Controller Wizard with no damage ability

[Eldariel]

Hey,

So I'm kinda progressing my diviner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?597250-4th-level-ASI-for-a-Roguish-Diviner-with-great-stats) and I've come to decide I kinda like the idea of simply being unable to deal damage. So far my spell selection is:
Cantrips:
Minor Illusion
Prestidigitation
Friends
Mold Earth

1st:
Sleep
Shield
Absorb Elements
Mage Armor
Comprehend Languages
Fog Cloud
Find Familiar
Detect Magic

2nd:
Suggestion
Alter Self
Levitate
Misty Step


I'm thinking of going down this line. The one potential exception I'm thinking of is Catapult, which just feels like a fun idea that I might use to send items of all sorts at enemies and one that works great for a roguish sort of Wizard. Anyways, I'm looking for spell suggestions. So far I've got the obvious down:

1.
Grease
Unseen Servant
Alarm
Catapult
Protection from X
(Charm Person/Silent Image/Hideous Laughter)

2.
Invisibility
Mirror Image
See Invisibility
Locate Object
Detect Thoughts
Magic Aura
Pyrotechnics
Darkvision

3.
Animate Dead
Hypnotic Pattern
Major Image
Phantom Steed
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fly
Glyph of Warding
Magic Circle
Sending
Slow
Haste
Sleet Storm


Not planning further than that yet but please point out some other spells I'm overlooking that would be good for the classic "Let everyone else do damage while I'm silently making enemies all worthless"-character.

[Galadhrim]

Level 2 spells:
Hold person
Web
Blindness/deafness

I played a similar character and found grease to be very effective once I was concentrating on a spell. Non concentration debuffs become ever more important.

[Anymage]

You might run into the problem that there are a lot of appealing spells that are all competing for your concentration. A buffer/battlefield controller character might well run into situations where his most effective move is to maintain whatever spell he's currently maintaining, and not being able to take a potshot with a cantrip here will mean many turns sitting on your hands.

Which gets to a more general point. When dreaming up character concepts, a full support with no offensive abilities whatsoever might sound interesting, and be a counterpoint to the combat focus of the game. At the table, the combat focus is very real. Being able to do cool stuff is the whole point of the game. Spending many turns doing nothing during the game's main focus probably won't wind up feeling as cool as you expect it to.

[Emongnome777]

You might run into the problem that there are a lot of appealing spells that are all competing for your concentration. A buffer/battlefield controller character might well run into situations where his most effective move is to maintain whatever spell he's currently maintaining, and not being able to take a potshot with a cantrip here will mean many turns sitting on your hands.

Which gets to a more general point. When dreaming up character concepts, a full support with no offensive abilities whatsoever might sound interesting, and be a counterpoint to the combat focus of the game. At the table, the combat focus is very real. Being able to do cool stuff is the whole point of the game. Spending many turns doing nothing during the game's main focus probably won't wind up feeling as cool as you expect it to.

Quoted for truth, mainly the part about having things to do every round. It’ll be a while before you can lob a leveled spell every round, what do you do the rest of the time? Even firing a crossbow every once in a while will be more fun than dodge action half the time. This assumes you don’t do the 5 minute adventuring day. In that case, you might be fine.

[Bobthewizard]

Minor illusion, grease, and pyrotechnics give you plenty to do while you are concentrating on something else. This character works better in a bigger party and can be the most important character on the team. If you are willing to do a little bit of damage, frostbite and ray of frost are good controller cantrips. The damage isn't great but the riders are nice and it would give you something to do when you don't have to dodge and you don't want to use a leveled spell.

Web is my favorite second level spell. Fear at level 3 is good but I usually take one of either hypnotic pattern or fear, usually hypnotic pattern. As a diviner, either take mass debuffs or single save spells like levitate, suggestion, polymorph or banishment so you can use your low portent die. I avoid single target spells that offer repeat saves since portent isn't as effective.

Here are two good guides on playing a controller

Treantmonk:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GEnaZsPhD0yKbLjEO16_ErxxE1O7xjAdeJJdSMTpz_0/edit

Professor Q:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bEQpudt_2f_ylQBE99ikSw9glPHwqs5F-pqOdvvGFYM/edit#

[Galadhrim]

Minor illusion, grease, and pyrotechnics give you plenty to do while you are concentrating on something else. This character works better in a bigger party and can be the most important character on the team. If you are willing to do a little bit of damage, frostbite and ray of frost are good controller cantrips. The damage isn't great but the riders are nice and it would give you something to do when you don't have to dodge and you don't want to use a leveled spell.

