What if Consumables were self-replenishing?

[Quertus]

This comment got me thinking


casters are expected to get wands, staves, and pearls of power to supplement either their limited spells known or limited spell slots or, in the case of partial casters, both.

What if consumables… weren't?

My tables don't believe in wasting money on consumables. But, apparently, the game rather expects them. So, what if Consumables were easily replenished.

For example, what if potions automatically refilled each day, much like eternal wands. What if wands were rechargeable, for free, like in 2e?

Or, just looking at balance, what if classes got consumables as class features? Like, X/day, pull out "scroll you've been working on" / "potion nobody was using" / "spontaneous buff from the gods" / whatever.

And what if monsters required this versatility - flyers you couldn't attack without flying, incorporeal creatures you couldn't hit without magic weapons, conditions you couldn't undo without the correct counter - oh, wait, that's already true.

So, would 3e be better with "reusables"? Or might it only change things for my consumable-phobic tables?

[Mr Adventurer]

Presumably you'd still use the magic item creation guidelines, in which case a 1/day potion of Fly will cost a very similar amount to a 1/day general magic item of Fly, and I'm not sure you'll end up with a noticeably different experience at your table...

[Celestia]

As someone who has put more than 600 hours into Skyrim and can count the number of potions I've used on one hand, I would love reusable consumables. However, to combat possible exploit, I'd make them only refresh during down time. Like, the wizard is a member of the local academy, and they offer a wand/staff recharging service, allowing the wizard to easily get their stuff back, but not in the middle of an adventure. Doing it like that could help get them to buy and use consumables without having to worry too much about balance issues that might arise if they refreshed often enough to basically be at will abilities.

[Seerow]

Do casters really need easier access to more versatility and power?

[pabelfly]

Reminds me of the shenanigans involving a Truenamer with Rebuild Item using Skull Talismans. Normally you crush a skull talisman to use the spell inside on yourself (holds up to level 9 spells), but Truenamer can rebuild the item, magic intact (as a Quickened action, no less).

[liquidformat]

well besides eternal wands there are also 'eternal scrolls' I believe the name is Etch Schema it comes from Magic of Eberon I think; beyond that forgotten realms has pricing for endless quivers with different enhancement bonuses and there are a number of items like endless spool of rope, bag of caltrops and so on. I think the first step is to compile a list of everything so you can verify pricing for reusable resources. After that the bigger issue is how to keep things relevant, having an endless supply of a poison is great until most enemies can make the dc for example. So I would suggest pulling down Augmented alchemy from epic levels and make it into standard function of the skill to come into play in the teens and do something similar with poisons.

I think there is already enough there to use WBL to achieve this rather than trying to rebuild classes to have these functions. Though having more items that are focused around mundanes and action economy is a good idea. Like expanding weapon capsule idea to have drugs that can be activated as swift actions and are reusable.

[Drackstin]

How about an everflowing IV of cure wounds?

[JeenLeen]

That would make potions and scrolls way more desirable to me. (Wands, with 75 charges (right?), are high enough charge # to kinda not be consumable and thus not bug me, but I get the feeling.) Gold is so tightly linked to power in 3.5 due to the importance of magic items, it makes consumables seem like a long-term shooting yourself in the foot.

To limit abuse, I could see two things
1) as you stated, have it be a meta-asset of the party/character where X times per <time/narrative-unit> they have the item they need.
2) potions, scrolls, etc. are as normal, but you can only attune <X>, and re-attuning takes time (a day?). You can use each attuned item 1/time/narrative-unit.

For example of #2, it could be a normal Potion of Healing. Your Fighter attunes to it, and can use it 1/day.
The cost schemes of Everlasting Wands seem a good way to boost the cost in order to make it equatable. I could see still allowing normal wands, though, for those that want to use a lot of charges in a day. (Unless you want to negate things like reusing Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor to manage in-between-combat healing. But maybe you do want to negate that by only allowing X uses per day.)

[Telonius]

A 5th-level Artificer can come close to doing this already. Feed his crafting homunculus a bunch of scrolls and potions, and he can spit out an Eternal Wand.

[Asmotherion]

As someone who has put more than 600 hours into Skyrim and can count the number of potions I've used on one hand, I would love reusable consumables. However, to combat possible exploit, I'd make them only refresh during down time. Like, the wizard is a member of the local academy, and they offer a wand/staff recharging service, allowing the wizard to easily get their stuff back, but not in the middle of an adventure. Doing it like that could help get them to buy and use consumables without having to worry too much about balance issues that might arise if they refreshed often enough to basically be at will abilities.

Since Skyrim was mentioned; The way it functions (mechanically) would be great; Have a generic item that absorbes life from fallen enemies and tansfers 1 charge to a charged item per HD of the fallen enemy.

Potions and scrolls; Eh either removing a significant amound of time for creation (1 hour per spell level for example) or Allow creation to create a significant amount (50 for example as for charged items). it would also not hurt to remove XP cost entirelly.

Lower prices for single use items would also encourage them to be used more often. 10gp per spell level sounds as a fair price.

However in a setting with magic readily available at low prices be aware that you're expected to reflect that aspect on society.

[Biggus]

I prefer the PF version of staffs, where they have 10 charges and can be recharged by casting a spell into them, to the 3.5 one. In PF you can only recharge them at the rate of 1 charge per day, but I don't see any necessity to stick with that rule. The same could work for wands.

You could make scrolls work similarly, although presumably a rechargable scroll would cost considerably more than a standard one. It's a bit harder to see how it'd work with potions: the best I can think of is that you buy a potion vial which you fill with water and cast a spell into, and it transforms the water into the potion type.

