Dragonborn 3.5

[mouser13]

The group I'm in have question boil down to says dragon bord retains his type. So does that mean he keep the traits that from it.


Examples planetouch as darkvision, weapon proc, and eating, breathing,sleeping which are defined as type traits.

I say keeps them others are saying that their all racial traits even though under type traits. WHich I say is more broken losing eating, breathing, sleeping sense their defined under racial traits seems broken.

[16bearswutIdo]

Races of the Dragon explicitly spells it out on pg 10.

" Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race. "

"Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses, save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth. Two specific instances warrant clarification."

The two circumstances are feats and skill points


They keep their type and subtypes, but lose the racial traits. So if they had a racial trait that allowed them to not eat or gave them tremorsense or something, they'd lose those.

[mouser13]

Well that the question are things listed under type traits still racial traits and are removed.

Example

I say no because you retain your type. Others are saying you do even though their under type their still part of your race and their for are removed. Problem with that is most races have the ability to eat, sleep, breath defined in their type traits. So questions if those are removed or not. I say you keep them sense retain your type.

[Mr Adventurer]

Looks to me like you keep your traits from your creature Type, since those aren't referenced in the change (IIRC). Some things that are Type traits are sometimes also listed under a creature's Racial traits. This is presumably because they are unusual and worth repeating, but in any case they are removed, and it doesn't matter since they are still also listed under the Type.

[16bearswutIdo]

If it's something specific to the race, they lose it. If it's to the type, they keep it.

Ex. Halflings would lose their sling bonuses, gnomes would lose their illusion bonus, but they would both retain the need to eat, breathe, and sleep since that's a type-specific trait that isn't overridden by race-specific traits.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You keep everything that comes with your type and subtype(s).

A Dragonborn Warforged is still a Construct (Living Construct) and still has everything that comes with that type/subtype, for example.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a

[Silvercrys]

Similarly, a Neraph Dragonborn retains proficiency with martial weapons and Darkvision because those features of the Outsider type, but loses Neraph-specific features like Camouflage.

Aasimar and Tieflings retain those, also, and lose their racial SLAs and such.

I think RAW your LA remains the same but since it's based on the racial features you're losing I'd probably allow you to get rid of it -- though that leads to silly things like playing a +3 LA race and then losing the template later to get faster level ups, it's not really any worse than Shapechange shenanigans.

[Mr Adventurer]

, it's not really any worse than Shapechange shenanigans.

That is a pretty low bar and not where I'd set my whole-game balance point! :smallbiggrin:

[Silvercrys]

That is a pretty low bar and not where I'd set my whole-game balance point! :smallbiggrin:

Touché!

I guess my point is that if you're a Spellcaster you can just Shapechange or Polymorph into your "old" form if you really wanted and if you aren't a Spellcaster then you... aren't a Spellcaster. At whichever point you lose the template for the ECL boost you'll have a long slog before your next level.

Most of the really good high LA forms also have RHD to go with them and you can't get rid of those, so if you want to play a Dragonborn Succubus with 6RHD and no LA go for it.

I guess the ability adjustments might be good enough to make it worth it alone but I prefer pretty high power games anyway -- your mileage, as always, will vary.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You keep everything that comes with your type and subtype(s).

A Dragonborn Warforged is still a Construct (Living Construct) and still has everything that comes with that type/subtype, for example.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112aIIRC, warforged are the best race for this template, since the only things they lose are their slam attack and their body armor (which otherwise costs a feat to remove, thereby granting you the benefit of a free feat). They even count as warforged for warforged components.

One of my favorite race/template combos (along with Dragonwrought kobolds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)).

[Mr Adventurer]

Touché!

I guess my point is that if you're a Spellcaster you can just Shapechange or Polymorph into your "old" form if you really wanted

If you do this, you become an average version of your race, don't you? 10s and 11s across the board?

[Celestia]

IIRC, warforged are the best race for this template, since the only things they lose are their slam attack and their body armor (which otherwise costs a feat to remove, thereby granting you the benefit of a free feat). They even count as warforged for warforged components.

One of my favorite race/template combos (along with Dragonwrought kobolds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)).
And a reasonable DM could probably be convinced to let you keep the slam attack because eliminating natural weapons was probably an oversight, anyways.

[Ramza00]

IIRC, warforged are the best race for this template, since the only things they lose are their slam attack and their body armor (which otherwise costs a feat to remove, thereby granting you the benefit of a free feat). They even count as warforged for warforged components.

One of my favorite race/template combos (along with Dragonwrought kobolds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)).

Agreed but it also allows you to easily reflavor Dragonborn to something else.

For example want to create Archangel from the X-Men comics after Magneto modified him. Well take a Warforged and a Dragonborn with the Wings Aspect and you get a humanoid creature that can fly that also has the living construct type which represent his partial technological / celestial / death seed origins.

Dragonborn are cool by themselves, but they are also cool when you reflavor them, they are thus one of my favorite races do to all the possibilities. What I am saying is normal dragonborn are cool, but also "mutant" dragonborn are cool as well even if they are "deviants."


And a reasonable DM could probably be convinced to let you keep the slam attack because eliminating natural weapons was probably an oversight, anyways.

If it was me as DM, I would say Dragonborn can regain slam as a secondary natural attack in addition to main attacks as a feat. Furthermore as a houserule I would say a dragonborn that loses its natural attacks such as slam, could still slam as a primary natural attack without a feat but without a feat they lose all manufactured weapon attacks much like how you can't attack with a hand claw in a weapon you are wielding a hand.

And I would also allow the Races of Eberron feat, Second Slam as an additional feat you can take on top of homebrew regain your slam as a feat.

[Katie Boundary]

A Dragonborn Warforged is still a Construct (Living Construct) and still has everything that comes with that type/subtype, for example.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070112a


IIRC, warforged are the best race for this template, since the only things they lose are their slam attack and their body armor (which otherwise costs a feat to remove, thereby granting you the benefit of a free feat).

This brings up an interesting dilemma: if a Warforged were to take the Mithral, Ironwood, or Adamantine plating feats during character-creation, and then go through the Ritual of Bahamut, would they lose their plating feat?

Alternate platings aren't a bonus feat, so they wouldn't get erased the way a human bonus feat would be. And a Warforged Dragonborn still counts as a Warforged, so they wouldn't lose the feats due to no longer possessing the prerequisites... but on the other hand, I don't see why the ritual would care exactly what material your plating is made of.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This brings up an interesting dilemma: if a Warforged were to take the Mithral, Ironwood, or Adamantine plating feats during character-creation, and then go through the Ritual of Bahamut, would they lose their plating feat?

Alternate platings aren't a bonus feat, so they wouldn't get erased the way a human bonus feat would be. And a Warforged Dragonborn still counts as a Warforged, so they wouldn't lose the feats due to no longer possessing the prerequisites... but on the other hand, I don't see why the ritual would care exactly what material your plating is made of.

Why would you lose it? You're still a warforged, you're just an adamantine dragon version of one.

[Katie Boundary]

Why would you lose it?

For the same reason you'd lose the Composite plating. One might argue that because the feats explicitly replace the composite plating, they do nothing if there is no composite plating to replace.

[Afghanistan]

For the same reason you'd lose the Composite plating. One might argue that because the feats explicitly replace the composite plating, they do nothing if there is no composite plating to replace.

The Composite Plating is not required for the Adamantine Body feat. You could argue it, but you'd be house ruling it. Personally? I'd house rule it the same way.

[Katie Boundary]

The alternate plating feats all say "Without this feat, your warforged character has an armor bonus of +2." So the ASSUMPTION is there.