Can temporary hit points prevent death?

[SangoProduction]

So, say you are a normal barbarian, who rages. Rages like a little kid losing a video game.
And you take damage that would be sufficient to kill you, once your rage ends.

If somehow, someone slaps you in the face with a bunch of temporary hit points, right before your rage ends. This, if it were equivalent to a heal, would be enough to not die.

Will you live or will you die?

[Akkristor]

You would live, until the temp hit points wear off.

[Mr Adventurer]

Seems like temporary hit points are real hit points that are temporary, and not some special class of other hit point:


When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.

[Buufreak]

It would be comparable to the surge, a last burst of energy and livelihood that some people experience after sickness or trauma, right before they day.

[Biggus]

I don't know of any reason to think they wouldn't save you, do you?

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't know of any reason to think they wouldn't save you, do you?

To be fair, I have similar confusion about ability score damage. If I have a Bear's Endurance spell on me, and my Constitution is damaged to 0, then surely I have 0 + 4 = 4 Constitution and am not dead, no matter how much more Con damage I take? Ability score damage doesn't cancel spells, and ability scores can't go below 0, so...?

[Flame of Anor]

To be fair, I have similar confusion about ability score damage. If I have a Bear's Endurance spell on me, and my Constitution is damaged to 0, then surely I have 0 + 4 = 4 Constitution and am not dead, no matter how much more Con damage I take? Ability score damage doesn't cancel spells, and ability scores can't go below 0, so...?

Very interesting question. If you have a solid source for saying that ability scores can't be damaged below zero, I think you must be right.

[Elkad]

To be fair, I have similar confusion about ability score damage. If I have a Bear's Endurance spell on me, and my Constitution is damaged to 0, then surely I have 0 + 4 = 4 Constitution and am not dead, no matter how much more Con damage I take? Ability score damage doesn't cancel spells, and ability scores can't go below 0, so...?

No.

That's in the same bucket as drowning people to heal them.

Your Constitution isn't 0. It's 4. If you take 4 more con damage, you die. If the spell wears off, you die.

Look at Dexterity instead. 0+4, you take 2 more damage putting you at 0+2. Spell wears off. You lose 4 dexterity. 2-4=0 in this case. You are paralyzed. 3 points of Restoration would get you to Dex:3, not Dex:1.


The only other rational way to run it would be to call Bear's Endurance "Temporary Constitution" and run it just like temp hitpoints. So if you took 4 or less Con damage in the fight, when the spell wore off, you'd have no Con damage at all.

[Mr Adventurer]

Very interesting question. If you have a solid source for saying that ability scores can't be damaged below zero, I think you must be right.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss

"Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...right before they day.You mean "right before the long night," right?

[Mr Adventurer]

That's in the same bucket as drowning people to heal them.

You're saying I'm correct by RAW? :smallconfused:


Your Constitution isn't 0. It's 4. If you take 4 more con damage, you die.

You got any support for that, or you just in the business of making declarations?


If the spell wears off, you die.

Obvs.


Look at Dexterity instead.

Why, what difference does it make?


0+4, you take 2 more damage putting you at 0+2. Spell wears off. You lose 4 dexterity. 2-4=0 in this case. You are paralyzed. 3 points of Restoration would get you to Dex:3, not Dex:1.

I know how addition and subtraction works, thanks. And you're just restating your opinion.


No.

Get outta here with that attitude.

[Mordaedil]

Magical enhancements are subject to reduction just as much as your base attributes are, otherwise inherent bonus +1 to all bonuses would make you basically immortal from any reduction in ability scores. Nowhere does it state that reducing ability scores only affect the base score. That magic enhancement is just as much subject to reduction as your base. And it doesn't conflict with the idea that you don't need to track below 0, because if you hit 0 or would go below you are just dead.

[Mr Adventurer]

Magical enhancements are subject to reduction just as much as your base attributes are, otherwise inherent bonus +1 to all bonuses would make you basically immortal from any reduction in ability scores. Nowhere does it state that reducing ability scores only affect the base score. That magic enhancement is just as much subject to reduction as your base. And it doesn't conflict with the idea that you don't need to track below 0, because if you hit 0 or would go below you are just dead.

Cool, but what if I get a new spell, then? I've got a Cat's Grace, I get damaged to Dex 0, the wizard cancels the spell, I'm still on Dex 0, then the wizard casts Cat's Grace on me again? Same for taking off and putting back on enhancement items?

