Death Doesn't Matter and Your Soul is Free

[Bjarkmundur]

I saw a post here a few months ago that I now can't find.

The subject was the paradox of Devils. Including them in your campaigns means there are thousand of lesser devils making contracts with mortals all over the place to get their enternal service in he'll when they die. This is pretty great business model, since the return is.... Well... Infinite, so it makes sense that this is happening constantly all over the place.

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

One suggestion was that Devil's would try to kill the character to get to the "eternal servitude" part faster. This makes sense when dealing with commoners, but seeing how Hell is just one big evil corporation, I don't feel like that is a smart investment of man-hours when the target in question is a 12th level Barbarian with three equally 12th level friends. Maybe this is the perfect solution and each month a single devil is sent to kill the player, and each time they send a stronger and stronger devil. Yeah, okay, that could be fun.

So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense? Is there some important resource I have yet to read that solves all of this?

Edit; Please read at least my other comments before replying :)

[Tetrasodium]

I saw a post here a few months ago that I now can't find.

The subject was the paradox of Devils. Including them in your campaigns means there are thousand of lesser devils making contracts with mortals all over the place to get their enternal service in he'll when they die. This is pretty great business model, since the return is.... Well... Infinite, so it makes sense that this is happening constantly all over the place.

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

One suggestion was that Devil's would try to kill the character to get to the "eternal servitude" part faster. This makes sense when dealing with commoners, but seeing how Hell is just one big evil corporation, I don't feel like that is a smart investment of man-hours when the target in question is a 12th level Barbarian with three equally 12th level friends. Maybe this is the perfect solution and each month a single devil is sent to kill the player, and each time they send a stronger and stronger devil. Yeah, okay, that could be fun.

So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense? Is there some important resource I have yet to read that solves all of this?

I run my game in eberron using its cosmology & "demons" (all types of fiends). They have their own struggles & goals that are mostly unrelatedto those of mortals. Not only that, they don't need the souls of mortals like in FR. Demons & Celestials also don't give much of a fig (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-care-give-a-fig) about mortals unless thy can help influence The Prophecy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWYa4i5aLQ). Unfortunately there is not currently a good one stop place to learn many details about either the planes or demons in general; rising from the last war may change that next month(?) & exploring eberron will come december or so.. Here are a couple good blogposts from keith baker that pull a lot of details together though
http://keith-baker.com/tag/lords-of-dust/
http://keith-baker.com/age-of-demons/
and to give an idea of jutst how different the planes are from the "default" ones of planescape that fr uses:
http://keith-baker.com/planes-of-hope-peace-and-order/
http://keith-baker.com/the-endless-night/
http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-planar-qa/


edit:dictionary link

[Lord Raziere]

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

.....No. the changes don't carry over. your new character doesn't get the benefits of the previous pact-maker.

and if you meant that the new character can also sell their soul, well this thing sounds like a very "abuse-able on paper" thing that in practice, a GM can just go "oh they're not interested in your soul...." *evil grin* and stop this right at the beginning by asking for something else. or any other number of ways a devil can screw you over before dying. like locking all that wealth and power behind needing to betray the party or something.

[ErrantNonsense]

If I’m reading your post right, it sounds like the problem is your players feel free to throw their characters away because they can make new ones. This sounds like a player problem entirely seperate from anything to do with devils. Make the players invested in their characters and they won’t want to get them killed for profit. I can’t tell if this is a thought experiment of how players could hypothetically break the game, or a real issue at your table.

