related to being a Warforged, nor do constructs innately count as Warforged or as Living Constructs. Therefore, it will not work in any way even remotely similar to what you're trying to use it for.


"Warforged" is a Race.
And very few things in the game are able to actually change the Race - Incarnate Construct isn't one of them...

That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time!!!


On the other hand, if you disguise yourself as a specific creature, it's a much more interesting question, because now we have to consider whether they count as the type you think they are, or the type they actually are. For example, say you want to impersonate Shovel the Fruit Guy, mentioned above. You believe him to be a warforged who has become humanoid via magic. You don't know that actually, he's just a human, and he only says that to reel in the tourists. Alternatively, say you want to impersonate the local priest of Aureon, an elf, in order to gain elf traits. However, said priest is actually a rakshasa in disguise, and is not a humanoid at all. Would you still gain elf traits?

Changeling emulation is biological, not magical, and you don't sample your targets by physical contact like the T-1000, nor are you reading their DNA. It is therefore based on what you can see and believe. In many cases, you'll have to take wild guesses about aspects of the other person's appearance and anatomy that you are not privy to. If Shovel has a tattoo on his right butt cheek that no one knows about, and you emulate him, you won't magically get the same tattoo.

It therefore stands to reason that you'd gain abilities according to what you think the target is, rather than what they actually are.

[ShurikVch]

Alternatively, say you want to impersonate the local priest of Aureon, an elf, in order to gain elf traits. However, said priest is actually a rakshasa in disguise, and is not a humanoid at all. Would you still gain elf traits?You may ask more: what if the Elf in question is just illusion?
Not even Shadow Illusion - just old good Permanent Image?



If it has no subtype to emulate then it's debatable whether it is even a valid target for the effects of racial emulation to begin with (though as a humanoid it would still be a valid subject for minor change shape).Race and subtype are two different things: say, Avariel and Drow are both have "Elf" subtype, but their races are, definitely, different.



Well, generally, a creature that changes types gains the augmented subtype for their original type unless otherwise stated, if that counts.Indeed, it's correct. :smallsmile:



That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time!!!Yes - and they keep their race even after transformation - because RAW didn't said "race is changed" or something like that

[Katie Boundary]

You may ask more: what if the Elf in question is just illusion?
Not even Shadow Illusion - just old good Permanent Image?

Then you can still assume the form of that illusion and gain the benefits of some of its subtypes.


Race and subtype are two different things say, Avariel and Drow are both have "Elf" subtype, but their races are, definitely, different.

EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THAT

So why are you trying to convince people that screwing around with types and subtypes can make a changeling eligible for Warforged feats?

[Afghanistan]

EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THAT

Please calm down, there is no need to get hostile.


So why are you trying to convince people that screwing around with types and subtypes can make a changeling eligible for Warforged feats?

They are arguing that disguising yourself as an Incarnate Construct Warforged allows you to emulate them if you use Racial Emulation from Races of Eberron as a Changeling.


It therefore stands to reason that you'd gain abilities according to what you think the target is, rather than what they actually are.

This is very funny. My Changeling believes that Humans have draconis fundamentum granting them the breath weapon of a Dragon.

[Vaern]

Race and subtype are two different things: say, Avariel and Drow are both have "Elf" subtype, but their races are, definitely, different.
I know. It's just the way the feat is arranged.


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes.

The way the points of information in the feat description are arranged makes it appear as though being able to copy the subject's subtype is the key mechanical feature of the feat which the rest of the description builds from. The ability to emulate their subtype precludes the ability to be considered a member of that race.
But then again, that's just the way I'm interpreting it. Even by my reading, you might argue that "can" and "any" would imply that you can choose to emulate zero of the creature's subtypes and still benefit from the remainder of the feat's effects.


Well, generally, a creature that changes types gains the augmented subtype for their original type unless otherwise stated, if that counts.

Oh, right. Nice catch. I always forget about little safety nets like that in the rules.

