Crazy high damage Eldritch Blast Warlocks?

[Schwann145]

On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.

Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?

[Shadhael]

Two features that immediate pop out from other classes (which doesn't affect EB scaling as it is level based, not Warlock level based) are Quickened Spell by dipping Sorcerer, and Action Surge from Fighter. For a single sorcery point you can cast EB as a bonus action, then surge and cast it as an action again. So that's (1d10+CHA)×12. And depending on DM interpretation, throw a Repelling Blast on all of those beams to potentially push the target back up to 120 ft.

[Jerrykhor]

Yes, you are missing the fact that martials cannot emulate that damage output at that range. EB with agonizing blast means it is same as a Heavy Crossbow, but Heavy crossbow requires loading, and only has 100ft range. EB has 120ft range, can be boosted to 300, and can be fired 4 times at lv17. Then you can minmax is by taking sorcerer levels which can quicken EB for more damage. Then take fighter levels for action surge and do it again. All of the hits stack with 'on hit effects', such as Hex and hexblade curse, dealing even more damage.

Martials best bet for long range dps is the long bow, but it is d8 damage, heavy, and 2 handed, and costs ammo, and is resisted by any monster with resistance to non-magical damage.

Of course it depends on your definition of 'crazy'. But there's no denying that it is a lot of damage for little effort.

[BarneyBent]

Hex adds 1d6. Hexblade’s Curse adds proficiency bonus for Hexblades.

Spike Growth plus Repelling Blast/Arms of Hadar =many extra d4s added to the damage.

Sorlocks can quicken, effectively doubling the damage.

[Kane0]

On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.

Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?

It's very respectable on its own but you can also plug in Eldritch Spear, Repelling Blast, Quicken Spell, Action Surge, etc to ramp it up as well. On top of the fact that it's Force damage this makes it a very versatile and reliable option as well as rather powerful for the investment.

[Toadkiller]

If you basically focus your character on that one cantrip you can make it super powerful. There are folks that find that fun and others that don’t. Neither side is wrong, but they might not be the best table mates for a campaign as they tend to be looking for different things in the game.

[MaxWilson]

On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.

Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?

The single biggest damage boost for Eldritch Blast is situational, but it's huge: Repelling Blast.

Did someone cast a Spike Growth? Now you're doing 1d10+4d4+Cha on a hit, AND now they (potentially, depending on geometry) have to waste another 20' of movement recovering that 10' through difficult terrain, which might mean losing a whole turn's worth of actions, especially if you're also using Lance of Lethargy to slow them down. Couple Repelling Blast with the right other invocation and you can maybe pull them back towards you again for another +4d4, and then push them again for yet another +4d4.

Did someone cast a Wall of Fire? 1d10+5d8+Cha.

Evard's Black Tentacles? 1d10+6d6 (on a failed save)+Cha.

Are you fighting on the edge of a 80' cliff? 1d10+8d6+Cha+BFR (battlefield removal, until they manage to climb the cliff again). If you're in the middle of an aerial duel on flying mounts, you knock an enemy right off their flying Nightmare or whatever and it's effectively a one-hit kill.

Each of these scenarios is individually pretty rare, but (1) it adds up--Repelling Blast winds up being frequently useful in one way or another; (2) PCs can take steps to make them more common.

Honestly, +Cha from Agonizing Blast or +d6 from Hex is pretty small potatoes, all things considered, even if you do Quicken.

[Waazraath]

On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.

Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?

I see it rarely mentioned (I guess that's positive) but the Ravnica guide also has an item that lets you repeat a cantrip as a bonus action, no charges. So that's unlimited double damage, as long as you have a bonus action to spare.


Yes, you are missing the fact that martials cannot emulate that damage output at that range. EB with agonizing blast means it is same as a Heavy Crossbow, but Heavy crossbow requires loading, and only has 100ft range. EB has 120ft range, can be boosted to 300, and can be fired 4 times at lv17. Then you can minmax is by taking sorcerer levels which can quicken EB for more damage. Then take fighter levels for action surge and do it again. All of the hits stack with 'on hit effects', such as Hex and hexblade curse, dealing even more damage.

Martials best bet for long range dps is the long bow, but it is d8 damage, heavy, and 2 handed, and costs ammo, and is resisted by any monster with resistance to non-magical damage.

Of course it depends on your definition of 'crazy'. But there's no denying that it is a lot of damage for little effort.

To be honest, I don't think assessments like these give a fair view. You optimize the EB user through the roof, with sorcer/quicken and fighter/action surge, and account on hit effects (without mentioning these compete with the bonus action - a Warlock that wants to hex a target, and hexblade curse him, and use quickened EB is already in turn 3 of the fight). While at the same time, you put 0 optimization effort in optimizing the martial and assume non-magic damage (almost unheard of at higher levels, and something you can fix in your build in a no magic items campaign). A Fighter with Sharp Shooter, the right subclass (prolly Battle Master or Samurai) and action surge (just to mention something) can do wicked damage as well.

[Shabbazar]

EB with agonizing blast means it is same as a Heavy Crossbow, but Heavy crossbow requires loading, and only has 100ft range. EB has 120ft range, can be boosted to 300...

As long as we are focusing on optimizing one attack, you can take the Spell Sniper feat and double the range yet again. That'll get you out to 600 feet range.

[Citadel97501]

To be honest, I don't think assessments like these give a fair view. You optimize the EB user through the roof, with sorcer/quicken and fighter/action surge, and account on hit effects (without mentioning these compete with the bonus action - a Warlock that wants to hex a target, and hexblade curse him, and use quickened EB is already in turn 3 of the fight). While at the same time, you put 0 optimization effort in optimizing the martial and assume non-magic damage (almost unheard of at higher levels, and something you can fix in your build in a no magic items campaign). A Fighter with Sharp Shooter, the right subclass (prolly Battle Master or Samurai) and action surge (just to mention something) can do wicked damage as well.

