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Sparhafoc
2019-10-02, 11:30 AM
Hi all

Never played D&D before, but have just found a group of inexperienced players and a dedicated DM to start up with.

Given the other party members all had classes they wanted right from the outset, I was basically left with tanking.

I decided to play Paladin, and after much reading and thought about back-stories, I decided on the Conquest Paladin.

I picked Half Elf as it seems to fit both class abilities and rp. I want to play sword and shield.

These three bolded parts are non-negotiable now as I've woven them into my backstory.

What I am struggling to do is come up with a sensible stat distribution - I can't find a way which doesn't leave odd numbers hanging around - and select which feats will be most valuable.

I know I want to take CHA to 20 probably asap, but do I need STR at 20 ultimately too? If so, what CON should I aim for? I'd prefer to keep DEX and WIS at 10 if possible.

The top feats on my list seem to be: Resilient (CON) for concentration, Sentinel particularly for when facing fear immune enemies, Shield Master to use bonus attack to knock prone with 0 movement from aura, Heavy Armor Master for defense and the +1 strength.

Given these and point buy, could you suggest how to distribute my starting ability scores, what stats I should expect to get over the course of the game, and which feats I should go for and what ASI points I should pick feats or stats?

Thanks very much for any suggestions.

Nefariis
2019-10-02, 12:30 PM
Hi all

Never played D&D before, but have just found a group of inexperienced players and a dedicated DM to start up with.

Given the other party members all had classes they wanted right from the outset, I was basically left with tanking.

I decided to play Paladin, and after much reading and thought about back-stories, I decided on the Conquest Paladin.

I picked Half Elf as it seems to fit both class abilities and rp. I want to play sword and shield.

These three bolded parts are non-negotiable now as I've woven them into my backstory.

What I am struggling to do is come up with a sensible stat distribution - I can't find a way which doesn't leave odd numbers hanging around - and select which feats will be most valuable.

I know I want to take CHA to 20 probably asap, but do I need STR at 20 ultimately too? If so, what CON should I aim for? I'd prefer to keep DEX and WIS at 10 if possible.

The top feats on my list seem to be: Resilient (CON) for concentration, Sentinel particularly for when facing fear immune enemies, Shield Master to use bonus attack to knock prone with 0 movement from aura, Heavy Armor Master for defense and the +1 strength.

Given these and point buy, could you suggest how to distribute my starting ability scores, what stats I should expect to get over the course of the game, and which feats I should go for and what ASI points I should pick feats or stats?

Thanks very much for any suggestions.


You are getting waaay to ahead of yourself.

I imagine you are starting at level 1?

with a Half-elf you can do 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 (with a 27 point buy)

The difference of picking STR or CHA to bump first is dependent on if you want to fight more or cast more.

If you wanted to get a 20 in a single stat you can do that by level 8 which means you are taking your first feat at level 12 - by level 12 you should know whether you would like to take Warcaster, Res(Con), ShieldMaster, or Sentinel.

Truthfully, instead of having levels 4-12 planned out, I would just play it by ear -

If you want to play a Half-Elf, Conquest Paladin, great! but you don't have to decide anything until level 4.

So at level 4 decide if you would like to take a bump in STR or CHA or if you would rather take a feat.

There isn't a 'right' way to build a Paladin, everything will be dependent on your play style and how you envision your character in and out of combat.

Guy Lombard-O
2019-10-02, 01:10 PM
You are getting waaay to ahead of yourself.

with a Half-elf you can do 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 (with a 27 point buy)

The difference of picking STR or CHA to bump first is dependent on if you want to fight more or cast more.

If you wanted to get a 20 in a single stat you can do that by level 8 which means you are taking your first feat at level 12 - by level 12 you should know whether you would like to take Warcaster, Res(Con), ShieldMaster, or Sentinel.

Truthfully, instead of having levels 4-12 planned out, I would just play it by ear -

If you want to play a Half-Elf, Conquest Paladin, great! but you don't have to decide anything until level 4.

So at level 4 decide if you would like to take a bump in STR or CHA or if you would rather take a feat.

There isn't a 'right' way to build a Paladin, everything will be dependent on your play style and how you envision your character in and out of combat.

There's a lot of good advice from Nafariis here, but I disagree a little about not planning ahead from character creation, since you're planning to take 1 or 2 of the half-stat feats. When I'm doing that, I always try to plan for it when buying stats during character creation.

