Eldritch Blast vs Ranger with Bow

[Bigmouth]

The setup. A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly. I counter that Eldritch Blast is damned nice and out damages rangers with bows (who he says are OP). He states there is no warlock equivalent of Sharpshooter, which means warlocks can't compete. Billions of posts online where people have done the math he says. I didn't search for these billions of posts. I just did the math myself. Pretty easy to show that EB out damages even a Gloom Stalker w/ Sharpshooter once you hit 11th level. However, I know my friend the warlock player rather well, so he'll instantly bring up magic items. A bow with flametongue for instance. As I've been writing this I've discovered the Rod of the Pact Keeper for the warlock. Am I missing something obvious that would change the comparison? (I'm obviously only comparing EB vs Bow, not Warlock vs Ranger)

[Whit]

It’s easy to tell that Ranger will outshine with bow a warlock with EB

Sharpshooter, archery, fight style colossal slayer spell that adds damage

Exceeds the Warlock EB AG invocation hex stuff

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so. All melee barbarian fighter ranger Paladin and rogue beat spell casters damage

[HappyDaze]

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so.

Unless the warlock has the gloves from Ravnica that let him cast two cantrips every turn.

[Yunru]

What Warlocks are best at, is sniping, and even then they need a bit of Sorcerer.
Spell Sniper, Distant Spell and Eldritch Spear gives you a range of 1200 feet.

[ad_hoc]

Tell them to take advantage of their high level spell slots.

At level 5 they have an average of 6 3rd level spells per day. That's much more raw power than every other caster in the game.

Rangers don't get that.

[Contrast]

A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly.

I honestly wouldn't bother with the argument. EB is nice consistent damage but warlocks real power comes from the combination of invocations, frequent short rests, high level spell slots and consistent damage in conjunction, not just from one of those. Rangers don't get disguise self at will or a perma-invisible scout or etc etc.

If the player isn't enjoying the character, the solution may just be for them to play something else.

[rbstr]

EB is fantastic and puts out damage above basically everything that's not a -5/10-based build.


It’s easy to tell that Ranger will outshine with bow a warlock with EB

Sharpshooter, archery, fight style colossal slayer spell that adds damage

Exceeds the Warlock EB AG invocation hex stuff

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so. All melee barbarian fighter ranger Paladin and rogue beat spell casters damage

It's a lot closer than you're implying. The only way you're massively exceeding the warlock is if you're going gloomstalker and have the extra attack.
At level 11, max stats:
A sharp shooter GS Ranger with longbow & hunter's mark is doing 3x(d8+d6+15). 69 damage round 1 (nice). 46 per-round after.
He's also got -3 to hit but gets to re-roll one miss.

Warlock with Hex and Agonizing 3x(d10+d6+5). 42 per round.
(If it's a hexblade they're could curse in and do 43.5 in the first round, adding hex in the second round for 54 thereafter, not counting extra crits of course.)

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

[Kane0]

D10 Force damage cantrip with better than fighter attack progression, can apply up to 4 invocations for extra damage and control, short rest 1st level spell slots for extra d6 damage per hit and if he wants to bring in magic items show him pearl of power, ring of spell storing and rod of the pact keeper.
And thats before multiclassing and feats. They dont get sharpshooter but have a look at spell sniper, warcaster and even magic initiate.

Sit down son, warlock is NOT shafted in the ranged damage race.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm mostly impressed that he chooses Ranger as his metric rather than Fighter. Everywhere I go I've read that Fighter's are generally considered the superior archer over Ranger. It's all Sharpshooter. On its own EB will outshine most other weapons every day of the week but since Sharpshooter can be easily used with the Archery Fighting Style you just can't keep up with it.

Just the bare minimum of math: Assume lvl 11 VHuman Fighter and lvl 11 VHuman Warlock. Both have Hex (Fighter took it using MI) Fighter and Warlock both have 20 in their primary stat thanks to Fighter's bonus ASI.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) x 3 = 69 average damage (87 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)

It's worth noting that even a Ranger at level 11 would be dealing more damage than the Warlock with Sharpshooter: Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark used.