[Mordaedil]

Yes, that would actually raise your ability score to 4. Which is fine for say, cat's grace and bull's strength, but it's too little too late for bear's endurance.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, that would actually raise your ability score to 4. Which is fine for say, cat's grace and bull's strength, but it's too little too late for bear's endurance.

Of course, but the question is the general one.

So, if someone has been knocked unconscious by Ray of Stupidity, you can just lift their hat and put it back on them, and they'll be up again? (Where their hat is a Headband of Intellect, I mean)

[ben-zayb]

Of course, but the question is the general one.

So, if someone has been knocked unconscious by Ray of Stupidity, you can just lift their hat and put it back on them, and they'll be up again? (Where their hat is a Headband of Intellect, I mean)
No, you try them on first. After the Intelligence boost, you'd know better if keeping the loot might actually be the better decision.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ha!:smallbiggrin:

[Flame of Anor]

Magical enhancements are subject to reduction just as much as your base attributes are, otherwise inherent bonus +1 to all bonuses would make you basically immortal from any reduction in ability scores. Nowhere does it state that reducing ability scores only affect the base score. That magic enhancement is just as much subject to reduction as your base.

I'd love to see a source for that, because it sounds more like "it would make sense this way" than a literal interpretation of the rules.

You're probably right (I haven't checked) that the rules don't say that ability damage only affects ability scores, but that's because it's the default. Look at the most similar situation—spells that increase your HP. Note that those spells explicitly do not grant an enhancement bonus to HP, but rather use the separate mechanic of temporary HP. If bear's endurance were meant to work like that, there would be a coordinate "temporary ability score points" mechanic that worked like temporary HP.

[Biggus]

I'd love to see a source for that, because it sounds more like "it would make sense this way" than a literal interpretation of the rules.

You're probably right (I haven't checked) that the rules don't say that ability damage only affects ability scores, but that's because it's the default. Look at the most similar situation—spells that increase your HP. Note that those spells explicitly do not grant an enhancement bonus to HP, but rather use the separate mechanic of temporary HP. If bear's endurance were meant to work like that, there would be a coordinate "temporary ability score points" mechanic that worked like temporary HP.

I don't think it's justified to say that it's the default just because HPs work that way. There are several differences between how HPs and ability scores work, so you can't assume what works for one works for the other.

[Mordaedil]

Of course, but the question is the general one.

So, if someone has been knocked unconscious by Ray of Stupidity, you can just lift their hat and put it back on them, and they'll be up again? (Where their hat is a Headband of Intellect, I mean)

Depends. Can an unconscious person equip an item? It kinda comes down to how you want to rule it as a DM. Casting the spell on a character would seemingly work though.

[Flame of Anor]

I don't think it's justified to say that it's the default just because HPs work that way.

Well, then, what is the default? Nowhere in the game is it standard practice that damaging something also reduces a bonus to that thing. Ability damage damages ability scores; it is simply logical to assume, in the absence of other data, that ability damage only damages ability scores.

[Quertus]

So, if someone has been knocked unconscious by Ray of Stupidity, you can just lift their hat and put it back on them, and they'll be up again? (Where their hat is a Headband of Intellect, I mean)

It's a pity that this trick (or Continent Owl's Wisdom) couldn't save my Tainted Sorcerer characters from Taint. Not that they'd be wise enough to think of it themselves, of course. :smalltongue:

[Remuko]

Well, then, what is the default? Nowhere in the game is it standard practice that damaging something also reduces a bonus to that thing. Ability damage damages ability scores; it is simply logical to assume, in the absence of other data, that ability damage only damages ability scores.

the default is simple. If you have int 10 and get spell/item on you that raises ur int by 4, then your score is 14 while wearing that item or for the spells duration. if something lowers your int it lowers that score. the modifier isnt constantly reapplied, for its duration it IS your score. So if you take 14 int damage your into goes to 0.

[SangoProduction]

Well, then, what is the default? Nowhere in the game is it standard practice that damaging something also reduces a bonus to that thing. Ability damage damages ability scores; it is simply logical to assume, in the absence of other data, that ability damage only damages ability scores.

Then you take the logical conclusion of that assumption, find it dysfunctional, and then reassess your assumption.