I'd note that there's tons of great advice for Conquest paladin builds at the Wall of Fear guide (which is currently showing on page 1 of this GitP message board, so I'm assuming you've read that).

If you're certain you're going to take Res/Con, then I'd suggest only buying up to 15 in Con (after racial bonus).

The same could be said of Str and Heavy Armor Master, although you'll probably find getting a +2 attack stat until you take the feat especially painful, so I'd probably still go 16 Str. If you also start with a 17 Cha (with half-elf +2), then you could bump Cha to 18 and Str to 17 at the same time at 4th level, and then take HAM and get the 18 Str at 8th level. Then do Res Con at 12th, and +2 Cha at 16th (or possibly vice-versa). 20 Cha is great in a paladin (especially a Conquest), but 18 Cha is still pretty good.

In all honesty, though, I'd probably skip Heavy Armor Master. I'd build 16-10-15-8-10-16. Take +2 Cha at 4th, Res/Con at 8th, and Sentinel or +2 Cha at 12th.

Sparhafoc
2019-10-02, 01:51 PM
You are getting waaay to ahead of yourself.

Appreciated, but one of the things I found in computer games based on D&D rules that was really off-putting for me was not being able to plan out my character, and consequently bumping into obscure restrictions that meant I couldn't end up 'finishing' my desired character.

Considering how demoralizing that is for me, I just want to make sure I don't run into it after many months of investment.



I imagine you are starting at level 1?

That's right.



with a Half-elf you can do 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 (with a 27 point buy)

The 8's being in INT & WIS? Does having 8 WIS harm me long term - I appreciate I get the aura of protection to pick up the slack here, but given a have a proficiency in Wisdom, I wasn't sure if this was something I should be playing to? Tbh, I don't really understand a lot of the functions of these things - bit too much front-loaded information without having any experience as to how they work in practice.

I must have spent 3 hours playing with stats so far and this is one option I had overlooked out of concern for that WIS score.



The difference of picking STR or CHA to bump first is dependent on if you want to fight more or cast more.

I would guess that the build favours casting once I reach level 7, or at least, it's going to be what I need to work.



If you wanted to get a 20 in a single stat you can do that by level 8 which means you are taking your first feat at level 12 - by level 12 you should know whether you would like to take Warcaster, Res(Con), ShieldMaster, or Sentinel.

I expect that getting 20 in CHA is what I will mostly aim for, but is it worth b-lining for that, or do you think a feat might be worth putting that off for?



Truthfully, instead of having levels 4-12 planned out, I would just play it by ear -

If you want to play a Half-Elf, Conquest Paladin, great! but you don't have to decide anything until level 4.

So at level 4 decide if you would like to take a bump in STR or CHA or if you would rather take a feat.

There isn't a 'right' way to build a Paladin, everything will be dependent on your play style and how you envision your character in and out of combat.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and particularly the advice offered, but I really want to make sure I don't bump into demoralizing situations down the track.




There's a lot of good advice from Nafariis here, but I disagree a little about not planning ahead from character creation, since you're planning to take 1 or 2 of the half-stat feats. When I'm doing that, I always try to plan for it when buying stats during character creation.

That was definitely a consideration as most of the attribute distributions I toyed with left me with odd numbers that I was struggling to imagine how I'd even out along the way. But then, I also wasn't sure whether I'd be able to fit those feats in anyway. Definitely feels a little restrictive on feats to me.



I'd note that there's tons of great advice for Conquest paladin builds at the Wall of Fear guide (which is currently showing on page 1 of this GitP message board, so I'm assuming you've read that).

Indeed I have; in fact, that thread is what made me decide to join this forum to ask as everyone seems really helpful. Lots of good information that helped me picture the character, but obviously as it was trying to be general, it wasn't specifically tailored to my race & weapon choices. A lot of it was about Great Weapons or Polearms - both of which are tempting, but I decided to go classic sword and board.



If you're certain you're going to take Res/Con, then I'd suggest only buying up to 15 in Con (after racial bonus).

The same could be said of Str and Heavy Armor Master,...