That said, some in-game solutions (which will never adequately solve out of game problems):
- making deals with devils is evil: a group of adventurers who’s members consistently do evil things will be shunned by the community
- minor devils can’t make deals for substantial deals, and it takes substantial effort to attract the attention of major devils. As the DM you control how and when devils show up, make them work for it.
- add costs to the contracts other than the character’s soul. Make signing a deal actively detrimental to the players’ goals, even if the character immediately dies (providing the players’ goals are something that devils would oppose)

[JackPhoenix]

First, there aren't "thousands of lesser devils making contracts all over the place". Devils are imprisoned in Hell and have hard time getting out on their own.
Second, if you plan to kill whoever you've you've made the pact with, you make sure you can actually kill them before making the deal. Either that level 12 barbarian won't get to sell his soul, because his soul isn't any more valuable than a random commoner's.... both will end up as the same lemur, after all.... and killing him is too much of a hassle, or the devil won't plan to kill him. He's immortal, he can wait for the nature to take its course.
What the level 12 barbarian can offer, unlike the commoner, is his services. A commoner can't retrieve an artifact the devil wants, stop a demon lord being summoned to material plane, or conquer a kingdom in the name of his infernal master... the barbarian can. His services are more valuable than his soul. Especially as the devils can't project their power on material plane easily.

[Bjarkmundur]

I haven't introduced Devils into my game yet, but It's something I want to get to eventually. I'm just trying to figure out how I want to do it and iron out any misconceptions I might have.

The next question would be, does each devil lord have his own sort of domain which governs what kind of contracts he is most willing to make? I mean, they all just want souls, so they have to have some limitations or distinction between the gifts each devil can make, right?

[Nhorianscum]

I saw a post here a few months ago that I now can't find.

The subject was the paradox of Devils. Including them in your campaigns means there are thousand of lesser devils making contracts with mortals all over the place to get their enternal service in he'll when they die. This is pretty great business model, since the return is.... Well... Infinite, so it makes sense that this is happening constantly all over the place.

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

One suggestion was that Devil's would try to kill the character to get to the "eternal servitude" part faster. This makes sense when dealing with commoners, but seeing how Hell is just one big evil corporation, I don't feel like that is a smart investment of man-hours when the target in question is a 12th level Barbarian with three equally 12th level friends. Maybe this is the perfect solution and each month a single devil is sent to kill the player, and each time they send a stronger and stronger devil. Yeah, okay, that could be fun.

So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense? Is there some important resource I have yet to read that solves all of this?

"An ornate puzzle cube appears in your satchel"

[JackPhoenix]

Oh, I haven't mentioned: check Descent into Avernus. It goes into detail on devilish contracts.

[Bjarkmundur]

-snip-.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought between Asmodeus' wounds, the soul quota and the blood wars, I thought gathering souls was like the main objective of Devils (apart from internal power struggles). How then do the Devil's get their souls if there isn't a reliable way of contacting mortals? Why do Devils want worship, and how do you send the artifact to him?

Yeah, I'm completely new to this hell-stuff ^^

[Cheesegear]

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

That's because, you, the DM, have made the laziest deal possible.

Devils don't want one soul. They want all the souls. If you, the DM, have figured out that your players don't care what happens to their characters after they die, because they just roll a new one, no harm done. You, the DM, have to create consequences for the current characters, while they're alive.

For example, I don't want your soul. I want the soul of the son of the Count. Through Divinations, it has been revealed that that the son of the Count, becomes a powerful Paladin in the future, and it would be really, really cool of you, to knife that baby now, while its helpless. Also, just before you kill a baby, it'd be really cool if you could whisper my name, so I get its soul, cool?

1. You just killed a helpless baby - knowing that it would be a powerful force for Good, in the future - for personal profit. For a Devil. Hard alignment shift, you're Evil, son.
2. You've committed infanticide against the local ruling family. That has real-game, story consequences. Not metaphysical nonsense consequences that don't affect the game.
2b. Did I mention that you committed infanticide for a Devil? You're damned, too.

Selling your soul is easy. Selling other people's souls, is a much more problematic situation:
I need you to set fire to this house, killing the entire family inside; Mum, Dad, two kids, an Uncle, and a dog. Make sure to paint this vial of blood of the door.


So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense?

Don't make lazy deals that don't have consequences.