Ranger (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) + (2d8+1d6+15) = 51.5 average damage (66 max)

The greatest strength of EB is not it's pure damage (which is a strong point regardless) but it's modularity. It's almost always got more going on than just damage, such as pushing or pulling an enemy from a distance as great as 1200 ft up. Not being able to keep up with Sharpshooter doesn't make your option weak, it shows what everyone knows, Sharpshooter is too good.


At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a reason why +3 ammunition wouldn't work together with a +3 weapon. Sure it's wildly inefficient but the option is there.

[Yunru]

I'm mostly impressed that he chooses Ranger as his metric rather than Fighter. Everywhere I go I've read that Fighter's are generally considered the superior archer over Ranger. It's all Sharpshooter. On its own EB will outshine most other weapons every day of the week but since Sharpshooter can be easily used with the Archery Fighting Style you just can't keep up with it.

Just the bare minimum of math: Assume lvl 11 VHuman Fighter and lvl 11 VHuman Warlock. Both have Hex (Fighter took it using MI) Fighter and Warlock both have 20 in their primary stat thanks to Fighter's bonus ASI.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) x 3 = 69 average damage (87 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)

Some dodgy preconceptions their. First, the longbow is also 15% less accurate.

42*X=69*(X-15)
42X=69X-1035
27X=1035
X=38.3333...
They break even at 38.3 reoccurring percent. Above that the longbow wins.

But wait, the Fighter can only use Hex once per day. So let's readjust those numbers to account for Hex being in only 1/6th of the Fighter's fights.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+15) x 3 + (1d6 / 2) = 60.25 average damage (72 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)


42*X=60.25*(X-15)
42X=60.25X-903.75
18.25X=903.75
X=49.73(etc)

They break even at 49.7 percent. Above that the longbow wins.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP

You don't have to say it's dodgy preconception, it was meant to just be a very dumbed down simulation and I didn't claim it was more than that. Thank you for the more in depth information though, I never bothered to learn how to account for hit chance and all those other variables.

[Yunru]

You don't have to say it's dodgy preconception, it was meant to just be a very dumbed down simulation and I didn't claim it was more than that. Thank you for the more in depth information though, I never bothered to learn how to account for hit chance and all those other variables.

Yeah my bad, when I started writing it I was also thinking the Fighter had gotten a free feat while the Warlock hadn't... which now that I think about it, is actually the case.

[stoutstien]

The setup. A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly. I counter that Eldritch Blast is damned nice and out damages rangers with bows (who he says are OP). He states there is no warlock equivalent of Sharpshooter, which means warlocks can't compete. Billions of posts online where people have done the math he says. I didn't search for these billions of posts. I just did the math myself. Pretty easy to show that EB out damages even a Gloom Stalker w/ Sharpshooter once you hit 11th level. However, I know my friend the warlock player rather well, so he'll instantly bring up magic items. A bow with flametongue for instance. As I've been writing this I've discovered the Rod of the Pact Keeper for the warlock. Am I missing something obvious that would change the comparison? (I'm obviously only comparing EB vs Bow, not Warlock vs Ranger)

Why is the player character a warlock if they don't like warlock?

[Chronos]

A couple of other points to remember: There's no guarantee of magic items, and without a magic bow, an archer is pretty screwed against any of the numerous monsters who resist or are immune to nonmagical weapons. But there are all of three monsters in the book that are defended against Eldritch Blast (Helmed Horror, Raksasha, and Archmage).

And repelling (or attracting) is really good. As in, there are cantrips that do nothing but that, and aren't even as good at it. If, for instance, you can push an enemy into your cleric's Spirit Guardians, that's an extra 3d8 or more. Bonus points if there's a cliff, lava, or other natural hazards around.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I prefer to have the best of both options: Warlock with a bow! (via Improved Pact Weapon)

The Warlock with a bow can attack with their CHA, add CHA to damage, add Prof bonus to damage (Hexblade's curse), add CHA again (Lifedrinker), add 1d6 for Hex, take the Sharpshooter feat, then throw in an Eldritch Smite for +6d6 force damage plus auto-prone.