It's these choices which are stressing me out! :smallbiggrin:

I am not even sure that Heavy Armor Master is worth 2 attributes... same can be said of shield master, but I would guess that either Resilient Con or Warcaster is pretty important, and the former at least offers the potential to solve an odd attribute layout. Sentinel also seems like it could have more impact on the game than shield or h armor master. Any suggestions on the worth of these 4 feats?




although you'll probably find getting a +2 attack stat until you take the feat especially painful, so I'd probably still go 16 Str. If you also start with a 17 Cha (with half-elf +2), then you could bump Cha to 18 and Str to 17 at the same time at 4th level, and then take HAM and get the 18 Str at 8th level. Then do Res Con at 12th, and +2 Cha at 16th (or possibly vice-versa). 20 Cha is great in a paladin (especially a Conquest), but 18 Cha is still pretty good.

I think I will probably aim for CHA 20 so I really specialize in intimidating the enemy - would a final STR score of 16 still let me perform adequately in melee? What about the minimum for CON with resilient constitution? Is 14 too low for a main tank? If I could get some idea of what the lowest these stats could be and still work out adequately, that'd be helpful too!

Thanks for the advice - I spent ages playing around with the build but I felt I just don't know enough to make solid decisions.

Nefariis
2019-10-02, 02:17 PM
You will actually be wearing heavy armor, so have your WIS 10 and you DEX 8.

So DEX and INT will be your "dump stats"

Also, the wonderful thing about dnd is that your character is not set in stone, this isn't an MMORPG with no re-dos.

Most DM's allow you to "retrain" every level or so - so if you are not feeling your selected feat, your ASI choice, or your spell selection - most of the time the DM will let you swap something out at the start of the next level.

DM's are about everyone having fun, and if you think you made a mistake they will more often than not allow you to choose something else.

So again, don't feel like you have to have everything selected up to level 7 - because honestly, you are 100% going to end up changing something down the road.

Or conversely, you might have to change your plan because of something out of your control like team composition, you end up losing an appendage, or you were tricked into a Geas by Elminster (again).

Sception
2019-10-02, 02:51 PM
The general rule with Conquest Paladin, if you don't plan to multiclass, is that stats are king. Conquerors effectively have two separate attack stats - typically strength and charisma. You want to start both of those stats at 16+ if you can at all help it, and want to get both to 20 post haste. Strength can cap out at 18, but 20 is better. In addition to attack rolls and save DCs, these stats fuel your main non-combat skill checks in athletics (which also has a lot of combat relevance) and various face skills.

Beyond those two primary stats, Conquerors also have a strong secondary stat in Constitution, being that you're a melee tank with a heavy reliance on concentration spells. Ideally, you'd like to start with 16 Constitution. Most Conquerors will end up settling for a 14 con instead, though half elf is one of the races that can manage a 16 con without sacrificing strength or charisma, and the previously recommended array of 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 is worth considering.

Beyond your primary and secondary stats, a Conqueror would really prefer not do dump dexterity or wisdom if possible. Dex saves are common and a tank with bad dexterity will tend to leak hp through failed dex saves. Further, dex sets your initiative, and given Conquest's heavy emphasis on control acting early can make a big difference on how a combat plays out. Wisdom saves are only slightly less common than dexterity saves and have much worse penalties for failure, plus perception is the most commonly called skill check in the game and like initiative rolls can have a big effect on how soon you're able to lock down a messy combat. Neither of these stats are /critical/, you can survive with a penalty in either, but you'd really rather not do so, hence why most Conquerors, even those that technically could put a 16 in starting strength, constitution, and charisma, like triton or human (with the right bonus feat) tend not to.

Intelligence is your only easy dump stat, but even there many Conqueror players would prefer not to for role playing reasons. A lovable oaf can play up the paladumb cliche and still get along with the party pretty well, but a Conqueror is generally going to come up shy in the 'lovable' part of that equation.


So yeah, heavy weight on your stats, both starting stats and stat advancement, meaning most non-multiclassing conquerors are unlikely to get to play around with more than a single feat in their progression, and that feat should almost always be invested in shoring up your concentration saves. IE, it should go into one of:

Resilient Constitution (if you have an odd Constitution or don't plan on multiclassing)

Warcaster (if you multiclass into something with access to the spells Shield and Booming Blade, typically hexblade warlock and/or divine sorcerer)


For a typical, non-human, non-multiclassing point buy Conqueror starting with 16 strength and charisma and planning to max both of them by level 20, that is all of your ASIs right there, so you can put heavy armor master, shield master, and so on right out of your head. Heavy armor master is legendary for its diminishing returns, and shield master loses a lot of its luster when you realize that, while shoving is really good, just giving up one of your normal attacks out of an attack action is typically a much smaller investment than burning both a bonus action (that could have gone into wrathful smite or spiritual weapon) and a precious, precious ASI. Especially when you can only even use that bonus action shove on a turn after you've already made an attack action that you could have shoved with anyway, you can't even use it to shove on a turn when you use Conquering Presence or Fear.