[zlefin]

It's a fine option worth exploring. Of course if they're reusable, they become rather like spell slots. Let us know any results you get if you find a group to test any of these proposals with.

In my experience, the problem with consumables is generally three-fold though, and this only address one part:
while part of it is the permanent loss of gold in general,

a good portion of it is that many consumables are simply quite expensive in the first place; and the cost is so high that it's usually better to just work around it some other way rather than use consumables at all. Especially since once you get past the level 1 consumables, they start costing quite a bit.

the third issue is that most consumables take a standard action to use; so getting ones that are good enough to be used in actual tense/dangerous situations is difficult.

having consumables be in general considerably cheaper might serve the same purpose of making them more used.


iirc the pathfinder alchemist class can be specced to function as a daily potion maker.

I also made a small alternate craft point system in my sig which would encourage consumable use by letting you get some of them free at every levelup, if you have the appropriate crafting feat. haven't gotten to test it yet though.

[Deadline]

What if consumables… weren't?

My tables don't believe in wasting money on consumables. But, apparently, the game rather expects them. So, what if Consumables were easily replenished.

5E has kind done this with Wands. A wand of magic missile might have, say, 7 charges total. And it recharges 1d6+1 charges each day. I don't really see a reason why you couldn't do something similar with 3.5e consumables. Just use the pricing rules for items that have x/charges per day.

[EisenKreutzer]

So, how would you price a potion that refills each day?
Let’s say it’s a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, to keep it simple. Whats the closest equivalent item? A wand?

[Blackhawk748]

Do casters really need easier access to more versatility and power?

Yes this benefits casters, but I think this also really helps other classes out more. Rogue's have a stash of Invisibility potions, Fighters have some Haste and Fly, Monk's have half the spell list. Good stuff.

[RedMage125]

As someone who loves to play wizards, I guess I don't understand the aversion to consumables.

My wizard makes scrolls of utility spells that have niche utility that he probably won't need everyday. Also of spells that are only going to be needed in a serious pinch, maybe because they're [Evil] (like Avasculate).

He buys (or makes) wands of combat spells (especially ones that have a capped-out caster level benefit), as he won't necessarily need THOSE prepared every day. Example: Wand of Magic Missile (9th), Wand of Fireball (10th), and so on.

This allows him to use his prepared spell slots for more versatile utility spells that his high caster level will benefit (Fly, Haste), or versatile battlefield control spells (Wall spells, etc), and a handful of high-damage spells that can benefit from things like Spell Enhancer and such when cast on the fly (Disintegrate, for example, was a favorite of my last incantatrix character, who would use Instant Metamagic to Twin the spell after casting Spell Enhancer).

But consumables are awesome. Yeah, they're eventually gone, but the versatility gained by not spending daily spell slots on those kinds of spells greatly exceeds the downside of 9eventually) needing to replace the item.

I've also only once ever been in position to use a Staff. Namely because they're not worth taking the Craft feat for, and wands are so much cheaper. Staves, however, have the added benefit of using the caster's Caster level when spending a charge and casting a spell from them.

[Quentinas]

Well the shadowcaster in my game who had Use of Magic Device would be happy, but even my rogue, so that would good but they should cost more than the normal, already now using Schemas my shadowcaster is doing so much , and if the wand could be replenished well probably it could arrive at doing fights without using a mystery between items and the shadow elemental per of the Master of Shadows ... So maybe is not so goood

[Calthropstu]

Running the numbers, using consumables is a complete waste of gold. Selling them is far more advantageous.

Take a potion of healing, for example. Assuming a cleric (or similar) is in the party, you are spending considerable gold just to receive something a few nights of rest or a single rest for the cleric.
Now take a wand of fireball. A wand of fireball is 11,500 gold. A staff of fire is 17,500 gold. Easy to see which is the better investment.

Wands and potions are best sold off for half price than used (Though you should have a couple healing potions in case of dire emergency such as the cleric going down.)
Staves > scrolls > wands > potions. Staves are rechargeable and never lose their value. Wands lose value for every use. Potions and scrolls are instantly gone.

Go for the staff. Screw the wands and potions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's worth noting that standard treasusre rewards exceed the values necessary to keep up with WBL. It was expected when the game was designed that a certain portion of the cash PCs pick up would be spent on consumables and on incidental expenses like the odd ressurection and the loss of value from selling unwanted or obsolete magic items.

Don't be a pot-hoarder.

That out of the way, the idea of them recharging slowly at the current prices might be interesting. 1/day is way too fast at the current prices but maybe once per 1d3 or 1d4 days or even as slow as once a week could help to overcome the psychological barrier to their use.

Wands and staves are only technically expendable. It's absurd to realistically expend 50 charges of most spells in a span of less than several levels worth of encounters; far enough down the line that you probably ought to be considering upgrades anyway. Exceptions are made for things like knock if you're in a dungeon crawl or anything similarly obvious.

[RedMage125]

Staves are rechargeable and never lose their value.

Didn't think this was true. Checked the SRD.

It is not.

The Staff of the Magi, a minor artifact, is the only staff that can be recharged. Other staves cannot be recharged.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Didn't think this was true. Checked the SRD.

It is not.

The Staff of the Magi, a minor artifact, is the only staff that can be recharged. Other staves cannot be recharged.

Technically true. A wand of power surge (ECS) will go a long way toward keeping your favorite staff when it gets low on charges.

[Calthropstu]

Didn't think this was true. Checked the SRD.

It is not.

The Staff of the Magi, a minor artifact, is the only staff that can be recharged. Other staves cannot be recharged.