At which point your melee pals have advantage on the target and ROFLSTOMP all over what's left of it.

[Bardon]

Additionally, if for some reason something happens to the Ranger's bow, he's screwed. Weapons get damaged, spells can adversely affect them, the King's bodyguards confiscate all weapons before you can have an audience ... there are a plethora of reasons why something might make the bow unavailable, but the Warlock will always have his spells!

[MirrorDarkly]

On my warlock I lay down sickening radiance and push enemies into it with EB.

They have to save on my turn when they get pushed in then again on the start of their turn. The damage from EB is almost trivial.

Also since I can control how far I push them (up to 10 feet per hit) I leave them right on the edge of it so the melee typed can still attack them.

[Bigmouth]

Heh, got a lot of replies while I was spending time with the wife. So what I was going to reply with is a bit dated. But I'll toss it up here anyway.

A) 20th lvl Warlock: EB, Agonizing Blast and Hex: 1d10+1d6+5 (14) with 4 attacks +12 to hit.
B) 20th lvl Hunter: Longbow, Hunters Mark 1d8+1d6+5 (13) (+1d8 Once/turn) +14 to hit.
C) 20th lvl Hunter with Sharpshooter: 1d8+1d6+15 (23)(+1d8 Once/turn) with +9 to hit.
Using a target to give sharp its best numbers: 11AC. Miss on 1. Hit on 2-19. Crit on 20. Take the numbers and get the average over all 20 results.
A: 13.75 B: 12.75 C:17.65

A: Warlock takes their 13.75 and does it 4 times. 55 points of damage per round on average.
B: Hunter does their damage twice. 12.75*2 and adds 4.5 for their colossus slayer. (See Note 1) 29.73 dmg per round
C: Hunter with Sharp does their damage twice 22.25*2 and adds 4.5 for their colossus slayer (See Note 1) 48.73 dmg per round

VS a more realistic 18 AC those numbers become: A:41 B:26.68 C:31.05

Note 1: 4.275 actually thanks to the miss on a 1. If Colossus Slayer damage is doubled on crits (which isn't how I read it) then it would indeed be 4.5, the crit cancelling out the miss.

So...on to the stuff that happened while I was away. :D
Thank you HappyDaze! Those Illusionist's Bracers are insane for Eldritch Blast. Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

ad_hoc: The Warlock's view on warlock's spells is completely ruined by the spell slots. That's all he sees. Myself, I never really sat down to look at the usefulness of upping one spell every level. Thank you for pointing it out.

Contrast: He's my best friend, and he likes a good argument/discussion from time to time. So yes, silly, but it makes him happy so I'm happy to put up a good fight every so often.

rbstr: My figures for the Gloomstalker with sharp give an average DPR vs 18 AC 45.3 (1st Round). Avg over 3 rounds of 34.03 By 4th it averages out to 32.63.

Kane0: I know it doesn't make sense. I don't really understand his thing with the warlock other than thinking literally all he sees is spell slots and compares it to wizard.

ProsecutorGodot: He chooses ranger because we have a Gloomstalker in the party and he got to see her do some good damage last game session. Fighter obviously is going to be the king.

Stoutstien: I don't know why he chose warlock other than he was into the concept of the chain pact at first, combines with the telepathic aspects provided by GOO

[Amechra]

Additionally, if for some reason something happens to the Ranger's bow, he's screwed. Weapons get damaged, spells can adversely affect them, the King's bodyguards confiscate all weapons before you can have an audience ... there are a plethora of reasons why something might make the bow unavailable, but the Warlock will always have his spells!

I mean, spells can adversely affect the Warlock's ability to cast spells, too - Silence them, and they can't cast Eldritch Blast at all, to give just one example.


Gloom Stalkers are actually a bad subclass to compare to a Warlock if you want to compare continual damage output. You're actually better off comparing it to a Horizon Walker, Hunter, or Monster Slayer, since they can get their +1d8 damage every round. Some scribbled napkin math seems to indicate that, once the Ranger gets spells, it's ahead ranged damage-wise from 2nd level to 10th level (assuming a non-Hexblade Warlock - Hexblade's Curse beats the Ranger's damage boosters up and takes their lunch money).