[Mr Adventurer]

the default is simple. If you have int 10 and get spell/item on you that raises ur int by 4, then your score is 14 while wearing that item or for the spells duration. if something lowers your int it lowers that score. the modifier isnt constantly reapplied, for its duration it IS your score. So if you take 14 int damage your into goes to 0.

Cool. So if I take off the item, my Int is still 0. What if I then put it back on?

EDIT: Technically I guess I wouldn't be taking it off and putting it on - I'd need a friend to do it! ;)

[SangoProduction]

Cool. So if I take off the item, my Int is still 0. What if I then put it back on?

EDIT: Technically I guess I wouldn't be taking it off and putting it on - I'd need a friend to do it! ;)

The rules don't specify, but is there a particular reason why ability scores would stop at 0 and not go negative?

[Mr Adventurer]

The rules don't specify, but is there a particular reason why ability scores would stop at 0 and not go negative?

I found the relevant SRD bit earlier:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss

"Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0."

[SangoProduction]

I found the relevant SRD bit earlier:

OK, in that case if a temporary bonus is removed, and then added, then it would revive someone from the 0 attribute status....aside from Con. Although you could probably use a contingent-con-booster and have it cast on the person you're looking to revive, in the case of someone who'd immediately die again because of their con stat being drained.

[Flame of Anor]

the modifier isnt constantly reapplied, for its duration it IS your score. So if you take 14 int damage your into goes to 0.

No, it is not your score, it is your effective score, consisting of your actual score plus an enhancement bonus. If you're arguing that damage—or indeed anything short of ending/suppressing the magic involved—can reduce an enhancement bonus, you really have to turn up some textual evidence for that.


Then you take the logical conclusion of that assumption, find it dysfunctional, and then reassess your assumption.

Of course it's dysfunctional! I never said it makes sense that the rules work this way, just that they do work this way.

[Akkristor]

Question: Is damage something that is only applied once, or is it something that is continuously applied until healed?

If i have a INT of 5 and a +4 item, i have an effective int of 9.
If i then take 9 INT damage, i have an effective int of 0.

But the question is, do I have 0 int, or do i have 5 int, +4 Enhancement to my int, and 9 int Damage.

If i take the int item off, i still have an effective int of 0, but is that 5 int with 5 damage, or 5 int with 9 damage?

When I put the hat back on, is my int 0 or 4? Am i 5 int with 4 enhancement and 5 damage, or 5 int with 4 enhancement and 9 damage?



To put this another way, can you have more damage to an ability score than the score itself? The ability score itself can never go below zero, but it would increase the amount of time and effort taken to restore the ability to a non-zero number.

[Mr Adventurer]

Question: Is damage something that is only applied once, or is it something that is continuously applied until healed?

If i have a INT of 5 and a +4 item, i have an effective int of 9.
If i then take 9 INT damage, i have an effective int of 0.

But the question is, do I have 0 int, or do i have 5 int, +4 Enhancement to my int, and 9 int Damage.

If i take the int item off, i still have an effective int of 0, but is that 5 int with 5 damage, or 5 int with 9 damage?

When I put the hat back on, is my int 0 or 4? Am i 5 int with 4 enhancement and 5 damage, or 5 int with 4 enhancement and 9 damage?



To put this another way, can you have more damage to an ability score than the score itself? The ability score itself can never go below zero, but it would increase the amount of time and effort taken to restore the ability to a non-zero number.


My understanding is that damage doesn't add up - it instead reduces your points (hit, ability, whatever). So it's not tracked and applied in the way you describe.

[SangoProduction]

Of course it's dysfunctional! I never said it makes sense that the rules work this way, just that they do work this way.

Except you are saying they work through your interpretation, and your interpretation is dysfunctional.
Meanwhile there's another interpretation which is not dysfunctional.

You should probably revise your interpretation.

[Remuko]

No, it is not your score, it is your effective score, consisting of your actual score plus an enhancement bonus. If you're arguing that damage—or indeed anything short of ending/suppressing the magic involved—can reduce an enhancement bonus, you really have to turn up some textual evidence for that.

A Str 10 with a Bulls Str gives you an effective Str of 14 yes. That means for all purposes your Str is 14 for the duration. And changes to the stat is made to the 14 because that is your stat, for the duration, for all purposes.