Whoops.

I seem to keep doing that. That was one of the changes from PF. Staves have 10 charges but can be recharged at a rate of 1/day by sacrificing a spell slot. Thought it was in 3.5 too, but it is not. Haven't played 3.5 in a long long time, but play PF 2x per week.

[RedMage125]

Technically true. A wand of power surge (ECS) will go a long way toward keeping your favorite staff when it gets low on charges.
That still doesn't make "recharging" a product of Staves.

Whoops.

I seem to keep doing that. That was one of the changes from PF. Staves have 10 charges but can be recharged at a rate of 1/day by sacrificing a spell slot. Thought it was in 3.5 too, but it is not. Haven't played 3.5 in a long long time, but play PF 2x per week.

No problem. :smallbiggrin: we all make mistakes. When I started playing PF, I got all kinds of 3.5e rules crossed.

[Malphegor]

So kinda like an eternal wand, but reflavoured as the item of choice?

Eternal Potion of cure light wounds- 3 times a day you can drink from this potion, it cures as a potion of cure light wounds. Recharges every dawn.

MIC item creation rules would let someone make this easily. Whether that's taking the MICkey out of game balance is up to DM discretion, haha.

I feel it wouldn't change the game much, maybe make them less needing to constantly stock up at shops and focus their funds to investing in the world and doing municipal works or whatever. I feel there's not much roleplaying being done whenever I restock on potions, so it's not a high priority. Scarcity is handy for some kinds of adventures though.

Depends on the campaign, and you need a talk with the players about taking that away when the adventure style changes.

[Quentinas]

Running the numbers, using consumables is a complete waste of gold. Selling them is far more advantageous.

Take a potion of healing, for example. Assuming a cleric (or similar) is in the party, you are spending considerable gold just to receive something a few nights of rest or a single rest for the cleric.
Now take a wand of fireball. A wand of fireball is 11,500 gold. A staff of fire is 17,500 gold. Easy to see which is the better investment.

Wands and potions are best sold off for half price than used (Though you should have a couple healing potions in case of dire emergency such as the cleric going down.)
Staves > scrolls > wands > potions. Staves are rechargeable and never lose their value. Wands lose value for every use. Potions and scrolls are instantly gone.

Go for the staff. Screw the wands and potions.

If you are a caster yes but for example a rogue that want to use a spell is more good a wand than a scroll or a potion for example swift invisibility as spell to do sneak attack . As a wand that will be used for 50 round so it's good for him (and it would be more convenient than 50 scroll of that spell even only to draw them out from the bag

[Calthropstu]

If you are a caster yes but for example a rogue that want to use a spell is more good a wand than a scroll or a potion for example swift invisibility as spell to do sneak attack . As a wand that will be used for 50 round so it's good for him (and it would be more convenient than 50 scroll of that spell even only to draw them out from the bag

Actually, even then you are better off putting it on a ring you can activate a number of times per day.

[Elkad]

A wand of cure light or vigor is effectively a one or two encounter item by mid levels.
250-550hp goes fast.

In general, I think if you aren't ever using consumables, your DM is probably going easy on you.

Sure, it's often better to sell them, but only if you live long enough to get back to town.

[Calthropstu]

A wand of cure light or vigor is effectively a one or two encounter item by mid levels.
250-550hp goes fast.

In general, I think if you aren't ever using consumables, your DM is probably going easy on you.

Sure, it's often better to sell them, but only if you live long enough to get back to town.

Actually, by mid levels having one is pretty smart. Two is overly cautious. Three is too much. It's not so much the healing you are after, but the auto stabilize of friendly forces.
Be that party members downed during battle, the guy you come upon bleeding on the floor, or friendly military forces in pitched warfare.
Of course, a called creature with at will healing such as an akhana aeon from pf will do just as well.

[Aotrs Commander]

A wand of cure light or vigor is effectively a one or two encounter item by mid levels.
250-550hp goes fast.

In general, I think if you aren't ever using consumables, your DM is probably going easy on you.

Sure, it's often better to sell them, but only if you live long enough to get back to town.

I think group mentality is a factor. It has been my experience that consumables are almost never used by the parties I've rolled with, aide from healing potions (which most adventure paths drop in massive quanties), and maybe Wands of Lesser Vigor/CLW for easy out-of-combat healing (and also so the cleric/.archivist doiesn't have to be nothing more than a heal bot!) Pretty much everything else consumable tends to be put away in party funds rarely to be remembered and even more seldom to be used, or goes to the caster's sheets almost never be used.

(My Naruto-Ninja cleric/monk is about the only character I can think of for whom I actually get and keep a stock of consumables.)

Party size also matters - if your average party siz is six/seven, then when somone go down, and they usually aren't down for long, since frequently, several members of the party have various healing stuff they can use AND, moreover, the bigger your party size, the less bad one person going down is. I found it very notably during a brief period that we were down to three players for a few months, how much more vulnerable to a vicious circle when someone went down. Simple maths, really - party of three and one goes down, you've lost two-thirds of your fighting power (the guy that went down, and the one who has to heal them). With six characters, you've only lost a third (and there's a higher chance that the healers will be closer, 'cos there's more likely to be more than one); you've just got a bit more wiggle room. If you have, seven or eight and it's down to merely a quarter.

[Blackhawk748]

A wand of cure light or vigor is effectively a one or two encounter item by mid levels.
250-550hp goes fast.

In general, I think if you aren't ever using consumables, your DM is probably going easy on you.

Sure, it's often better to sell them, but only if you live long enough to get back to town.