The bonus to dex saves means that Shield Master isn't bad at all, it's still a good feat, but it isn't good enough to sacrifice max attack stats or improved concentration saves, IMO anyway.

Same for every other feat with the exception of Sentinel. Sentinel is the reason I said strength 'can cap out at 18'. Access to sentinel is good enough to accept a -1 to hit and damage on all of your attacks. It's so good, so role defining for melee tanks, that most tank characters should take it at level one, and if you were playing a variant human I'd recommend it as your bonus feat. Conquerors get enough lockdown out of Aura of Conquest that you can afford to let it wait a while, and honestly probably won't have room for it until near the end of your progression, but if you were going to take just one feat apart from resilient or warcaster, sentinel should be it.



So progression wise, again assuming single classed half elf conqueror, I'd look at something like
half elf soldier paladin
post-racial bonus starting stats: s16, d10, c15, i8, w10, h16
racial skills: perception, deception
class skills: persuasion, insight
background: athletics, intimidation
ASIs:
4: +2 charisma
8: +2 charisma
12: resilient: constitution
16: +2 strength
19: sentinel

If you're lucky enough to have your DM throw one of the fixed strength items at you - gauntlets of ogre power or belt of giant strength, by level 16, then take sentinel at 16 instead, and at level 19 I'd recommend alert or maybe inspiring leader.


That's how I'd go about it anyway. You might swap the +2 charisma at level 4 with the +2 strength at level 16. Conquest guides can slightly overvalue charisma given that frighten immunity, legendary resistance, and enemies with wisdom saves good enough to shrug off any realistic save DC are all things in this game, and even when Aura of Conquest is doing its thing attack rolls are still going to be your most common rolls, and surviving on a +3 weapon attack stat for most of your career will start to hurt some, especially in the 10 to 16 level range.

But in general the above is how I would do it.


Now, things can change a fair bit if multiclassing is in the mix. Even a single level dip into hexblade lets you use charisma for both weapon attacks and spell DCs, plus gets you the Shield spell which makes Warcaster preferable to Resilient Con AND it lets you pick up Booming Blade. Booming Blade + Warcaster isn't as good as Sentinel, but it's close enough that you might skip sentinel altogether. You'd still probably want to start with a 16 strength so as to comfortably put the multiclass off until after you've picked up aura of conquest at level 7, the asi at level 8, or even third level paladin spells at level 9 (so you don't delay access to Fear). A single level dip for all that is more than worth it and will barely mess up your progression at all.

Alternatively/Additionally, three levels into sorcerer gets you Shield and Booming Blade just as well, accelerates your spell slot advancement, and unlocks the heighten spell metamagic, which is amazing for Conquerors. A three level foray WILL significantly hamper your Conqueror progression, but heighten may very well be worth it. As good as increased aura range is, forcing disadvantage to key enemy saving throws against Fear is arguably even better.

Back to Hexblade, 5 levels gets you two uses of fear on a short rest recharge, which lets you reliably open with your best spell in basically every encounter of the day. a 5 level multiclass means you're basically missing out on the whole back half of Conquest Paladin, but invocations, pact boon (blade obviously fits well, but I'm partial to Chain Conquerors since familiars are fun and 'Gift of the Ever Living Ones' is an amazing invocation for a tank).



Anyway, if you're multiclassing at all, that can change up your ASI situation a lot. For example, consider this build:

Half Elf, Soldier background, Conquest Paladin 1-9, Hexblade Warlock 1, Paladin 10-19. in that order
Post Racial Starting Stats: 16, 10, 14, 8, 12, 16
skills: as above
ASIs:
4: +2 cha
8: +2 cha
13: Warcaster
17: Alert
20: Inspiring Leader

Now we get both alert and inspiring leader, but you could reasonable sub in Shield Master, polearm master, lucky, or whatever else you might want into either of those if you wanted.