[Blue Jay]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} "Incarnate construct" gives the Humanoid type to a construct. It does not bestow a Living Construct subtype, nor does it bestow anything related to being a Warforged, nor do constructs innately count as Warforged or as Living Constructs. Therefore, it will not work in any way even remotely similar to what you're trying to use it for.

Katie, are you aware that Living Construct is a subtype that the Warforged race already has? If the template doesn't change the creature's subtypes, then a Warforged that takes the template will not lose its Living Construct subtype. So, a Warforged with Incarnate Construct will have this type: Humanoid (Augmented Construct, Living Construct).


That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time!!!

Again, you're completely missing his argument. It's possible to for a member of the Warforged race to have the Humanoid type.

[Warforged] feats require you to be a member of the Warforged race, but they do not require you to have the Construct type. So, there's nothing preventing a Warforged with the Humanoid type from taking [warforged] feats.

The Racial Emulation feat lets you count as a member of a humanoid race you can mimic with Minor Change Shape for all purposes. So it's not unreasonable to argue that you can qualify for feats that require you to be a member of a race you're emulating.

Where I disagree with ShurikVch is that I don't believe you can treat "warforged with the Humanoid type" as a race for the Racial Emulation feat, because "warforged with the Humanoid type" isn't really a race: it's an unusual individual of a different race.

But I agree with Falontani that ShurikVch's reading is a valid way to read the RAW, but it's probably not one that will fly at most tables, and is probably not consistent with the way the rules were meant to work.

[ShurikVch]

I know. It's just the way the feat is arranged.

The way the points of information in the feat description are arranged makes it appear as though being able to copy the subject's subtype is the key mechanical feature of the feat which the rest of the description builds from. The ability to emulate their subtype precludes the ability to be considered a member of that race.
But then again, that's just the way I'm interpreting it. Even by my reading, you might argue that "can" and "any" would imply that you can choose to emulate zero of the creature's subtypes and still benefit from the remainder of the feat's effects. Well, some Humanoids - like Asherati, Crucian, Tasloi - are just have no racial subtype at all
IMO, treating the "subtype" part as mere addition is more reasonable than presuming such races are beyond the power of Racial Emulation...

[Katie Boundary]

Katie, are you aware that Living Construct is a subtype that the Warforged race already has?

Yes, and it doesn't matter.


a Warforged that takes the template will not lose its Living Construct subtype. So, a Warforged with Incarnate Construct...

You can't put Incarnate Construct on a Warforged... can you?

At the very least, the authors of Savage Species had no idea that Warforged were going to be a thing, and would have put additional restrictions on it if they had known.


Again, you're completely missing his argument.

No, I'm not. He/she is missing mine.


[Warforged] feats require you to be a member of the Warforged race, but they do not require you to have the Construct type.

Again, I ALREADY KNOW THAT, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I'M SAYING.

[Afghanistan]

You can't put Incarnate Construct on a Warforged... can you?


Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype.


"Incarnate construct" is an acquired template that can be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form—two arms, two legs, one head (hereafter referred to as the base creature)

Yes, you can. Unless you are playing a Warforged with say, the Aberrant Limbs NPC template from DMG, which would be extremely cool now that I think about it.


At the very least, the authors of Savage Species had no idea that Warforged were going to be a thing, and would have put additional restrictions on it if they had known.

The lack of a single errata clarifying or a reprinting of the Incarnate Construct template after the publication of the Eberron Campaign Setting would have been helpful. But unfortunately neither of those exist.

At this point I frankly don't know what you are trying to argue :smallconfused:

[Katie Boundary]

At this point I frankly don't know what you are trying to argue :smallconfused:

I'm arguing the same thing I've always been arguing: that only Warforged are allowed to take Warforged feats, and no amount of screwing around with templates and creature subtypes will allow a changeling to count as a Warforged.

Nonetheless, you HAVE discovered a neat trick: if you put IC on a Warforged, you get a humanoid with the living construct subtype, which the changeling can them emulate in order to get that lovely bag of Living Construct benefits:

- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
- Not needing to eat, sleep, or breathe
- Not bleeding out when reduced to 0 hit points
- being healed by repair spells

[Afghanistan]

that only Warforged are allowed to take Warforged feats, and no amount of screwing around with templates and creature subtypes will allow a changeling to count as a Warforged.