Web is my favorite second level spell. Fear at level 3 is good but I usually take one of either hypnotic pattern or fear, usually hypnotic pattern. As a diviner, either take mass debuffs or single save spells like levitate, suggestion, polymorph or banishment so you can use your low portent die. I avoid single target spells that offer repeat saves since portent isn't as effective.



Agree with this completely. You are going to need something to do with your turn once you are concentrating. Speed reduction from Ray of frost is great from a cantrip. If you are completely committed to no damage as part of the character RP, you might talk to your dm about a different cantrip ability like blind for one round or restrain for a round or similar.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Is Animate Dead just a way to create others who actually do damage?

[JakOfAllTirades]

I played a Wizard like this once, and found it quite gratifying. As in, "the other members of my party told me it would suck and I saved all their butts repeatedly" type of gratifying. It's a solid concept and the Divination school works fine for this. The War Wizard school would also be useful.

[Keravath]

I'd just like to emphasize the comments about not having a damage option.

It is an interesting role playing concept but as you progress in levels there will be many turns when you won't have anything you can do. Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand are great utility cantrips but will do nothing in combat unless you have a very generous DM.

Many of the control spells are concentration, you will go through your spell slots quickly trying to cast a spell every round and they won't last a typical adventuring day unless your DM is the type who goes for one big combat followed by a long rest. Once you are out of spells, you will have nothing you can do.

If you really want to go this route then perhaps talk to your DM about creating a cantrip that only imposes status effects on a hit.

e.g. Distract - ranged spell attack - on a hit the target will have disadvantage on their next attack and their speed is reduced by 10'.

This combines the rider effects of vicious mockery/frostbite with Ray of frost without doing any damage. The problem is that it will never scale with level the way other cantrips do but at least it will give you something you can do on off turns.

One reason my bard multiclassed into warlock was because vicious mockery just didn't feel very useful on all the turns when I wasn't cast a spell. In your case, without some sort of useful combat cantrip, you will likely find yourself dodging a lot which you may or may not enjoy. Depending on who you are playing with, your party may or may not appreciate it either. :)

That said, I've played games with a cleric character into tier 3 (around 13th level) and to the best of knowledge they have never damaged another creature in combat. They stood at the back, healed and supported when they saw the need but basically played a pacifist in the sense that they would not personally harm another creature. It worked for them and they seemed to enjoy playing it but 90% of the time they did nothing in combat except dodge and watch the other players.

[Misterwhisper]

Great concept and could be a ton of fun but I would almost take it as a sorcerer just for subtle spell.

Subtle spell on a controller or an illusionist is amazing.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for all your assistance. To be clear, the character is already in action and has already level-upped once so for better or for worse, I will never have a damage cantrip (unless I multiclass). I've occasionally used a crossbow but mostly I just try to get creative with Minor Illusion and do secondary utility stuff when I'm concentrating. So far I've cast one real spell per encounter tops (many encounters didn't require even that much) but between Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Prestidigitation, and an array of social skills I rarely find myself having a hard time taking a semi-useful action. Often simple defensive readied Minor Illusion is pretty solid but I do use it offensively and to confound the enemy. Of course, if I get studied enemies will likely know what I'm doing will be an illusion but so be it.

The basic idea behind the whole thing is that the character considers magic above such petty uses as physically harming things. After all, weapons and all sorts of mundane objects that stupid stickweavers can use are fully able to do that just as well so why waste the vast potential of magic on such meaningless things when the same magic could be used to alter the fabric of reality. I figure he'll have no problem using mundane items to deal damage (hence the Crossbow) but as that gets outpaced he'll have to get more creative with equipment. Probably some sort of Bag of Holding with a golfbagful of various mundane utility gear. Thus he'll gladly use magic to produce underlings that can do fighting for him (he has Poisoner's Kit and proficiency too, for some goodies to give to the skeleton archers/animated objects/etc.), but by and large he'll use magic to manipulate minds and the environment. Of course, sadly enough concentration does rain on this parade quite a bit; non-concentration BFC is thus of extra value where available.


So, please help me figure out more spells to go for. That's really what I need help with; as said, the character is already in game and already has no offensive spells to cast. Grease & Blindness are some good ones but there must be more I haven't thought of yet.