And if your weapon attack starts feeling a bit low you can always dip Hexblade early, at the cost of slightly delaying a few things depending on how early you take it. If you move the dip up to level 2, you could even drop strength to 15 and use that to bump dex up to 12, or get rid of the intelligence penalty.



Or you might aim for something like Conqueror 9, Hexblade 1, Divine Sorcerer 10; or Conqueror 9, Hexblade 8, conqueror 3. Or any other similar business.

I'm not suggesting such builds are better than pure conqueror. Conqueror X, Hexblade 1 is better than Conqueror X+1 at most later levels, but not all. Unlike damage-oriented smite spamming paladins, Conquest Tanks never really stop getting relevant spells and class features from the paladin class. Certainly any single classed Conquest Paladin that gets to level 20 will be glad they stayed the course.


But if you want to spend any of your ASIs for anything other than raising your attack stat and reinforcing your concentration saves, then at least a single level in Hexblade, letting you avoid using separate ASIs to raise your weapon attack stat, starts looking pretty tempting.

Spiritchaser
2019-10-02, 03:20 PM
I’m going to add another vote for a single level of hexblade at level 2

This gets you lots of useful toys, simplifies your stat distribution and will probably be a lot conceptually simpler than most paladin warlock MCs. You can choose to add a bit more warlock much much later if you really want to.

You don’t need to do this to be strong, but I really suggest at least considering it.

You can do this with STR 16 which is straightforward, STR 15 (not awesome for first level, but better thereafter) or even do a reasonable Str 13 Dex 14 medium armor build if you really really want to (I wouldn’t, but you could)

At level 2 you’ll pick up cha as your attack stat.

Sparhafoc
2019-10-02, 04:18 PM
Also, the wonderful thing about dnd is that your character is not set in stone, this isn't an MMORPG with no re-dos.

Most DM's allow you to "retrain" every level or so - so if you are not feeling your selected feat, your ASI choice, or your spell selection - most of the time the DM will let you swap something out at the start of the next level.

DM's are about everyone having fun, and if you think you made a mistake they will more often than not allow you to choose something else.


Well, that does take some of the stress off as I had no idea. Like I said, I've got no experience beyond a few computer games based on some D&D rule set, and those tended to be locked for the entire game whenever you clicked a button.

So glad to hear that this is likely the case, thanks!

Sception
2019-10-02, 04:21 PM
Definitely talk to a DM before counting on it. Retraining is a relatively common house rule, but it isn't universal by any stretch.

Sparhafoc
2019-10-02, 04:55 PM
In all honesty, though, I'd probably skip Heavy Armor Master. I'd build 16-10-15-8-10-16. Take +2 Cha at 4th, Res/Con at 8th, and Sentinel or +2 Cha at 12th.

I didn't notice you'd edited this in, but I just so happened to come to exactly this on account of the advice in the thread.




The general rule with Conquest Paladin, if you don't plan to multiclass, is that stats are king. Conquerors effectively have two separate attack stats - typically strength and charisma. You want to start both of those stats at 16+ if you can at all help it, and want to get both to 20 post haste.

This sounds blunt and straightforward; just the kind of way I think about characters - specialization is fun for me. I don't plan to multiclass only because this is the first game, I have no idea what I am doing, and just want to play a particular class so I can gauge the strengths of these classes.



Strength can cap out at 18, but 20 is better. In addition to attack rolls and save DCs, these stats fuel your main non-combat skill checks in athletics (which also has a lot of combat relevance) and various face skills.

I think I will take it to 16 early as per your later recommendation, but leave it there until late... I wasn't aware there were items that granted ability scores as your post goes onto say, and while I understand there's no guarantee of picking up particular items, there's certainly going to be no other classes in my team which would care about a strength item.



Beyond those two primary stats, Conquerors also have a strong secondary stat in Constitution, being that you're a melee tank with a heavy reliance on concentration spells. Ideally, you'd like to start with 16 Constitution. Most Conquerors will end up settling for a 14 con instead, though half elf is one of the races that can manage a 16 con without sacrificing strength or charisma, and the previously recommended array of 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 is worth considering.

Ok, good to know thanks. While I can readily grasp that I want constitution as a tank, I just can't gauge how much is sufficient. I think I'll do 15 after benefits at start, and use the resilience feat for +1.



Beyond your primary and secondary stats, a Conqueror would really prefer not do dump dexterity or wisdom if possible.