Interesting. I am curious, would your logic allow an Incarnate Construct Warforged to qualify for Warforged Juggernaut, Reforged, any feat with the [Warforged] descriptor, and be able to be a Warforged Artificer/Fighter?


Nonetheless, you HAVE discovered a neat trick: if you put IC on a Warforged, you get a humanoid with the living construct subtype, which the changeling can them emulate in order to get that lovely bag of Living Construct benefits like not needing to breathe.

That is incorrect:


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid’s subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, [...]

You are able to emulate the subtype, but you do not have it.

[Katie Boundary]

Interesting. I am curious, would your logic allow an Incarnate Construct Warforged to qualify for Warforged Juggernaut, Reforged, any feat with the [Warforged] descriptor, and be able to be a Warforged Artificer/Fighter?

It's not "my" logic. it's the rules as written. Those things all list warforged as a prerequisite. They do NOT list Construct as a prerequisite.

[Afghanistan]

It's not "my" logic. it's the rules as written. Those things all list warforged as a prerequisite. They do NOT list Construct as a prerequisite.

I'm trying to unpack your interpretation of the rules as written. I didn't mean to offend.

That in mind, would you, or would you not say that an Incarnate Construct Warforged is still, regardless of however many templates you throw on it, is still a Warforged?

[Katie Boundary]

Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

[Falontani]

Wow this thread got accusatory quick. Let's talk this out real slow.

1. Can a Changeling use their Minor Shape Change to look like any ol warforged?


You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The vital Statistics of a Changeling state that they are 5'1" with a +2d4" modifier. Meaning that Changelings are between 5'3" - 5'9". They can disguise themselves to be 4'3" - 6'9".
Warforged state that they are 5'10" +2d6 modifier, putting them at 6' - 6'10". This is within reasonable limits. Warforged are Humanoid Shaped, meaning that their body type by default falls within humanoid average.

So the answer to this one is: yes, however as Warforged are constructs Changelings get a -10 to their disguise check, putting their disguise at a net +0.

2. Can a Changeling look like a specific individual?


If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Spot checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.
...
Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell.
Yes. Although doing so may not be a walk in the park for a first level Changeling, it is indeed possible.

3. Can a Changeling use Minor Shape Change to take the form of a specific Warforged?

According to the previous three answers, it is a yes, with a caveat. A Warforged that is 6'10" inches is too tall for the tallest of Changelings to disguise themselves as without something making them bigger, or epic uses of Disguise. This is not insurmountable, but definitely note worthy. Additionally, attempting to pose as a specific Warforged against someone that is intimately familiar with the Warforged in question will be quite difficult for even an apprentice or perhaps adept Changeling. But still not insurmountable.

4. What does Racial Emulation do?


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid’s subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).
You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player’s Handbook).
You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.
One at a time:

When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature...
This part specifically relates only to humanoid creatures. This does not care about templates, subtypes, races, or anything else. Specifically a humanoid creature.

Unfortunately humanoid has two things that it refers to in various places. Humanoid in form. Humanoid in type. Your average Warforged is humanoid in form, but not humanoid in type. Your dm has the final call here. However going forward I will go with the more limiting of the two, humanoid in type.


...you can also emulate any of that humanoid’s subtypes. Alright. Simple. When you take the form of a humanoid creature (type because that is what we are using moving forward) you gain it's subtypes. So if our Changeling disguise themself as Gorn the Human Barbarian they gain the [Human] subtype. If Gorn is a Frozen Berserker who gains the [Cold] subtype during a rage, and our Changeling disguises themself as Gorn during his rage, by RAW we do get the [Cold] and [Human] subtypes.


...Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits... Alright. This is a loaded line. This can mean you do not gain Humanoid Traits. This can mean you do not get Racial Traits. This can mean you do not get the traits from the subtypes you are emulating. I will take the most restrictive reading, in that you gain the subtypes, and nothing else. This means in our previous example we gained Gar's cold subtype, but neither his immunity to cold, nor his vulnerability to fire. So we have it. It qualifies us as having it. But by itself it doesn't do anything. Detect cold now works on us. Favored enemy human works on us. But that's it. It is a qualifier. In the next portion of this line it refers to race. So you may be able to argue that it is specifically applying to Racial Traits.