[Corpus]

Agree with this completely. You are going to need something to do with your turn once you are concentrating. Speed reduction from Ray of frost is great from a cantrip. If you are completely committed to no damage as part of the character RP, you might talk to your dm about a different cantrip ability like blind for one round or restrain for a round or similar.

To his point I did a similar wizard and discussed the concept a head of time with the DM.
I asked if I could use Mage Hand and as an Action, use the Help Action to give other players Advantage in combat (through distraction). My DM allowed it, gave me something to do every round if I wasn't casting other spells.

A good feat option would be Magic Initiate and take Spare the Dying + (Guidance/Mending/Thaumaturgy) and Healing Word for extra utility.

[Emongnome777]

I’m curious. If you mostly use cantrips during combat, what are some good in-combat uses you’ve found for spells like Minor Illusion or Mold Earth? You can only have one illusion at a time, so after making your half cover (or whatever), what then? Honestly just curious, not downing the concept.

I have a 6th level diviner that I try to do similar but have a few damage spells sprinkled in with the control stuff. Thanks.

[Eldariel]

I’m curious. If you mostly use cantrips during combat, what are some good in-combat uses you’ve found for spells like Minor Illusion or Mold Earth? You can only have one illusion at a time, so after making your half cover (or whatever), what then? Honestly just curious, not downing the concept.

I have a 6th level diviner that I try to do similar but have a few damage spells sprinkled in with the control stuff. Thanks.

Minor Illusion is mostly...well, the standard is readied action to create a wall between an enemy and an ally when said enemy begins casting a spell/making an attack (depends on the enemy, of course). The illusion breaks line of sight so you can disrupt a number of actions that way. Of course, Minor Illusion to mimic a summoning effect or to put yourself in an opaque box or such works just fine. The first illusion is simply dispelled when you cast a second one; you don't really need the Wall in place after it's served its purpose for instance so that's hardly a problem. Minor Illusion can also convey information over long distances; you can write words in the air (with some flair like glowing letters) or an illusionary cube or mass of ground or whatever to hide an ally with "this is an illusion" written on the inside (so they know it's an illusion). Hole in the ground can mimic a pit and you can mix that up with like Mold Earth. And of course the auditory side can produce like a dragon's roar from the wilderness or some fake commands (if you know the enemy superior) or things of that nature. It can also be used to add emphasis to other effects someone else has cast previously.

Mold Earth is somewhat more restricted, but if you have loose earth, being able to dig holes, create 5' high obstacles to funnel enemies, etc. has obvious utility and actually goes great with Minor Illusion since you can create similar obstacles with either Mold Earth or Minor Illusion and enemy might have a hard time knowing which it is if they're adapting to your casting. The difficult terrain use has some uses in closed quarters. Mostly I use Mold Earth out of combat though.


To his point I did a similar wizard and discussed the concept a head of time with the DM.
I asked if I could use Mage Hand and as an Action, use the Help Action to give other players Advantage in combat (through distraction). My DM allowed it, gave me something to do every round if I wasn't casting other spells.

A good feat option would be Magic Initiate and take Spare the Dying + (Guidance/Mending/Thaumaturgy) and Healing Word for extra utility.

Yeah, I've been playing around with that idea. I wasted my first (V. Human) feat on Prodigy since I'm playing a skilly type and I'm kinda wanting to pick up Alert pretty soon so Magic Initiate would be pushed annoyingly far. Still, Bless, Guidance and e.g. Spare the Dying or Thaumaturgy would be cool I'll give you. I'm not sure I wanna actually learn Healing Word since I don't want to have the ability to heal though; but Bless would be fine in this party, though it'd be competing for Concentration real soon.

[Corpus]

Magic Initiate would be pushed annoyingly far. Still, Bless, Guidance and e.g. Spare the Dying or Thaumaturgy would be cool I'll give you. I'm not sure I wanna actually learn Healing Word since I don't want to have the ability to heal though; but Bless would be fine in this party, though it'd be competing for Concentration real soon.

In place of Healing Word or Bless, Command and Sanctuary are both non-Concentration though your target gets a save. Create/Destroy Water may be a useful 1/Day utility.

[Eldariel]

In place of Healing Word or Bless, Command and Sanctuary are both non-Concentration though your target gets a save. Create/Destroy Water may be a useful 1/Day utility.