I must agree as it doesn't seem that people are thinking of what an equivalent character would have, for example I have been looking at a weird bow user myself, while it is rather MAD. This also burns all of your resources in one round.

Race: High Elf
Classes: Tempest Cleric: 6, Artificer-Battlesmith: 6+, Fighter-Champion: 6
Concentration Spells: Arcane Weapon: Adding Thunder Damage
Infusions: Repeating Shot, Enhanced Weapon
Weapons: Repeating Shot: Hand Crossbow
Feats: Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Elven Accuracy (Need to 20 dexterity or 20 Intelligence both are good in different ways.)

Attack: +9 with Sharpshooter
Damage: 1d6+1d6+16 (4d4+Up to 5 times per long rest...)
Effects: Knockback of 10' per shot.
-Non-Crit Averages: 23 per shot, (33 average with the Arcane Jolt). 5 attack totals: 115 or (155 if using all of your Arcane Jolts.)
-With 27% for Crits Averages: 31.1 per shot (46.5 with Arcane Jolt.) 5 Attack Totals: 155.5 per round (232.5)

[Dork_Forge]

I must agree as it doesn't seem that people are thinking of what an equivalent character would have, for example I have been looking at a weird bow user myself, while it is rather MAD. This also burns all of your resources in one round.

Race: High Elf
Classes: Tempest Cleric: 6, Artificer-Battlesmith: 6+, Fighter-Champion: 6
Concentration Spells: Arcane Weapon: Adding Thunder Damage
Infusions: Repeating Shot, Enhanced Weapon
Weapons: Repeating Shot: Hand Crossbow
Feats: Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Elven Accuracy (Need to 20 dexterity or 20 Intelligence both are good in different ways.)

Attack: +9 with Sharpshooter
Damage: 1d6+1d6+16 (4d4+Up to 5 times per long rest...)
Effects: Knockback of 10' per shot.
-Non-Crit Averages: 23 per shot, (33 average with the Arcane Jolt). 5 attack totals: 115 or (155 if using all of your Arcane Jolts.)
-With 27% for Crits Averages: 31.1 per shot (46.5 with Arcane Jolt.) 5 Attack Totals: 155.5 per round (232.5)

Tempest Cleric to max out thunder damage? Without relying on crits you'd probably be better off going Battle Smith 6, Battle Master 11, Gloom Stalker 3. That will give you a first round of 9 attacks, making the most out of your Arcane Weapon and letting you drop all of your SD in one go and an extra d8 couple of d8 for good measure for the Dread Ambusher attacks.

[Arkhios]

Yes, you are missing the fact that martials cannot emulate that damage output at that range. EB with agonizing blast means it is same as a Heavy Crossbow, but Heavy crossbow requires loading, and only has 100ft range. EB has 120ft range, can be boosted to 300, and can be fired 4 times at lv17. Then you can minmax is by taking sorcerer levels which can quicken EB for more damage. Then take fighter levels for action surge and do it again. All of the hits stack with 'on hit effects', such as Hex and hexblade curse, dealing even more damage.

Martials best bet for long range dps is the long bow, but it is d8 damage, heavy, and 2 handed, and costs ammo, and is resisted by any monster with resistance to non-magical damage.

Of course it depends on your definition of 'crazy'. But there's no denying that it is a lot of damage for little effort.

Actually, I wouldn't say martials "cannot", because with Crossbow Expert and Sharp Shooter feats (okay, in a white room, without feats on the table, warlock wins the price), a Fighter with Heavy Crossbow can emulate that damage output even farther than Warlock with Eldritch Spear Invocation reaching as far as 400 feet without disadvantage, and technically, Fighter with at least 17 levels could spend both Action Surges in one round and deal even more damage than a Warlock/Fighter/Sorcerer

[sophontteks]

OP you are missing a lot as the only buff your formula mentioned is agonizing blast. There are several more buffs.

EB plus agonizing blast plus hex plus maddening hex:
Per bolt(1d10 + cha + 1d6) + (cha in an aoe)

Use devil's eye for darkness and each bolt has advantage. Knockback on bolts restricts their ability to counterattack and potentially knocks them off cliffs/into hazards.

That's a pretty mean main attack that can compete with martials.

[Nhorianscum]

On more than one occasion I've seen people online going on about the insane damage a properly built Warlock can do after building up their Eldritch Blast, but... I'm not seeing it.
(1d10+Cha)x4 is quite good and all, prob the best of the cantrip users, but in the grand scheme of damage dealing it's not that crazy.

Am I missing something obvious or are people just over-hyping EB?

It's pretty throughly overhyped. The main way to deal damage that shows "extreme wow" numbers is via a 3 turn setup into EB quickened EB for 168 damage *in tier 4* which is... laughably low compared to leveled spells. This is using empowered hex+Hexcurse+EB+AB, +quickened EB + AB, total damage/combat = 318 = 106 DPR.

It's respectable "low cost" damage but only in tier 4. In tier 3 it's... sorta ok, not great but head and shoulders above other cantrips not printed in scag, and in tiers 1-2 it's... nothing special at all.

It's a filler spell in your rotation or a cheap poke attack.

Tier 2 full EB wombo looks like a whopping 72 peak damage turn 3 and 138/combat for 46 DPR. It's... not something to build around.

Tier 1. Use a damn crossbow.

By comparison in tier 4 leveled spell nova damage is something like "It's dead, damage is arbitrary" on turn 1.

I'm eskewing AS because nobody is dropping 9th level casting for AS. It also favors hex1+Fi1+Fullcaster17 because as it turns out 9th level spells, better than +cha to damage on a cantrip in tier 4. Whoda thunk.

I'm also eskewing fi20 because fi20, and the +1 ebberon foci as those are also horrifically slanted against EB as well.

[Keravath]

The key feature is that this ranged damage is available to ANY charisma based class with just 2 levels of warlock.