...you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes.
And this here is the gem. You count as the same race as the individual you are disguised as. As long as the individual you are disguised as is a humanoid. For any purpose. From favored enemy, to magic items, all the way to prerequisites and further. You have somehow disguised yourself so well, that the universe believes you are this race. Any time that your race is referred to while you are disguised you are both a Changeling, and a member of the race your disguised as, as long as the qualifiers are met. This post of the ability by RAW is the cheesiest part of the feat. But this is what our OP is after.


You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race. This part is the most straight forward. You no longer suffer the -2 penalty for disguising yourself as a different race. You still take the -10 for disguising yourself as a different type.

5. Is an average warforged humanoid?


Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype. no they are not.

6. Can a warforged be a humanoid?

As the OP stated. A Warforged with the template: Incarnate Construct is a humanoid with the Living Construct subtype. A Warforged under the effects of the spell Greater Humanoid Essence is a humanoid.

So the answer is yes.

7. Can a Changeling use Minor Shape Change to disguise as a humanoid Warforged.

All of our answers so far point to yes. It may not be easy, and you would have to know of such a warforged, but it can be done.

8. What happens?

That is what this thread is for. What seems to happen is that our Changeling disguises themself as Song the Incarnate Construct Warforged, gaining the Living Construct subtype, but none of the traits of the subtype, while now counting as a warforged. As they are now a warforged they can take Warforged specific feats if they otherwise meet the prerequisites. They lose access to these feats when they are not disguised as Song the Incarnate Construct Warforged or a similar version of such.

So the final question is:

9. Why don't we just play Song the Incarnate Construct Warforged?

There are many possible reasons to this one, but I believe the best answer is the most simple: because we don't want to nor have to, to do so.

[Afghanistan]

Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

Okay, just checking for internal consistency and realized that there isn't any. Thank you for your time.

[Katie Boundary]

And this here is the gem. You count as the same race as the individual you are disguised as. As long as the individual you are disguised as is a humanoid.

Okay, no, that is a severe misreading of what's happening here. The ability says "that race", NOT "that character's race", meaning that it's using "race" as a shorthand for subtype. This is understandable because, when dealing with humanoids, race and subtype are usually the same thing (for example, elves are humanoids with the elf subtype, orcs are humanoids with the orc subtype, and so on).


Okay, just checking for internal consistency and realized that there isn't any. Thank you for your time.

I'm being perfectly internally consistent.



EDIT: oooh, here's a question. If a Gold, Silver, or Bronze dragon temporarily assumes humanoid form, can a changeling emulate it and then count as a dragon for the purposes of eligibility for epic dragon cheese? Or does it only count as whatever subtype of humanoid the dragon has assumed the form of (so if the dragon assumes the form of an elf, the changeling only counts as an elf)? I'd argue the latter.

[Falontani]

Okay, no, that is a severe misreading of what's happening here. The ability says "that race", NOT "that character's race", meaning that it's using "race" as a shorthand for subtype. This is understandable because, when dealing with humanoids, race and subtype are usually the same thing (for example, elves are humanoids with the elf subtype, orcs are humanoids with the orc subtype, and so on).


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid’s subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).
You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player’s Handbook).
You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.

Subtype and race are not the same thing. It states that you gain the subtypes of the creature your disguised as, if they are Humanoid. It also states that you count as the race for all purposes. In two separate, distinct sentences. This is the part that is more than likely being argued. A RAI reading could say that it is the same thing just different terms.

[Katie Boundary]

subtype and race are not the same thing.

{scrubbed}

[Falontani]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

That is a direct attack against me. I was not disagreeing with you there. {scrubbed}

I do hope that this thread reaches a conclusion; however I believe my opinion is no longer desired here.