By that point you just buy a slotless item of Continuos Lesser Vigor and just never worry about it again

[lightningcat]

Am I the only person who thought of the gourds from Sekiro? As they are basically potions of healing on a cooldown timer. Although a few of them have other effects too

[Kelb_Panthera]

A wand of cure light or vigor is effectively a one or two encounter item by mid levels.
250-550hp goes fast.

In general, I think if you aren't ever using consumables, your DM is probably going easy on you.

Sure, it's often better to sell them, but only if you live long enough to get back to town.

This is only true if your party has minimal concern for defense and preserving their HP. Especially the front-liners should make some effort to preserve their HP, if for no other reason than an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (light wounds :smalltongue:).

That aside, a wand of lesser vigor contains 550 HPs. That's enough to completely refill a level 10 fighter (80ish HP) 6 times and most of a 7th. If we presume that the whole party has similar HP and that the 20% of party resources burned in an encounter -always- includes 20% of everyone's HP then you're still looking at more than 8 encounters before a wand of lesser vigor burns out. The wand of CLW is only about half as good but that's still about 5 encounters under pretty rough circumstances.

Most likely they'll go further than that since, in most groups, the PCs will have fewer overall HPs and only 1 or 2 PCs will be tanking damage regularly. If you're burning through even the CLW wand every encounter, you're either in the heart of meat-grinder country or remarkably careless with your HPs.

[Elkad]

I wouldn't call 80hp average for a 10th level fighter. A partywide average maybe. The tanks probably have 50% more.

But saying an encounter should only take 20% of a party's hp assumes that the party doesn't have healing to use at all. If it does 100% damage but uses 20% of their healing capability for the day (obviously including some combat healing in that case), then it's on target as well.

I'd say something like 50% damage for a single encounter is more like normal, once you get past 3rd level. So 40hp * 6 toons= 240hp. Maybe more once you heal companions/mounts/cohorts. Basically a whole CLW wand.

[Blackhawk748]

I wouldn't call 80hp average for a 10th level fighter. A partywide average maybe. The tanks probably have 50% more.

But saying an encounter should only take 20% of a party's hp assumes that the party doesn't have healing to use at all. If it does 100% damage but uses 20% of their healing capability for the day (obviously including some combat healing in that case), then it's on target as well.

I'd say something like 50% damage for a single encounter is more like normal, once you get past 3rd level. So 40hp * 6 toons= 240hp. Maybe more once you heal companions/mounts/cohorts. Basically a whole CLW wand.

Assuming a 14 Con:

12 Hp at first level and with an Average of 5.5 per level from HD, gets you 7.5 per level, so an Average fighter will have 67.5 HP. Lets round up to 70.

To go from 0 to near full is only 6 taps from a Lesser Vigor wand, so you'll get almost 10 encounters out of it for just the Fighter and thats if they go down that low every fight.

Also, 50% damage per fight? Maybe on just the frontliners, but even then from levels 3-7 or so their AAC is usually pretty good at keeping them from being damaged so it can fluctuate wildly. But lets assume thats true. You have two frontliners who lose 50% of their HP per encounter, they're gonna have around 70 HP at level 10 so you only need to heal 35 on each. That is, once again, only 6 uses of Vigor Wands, which is nothing.

Seriously, those wands are amazingly cost effective.

[Calthropstu]

Given that I can do FULL hp healing for free in pf with 0 resources expenditure just with boots of the earth and a few feats?
I feel this convo is true low op.
Heck, the boots will full heal an entire party (though at low levels there may be a danger of foot fungus spreading to the party.)
Belts of healing in 3.5 are a close parity. 1 or 2 in a party handed around as needed should be fine.
For those saying "but that hardly heals anything" it doesn't need to. At the point your resources are so exhausted you are literally throwing money at the problem, you should be running full tilt to the nearest safe place to replenish yourselves.
Exception: this logic should be ignored in truly urgent missions. Throw money at the problem until it no longer exists then demand compensation for costs incurred.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming a 14 Con:

12 Hp at first level and with an Average of 5.5 per level from HD, gets you 7.5 per level, so an Average fighter will have 67.5 HP. Lets round up to 70.

To go from 0 to near full is only 6 taps from a Lesser Vigor wand, so you'll get almost 10 encounters out of it for just the Fighter and thats if they go down that low every fight.

Also, 50% damage per fight? Maybe on just the frontliners, but even then from levels 3-7 or so their AAC is usually pretty good at keeping them from being damaged so it can fluctuate wildly. But lets assume thats true. You have two frontliners who lose 50% of their HP per encounter, they're gonna have around 70 HP at level 10 so you only need to heal 35 on each. That is, once again, only 6 uses of Vigor Wands, which is nothing.

Seriously, those wands are amazingly cost effective.

You goofed. You did the 9 X7.5 but forgot to add the 12. It's 79.5 on average with con 14.

[Tiktakkat]

"From a certain point of view", consumables are self-replenishing: by using them you can have more encounters, in which you find more, typically better (theoretically anyway) consumables. (That is, you use that potion of cure light wounds you found during your 1st level adventure to do another encounter during your 3rd level adventure, in which you find a potion of cure moderate wounds.) I recall running Red Hand of Doom, where as the campaign progresses, encounters with groups of ordinary hobgoblin soldiers were classed as "daily resupply pickups".