Command and Sanctuary are interesting but they have saving throws and that's a no-go for Magic Initiate. I think Healing Word would ultimately be the way to go since Bless isn't better enough than my other Concentration spells to be worth casting. Guidance is a nice out of combat benefit though. Well, we'll see in another ~8 levels.

[Bobthewizard]

So, please help me figure out more spells to go for. That's really what I need help with; as said, the character is already in game and already has no offensive spells to cast. Grease & Blindness are some good ones but there must be more I haven't thought of yet.

I really like pyrotechnics for a non-concentration spell. You get both AOE blindness and fog cloud in one non concentration spell.

I like your idea of catapult. It would take some creativity to use effectively, but creativity is what you are going for with this build.

There aren't any good level 3 or 4 non-concentration control spells on the wizard list. At level 3, consider thunder step, though. It does a little damage but it's a teleport and you can take an object with you. Unlike some other spells, it doesn't limit you to an object that is not being worn or carried, so you can use it to steal an enemies weapon.

I would avoid magic initiate. It's not a bad choice but you have so many better options - alert, lucky, war caster, resilient constitution - not to mention getting your INT to 20 ASAP.

[Eldariel]

Ah, indeed, Pyrotechnics is awesome! I might have to consider getting a damage spell just to provide an easy access to the fire though. Create Bonfire would be nice but getting an extra cantrip would be rough. Is there any non-concentration source of lingering fire or should I just stick to non-magical fire sources like Catapulted Alchemist's Fires, Bullseye Lanterns (held and moved by my Unseen Servant), etc.? In fact, that seems like the best way to go. Thus I've got my Concentration for a real spell and can then pop off some smoke when that's done.

Thanks a lot for reminding me of the awesome of the spell.

[Bobthewizard]

That is a great use of catapult and pyrotechnics. It takes two rounds but it would still be fun. If you could somehow scatter the fire it would be better. Then you'd have fire for multiple rounds of pyrotechnics. Also, ask about torches and lanterns when you enter rooms. How is the room lit? How does the enemy see?

[Eldariel]

That is a great use of catapult and pyrotechnics. It takes two rounds but it would still be fun. If you could somehow scatter the fire it would be better. Then you'd have fire for multiple rounds of pyrotechnics. Also, ask about torches and lanterns when you enter rooms. How is the room lit? How does the enemy see?

Indeed. I'll have my skeleton archers too, no reason I couldn't give them fire arrows that could light flammable stuff up. Certainly fire should be easy enough to come by. There's even another Wizard in the party and he's more of a blaster so I might have Flaming Sphere or something to use too.

[Bobthewizard]

There's even another Wizard in the party and he's more of a blaster so I might have Flaming Sphere or something to use too.

Flaming sphere is magical fire itself so it doesn't work directly, but flaming sphere, fireball and firebolt all say they ignite flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried, so use that to your advantage with pyrotechnics if you can.

[Sherlockpwns]

Just wanted to share my experience with a character I ran on this concept.

First, from the rp perspective it was awesome. My character was lawful evil, believed that killing was wrong but giving others the choice to do so (say by casting hold person) was fine. Damning their very soul, basically the most evil character I have played masquerading as the most holy.

From the group perspective... It was terrible. It was a new group and they were so combat focused that it actually created conflict in the group to run the character. In the end I left the group as a result. We just didn't want to play the same style of game.

I am not saying don't do it, but you should really feel out your group. Have a very rigid rule structure you can explain to them and see if they want to play along, and make it clear that they can say not to do it. The problem with my group was I didn't get that 100% buy in, so when a player is about to die and I can not save them without violating my oath... Well, they simply couldn't understand it.

Anyway that is my 2 cents! Have fun with it! I STILL want to bring my most evil character back. It was delightful to serve up some poor enemy and egg the nearest PC on to land the killing blow.

[Galadhrim]

So, please help me figure out more spells to go for. That's really what I need help with; as said, the character is already in game and already has no offensive spells to cast. Grease & Blindness are some good ones but there must be more I haven't thought of yet.

Some other things you can do once you have decided on your concentration option.
Level 1
Find familiar to give the help action to allies
Long strider is non concentration and can make a big difference on the right scenario.
Sleep, while it does lose steam as you level, is non damage, non concentration and can remove enemies from the fight.
Snare could also be useful for a know it all, deodorant if you do get useful information from your dm from your divination.

Level 3
Counter spell and dispel magic are encounter changing spells that do not require concentration.
Summon lesser demon is also a non concentration spell but you have to be careful how you use it.