EDIT: Though being in the same party as a Gloom Stalker would explain the dissatisfaction - Gloom Stalkers have much higher spike damage than a Warlock.

[HappyDaze]

Thank you HappyDaze! Those Illusionist's Bracers are insane for Eldritch Blast. Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.


They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

[Amechra]

They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

Out of curiosity, any specific reasons why you ban Acquisitions Incorporated?

[HappyDaze]

Out of curiosity, any specific reasons why you ban Acquisitions Incorporated?

To be specific, it's just the stuff between the front cover and the back cover (inclusive of the covers themselves) that I dislike. I simply don't care for the mechanics associated with characters' franchise roles (and the special items that come with those roles), franchise downtime, franchise headquarters, or really much of anything in the book. The humor it goes for doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Tanarii]

A) 20th lvl Warlock: EB, Agonizing Blast and Hex: 1d10+1d6+5 (14) with 4 attacks +12 to hit.
B) 20th lvl Hunter: Longbow, Hunters Mark 1d8+1d6+5 (13) (+1d8 Once/turn) +14 to hit.
C) 20th lvl Hunter with Sharpshooter: 1d8+1d6+15 (23)(+1d8 Once/turn) with +9 to hit.
Using a target to give sharp its best numbers: 11AC. Miss on 1. Hit on 2-19. Crit on 20. Take the numbers and get the average over all 20 results.
A: 13.75 B: 12.75 C:17.65How much campaign time do you plan to spend at 17+?

Generally speaking comparisons should be done in the Tier 2 levels, 5-10, since that's where most play happens. With a look at the level 11 boost for Tier 3, if the campaign expects to go that long. And warlocks comparisons generally suffer the most in Tier 2.

Don't get me wrong, I love Warlocks and think they are perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean I think level 20 comparisons are the way to go.


ad_hoc: The Warlock's view on warlock's spells is completely ruined by the spell slots. That's all he sees. Myself, I never really sat down to look at the usefulness of upping one spell every level. Thank you for pointing it out.

Kane0: I know it doesn't make sense. I don't really understand his thing with the warlock other than thinking literally all he sees is spell slots and compares it to wizard.If that's the case, no wonder he doesn't understand the warlock.

How many short rests are you getting per long rest?
How many encounters per short rest?

The expected balance of the warlock, and of any short rest resource, is roughly to multiply it by 3 uses before comparing to a long rest resource.

[stoutstien]

They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

Most of the items in GGtR are bad but the subclasses and races don't seem that bad.
those braces are a no-go for me as well.

[Bigmouth]

How much campaign time do you plan to spend at 17+?

Generally speaking comparisons should be done in the Tier 2 levels, 5-10, since that's where most play happens. With a look at the level 11 boost for Tier 3, if the campaign expects to go that long. And warlocks comparisons generally suffer the most in Tier 2.

Don't get me wrong, I love Warlocks and think they are perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean I think level 20 comparisons are the way to go.

How much time at 17+ do I plan on? None. I really don't like high level D&D. But my friend always loves to discuss the game at that level. (I've tried over the last 30 years to get him to change. So far no luck. ) In the 5-10 levels, the Warlock EB is definitely outdamaged by the Gloomstalker with Sharpshooter. (17.40 vs 24.61 3rnd average (See Note 2))



How many short rests are you getting per long rest?
How many encounters per short rest?

The expected balance of the warlock, and of any short rest resource, is roughly to multiply it by 3 uses before comparing to a long rest resource.