As for trading in consumables for permanent, daily use, items, remember that such is done at the quirky D&D economy rules. A healing that costs 750 gp or "ordinary" gp, gems, art objects, and such, costs 1,500 gp of sold potions of cure light wounds. That means 30 potions of cure light wounds for 3 not-quite cure moderate wounds/day (2d8 rather than 2d8+3) for the rest of your career.
Sadly, that is probably around the best rate of exchange out there. An eternal wand of (bardic) cure light wounds "costs" 32.8 potions of cure light wounds, and gives you actual, real cure light wounds 2/day forever, as long as you have an arcane spellcaster around, while a minor schema of cure light wounds "costs" 16 potions of cure light wounds and gives actual, real cure light wounds 1/day forever as long as you have someone with the spell on their class list around. You can expect similar rates of return on items for other spells.

That should lead into discussions of actual utility of various consumables, for healing and for other effects. While it is certainly nice to have those 1/day, 2/day, and 3/day effects, at higher levels you simply need that many more of them. 1d8+1 is all well and good when you can take 1d8+5 damage per encounter, but when the meatshield is eating 100 damage per fight, you are going to need 8-20 such items for each daily encounter. Bringing in lesser vigor covers that a bit, but now you need 5-15 minutes between encounters, which not every adventure is willing to give you.

As for pricing an "eternal potion":
An minor schema is 16x the cost of an equivalent scroll and has no "type" (divine or arcane).
An eternal wand, that costs 720 gp x spell level x caster level + 100 gp per item, and just require an arcane caster, whether or not the spell is on their spell list. If you consider a wand of 2 charges costs 30 gp x spell level x caster level, that puts the multiplier at 24x plus the material kicker.
Potions already have the no type and no spell list element factored in, so I'd expect a multiplier of 32x or thereabouts, or 1,600 gp for a potion of cure light wounds usable 1/day. Such a potion would have to be used at least 32 different days to be "cost effective", which means campaign pacing will be very important for such items. Of course as noted above, there is already an absurdly superior item for such healing, and likely for several other spell effects, so you would be better off looking for existing items to purchase for such needs and saving that formula for custom items.

Of course there is another item that is an "eternal everything" already available - the pearl of power. (And memento magica for spontaneous casters.) You do have to memorize the spell for the day or use up one of your spells known slots, but you get a free reuse when you do.
Likewise spell-storing items can be of service provided you have sufficient downtime to "reload" them.

[Blackhawk748]

You goofed. You did the 9 X7.5 but forgot to add the 12. It's 79.5 on average with con 14.

Whoops. Ok, so its 80 then, So a difference of one charge. Not huge.

[Calthropstu]

"From a certain point of view", consumables are self-replenishing: by using them you can have more encounters, in which you find more, typically better (theoretically anyway) consumables. (That is, you use that potion of cure light wounds you found during your 1st level adventure to do another encounter during your 3rd level adventure, in which you find a potion of cure moderate wounds.) I recall running Red Hand of Doom, where as the campaign progresses, encounters with groups of ordinary hobgoblin soldiers were classed as "daily resupply pickups".

As for trading in consumables for permanent, daily use, items, remember that such is done at the quirky D&D economy rules. A healing that costs 750 gp or "ordinary" gp, gems, art objects, and such, costs 1,500 gp of sold potions of cure light wounds. That means 30 potions of cure light wounds for 3 not-quite cure moderate wounds/day (2d8 rather than 2d8+3) for the rest of your career.
Sadly, that is probably around the best rate of exchange out there. An eternal wand of (bardic) cure light wounds "costs" 32.8 potions of cure light wounds, and gives you actual, real cure light wounds 2/day forever, as long as you have an arcane spellcaster around, while a minor schema of cure light wounds "costs" 16 potions of cure light wounds and gives actual, real cure light wounds 1/day forever as long as you have someone with the spell on their class list around. You can expect similar rates of return on items for other spells.

That should lead into discussions of actual utility of various consumables, for healing and for other effects. While it is certainly nice to have those 1/day, 2/day, and 3/day effects, at higher levels you simply need that many more of them. 1d8+1 is all well and good when you can take 1d8+5 damage per encounter, but when the meatshield is eating 100 damage per fight, you are going to need 8-20 such items for each daily encounter. Bringing in lesser vigor covers that a bit, but now you need 5-15 minutes between encounters, which not every adventure is willing to give you.

As for pricing an "eternal potion":
An minor schema is 16x the cost of an equivalent scroll and has no "type" (divine or arcane).
An eternal wand, that costs 720 gp x spell level x caster level + 100 gp per item, and just require an arcane caster, whether or not the spell is on their spell list. If you consider a wand of 2 charges costs 30 gp x spell level x caster level, that puts the multiplier at 24x plus the material kicker.
Potions already have the no type and no spell list element factored in, so I'd expect a multiplier of 32x or thereabouts, or 1,600 gp for a potion of cure light wounds usable 1/day. Such a potion would have to be used at least 32 different days to be "cost effective", which means campaign pacing will be very important for such items. Of course as noted above, there is already an absurdly superior item for such healing, and likely for several other spell effects, so you would be better off looking for existing items to purchase for such needs and saving that formula for custom items.

Of course there is another item that is an "eternal everything" already available - the pearl of power. (And memento magica for spontaneous casters.) You do have to memorize the spell for the day or use up one of your spells known slots, but you get a free reuse when you do.
Likewise spell-storing items can be of service provided you have sufficient downtime to "reload" them.

Healing belt (MIC) 30 pots cure light (selling half price) for 4-6 cure lights per day (minus the bonus per die) seems the best. You get enough use out of it in 5 combats to make that back. And it gives the added bonus of overcharge for 4d8 healing in a pinch. Easy trade.

[Mr Adventurer]

I wouldn't call 80hp average for a 10th level fighter. A partywide average maybe. The tanks probably have 50% more.