I was feeling uncomfortable about that, and wasn't considering going under 10 DEX in any circumstance. I thought perhaps low WIS might be offset by aura of protection, but I've already seen a lot of suggestions about how low WIS can affect you in many ways, so I am glad you're arguing me back to valuing it! :)





Intelligence is your only easy dump stat, but even there many Conqueror players would prefer not to for role playing reasons. A lovable oaf can play up the paladumb cliche and still get along with the party pretty well, but a Conqueror is generally going to come up shy in the 'lovable' part of that equation.

I can't help but be a little twitchy when it comes to getting a strong basic build, but I do want to roleplay too. It was hard for me to justify any loss to WIS, but lower INT is something that fits better with my backstory; not stupid, just obsessively distracted and a little mad.




So yeah, heavy weight on your stats, both starting stats and stat advancement, meaning most non-multiclassing conquerors are unlikely to get to play around with more than a single feat in their progression, and that feat should almost always be invested in shoring up your concentration saves.

Feels bad to not have sentinel, but I'll max CHA and take Res Con, then see what happens, assuming I'm still alive.





For a typical, non-human, non-multiclassing point buy Conqueror starting with 16 strength and charisma and planning to max both of them by level 20, that is all of your ASIs right there, so you can put heavy armor master, shield master, and so on right out of your head.

Quick aside, but do people often play with more feats? It seems a little disappointing not to be able to pick up more of these along the way.




Heavy armor master is legendary for its diminishing returns, and shield master loses a lot of its luster when you realize that, while shoving is really good, just giving up one of your normal attacks out of an attack action is typically a much smaller investment than burning both a bonus action (that could have gone into wrathful smite or spiritual weapon) and a precious, precious ASI. Especially when you can only even use that bonus action shove on a turn after you've already made an attack action that you could have shoved with anyway, you can't even use it to shove on a turn when you use Conquering Presence or Fear.

I had read that shoving is potentially more useful without shield master... I admit I only wanted to take this to convince my DM to allow me to call it a shield bash as that sounds more epic! :smallbiggrin:




Same for every other feat with the exception of Sentinel. Sentinel is the reason I said strength 'can cap out at 18'. Access to sentinel is good enough to accept a -1 to hit and damage on all of your attacks. It's so good, so role defining for melee tanks, that most tank characters should take it at level one, and if you were playing a variant human I'd recommend it as your bonus feat. Conquerors get enough lockdown out of Aura of Conquest that you can afford to let it wait a while, and honestly probably won't have room for it until near the end of your progression, but if you were going to take just one feat apart from resilient or warcaster, sentinel should be it.

Ok, thanks! I am glad my instinct for this feat was well placed.




So progression wise, again assuming single classed half elf conqueror, I'd look at something like
half elf soldier paladin
post-racial bonus starting stats: s16, d10, c15, i8, w10, h16

ASIs:
4: +2 charisma
8: +2 charisma
12: resilient: constitution
16: +2 strength
19: sentinel[/quote]

Exactly what I've decided on, so thanks for the boost in confidence that this is not a stupid plan! :)



If you're lucky enough to have your DM throw one of the fixed strength items at you - gauntlets of ogre power or belt of giant strength, by level 16, then take sentinel at 16 instead, and at level 19 I'd recommend alert or maybe inspiring leader.

I had no idea such things existed, I will have my character paint pictures of his nightmares of rampaging hill giants or some other in game hint to the DM that my character would really appreciate finding such an item! :smallwink:

While I expect an item of constitution will be appreciated by all the classes my team will be playing, none of them are likely to care about strength.



That's how I'd go about it anyway. You might swap the +2 charisma at level 4 with the +2 strength at level 16. Conquest guides can slightly overvalue charisma given that frighten immunity, legendary resistance, and enemies with wisdom saves good enough to shrug off any realistic save DC are all things in this game, and even when Aura of Conquest is doing its thing attack rolls are still going to be your most common rolls, and surviving on a +3 weapon attack stat for most of your career will start to hurt some, especially in the 10 to 16 level range.

But in general the above is how I would do it.

That's really helpful, thanks!

I think I'll go CHA, Res Con, then see if I am struggling with melee to choose either CHA or STR, then with some luck, sentinel.

Thanks for the ideas on multiclassing - and to Spiritchaser - I'll keep those in mind for the future, but I think this time I will just go pure Paladin.