[Katie Boundary]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I did. By quoting me, you seemed to be implying that you were telling me something that I didn't already know or which contradicted the points I was making earlier.

Nonetheless, most humanoids' subtypes are the same as their races, which is why it would be easy for the author of that particular ability to say "race" when they meant subtype. Grammatically, the way it's written doesn't make a lot of sense if it's treating race and subtype as different things.

[Blue Jay]

EDIT: oooh, here's a question. If a Gold, Silver, or Bronze dragon temporarily assumes humanoid form, can a changeling emulate it and then count as a dragon for the purposes of eligibility for epic dragon cheese? Or does it only count as whatever subtype of humanoid the dragon has assumed the form of (so if the dragon assumes the form of an elf, the changeling only counts as an elf)? I'd argue the latter.

The Racial Emulation feat can emulate a race and give you access to race-exclusive options.

But it can't emulate a creature type or give you access to type-exclusive options.

So no, a changeling can't access Dragon-only options using RE, because Dragon-only options require the Dragon type, and RE requires the Humanoid type. There's an inherent conflict between the two creature-type requirements, so you generally can't meet both at once.

In contrast, [warforged] feats have a race requirement and no type requirement; while RE has a type requirement, but no race requirement. So, it's possible to manipulate the system in a way that lets you meet both requirements at once, because there's no inherent conflict between a race requirement and a type requirement.


I do hope that this thread reaches a conclusion; however I believe my opinion is no longer desired here.

For what it's worth, I value your input, and I appreciated your step-by-step breakdown a couple posts up.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please lower the temperature in this thread; it's getting a bit too heated.

[Grim Reader]

Where the heck "nature of the entire race" even come into play there? :smallconfused:
Say, existence of Werewolves doesn't change nature of Human(/Dwarven/Elven/etc) races - but does it mean Changeling wouldn't be able to take a Hybrid Werewolf shape (getting no combat benefits or drawbacks from it - just for show)?

The line from racial emulation that lets you take feats as if you were a member of that race "you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes" refers to the race, not the individual you are copying.

[Katie Boundary]

So no, a changeling can't access Dragon-only options using RE, because Dragon-only options require the Dragon type, and RE requires the Humanoid type. There's an inherent conflict between the two creature-type requirements, so you generally can't meet both at once.

But when Dragons assume humanoid form, their creature type and subtype temporarily change. Only their race remains Dragon.

[Ryton]

But when Dragons assume humanoid form, their creature type and subtype temporarily change. Only their race remains Dragon.

True, so by the same logic that Emulating a now-humanoid Warforged allows you to qualify as Warforged, a now-humanoid Dragon should equally qualify as a Dragon.

Now, we could all get into a heated discussion about why a templated Warforged might be a more valid RE target than a Shapechanged whatever-the-desired-target's-race-is, but if a hypothetical templated creature is a valid RE target then by the same RAW so is any creature in a humanoid form, regardless of the creature's original race, and even if that is wildly and obviously outside RAI. So feel free to slap on whatever templates and caster levels are necessary to get the desired race as humanoid for long enough to Emulate it.

We could also get into a discussion about how the Changeling may or may not have any idea of what the RE target's race is, or what benefits will be bestowed, but it doesn't look like RE checks for any of that. You pick a target, you gain their race, full stop. Again, the lack of any discerning ability to know what happens if you, for instance, try to RE an illusion as mentioned earlier in the thread is immensely troubling with this reading/ruling (is your race now [Spell]? Can an Incanatrix now apply metamagicks to you?), but that is how it was printed.



I expect it to fly at very, very few tables (certainly none I play at), but yeah, I guess it works as printed, for whatever that's worth.

But back to the second question from the OP, I don't read the feat as allowing, say, Adamantine Body to work in any form other than your humanoid Warforged, as any other Warforged aren't valid target's, and any other race would disqualify the feat requirements.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
I guess you could try to jump through more hoops to somehow make an NPC whose race is simultaneously Dragon-Warforged-Devil-Whatever so you qualify for all your racial feats with one form and to avoid whatever LA/RHD would come from such a horrid templated monstrosity, but I doubt many (or any) tables would allow you to make such an NPC just to permit the existence of your PC.