- Agonizing blast is d10+cha and scales by character level. This is decent competitive damage to most builds over the entire level range. By itself it isn't the best damage possible. GWM and Sharpshooter builds will usually outdamage it depending on the AC of the target.

- However, add levels of sorcerer and you can quicken agonizing blast which doubles the possible damage and requires a fighter using feats and action surge to catch.

- Add a couple of levels of fighter for action surge and then the sorcerer/warlock can fire 3 eldritch blasts in one combat round. This gives a possible damage of 9 * (d10 + cha) starting at level 11 and 12 * (d10+cha) starting at level 17. Add wand of the war mage or rod of the pact keeper to increase to hit.

- If you want to take rounds to set it up, you can cast hex as a bonus action (d6 extra damage each) in the first round and hexblade's curse (+proficiency ... +6/hit in tier 4) giving a grand total of 12 * (d10+d6+cha+6) .. however, even without the boost from the other sources, it is still decent at-will damage compared to the other basic builds.

e.g. a level 11 fighter has 3 * (d8+5) as its base damage for a rapier/light crossbow/longsword at level 11. Add +2 damage on each for dueling. Greatsword would be 3 * (2d6+5). Basic agonizing blast is pretty comparable to either of these with an investment of 2 levels in warlock.

The damage is good and potentially among the best available though I think the barbarian/fighter GWM crit fishing builds with magic weapons will do more raw damage ... but it is in melee. (e.g. 11+ fighter/9- barbarian with PAM+GWM will have four attacks/round with advantage doing (d4+17) + 3 * (d10+17) ... action surge adds another 3*(d10+17) assuming 20 str and +2 for raging.

Agonizing blast is one of the reasons sorlocks are a popular build but it works just as well for bardlocks to supplement the lack of good at-will single target damage options available to the bard.

[Spiritchaser]

A hexblade sorlock can crank out a lot, but there are a few considerations.

First the numbers at 20, because I’m to lazy to do this at all levels.

Quickened EB/EB with agonizing blast, hex and hexblade’s curse

That’s 8 bolts each doing 1d10+1d6+5+6

That’s a nominal 160 points of damage per round, before accuracy, at range, using mostly SR resources only (or one long rest hex spell that goes for ages. SP are also long rest, but this is one of the few builds where burning spells for nearly unlimited SP makes sense)

Two levels of fighter would let you action surge for 80 more, a total of 240.

But: It’ll take two rounds worth of bonus actions for setup to get there (not that damage is in any way bad while you do this)
Your curse is once per short rest. Once you kill the hell out of your primary target, your damage drops off to a mere 112 damage per round, and that only after you spend a round using your bonus action moving hex to that new target.

Against some hypothetical foe with absurd levels of health, or massive healing or regeneration, ramping up to 160 dpr (before accuracy) is very impressive, but usually by the time you’ve got your hex and your curse on something, it’s already pretty badly hurt, and the value of that number is considerably less.

Precasting before battle?
Your hex needs to be applied to a foe using a bonus action. This eliminates the option of quickened EB that round. Some DM’s may allow you to do this before combat starts. I wouldn’t, but I can understand the argument. There is, after all discussion about some spells that can go unnoticed, I’ve just decided that Hex is’t one of those spells.

Alternatives to hex? Hex does damage, but against high AC targets you may be better off with something that gives you advantage. Some of those could be precast.

Running around with precast improved invisibility allows you to hit 84 damage on your first round, assuming you don’t apply hexblades curse (not everyone is a hexblade) that sounds a whole lot less impressive, but take Elven accuracy and you’ll very rarely miss, crit a lot, and you’ll be quite survivable to boot.

Using an area debuff/damage spell is also a good option, but that’s going to be very encounter specific.

[sleepyhead]

Figured I should mention that the rogues Assassinate ability also works with EB so you got crits for the first round.

[Misterwhisper]

One main issue is that people with a longbow or a HCB and CBE, will have archery style and magic weapons eventually, plus possibly bracers of archery.

EB can not be effected by archery, and their magic weapon only effects to hit and not damage.

Ex. Lets say level 11, where a fighter and the EB person gets a 3rd blast/attack:

Fighter:
3 attacks
To hit: + 11 maybe 12 = dex 5, prof 3, archery 2, Magic weapon 1 or 2
Damage: 1d8 + 9 = Dex 5, Bracers 2, weapon 2


EB:
3 blasts
To hit: 9 maybe 10 = Cha 5, Prof 3, Magic weapon + 1 maybe 2
Damage: 1d10 + 5

this is before things like hex, action surge, or other situational bonuses.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It's pretty throughly overhyped. The main way to deal damage that shows "extreme wow" numbers is via a 3 turn setup into EB quickened EB for 176 damage *in tier 4* which is... laughably low compared to leveled spells. This is using empowered hex+Hexcurse+EB+AB, total damage/combat = 334 = 111.3 DPR.

It's respectable "low cost" damage but only in tier 4. In tier 3 it's... sorta ok, not great but head and shoulders above other cantrips not printed in scag, and in tiers 1-2 it's... nothing special at all.

It's a filler spell in your rotation or a cheap poke attack.

I think that 12*(1d10+1d6+5+6)=12*20=240 is more then 20d6(meteor swarm)=20*3.5=70

This is the damage in turn 3 but I comper it to a level 9 spells which you have only 1.

Full 3 turns will be
4*(1d10+5+6)
4*(1d10+5+6+1d6)
12*(1d10+5+6+1d6)

And the extra crit range will mean 2 out of the 20 attacks will be critical hits.

Crown of Stars is
12d12
83
The meteor swarm is
20d6
70
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting
14d8
63

83+70+63=216
Only the turn 3 of the warlock is 240

I assume no crits, everything hit and no one pass the save.

I assume average damage on everything.

I assume a single target as I see the warlock only effective vs 1 target.

Against multiple targets the wizard spells are way better.


Edit:

And I see you edited you post, my post is no longer relevant :(

It took me a full bathroom break to write it so I will not remove it even if it is no longer relevant.