120hp at level 10...? What are you playing at your tables? As well as Blackhawk's numbers showing something more realistic, your comment got me wondering so I ran it: 10 levels of a D12 HD class with an 18 Con is still only 110.

[Calthropstu]

120hp at level 10...? What are you playing at your tables? As well as Blackhawk's numbers showing something more realistic, your comment got me wondering so I ran it: 10 levels of a D12 HD class with an 18 Con is still only 110.

You are forgetting the +6 con item and false life spell etc plus the rage bonuses. You can get a 10th barbarian to about 200 if you push it.

[Blackhawk748]

You are forgetting the +6 con item and false life spell etc plus the rage bonuses. You can get a 10th barbarian to about 200 if you push it.

Yes, but that +6 item is a good chunk of your WBL and you're optimizing for it at that point. 80-90 is more reasonable

[Calthropstu]

Yes, but that +6 item is a good chunk of your WBL and you're optimizing for it at that point. 80-90 is more reasonable

Rage bonuses are built in. And, while +6 is a fair chunk, bear endurance is a cheap spell that's +4. So there's that. And false life is also an added bonus separate wbl. With little effort you can pump hp by 40 at that lvl.

Keep in mind that, as well, that average rolls are just that... AVERAGE. There will be outliers (so a barb with 110 hp just from dice can be seen) who blow these numbers away.

This is often the case in my games since I allow my players to roll and then pick whether I reroll for them or they take the average if they dislike the result.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Do casters really need easier access to more versatility and power?

Martials sure do. Easier access to magic benefits classes that normally lack it far more than classes that already have access to most of those spells.

[Elkad]

Maybe my players are just scared.

A tank is probably going to put a 16 in Con, play a Dwarf, and/or have a +4 item by 10th level.

Even as a Fighter, he's going to have 110-120hp. A Warblade will have 10 more, and a Barb has Rage on top of that.

I also allow the PF HP retraining rules, and the fighters don't have anything else better to do while the casters are crafting, so they take full advantage of it. That's another 45hp at 10th.

[Mr Adventurer]

You are forgetting the +6 con item and false life spell etc plus the rage bonuses. You can get a 10th barbarian to about 200 if you push it.

:smallconfused:

I'm not forgetting anything. A +6 item for a secondary stat is bonkers dreamland for an average character.

False Life is a personal spell, so not available to this hypothetical average character.

You are assuming a barbarian, a specific example, not the "average" that is under discussion. Frankly I don't really know what you're talking about.


Rage bonuses are built in.

On the contrary, they are irrelevant to the average character.


And, while +6 is a fair chunk,

If using standard rules, it is actually out of reach of a 10th level character due to the maximum spend on one item. It should not be awarded as treasure or he available at this level.

And again, this is for a secondary ability score. The idea that a tank would leave themselves only (49000-36000 =) 13000gp for all of their regular adventuring gear is bonkers.


bear endurance is a cheap spell that's +4. So there's that.

Bear's Endurance is a function of a character other than the tank, and subject to other specific limitations, so can't be assumed, especially for the hypothetical average tank character under discussion.


And false life is also an added bonus separate wbl.

Again, it isn't applicable.


With little effort you can pump hp by 40 at that lvl.

Keep in mind that, as well, that average rolls are just that... AVERAGE. There will be outliers (so a barb with 110 hp just from dice can be seen) who blow these numbers away.

Irrelevant to the average character under discussion.


This is often the case in my games since I allow my players to roll and then pick whether I reroll for them or they take the average if they dislike the result.


Maybe my players are just scared.

A tank is probably going to put a 16 in Con, play a Dwarf, and/or have a +4 item by 10th level.

Even as a Fighter, he's going to have 110-120hp. A Warblade will have 10 more, and a Barb has Rage on top of that.

I also allow the PF HP retraining rules, and the fighters don't have anything else better to do while the casters are crafting, so they take full advantage of it. That's another 45hp at 10th.

All irrelevant to the hypothetical average character.

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe my players are just scared.

A tank is probably going to put a 16 in Con, play a Dwarf, and/or have a +4 item by 10th level.

Even as a Fighter, he's going to have 110-120hp. A Warblade will have 10 more, and a Barb has Rage on top of that.

I also allow the PF HP retraining rules, and the fighters don't have anything else better to do while the casters are crafting, so they take full advantage of it. That's another 45hp at 10th.

What sort of Point Buy are you playing with that they can afford to have an 18 in Con? Cuz, dear lord that is crazy.

The majority of frontliners I have played have a 14 Con, with a 16 at best. The only exemption is if I'm playing Incarnum, and thats the only time I've ever actually went to go make sure I had a 20 Con. Otherwise its 14 with a +2 Item at some point and probably never boosting it again.

This also seems to be far more typical in other games I've been in.

[Elkad]

What sort of Point Buy are you playing with that they can afford to have an 18 in Con? Cuz, dear lord that is crazy.

The majority of frontliners I have played have a 14 Con, with a 16 at best. The only exemption is if I'm playing Incarnum, and thats the only time I've ever actually went to go make sure I had a 20 Con. Otherwise its 14 with a +2 Item at some point and probably never boosting it again.

This also seems to be far more typical in other games I've been in.

I said 16, not 18. You even quoted it that way.
32pb definitely allows it. 18/12/16/8/10/8 - or other variants
I trend to high point buys, because it encourages the party to not all play SAD Tier 1 types. And I'm of the opinion that Conan doesn't have to be an uncharismatic idiot, and a wizard might want to carry his own bedroll.

Game prior to my current, one of the tanks (Warblade) put 18+2 in con and only a 14 str.
This game I made them roll.