As far as the short rest vs long rest economy, it is totally screwed up in our game, which I am sure contributes to my friend's dissatisfaction. I have discussed it with the group. Gone over options. Currently we are trying out 10 minute short rests. The party just doesn't take them. I've offered to double the warlock's spell slots to match our play style better, but he's declined so far. The campaign is mainly outdoors with a ton of back and forth travel. I've offered hooks into 'dungeons' where I could get more of the short vs long economy going, but they have happily avoided these. (even collapsing tunnel entrances repeatedly to seal off those choices.) I regularly ask how everyone is enjoying things and if there are things I can change up to improve the game. Everyone is happy with the game and no one but me is bothered by the action economy. I have offered to help the warlock simply 're-imagine' the warlock into another class, letting him keep the familiar and the telepathy. So the argument about EB vs Bow isn't really about convincing him that warlocks are great so he is happy with his character choice. It's just a silly disccusion between lifelong friends more than anything.



Note 2: In the 5th level spreadsheet comarison, I'm using 16 Dex ranger and 18 Cha Warlock which assumes our ranger bought Sharpshooter at 4th and the warlock pumped up his Cha.

[Yunru]

With the number of short rests : Remember that 2 per day is the average. It's okay to have less in a day as long as there's times when there's more in a day. More will shine the spotlight on short rest characters, less will shine the spotlight on long rest characters.

Also note that characters don't take rests, rests are just a time of inaction. And if they're travelling by vehicle, that certainly can qualify for a short rest.

[MaxWilson]

I'm surprised Crossbow Expert hasn't made an appearance yet on this thread. Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert Gloomstalker is getting an effective four attacks per round by level 11 (five on the first round of combat), where the pure class warlock is only getting 4.

The most important thing the warlock has going for it is all of the riders on Eldritch Blast, not the damage itself. A Ranger can cast Spike Growth, but a warlock can Agonizing Repelling Blast of Lethargy an enemy across that spike growth for d10+5+4d4(20) HP of damage per hit, without even spending any of his spell slots or his concentration.

The ranger is a better summoner (Conjure Animals) but of course at high levels the warlock gets Forcecage/True Polymorph and the ranger doesn't.


At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Rod of the Pact Keeper doesn't increase damage, only to-hit, spell DCs, and 1 warlock slot per long rest.

[Daithi]

EB is fantastic and puts out damage above basically everything that's not a -5/10-based build.

It's a lot closer than you're implying. The only way you're massively exceeding the warlock is if you're going gloomstalker and have the extra attack.
At level 11, max stats:
A sharp shooter GS Ranger with longbow & hunter's mark is doing 3x(d8+d6+15). 69 damage round 1 (nice). 46 per-round after.
He's also got -3 to hit but gets to re-roll one miss.

Warlock with Hex and Agonizing 3x(d10+d6+5). 42 per round.
(If it's a hexblade they're could curse in and do 43.5 in the first round, adding hex in the second round for 54 thereafter, not counting extra crits of course.)

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Everything said here is spot on. However, you can double the Warlocks damage with just a couple levels (or several) of Sorcerer. The Quickening meta-magic effectively doubles the warlock's damage. So 108 damage at 11th and 160 damage at 17th (I go Hexblade).

Plus you get invocations that can be used to extend your range or allow you to disguise yourself like Arya Stark. The Rod of the Pact Keeper could add another +3 to each bolt. This would be another +18 added to total damage at 11th level, and +24 at 17th. (I just read Max Wilson's post and he is right.) A Ring of Spell Storing is also great for warlocks, because they can load it up on a short rests. Load it up with Shield spells and you have some great AC -- especially if you're a warforged warlock.

Edit: One more thing. The Warlock can cast Darkness and with Devil's Sight see through that darkness. Many players don't like this because your own party members get blinded too. However, if your warlock is functioning as a sniper and casts the darkness on himself then he can fire his Eldritch Blast out of the darkness giving him advantage while the enemy trying to see him can't so they get disadvantage.

I've also role played Eldritch Blast as if I was firing magical arrows like Uryu Ishida, the Quincy from the Bleach anime serious. However, I've also imagined using a Tonfa as my hexblade weapon and firing off EB from the tonfa like it was a gun, and I'm a D&D version of John Wick.

[Keravath]

Everything said here is spot on. However, you can double the Warlocks damage with just a couple levels (or several) of Sorcerer. The Quickening meta-magic effectively doubles the warlock's damage. So 108 damage at 11th and 160 damage at 17th (I go Hexblade).