[Nhorianscum]

I think that 12*(1d10+1d6+5+6)=12*20=240 is more then 20d6(meteor swarm)=20*3.5=70

This is the damage in turn 3 but I comper it to a level 9 spells which you have only 1.

Full 3 turns will be
4*(1d10+5+6)
4*(1d10+5+6+1d6)
12*(1d10+5+6+1d6)

And the extra crit range will mean 2 out of the 20 attacks will be critical hits.

Crown of Stars is
12d12
83
The meteor swarm is
20d6
70
Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting
14d8
63

83+70+63=216
Only the turn 3 of the warlock is 240

I assume no crits, everything hit and no one pass the save.

I assume average damage on everything.

I assume a single target as I see the warlock only effective vs 1 target.

Against multiple targets the wizard spells are way better.

No.

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target. We'll use evoker here so 245, x2 from simulacrum, 490. Save for half is bad here but yeaaaaah.

Good single target is turn 1 no-save dead.

I did err in locks favor with napkin math lol

[Yunru]

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target.

Yes, lets just sink even more resources into a 9th level spell to make it seem comparable.

[NNescio]

No.

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target.

Good single target is turn 1 no-save dead.

I did err in locks favor with napkin math lol

How are you maximizing Meteor Swarm?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

No.

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target.

Good single target is turn 1 no-save dead.

May I get an example?
And I was talking about damage so I will like a one based on damage, a wizard don't need to do damage to win but the warlock machine gun is all about damage so a non damage example is not nice the poor warlock.


BTW, how do you get 240?
All 6 in a 20d6 is 120.


And the warlock in my example do 58 damage in the first round and 72 in the second.

That is 370 is 3 rounds.

[Nhorianscum]

May I get an example?
And I was talking about damage so I will like a one based on damage, a wizard don't need to do damage to win but the warlock machine gun is all about damage so a non damage example is not nice the poor warlock.


BTW, how do you get 240?
All 6 in a 20d6 is 120.

40d6

Nuclear wiz/sorc is a build.

[MaxWilson]

No.

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target. We'll use evoker here so 245, x2 from simulacrum, 490. Save for half is bad here but yeaaaaah.

Good single target is turn 1 no-save dead.

I did err in locks favor with napkin math lol

Overchannel is valid only on spells up to 5th level. Meteor Swarm will do 145 (save for half), or 75 (save for half) against a fire-immune enemy.

Yeah, Simulacrum is a trump card in many ways.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Overchannel is valid only on spells up to 5th level. Meteor Swarm will do 145 (save for half), or 75 (save for half) against a fire-immune enemy.

Yeah, Simulacrum is a trump card in many ways.

Why will the warlock not use simis?
You will need to lose the action surge but it is not as powerful as a sim attacking with you.
(2 lock 18 sorcerer)

A sim is like action surge- every turn.

[Nhorianscum]

Overchannel is valid only on spells up to 5th level. Meteor Swarm will do 145 (save for half), or 75 (save for half) against a fire-immune enemy.

Yeah, Simulacrum is a trump card in many ways.

Woops, not gonna lie I'm used to slapping OC onto upcast numbers under the LMI ruling so I totally forgot it does not affect "real" 6+. Let's just pretend I used...

Grave2/Sorc18 draconic for 300 no-silm lowball? Really just using MSwarm as the given example here.

-----

At the end of the day hex1/caster 19 has 9th, 8th, 7th, 2x6th, 3x5ths. While full caster has an extra 7th and sorc gets... like 10+ 5ths. Hex2 drops to 1 6th.

My end point is that we do more with leveled upcasting and have the slots to do this either every fight with every round use in important fights... or just every single round on sorc bases. This is why EB is... filler. Even before we start getting degenerate with being a tier 4 caster.

[MaxWilson]

Woops, not gonna lie I'm used to slapping OC onto upcast numbers under the LMI ruling so I totally forgot it does not affect "real" 6+. Let's just pretend I used...

Grave2/Sorc18 draconic for 300 no-silm lowball? Really just using MSwarm as the given example here.

I'm aware of the Hexblade/Evoker/MM nuke, so I can accept that there are better examples, but if you're relying on Path to the Grave + Meteor Swarm here, they don't even work together because Meteor Swarm has no attack roll. So you're back to 145 or 75, save for half.



My end point is that we do more with leveled upcasting and have the slots to do this either every fight with every round use in important fights... or just every single round on sorc bases. This is why EB is... filler. Even before we start getting degenerate with being a tier 4 caster.

I agree with the basic point that EB is filler. It is quite a nice at-will, no-concentration attack, but it also can induce MADness and it's only stronger than e.g. a Necromancer's squad of skeletons in niche situations.

EB is more attractive to cheapskates who like to save their spell slots for emergencies than to big spenders who love to nova. I happen to be one of those cheapskates.


Why will the warlock not use simis?
You will need to lose the action surge but it is not as powerful as a sim attacking with you.
(2 lock 18 sorcerer)

A sim is like action surge- every turn.

Point taken: sorlocks have EB also. Nevertheless I'll answer the question: why did Max mostly ignore Simulacrum?

Because RAW Simulacrum will break the game and I have rewritten it. Vanilla PHB Simulacrum, if used, leads to the game becoming nothing but large numbers of PC Simulacra, fighting monsters while protecting a small number of PCs. Simulacra making Simulacra ad nauseum is possible as early as 13th level, even before Wish comes online: just make a Simulacrum of a Simulacrum-capable PC with at least one level 7+ slot remaining.

A DM who allows full-powered Simulacra a la PHB rules deserves what he gets. In AD&D they are about half as powerful as a PC and need a Limited Wish to gain real volition, and are useful primarily as an illusion not a combat force multiplier. 5e gave them full power but restricted HP and spell recovery; that was a poor design decision.

Otherwise we should be discussing whether an infinite number of sorlocks has a bigger nova than an infinite number of Evokers, and that's a boring discussion IMO.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The key feature is that this ranged damage is available to ANY charisma based class with just 2 levels of warlock.