[Blackhawk748]

I said 16, not 18. You even quoted it that way.
32pb definitely allows it. 18/12/16/8/10/8 - or other variants
I trend to high point buys, because it encourages the party to not all play SAD Tier 1 types. And I'm of the opinion that Conan doesn't have to be an uncharismatic idiot, and a wizard might want to carry his own bedroll.

Game prior to my current, one of the tanks (Warblade) put 18+2 in con and only a 14 str.
This game I made them roll.

I know, I was counting the racial bonus. And 32 PB for Martials typically looks more like 18/16/12/8/10/8 as Dex is far more useful than Con.

Your Warblade is weird.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I came in at ~80 at level 10 as a convservative estimate just to make the point about such a wand being far more than a 1 encounter item. At the absolute extreme it -could- be used up in one encounter but it's very unlikely.

Let's go barb 4/ totemist 2/ totem rager 7 for a 13th level character. That should represent an extreme of HP for "mid-level."

Intent is to finish out on totemist so we hit a max of 7 soulmelds shaped. Gonna want a native 18 before gear by level 16 so it's at least 17 by our snapshot, here.

So that's 15 at level 1, 9.5 for the other 3 barb levels, 7.5 for the two totemist levels, and 8.5 for the totem rager levels

15 +(3 X9.5) +(2 X7.5) +(7 X8.5) = 118.

If we then shape the totem avatar for another 7 and put in a con +2 vest we get to 138 without optimizing specifically for HP.

Even another 13 from already being at base con 18 (151 total) wouldn't be at all unreasonable.

In the case of the extreme 151 hp you're still looking at the capacity to go from 0 to full 3.64 times with a wand of lessor vigor. Even taking the meat-grinder angle of having to restore 50% of that every fight, that's still 7 encounters and there's no way any other reasonable character would have that many HPs except an incarnate that favors the vitality belt (quick, rough math says 178 for him) and he has the capacity to heal himself and mitigate damage better than most characters that lack the ability to cast cure spells.

So, I suppose, if you go to extremes then a wand of CLW could be a one encounter item but I'd hardly call two frontline meldshapers that get trashed in battle typical. Even then it's at the end of what you'd call "mid-level."


__________________________________________________ ___


And just for shiggles; dragonborn mongrelfolk incarnate 13 favoring the vitality belt.

Con 24 to start, 26 from level ups and a con +6 vest makes 32 con

17 at level one and 14.5 for the other 12 makes 191 for baseline,

6 points essentia to the belt (expanded soulmeld capacity feat, improved soulmeld capacity feature, and incarnum focus belt on top of 3 for level) brings us up to 269

imp toughness nets 282hp for a deliberate over-optimization on HP.

[Elkad]

I know, I was counting the racial bonus. And 32 PB for Martials typically looks more like 18/16/12/8/10/8 as Dex is far more useful than Con.

Your Warblade is weird.

And I encourage that. The game is better when characters aren't cookie cutter builds.

He also used a shield. And didn't take power attack at all. His damage output came from maneuvers. Once he got to the concentration maneuvers, that Con contributed directly to his damage. Meanwhile he had a giant pile of hit points.

[Troacctid]

Just so y'all know—this is actually how it worked in the organized play campaigns. Consumables cost 5x as much to compensate. Here's a relevant excerpt.


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/630508616272707584/unknown.png

[Blackhawk748]

And I encourage that. The game is better when characters aren't cookie cutter builds.

He also used a shield. And didn't take power attack at all. His damage output came from maneuvers. Once he got to the concentration maneuvers, that Con contributed directly to his damage. Meanwhile he had a giant pile of hit points.

No Power Atack on Warblade's isn't weird at all, same with using a shield. Putting your higher stat in Con over Strength is, simply because Str is gonna be used virtually all the time whereas you need those specific maneuvers (which are good) to take advantage of that Con.

And those cookie-cutter builds (which there is an intense amount of variety of from Martials if your group is only mid op) are laid out that way for a reason because pumping your HP at the cost of damage or straight up not being hit is a sucker's game. The damage will far outstrip your ability to heal it or face tank it in short order so you're better off trying to kill it faster.

In any event, none of this is evidence that a wand of lesser vigor is worthless. In fact, if you're taking tons of HP damage it keeps getting better because you need to be able to use the thing as often as the wand allows, whereas a 3/day item will simply be outstripped unless its of Heal, which is very, very expensive.

[Elkad]

Sure. And my parties tend to have CLW wands as well as the LV ones. More expensive, but also heals you 5x as fast. When minute/lvl buffs are running, or when one of the bad guys got away to summon reinforcements, that matters.
Hit the tank with the LV wand, then a few times with the CLW wand while LV ticks.

[Psyren]

Your players can already do this if they want to - instead of buying consumables like wands, scrolls, and potions, they can buy 1/day items, pearls, rods, rechargeable staves etc. These are of course more expensive, but the martial classes can pool their wealth with the casters for this purpose.

If instead you're trying to convert consumable items to being reusable, that will boost their price accordingly, so it likely works out the same in the end.

[StSword]

So, would 3e be better with "reusables"? Or might it only change things for my consumable-phobic tables?

You're table might want to use the Complete Gear alternate influence points rules, which you can find here (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/complete-gear).

Instead of wealth by level, characters have innate power they can invest in items.

When items get used up, stolen, broken, etc, the influence points come back, which the character can then reinvest with time into new items.

So you're obviously not the only one who would prefer such a system.

[Yogibear41]

As someone who has put more than 600 hours into Skyrim and can count the number of potions I've used on one hand, I would love reusable consumables.