Plus you get invocations that can be used to extend your range or allow you to disguise yourself like Arya Stark. The Rod of the Pact Keeper could add another +3 to each bolt. This would be another +18 added to total damage at 11th level, and +24 at 17th. (I just read Max Wilson's post and he is right.) A Ring of Spell Storing is also great for warlocks, because they can load it up on a short rests. Load it up with Shield spells and you have some great AC -- especially if you're a warforged warlock.

Edit: One more thing. The Warlock can cast Darkness and with Devil's Sight see through that darkness. Many players don't like this because your own party members get blinded too. However, if your warlock is functioning as a sniper and casts the darkness on himself then he can fire his Eldritch Blast out of the darkness giving him advantage while the enemy trying to see him can't so they get disadvantage.

I've also role played Eldritch Blast as if I was firing magical arrows like Uryu Ishida, the Quincy from the Bleach anime serious. However, I've also imagined using a Tonfa as my hexblade weapon and firing off EB from the tonfa like it was a gun, and I'm a D&D version of John Wick.

Just a quick comment ... a ring of spell storing is great for a multi-classed warlock with a caster class like sorcerer. It is almost useless for a pure warlock. Warlocks ONLY have leveled spell slots. A 5th level warlock ONLY has 2x3rd level slots. If the warlock casts shield into the ring then it is cast with a 3rd level spell slot and takes up 3 spaces in the ring. The storage of the ring is based on the spell slots used to cast the spell, not the level of the spell cast.

"The level of the slot used to cast the spell determines how much space it uses."

[DarknessEternal]

Hex is not a permanent bonus. It’s going to last for two rounds at best in actual play.

[Jack Bitters]

I'm surprised Swift Quiver hasn't made an appearance yet.. The ranger's 17th level dpr-boosting spell that gives two attacks as a bonus action, allowing for 4x(1d8+15) = 78 on rounds following the first one, not counting other things like Colossal Slayer (Hunter) or Foe Slayer (20th).

[Yunru]

Hex is not a permanent bonus. It’s going to last for two rounds at best in actual play.

Uh... Why? It's duration is long enough for 100 rounds, and your attacking from range so your concentration is unlikely to break. Unless you choose to drop it, it's likely to stay up.

[tieren]

On the short rest/long rest issue:

A long rest requires a period of sleep, a short rest only requires no activity more strenuous than walking.

If they are travelling in wilderness from spot to spot and the time between encounters exceeds one hour, then the warlock should always be fully "loaded".

[KorvinStarmast]

To be specific, it's just the stuff between the front cover and the back cover (inclusive of the covers themselves) that I dislike. Likewise.
If I want to play in Scott Kurtz's D&D world, I can read Table Titans and I can get some material via patreon if I want to.
If I want to play D&D in Gabe and Tycho's world, I can first stick my hand in a blender to get used to the abuse. :smallcool: (That said, I love how Mike and Jerry grew PAX from the ground up ... what they have made there is kinda awesome)

Sorry for the Thread drift, but AI never really did it for me. Grats to them for getting it published, though. There are plenty of folks who will enjoy it.

[Tanarii]

On the short rest/long rest issue:

A long rest requires a period of sleep, a short rest only requires no activity more strenuous than walking.

If they are travelling in wilderness from spot to spot and the time between encounters exceeds one hour, then the warlock should always be fully "loaded".
"A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."
(Taken from D&D Beyond)

Also, hiking through wilderness is not merely walking. Even if walking were allowed.

[Yunru]

"A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."
(Taken from D&D Beyond)

Also, hiking through wilderness is not merely walking. Even if walking were allowed.
Unless you personally aren't doing any of the work of course :P

[RSP]

Hex is not a permanent bonus. It’s going to last for two rounds at best in actual play.

Disagree. Have played warlocks thru OotA and SKT and it holds up fine, particularly if grabbing Warcaster or Resilient (Con), or playing at range with EB.