- Agonizing blast is d10+cha and scales by character level. This is decent competitive damage to most builds over the entire level range. [snip] If you want to take rounds to set it up, you can cast hex as a bonus action (d6 extra damage each) in the first round and hexblade's curse (+proficiency ... +6/hit in tier 4) giving a grand total of 12 * (d10+d6+cha+6) .. however, even without the boost from the other sources, it is still decent at-will damage compared to the other basic builds.

Basic agonizing blast is pretty comparable to either of these with an investment of 2 levels in warlock.

I think this is a lot of the reason you hear so much about EB being powerful ranged damage. It isn't so much that it's extremely effective as your main attack for a warlock. It's that it's such a small investment for a bard, sorcerer or even paladin (2 levels), and it makes them suddenly competitively effective at-will damage dealers at reasonably long range.

[MaxWilson]

I think this is a lot of the reason you hear so much about EB being powerful ranged damage. It isn't so much that it's extremely effective as your main attack for a warlock. It's that it's such a small investment for a bard, sorcerer or even paladin (2 levels), and it makes them suddenly competitively effective at-will damage dealers at reasonably long range.

Yes! It multiplies their at-will damage by at least a factor of two. In the bard's case more like a factor of four, at high levels when crossbows are obsolete. Plus Repelling Blast tricks that can protect and add even more control or damage.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm aware of the Hexblade/Evoker/MM nuke, so I can accept that there are better examples, but if you're relying on Path to the Grave + Meteor Swarm here, they don't even work together because Meteor Swarm has no attack roll. So you're back to 145 or 75, save for half.



I agree with the basic point that EB is filler. It is quite a nice at-will, no-concentration attack, but it also can induce MADness and it's only stronger than e.g. a Necromancer's squad of skeletons in niche situations.

EB is more attractive to cheapskates who like to save their spell slots for emergencies than to big spenders who love to nova. I happen to be one of those cheapskates.

Dear lawd save spells are awful.

That said.

I'm in the camp of "Poke damage is... poke damage." where things that are not relevant are... just not relevant and that optimizing irrelevant things is irrelevant.

Call this diagonal agreement I guess?

[Rukelnikov]

No.

Maximized M swarm hits for 240 and is not even good single target. We'll use evoker here so 245, x2 from simulacrum, 490. Save for half is bad here but yeaaaaah.

Good single target is turn 1 no-save dead.

I did err in locks favor with napkin math lol

Ok lets compare it,

1d10 * 1000 from 1000 simulacrums = 1000d10 = 5500 damage (i'm not attacking, i don't have 1000 simulacrums to dirty my own hands)

Don't use infinite damage generating stuff, simulacrum is broken.

[sleepyhead]

This is what I came up with.
4D10+20+4d6(hex)+24(Hexblade's Curse)*2(action surge)*2(quickened casting)*2(assassinate)
So in total, you got 32d10+160+32d6+192
Average damage of 672 against enemies that hasn´t taken an action yet
Think I got that all right

[Arcangel4774]

Its less that its high, and more that for 2 levels of investment its on par to most martial damage. You can then invest elsewhere without falling behind in combat

[Nhorianscum]

Ok lets compare it,

1d10 * 1000 from 1000 simulacrums = 1000d10 = 5500 damage (i'm not attacking, i don't have 1000 simulacrums to dirty my own hands)

Don't use infinite damage generating stuff, simulacrum is broken.

I was not* to referring to infinite loops.

Just that single target blast damage goes over the max HP of any critter we want to... kill with spells.

[sleepyhead]

Its less that its high, and more that for 2 levels of investment its on par to most martial damage. You can then invest elsewhere without falling behind in combat

Still one shoting the demogorgon is pretty cool, and you know the OP was asking about the high damage potential of EB.

[Rukelnikov]

There are many reasons why EB is great:

First and foremost the incredibly low investment it requires, 2 lvls of warlock and one invocation of the two you gain from those 2 lvls, thats it. After that you can build any character you want (as long as its Cha based). This frees up a lot of ASIs enabling you to max Cha early on while still doing good damage.

Second, it being a spell with Force damage type means 99% of the time you will be doing full damage, and if you invest in Repelling Blast, the repositioning aspect of the spell is often more important than the mage it deals, making you able to kite almost anything all day long.

Third, it allows for many "combos" the most common one being Sorcerer Quicken. This makes EB + QEB your bread and butter, comparable to Ftr damage at the manageable cost of 2 sp/r, you are likely to be able to keep this up most rounds of combat.

However, the thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that EB + QEB is not what makes EB great IMO. The way in which EB's damage is great is by being add on top of anything, whatever spell you were gonna cast in your action, cast it in the bonus action, and add an extra EB to it, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, whatever you cast, now comes with an EB on top, that's IMO where its damage becomes amazing, since the closest concentration free competitor it has would be Firebolt, and fire resistance and immunity are not unusual.


Its less that its high, and more that for 2 levels of investment its on par to most martial damage. You can then invest elsewhere without falling behind in combat

Yeah, that's the best it has.

[MaxWilson]

40d6

Nuclear wiz/sorc is a build.

Note:

Biggest downside to the Hexblade/Magic Missile combo is that it is extremely short-ranged: 30' for Hexblade's Curse, 120' for Magic Missile, whereas a Warlock can do their at-will damage at up to 600' (depending on build). That could mean several rounds of free shots while a dragon is closing in on the party, or not being rendered helpless in an archery duel (against e.g. a dragon strafing or a Storm Giant Quintessent).

The limited-use nature of Hexblade's Curse is also a disadvantage but a less serious one. If it weren't for the range limitation, it would just mean that you only use the combo on the biggest threat you expect to face before your next short rest. But the range limitation is what makes it so you might not get to use it at all, except against a chump meatshield.