Skyrim:

I have 500 health potions, but I don't need to use one I'm fine. I might need it later.

VS

Modded oblivion where the leveling system is done away with and you can run into level 30 monsters at level 3 and its almost impossible to survive at all until you are high level.
Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug. Yes I killed the dire rat.

[Endarire]

Consumable Items (and why I barely use them) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzx_wtcHAo)

[zlefin]

has anyone calculated the cost of a set of consumables that's equivalent to a casting class's daily uses?

based on a quick look, I suspect that if you use scrolls as a baseline, the relation would be 1/4 or so on average, with it being 1/2 if you used potion cost (not that potions can go that high level).

[Fizban]

What if consumables… weren't?

My tables don't believe in wasting money on consumables. But, apparently, the game rather expects them. So, what if Consumables were easily replenished.

For example, what if potions automatically refilled each day, much like eternal wands. What if wands were rechargeable, for free, like in 2e?

Or, just looking at balance, what if classes got consumables as class features? Like, X/day, pull out "scroll you've been working on" / "potion nobody was using" / "spontaneous buff from the gods" / whatever.

And what if monsters required this versatility - flyers you couldn't attack without flying, incorporeal creatures you couldn't hit without magic weapons, conditions you couldn't undo without the correct counter - oh, wait, that's already true.

So, would 3e be better with "reusables"? Or might it only change things for my consumable-phobic tables?
This brings to mind Tales of Maj'Eyal, a roguelike I might call tailor-made for optimizers- specifically a feature touted in the main description: no consumables. It's got tons of that "Diablo" style randomized loot which you sell 99% of, but instead of having to manage consumables, it has a rune/infusion system (runes being arcane, infusions being natural, with inscription being the general term). Essentially you have a very limited number of slots (starting at three, upgradable to 5 at the cost of your extremely limited category points which unlock skill branches), and those slots take the place of consumables. Runes and infusions can be found or bought just like any other item for similar prices, from apothecaries and arcane shops (I think one said scrolls, another a library, etc), and they are consumed when used- but they give you a permanent ability with a cooldown. You can't level it up, but you can replace it with a different inscription at any time and higher level loot includes higher level inscriptions (they can also have a scaling benefit based on one of your stats, but eventually higher bases will prompt an upgrade).

So how does this go mechanically? Since your "potions" refresh every combat, combat seems to have an expectation that you'll have a full load of level appropriate inscriptions and use them all every fight (there's also a bit of a fatigue system where the cooldowns increase for a while after using them, so even if you have fast cooldowns you'll eventually tap out). This means that until you're fully loaded, and later on if you have trouble finding what you need to upgrade, you can be seriously underpowered. There are some offensive options, but those are unreliable and weaker than your class features as it were, so you pretty much never want anything but healing/shielding and status removal, unless your class is so good at those that you want mobility instead. And that's where the clinch happens: you need at least one heal, if you're a mage then one of your slots goes to mana restoration, and you also need all three types of status removal, and some mobility sure would be nice. Inscriptions are almost all instant actions (free actions, none of dnd's limit on quickened spells, just free), and can do so many things, but you're super limited by the need for healing and status removal. Even if you max your slots (and have a narrower skill set) you just can't get everything from inscriptions, and gear with the same abilities is far more rare.

In-world I find the idea even more interesting. Apparently this is a word where there are literally no such thing as one-time use magic items (ranged weapons use regenerating ammo pouches, again to remove consumable tracking), plenty of spells that just happen and are done but no storage of them in that form. Instead you go down to the apothecary, and they give you a potion which becomes a magic tattoo that's just a part of you forever now, unless you get rid of it. That should have massive repercussions on the worldbuilding (to the point where I'm sure you can easily poke holes in plenty of the lore of the game, but it doesn't take itself too seriously most of the time). The mechanics may not always be reflected, but there's definitely a race which is based on the idea of this inscription magic, and it ties into the mage slayer faction (who are forbidden from using magical runes, and have skills that interact with infusions), and I'm fairly certain at least one of the stories in the lore notes did make a point of mentioning how the troops' inscriptions were keeping them going and it was a matter of food and an inevitable overwhelming push that would do them in.


Okay, so now I've gone off about ToME, how does that relate to DnD? Well the problem is that, as usual, DnD just doesn't work that way naturally. While ToME is no-consumable from the ground up, DnD is not. So you can't get away with a world that maybe doesn't quite match the mechannics in the same way, because the fact that the mechanics don't match is always there. DnD does expect some amount of nova capability, not just on a daily level, but on a macro level. You get gold and consumables and sometimes you just might not be able to do the job without a little extra push, sometimes you just want to cash in those resources to offset a bad run of luck or punch that much above your weight. Nothing but daily items means that flexibility is lost, which is just one more thing the DM will have to be sure to account for- pretty small if they're already accounting for everything else, but one more.

If you really push formula 1/day items, you may find yourself wishing for ToME's limits. Because you while you lose the reluctance to use consumables, you also lose the reluctance to use consumables. A party that has a couple status removal scrolls in case of emergency will still want to avoid using them, because if they do then they have to buy more, and until they do go to buy more they're vulnerable. A party that has a 1/day item of every status removal doesn't care, because they have it 1/day every day forever. Same goes for any other buff or utility effect they might have potioned or wanded. And if you actually remove normal consumables entirely, you lose that safety valve, and can no longer just drop a scroll here or a wand there to make sure the party has what they need without making a permanent change. You can't give them Water Breathing to finish the dungeon without giving it to them forever, can't give them a pile of burst healing as insurance against a day you want to cram one more encounter into for plot reasons, etc.