[Katie Boundary]

You pick a target, you gain their race, full stop.

But that's exactly what's in dispute. I'm about 99% sure that you only get their subtype, which the author of the ability incorrectly referred to as race.

Read RE very carefully. The very first time it says "race", it does so in the phrase "that race", as if a race has already been mentioned. But no race had been mentioned before that. Only subtype was mentioned. The author was using "race" as shorthand for "subtype" because he/she had forgotten about Kobolds, Lesser Planetouched, and other humanoids whose subtype isn't the same thing as their race.

Does race even mean anything, mechanically? And where do you draw the line between race and subrace? Take Drow, for example. Their type is humanoid and their subtype is elf, but is their race considered to be elf as well? Or is their race considered Drow? What about half-elves? In the PHB, they are considered their own race, separate from both elves and humans. but in the MM, they are considered a subrace of elves. Are Warforged, Warforged Scouts, and Warforged Chargers all considered members of the Warforged race, or are they three separate races? If they are three separate races, then are Scouts and Chargers ineligible for Warforged-only feats?

[Falontani]

But that's exactly what's in dispute. I'm about 99% sure that you only get their subtype, which the author of the ability incorrectly referred to as race.

Read RE very carefully. The very first time it says "race", it does so in the phrase "that race", as if a race has already been mentioned. But no race had been mentioned before that. Only subtype was mentioned. The author was using "race" as shorthand for "subtype" because he/she had forgotten about Kobolds, Lesser Planetouched, and other humanoids whose subtype isn't the same thing as their race.

Does race even mean anything, mechanically? And where do you draw the line between race and subrace? Take Drow, for example. Their type is humanoid and their subtype is elf, but is their race considered to be elf as well? Or is their race considered Drow? What about half-elves? In the PHB, they are considered their own race, separate from both elves and humans. but in the MM, they are considered a subrace of elves. Are Warforged, Warforged Scouts, and Warforged Chargers all considered members of the Warforged race, or are they three separate races? If they are three separate races, then are Scouts and Chargers ineligible for Warforged-only feats?

Reading into what the author intended is called Read As Intended, often shorthanded as RAI. This thread simply doesn't care about the RAI, and therefore arguments of the RAI have no bearing in this discussion.

What we are attempting to discern is the Read As Written, referred to as RAW. The reason for this is that while sometimes the RAI is very easy to understand, discern, and use, oftentimes it is arcane, nonsense, and sometimes doesn't even work.

Drow possesses the Elf Subtype. Their race is Drow. Their type is humanoid.

Kobold possesses the Reptilian and Dragonblood subtypes. It's race is Kobold. It's type is humanoid, unless it takes Dragonwrought in which case it is a Dragon. I'd rather not start this debate, however it bears mentioning that it may also gain the moniker True Dragon, which is not a race, a type, or a subtype, but just is.

Warforged, Warforged Scout, and Warforged Charger are all reintroduced in Monster Manual 3 under the heading of Warforged. They all possess the type of construct, the subtype of living construct, and the race Warforged. They are different subraces, but still the same race.

This is confusing due to the fact that humanoid races uniquely add the race that they are a subrace of as a subtype.

To make things stranger, the feat Human Heritage grants any creature with a human bloodline the Humanoid Type and the Human Subtype. Without changing the creature's race.

Finally, the half races do not get the subtype of their parents if they are true breeding (read their own race)... most of the time. Half elf and half orc count as elves and orcs respectively while not possessing the race nor the subtype, but something much more akin to Racial Emulation. Elven blood, and orc blood.

Who thought fantasy biology and classifications could be so difficult?

[Katie Boundary]

Their race is Drow...

It's race is Kobold...

They all possess the type of construct, the subtype of living construct, and the race Warforged. They are different subraces, but still the same race.

Says who? I mean, literally, where is that written? What makes Drow a race but Warforged Scout a sub-race?

EDIT: The 3.5e Monster Manual I explicitly lists drow as a subrace of elves, not as their own race. So, y'know, there's that.