[JackPhoenix]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought between Asmodeus' wounds, the soul quota and the blood wars, I thought gathering souls was like the main objective of Devils (apart from internal power struggles). How then do the Devil's get their souls if there isn't a reliable way of contacting mortals? Why do Devils want worship, and how do you send the artifact to him?

Yeah, I'm completely new to this hell-stuff ^^

What wounds? Asmodeus is fine.

I suggest Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes for more details on general devil stuff, and aforementioned Descent to Avernus on deals in particular.


WHY DEVILS WANT CULTS
For all their might, most devils are effectively trapped in
the Nine Hells. While other planar creatures use magic to
move between planes, devils require either a portal they
can physically walk through or a summoning conducted by
an entity on a distant plane. They have little will in determining
where they can go.
Because of this restriction, on the Material Plane most
devils work through cults. Cults typically consist of folk
who have used rituals to contact devils and pledge their
souls to them in return for power. The Lords of the Nine
drive most of the soul trade, and the gifts they can offer
are determined by Asmodeus's decrees.

[Tetrasodium]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought between Asmodeus' wounds, the soul quota and the blood wars, I thought gathering souls was like the main objective of Devils (apart from internal power struggles). How then do the Devil's get their souls if there isn't a reliable way of contacting mortals? Why do Devils want worship, and how do you send the artifact to him?

Yeah, I'm completely new to this hell-stuff ^^

That's only a concern for fiends in certain settings & cosmologies. Despite mtof saying that the bloodwar applies to all settings, it most certainly does not apply as written to eberron, ravenloft, darksun, & probably others due to various lore incompatibilities. here are a few other ways you can use it if you even want to use the bloodwar
http://keith-baker.com/shavarath-the-blood-war/

In fact, double checking mtof, everything nearly it says about fiends is hard core in conflict & antithetical to the lore of most if not all of those settings.

Important question: do you want to use the bloodwar and fiends making bargains in your campaign?.... it sounds like you are more uncertain & nonplussed about the idea of using it than eager.

[Brookshw]

Have you considered the dead character coming back as an NPC villain, possibly promoted as a Devil, and using their knowledge of the party against them?

[Throne12]

I saw a post here a few months ago that I now can't find.

The subject was the paradox of Devils. Including them in your campaigns means there are thousand of lesser devils making contracts with mortals all over the place to get their enternal service in he'll when they die. This is pretty great business model, since the return is.... Well... Infinite, so it makes sense that this is happening constantly all over the place.

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

One suggestion was that Devil's would try to kill the character to get to the "eternal servitude" part faster. This makes sense when dealing with commoners, but seeing how Hell is just one big evil corporation, I don't feel like that is a smart investment of man-hours when the target in question is a 12th level Barbarian with three equally 12th level friends. Maybe this is the perfect solution and each month a single devil is sent to kill the player, and each time they send a stronger and stronger devil. Yeah, okay, that could be fun.

So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense? Is there some important resource I have yet to read that solves all of this?

Edit; Please read at least my other comments before replying :)

First how is a player getting rich? This is a deal between a character and a devil not a player and a devil.

Also devil's like to make contracts to Corrupt a soul. That are at war with the Angel's. They are going for the souls that are sitting on the fence. So they wouldn't make a deal with a corrupted soul just to get a soul. They already know your going to hell when you die.

[Throne12]

I haven't introduced Devils into my game yet, but It's something I want to get to eventually. I'm just trying to figure out how I want to do it and iron out any misconceptions I might have.

The next question would be, does each devil lord have his own sort of domain which governs what kind of contracts he is most willing to make? I mean, they all just want souls, so they have to have some limitations or distinction between the gifts each devil can make, right?

Kind of

there are some great youtube videos you should check out it'll help you a lot.

Let's see go check out.
The Dungeoncast
Nerdarchy
WebMD
Arcaneforge
Dungeon Dudes
Jorphdan.