It’s a fine way to extend spell slots as it can be maintained through SRs for Hex + full slots. And kind of means you need to redo the DPR calculations if Warlock has Hex up in addition to 2 Synaptic Statics per SR.

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I find Warlocks weak in general, though its not due to EB. In fact, EB is really the only saving grace of the Warlock, and their ability to customize it a bit helps. The main issue is that the warlock simply does not get enough resources to work with. Sure, they get their spell slots back on a short rest, but whenever I compare them to any other short rest class like Moon Druids, Monks, or Battlemaster Fighters, they always seem to require more rests then those classes do in order to keep up with them. The fact that they only get 2 spell slots per Short rest until level 11 and a very limited number of invocations is what weakens them.

So while I agree with your friend that a Warlock can be weaker then an optimized Wizard, I disagree that it's due to EB.

EDIT: To put it into perspective as an AL player: A Battlemaster fighter can go through a Tier 3 adventure with a single short rests. Its difficult, yes, but they tend to not run out of things. Same with a Monk, they can run through a T2 adventure with a single Short Rest or no Short Rests at all. A Warlock, on the other hand, struggles because they have fewer resources. I speak from experience of playing a Monk, Battlemaster fighter, and Warlock.

[Petrocorus]

On the short rest issue, that would maybe be better to simply make the Warlock a long rest class by multiplying all resources that recharge on a short by 3 and have them recharge on a long rest.

On the Ranger vs Warlock issue, i do think the Ranger can outdamage the Warlock, notably thanks to Sharpshooter. But i would still prefer to play a Warlock over a PHB Ranger any day.
Because if the Ranger is better than the Warlock at DPS, he's worse at every other job.

[tieren]

"A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."
(Taken from D&D Beyond)

Also, hiking through wilderness is not merely walking. Even if walking were allowed.

In my group the warlock rides in the supply wagon as we travel over roads. The monk is in there meditating too. I know some DMs allow them while riding a horse.

[MaxWilson]

On the short rest issue, that would maybe be better to simply make the Warlock a long rest class by multiplying all resources that recharge on a short by 3 and have them recharge on a long rest.

On the Ranger vs Warlock issue, i do think the Ranger can outdamage the Warlock, notably thanks to Sharpshooter. But i would still prefer to play a Warlock over a PHB Ranger any day.
Because if the Ranger is better than the Warlock at DPS, he's worse at every other job.

Thanks to Goodberry (cast the previous day), Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace, and Conjure Animals, Ranger is still better than the Warlock at healing, sneaking, and meatshielding.

[Yunru]

Thanks to Goodberry (cast the previous day), Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace, and Conjure Animals, Ranger is still better than the Warlock at healing, sneaking, and meatshielding.

Goodberry still takes a spell slot, cast the previous day before or not.
Because if you cast it the day before, that means you had one less spell slot that day.

[Reevh]

Seems like a Warlock 3 / Sorcerer X would be extremely powerful, especially with Quicken metamagic. At level 11, just throw out 6 eldritch blast beams at the cost of 2 sorcery points. Running out of points? Convert some spell slots to get more.

At level 11, you have 8 sorcery points, and can make up to 31 more by converting spell slots, though you'd probably want to save a few slots for Hex.

That's a lot of rounds were you get:

6*(5.5+5+3.5) damage. If you have a +9 to hit (assuming no rod of the pact keeper), and your enemy has 16 AC, thats a 70% hit chance.

So 6*(5.5+5+3.5)*0.7 = 58.8 damage per round. If you have even a rod of the pact keeper+1, that goes up to 63 damage per round.

That's super solid damage. Can't be used every round, but often enough that it can really **** up some bosses fast.

[Yunru]

Seems like a Warlock 3 / Sorcerer X would be extremely powerful, especially with Quicken metamagic. At level 11, just throw out 6 eldritch blast beams at the cost of 2 sorcery points. Running out of points? Convert some spell slots to get more.