=====================================


This is what I came up with.
4D10+20+4d6(hex)+24(Hexblade's Curse)*2(action surge)*2(quickened casting)*2(assassinate)
So in total, you got 32d10+160+32d6+192
Average damage of 672 against enemies that hasn´t taken an action yet
Think I got that all right

How can you possibly have Hexblade's Curse and Hex on a target before the round starts (so you still have your bonus action for Quicken), and yet still be eligible to use Assassinate on the first round of combat? Under what circumstances would you still be on the first round of combat when you do this?

Also, Action Surge will not give you an extra Quickened Casting, nor will Assassinate multiply your static damage (+20 and +24), so it's incorrect to multiply all of the *2s together. If you did manage to stack all of these guys, it would be more like

(((4d10+4d6) * 2 (Assassinate) )+20 (Agonizing Blast) +24 (Hexblade's Curse))*3 (Action Surge, Quickened Casting) = 24d10+24d6+152 = 368, if all attacks hit.

======================================


However, the thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that EB + QEB is not what makes EB great IMO. The way in which EB's damage is great is by being add on top of anything, whatever spell you were gonna cast in your action, cast it in the bonus action, and add an extra EB to it, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, whatever you cast, now comes with an EB on top, that's IMO where its damage becomes amazing, since the closest concentration free competitor it has would be Firebolt, and fire resistance and immunity are not unusual.

This is doubly true if the spell you just cast synergizes somehow with Repelling Blast. Let's say you cast Evard's Black Tentacles where a monster is standing. Nothing happens until it starts its next turn, and then it has to save or take 3d6 damage and become restrained. However, if you cast Quickened Evard's Black Tentacles behind the monster and then Repelling Blast it backwards, it has to make a save immediately, and if it fails it takes 3d6 damage and is restrained and then takes another 3d6 damage at the start of its next turn. Meanwhile all of your allies are getting advantage on attacks against it, so Quickened EBT + Repelling Blast not only increases the EBT damage but also increases the damage from your allies.

Unfortunately most sorcs do not have access to Evard's Black Tentacles without multiclassing to wizard, but I love that spell so I used it as my example anyway. If you're into UA, the Aberrant Mind (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-AberrantLurk.pdf) can cast Evard's Black Tentacles though, without even using any components even.

Quickened Spike Growth + Repelling Blast is much easier to get on a sorlock than EBT is. Prismatic Wall would probably be the ideal, if it were possible.

[Nhorianscum]

Note:

Biggest downside to the Hexblade/Magic Missile combo is that it is extremely short-ranged: 30' for Hexblade's Curse, 120' for Magic Missile, whereas a Warlock can do their at-will damage at up to 600' (depending on build). That could mean several rounds of free shots while a dragon is closing in on the party, or not being rendered helpless in an archery duel (against e.g. a dragon strafing or a Storm Giant Quintessent).

The limited-use nature of Hexblade's Curse is also a disadvantage but a less serious one. If it weren't for the range limitation, it would just mean that you only use the combo on the biggest threat you expect to face before your next short rest. But the range limitation is what makes it so you might not get to use it at all, except against a chump meatshield.

To be fair these limitations also apply to anyone using hexcurse to buff EB.

Blasting this way is really just a form of no-save control. I feel that as fullcasters our priority when save-or-suck/die spells are viable will be on those.

In the listed case of an extreme range dragonbird I feel that optimal play for both builds is reshaping the field of play into a favorable one for the party.

[Misterwhisper]

Note:

Biggest downside to the Hexblade/Magic Missile combo is that it is extremely short-ranged: 30' for Hexblade's Curse, 120' for Magic Missile, whereas a Warlock can do their at-will damage at up to 600' (depending on build). That could mean several rounds of free shots while a dragon is closing in on the party, or not being rendered helpless in an archery duel (against e.g. a dragon strafing or a Storm Giant Quintessent).

The limited-use nature of Hexblade's Curse is also a disadvantage but a less serious one. If it weren't for the range limitation, it would just mean that you only use the combo on the biggest threat you expect to face before your next short rest. But the range limitation is what makes it so you might not get to use it at all, except against a chump meatshield.



How can you possibly have Hexblade's Curse and Hex on a target before the round starts (so you still have your bonus action for Quicken), and yet still be eligible to use Assassinate on the first round of combat? Under what circumstances would you still be on the first round of combat when you do this?

Also, Action Surge will not give you an extra Quickened Casting, nor will Assassinate multiply your static damage (+20 and +24), so it's incorrect to multiply all of the *2s together. If you did manage to stack all of these guys, it would be more like

(((4d10+4d6) * 2 (Assassinate) )+20 (Agonizing Blast) +24 (Hexblade's Curse))*3 (Action Surge, Quickened Casting) = 24d10+24d6+152 = 368, if all attacks hit.

His math is just plain wrong too, that is not how those abilities would be added and multiplied, or even how they actually work.

This is what happens when people who have not played long enough try to Min-Max.

[MaxWilson]

To be fair these limitations also apply to anyone using hexcurse to buff EB.

Absolutely! It's not Iron Wizard-specific, it's a Hexblade thing, and it's why I wouldn't count on Hexblade's Curse against anything worthy of a nova unless the DM is into villains who fight like comic book villains: stand there and take it, laughing.

[Nhorianscum]

Absolutely! It's not Iron Wizard-specific, it's a Hexblade thing, and it's why I wouldn't count on Hexblade's Curse against anything worthy of a nova unless the DM is into villains who fight like comic book villains: stand there and take it, laughing.

I expanded on the post a bit. So I could do this...

*laughs in DDoor*

[Rukelnikov]

This is doubly true if the spell you just cast synergizes somehow with Repelling Blast. Let's say you cast Evard's Black Tentacles where a monster is standing. Nothing happens until it starts its next turn, and then it has to save or take 3d6 damage and become restrained. However, if you cast Quickened Evard's Black Tentacles behind the monster and then Repelling Blast it backwards, it has to make a save immediately, and if it fails it takes 3d6 damage and is restrained and then takes another 3d6 damage at the start of its next turn. Meanwhile all of your allies are getting advantage on attacks against it, so Quickened EBT + Repelling Blast not only increases the EBT damage but also increases the damage from your allies.