But if you only watch one channel for this make it the Dungeoncast it the best one and most detailed.

[Tvtyrant]

I saw a post here a few months ago that I now can't find.

The subject was the paradox of Devils. Including them in your campaigns means there are thousand of lesser devils making contracts with mortals all over the place to get their enternal service in he'll when they die. This is pretty great business model, since the return is.... Well... Infinite, so it makes sense that this is happening constantly all over the place.

BUT when your players can make a deal, die, and just make a new character without ever having to deal with any of the consequences, your players can now become infinitely rich, smart and influential at no cost whatsoever.

One suggestion was that Devil's would try to kill the character to get to the "eternal servitude" part faster. This makes sense when dealing with commoners, but seeing how Hell is just one big evil corporation, I don't feel like that is a smart investment of man-hours when the target in question is a 12th level Barbarian with three equally 12th level friends. Maybe this is the perfect solution and each month a single devil is sent to kill the player, and each time they send a stronger and stronger devil. Yeah, okay, that could be fun.

So, how do you make the existence of Devils make sense? Is there some important resource I have yet to read that solves all of this?

Edit; Please read at least my other comments before replying :)

How are the players keeping the wealth if their characters are dying? Why aren't the Devils sueing for the property that rightfully belongs to the spirit of their client? "His Revenant would greatly appreciate his goods."

[Mordaedil]

I recommend reading Planescape sources on how Hell operates, possibly digging up some 2nd edition books or 3rd edition books on planes.

If you want some ideas for contracts and deals, I suggest making a conditional contract with maybe 3 stages of where various things the players can get various amounts of service from the devil in terms of power, but with increasing consequence, where the first few are relatively light and the third is roughly eternal damnation in trade for a wish or something.

Sure, they can use the wish to null the contract, but that becomes kind of like never using it to begin with, and secretly damns the character anyway.

[RatElemental]

1. You just killed a helpless baby - knowing that it would be a powerful force for Good, in the future - for personal profit. For a Devil. Hard alignment shift, you're Evil, son.

Just wanted to point out that this strikes me as sig worthy.

As for the subject of the thread itself, it's been said before, but:

A. Why is the player's future character benefiting from the infernal deal made by their previous one?
2. Why are devils trading material goods for a single soul, when they can trade material goods for a service that nets them the soul anyway because they've committed evil actions due to being in league with fiends?
▲. Why do the fiends care at all about one lowly mortal when they can go corrupt a priest who will in turn corrupt his entire flock for free?
█. Why are the devils offering concrete benefits now instead of promises of skipping past the lemure stage of being a devil?

[Sigreid]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought between Asmodeus' wounds, the soul quota and the blood wars, I thought gathering souls was like the main objective of Devils (apart from internal power struggles). How then do the Devil's get their souls if there isn't a reliable way of contacting mortals? Why do Devils want worship, and how do you send the artifact to him?

Yeah, I'm completely new to this hell-stuff ^^

Have you met mortals? Plenty will wind up damned without any help. Lots of them are just horrible.

[KorvinStarmast]

Have you considered the dead character coming back as an NPC villain, possibly promoted as a Devil, and using their knowledge of the party against them? This is a neat technique that I've seen used as far back as the games we played in the original game + Greyhawk, late 1970's. I think your suggestion works particularly well for the PC who has been taken down into the Hells.

There was a player whose PC was a pretty impressive 7th level dwarf fighter (exceptional strength allowed him to get past 6th, per the DM's decision). The player then got tired of playing D&D, and also had changed majors so his course load went way up.

The DM kept the character alive as an NPC, and the player now and again could join us when we played miniatures combats on the one weekend a month that we did the big battles on table top/floor/large area.

He was usually on the enemy side. :smallbiggrin: And near the end of the campaign, when the Army from the South with the evil artifact sword invaded our area, guess who was the evil knight riding on a giant boar? Same guy, same PC turned NPC turned villain. Good stuff.