Yup, lots of possible synergies there.


Unfortunately most sorcs do not have access to Evard's Black Tentacles without multiclassing to wizard, but I love that spell so I used it as my example anyway. If you're into UA, the Aberrant Mind (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-AberrantLurk.pdf) can cast Evard's Black Tentacles though, without even using any components even.

My Sorlock was 9/8 Storm/GOO so I was able to pull that off a couple times :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

I expanded on the post a bit. So I could do this...

*laughs in DDoor*

If you just spent your action Dimension Dooring to within 30' of the strafing dragon, all you're doing is wasting your action and spending your reaction on Feather Fall.


In the listed case of an extreme range dragonbird I feel that optimal play for both builds is reshaping the field of play into a favorable one for the party.

That's the thing though: a favorable field of play is easier to obtain for a Sharpshooter or a Spell Sniper Agonizing Eldritch Spear sorlock than for a short-ranged Iron Wizard, so the Iron Wizard (or most other wizard builds) will need to do more reshaping to become effective. The Sharpshooter or Sorlock can make "long-range engagements" an unfavorable situation for the dragon, forcing the dragon to change its tactics (closing to melee or fleeing entirely), but against someone relying on Hexblade's Curse, medium-to-long-range engagements favor the dragon. (80' move + 90' breath weapon = 170' of threat.)

It's not a fatal flaw, but it is the biggest relative downside between the two builds.

Edit: Self-nitpick, even 600' is not a very long range, so a dragon doesn't actually have to "flee entirely". It could just back off to, say, a quarter-mile away and wait for its chance to hit back, when you're busy with another monster or something. Counter-nitpick: dragons in 5E move so slowly (~17 mph) that even when an opportunity arises, the fight could be over before the dragon gets there.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Absolutely! [snip] I wouldn't count on Hexblade's Curse against anything worthy of a nova unless the DM is into villains who fight like comic book villains: stand there and take it, laughing.

I get what you mean about the 30' range, but I think that's overstating it a little. All you have to do is get within 30' of the BBG on your turn to lay the curse down. Then you can back off and get back to a more comfortable blasting range (or more likely chase after the BBG and try and stay within blasting range).

[MaxWilson]

I get what you mean about the 30' range, but I think that's overstating it a little. All you have to do is get within 30' of the BBG on your turn to lay the curse down. Then you can back off and get back to a more comfortable blasting range (or more likely chase after the BBG and try and stay within blasting range).

You're probably right, I was unintentionally exaggerating.

[Nhorianscum]

If you just spent your action Dimension Dooring to within 30' of the strafing dragon, all you're doing is wasting your action and spending your reaction on Feather Fall.



That's the thing though: a favorable field of play is easier to obtain for a Sharpshooter or a Spell Sniper Agonizing Eldritch Spear sorlock than for a short-ranged Iron Wizard, so the Iron Wizard (or most other wizard builds) will need to do more reshaping to become effective.

It's not a fatal flaw, but it is the biggest relative downside between the two builds.

1. I cast magic missile at the darkness!

2. Who said anything about going alone? Personally? If teleportation is the play.... I'm riding backseat on a FGS snuggling the party paladin here. Smite > EB. I mean, sure as a tier 3 caster I can fly (often innately) but that pegasus is style.

[Misterwhisper]

You're probably right, I was unintentionally exaggerating.

I never got the point of Hex on a build that has quicken in the first place.

Just Blast and quicken blast every turn.

There are much better things for me to spend a 5th level spell slot on and concentration than Hex.

[MaxWilson]

I never got the point of Hex on a build that has quicken in the first place.

Just Blast and quicken blast every turn.

There are much better things for me to spend a 5th level spell slot on and concentration than Hex.

I believe we're discussing the Iron Wizard (1 Hexblade + Evoker X, lots of Magic Missile, optionally Fighter 2 for Action Surge at some point), which does not have Quicken.

[NNescio]

I never got the point of Hex on a build that has quicken in the first place.

Just Blast and quicken blast every turn.

There are much better things for me to spend a 5th level spell slot on and concentration than Hex.

You can cast Hex on a harmless critter (or an easy encounter, if you don't want to cheese it that much), kill it, short rest, and then have Hex up and ready for subsequent encounters so long as you can maintain concentration. Drop concentration on Hex only when you really need to cast a BFC spell or another buff.

[Nhorianscum]

You can cast Hex on a harmless critter (or an easy encounter, if you don't want to cheese it that much), kill it, short rest, and then have Hex up and ready for subsequent encounters so long as you can maintain concentration. Drop concentration on Hex only when you really need to cast a BFC spell or another buff.

Ignoring empower...

Hex on 20 hits deals 70 average over 5 eb's with surge we hit 84 but...

Quickened EB deals 62. Hex needs to be up for 5 EB's to come out ahead IE it has to stay up all 3 rounds even when surging and it puts us behind on damage until turn 3.

------

Hex can come out ahead very quickly with Sray rotations as those do crank up the hits/round but it's got wonky timing when cast in-combat unless you're running action surge (which is wonky). It's also hyper expensive with empower if your DM rules 1 SP/Proc rather than 1 for the set.

That said hex is very good before tier 3 and has good uses there.

[sleepyhead]

How can you possibly have Hexblade's Curse and Hex on a target before the round starts (so you still have your bonus action for Quicken), and yet still be eligible to use Assassinate on the first round of combat? Under what circumstances would you still be on the first round of combat when you do this?

Don't be seen?



Also, Action Surge will not give you an extra Quickened Casting, nor will Assassinate multiply your static damage (+20 and +24), so it's incorrect to multiply all of the *2s together. If you did manage to stack all of these guys, it would be more like

(((4d10+4d6) * 2 (Assassinate) )+20 (Agonizing Blast) +24 (Hexblade's Curse))*3 (Action Surge, Quickened Casting) = 24d10+24d6+152 = 368, if all attacks hit.


Thanks for the corrections, I have never been in the situation were I needed to use these mechanics before so nice. (still 3/4ths of a demogorgon though)



This is what happens when people who have not played long enough try to Min-Max.

Well do you wanna show us the math?

[MaxWilson]

Don't be seen?

Hmmm. Okay, I guess I can buy that interpretation under some circumstances. Like, this is a literal assassination, and you've disguised yourself as a butler and you use Subtle Hex + Hexblade's Curse while chatting with the target about his meal preparations, and then you suddenly blast them with magic.

It's not a very common scenario in actual play but it's not impossible.


Thanks for the corrections, I have never been in the situation were I needed to use these mechanics before so nice. (still 3/4ths of a demogorgon though)

Happy to help! No worries, 5E is very complex and the rules interactions are often non-obvious.

========================================


That said hex is very good before tier 3 and has good uses there.

IMO the best thing about Hex is versatility, via the effect it has on ability checks, combined with the quick casting time. If you've got a Paladin 6/Warlock 2 who took Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast and Hex mostly for ranged combat, that still allows you to Hex (Strength) + grapple + push prone a big enemy, all in one round, so that other PCs can beat on it at advantage and it has disadvantage trying to attack you (the grappler) back. If you've got Warcaster the fact that it's now prone even allows you to Eldritch Blast it with your shield hand without net disadvantage. It's a very cheap and powerful way to take out one enemy per combat, letting you save your spell slots for something actually important.

[HappyDaze]

I've never seen EB as being overpowered, but it is quite good for minimal investment. Any option that outdoes it generally requires far more rules mastery than many players care about, so it is a very strong option for casual players.

[MaxWilson]

I've never seen EB as being overpowered, but it is quite good for minimal investment. Any option that outdoes it generally requires far more rules mastery than many players care about, so it is a very strong option for casual players.

...but it's minimal investment only if you're already investing in heavy Cha. Bardlocks, sorlocks, padlocks are a popular thing for a reason; Eldritch Blast-oriented wizlocks, clerlocks, druidlocks, roguelocks, and fightlocks are a less-good idea, and are fortunately less-popular.

BTW from a fictional perspective this is really unfortunate. A fighter selling his soul for power and/or revenge should be a thing, but in 5E this translates to "take a few levels of warlock, and if your Cha is high then it will pay off for you." A better translation of the fiction would be more like, "add +10 Fighter levels, but if you ever fail to kill at least one innocent person every calendar month, those Fighter levels go away permanently," which will inevitably result in murder and treachery.

[Rukelnikov]

Ignoring empower...

Hex on 20 hits deals 70 average over 5 eb's with surge we hit 84 but...

Quickened EB deals 62. Hex needs to be up for 5 EB's to come out ahead IE it has to stay up all 3 rounds even when surging and it puts us behind on damage until turn 3.

------

Hex can come out ahead very quickly with Sray rotations as those do crank up the hits/round but it's got wonky timing when cast in-combat unless you're running action surge (which is wonky). It's also hyper expensive with empower if your DM rules 1 SP/Proc rather than 1 for the set.

That said hex is very good before tier 3 and has good uses there.

And how many slots did you burn in that encounter??

[BloodSnake'sCha]

EB is strong because it use more then one attack roll.

It open up more room for games.

[Nhorianscum]

And how many slots did you burn in that encounter??

The number I would anyways + hex?

If something demands hex tier 4 it's homebrew and probably CR TPK.

[Rukelnikov]

The number I would anyways + hex?

If something demands hex tier 4 it's homebrew and probably CR TPK.

What is that number?

[Nhorianscum]

What is that number?

What does purple taste like?

[Zuras]

Hex adds 1d6. Hexblade’s Curse adds proficiency bonus for Hexblades.


EB, Agonizing Blast, Hex and Hexblade’s Curse all stacked on each other produce a lot of damage. Add Elven Accuracy and you’re doing massive ranged damage that will also work in melee. At Tier 4 you add Foresight and are just blowing things apart. Doesn’t top a GWM or SS Fighter, but the only thing that causes you problems is a Rakshasa or a Lich with a Brooch of Shielding.

ETA: Players don’t talk about the power of Eldritch Blast because it’s the most powerful possible white room build. They talk about EB because it’s the high damage build most likely to be seen in actual play. It easily generates massive damage without doing anything complex or using a specialized multi-class build. My player with the Tier 4 Hexblade had plenty of spells and invocations left over to excel in melee, exploration and social situations from level 1 through 18.

[Nhorianscum]

EB, Agonizing Blast, Hex and Hexblade’s Curse all stacked on each other produce a lot of damage. Add Elven Accuracy and you’re doing massive ranged damage that will also work in melee. At Tier 4 you add Foresight and are just blowing things apart. Doesn’t top a GWM or SS Fighter, but the only thing that causes you problems is a Rakshasa or a Lich with a Brooch of Shielding.

What is brooch doing for the litch here?

[Yakmala]

Or just make a Wizard 18, Fighter 2.

Prismatic Wall > Action Surge > Reverse Gravity > Target(s) take 50d6 of assorted damage and some other nasty save or suck effects. > Voluntarily end Concentration on Reverse Gravity and let them fall through all the pretty colors a second time.

[MaxWilson]

What is brooch doing for the litch here?

Resistance to Force Damage.

[Dork_Forge]

Resistance to Force Damage.

AFB at the moment but doesn't it also provide resistance to force damage?

[Nhorianscum]

Resistance to Force Damage.

Fair nuff.

I just remember litches getting globe of invul by default (yes there's a lot of wobbly bits but as our only way to make them not-be-immune is to literally grab and drag them out I cannot see many situation's where EB is helping without brooch, I guess it's not casting....cloudkill?)