That's a weird way to say "Quicken Scorching Ray and cast Eldritch Blast." :P

[Reevh]

That's a weird way to say "Quicken Scorching Ray and cast Eldritch Blast." :P

Using scorching ray that way would be using precious spell slots (sorcery points). I'd rather have those two sorcery points later to get 3 more EB rays, rather than having slightly higher damage in this one round. Unless it's the big bad boss fight and you still have resources to play with.

[Petrocorus]

Thanks to Goodberry (cast the previous day), Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace, and Conjure Animals, Ranger is still better than the Warlock at healing, sneaking, and meatshielding.

I grant you healing of course, but sneaking and meatshielding?

The Warlock has no access (IIRC) to Pass Without Trace, but has access to Invisibility (earlier), at-will static invisibility (same level), Disguise Self (potentially at will), a familiar or improve familiar for scouting, and can also get a quite high Dex, even if he's not going to max it out, plus maybe Guidance.

The Hexblade has the same armor, Shield, can get Fiendish Vigor. And Gift of ELO. The Fiendlock get less armor but can take a feat and has auto-recharging THP.

The Warlock can be quite good at both this job.

[Chronos]

Yes, Goodberry still uses spell slots, but the point is that you can cast them at the end of the day, after you know how much you needed to spend on other things. You'll usually go to bed with at least a few spell slots left, and with Goodberry, none of them need go to waste. In the campaign I'm in, my ranger ends up out-healing both of the clerics, just because of Goodberry (though the bard probably heals more than the ranger, via Song of Rest).

[Misterwhisper]

Archery style, Swift quiver, hunter/deep stalker/whatever subclass/ hunters mark all make a ranger better at ranged than a warlock.

Scouting is a joke for any chain lock. Flying invisible spy is a win button.

[DarknessEternal]

Disagree. Have played warlocks thru OotA and SKT and it holds up fine, particularly if grabbing Warcaster or Resilient (Con), or playing at range with EB.
SR.

What an odd world you live in that doesn’t succumb to random distribution.

D&D doesn’t take place at 300’ or even 120’. It usually doesn’t even take place at 50’. Look at literally every adventure league module.

You will be hit 1 to 4 times per round every round. Without feats, hex will barely last until the round following its cast. With feats, sure, you might get 3 rounds out of it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

What an odd world you live in that doesn’t succumb to random distribution.

D&D doesn’t take place at 300’ or even 120’. It usually doesn’t even take place at 50’. Look at literally every adventure league module.

You will be hit 1 to 4 times per round every round. Without feats, hex will barely last until the round following its cast. With feats, sure, you might get 3 rounds out of it.

I don't follow your logic, just because close quarters might be common doesn't mean that your ranged combatants are guaranteed to be taking hits. Sure, they will sometimes take them but to claim that they will be hit not just once every round, but as many as four times is a huge exaggeration.

You're also assuming that they will automatically fail their con save. It seems like you may have just personally had a bad experience with concentration spells but they're typically not so short lived in my experience, it's not uncommon for myself or my allies to maintain concentration for a full hour+ duration between several combats.

[RSP]

What an odd world you live in that doesn’t succumb to random distribution.

D&D doesn’t take place at 300’ or even 120’. It usually doesn’t even take place at 50’. Look at literally every adventure league module.

You will be hit 1 to 4 times per round every round. Without feats, hex will barely last until the round following its cast. With feats, sure, you might get 3 rounds out of it.

Nothing to do with random distribution: ranged characters get targeted and hit a lot less than melee characters, who intentionally run up and engage the enemy.

If in your games, the enemies target characters in the back, taking Disadvantage because there’s a Raging Barbarian smacking them with a battle axe in the face, just because all characters need an equal chance to be targeted, I think you’re the one with an outlier.

Moreover, Hex doesn’t require any obvious visual/noticeable cues that a Concentration spell is active. I could see intelligent enemies targeting casters who appear to be Concentrating on some powerful effect, but that’s not the case with the Hex Warlock. It would take a DM who’s just attacking the Warlock for the sole purpose of breaking their Concentration, not for any in-game reason.

Now, if you’re a Melee Warlock, yeah, you’ll get hit more, and have more Con Saves for Conc. In this case, I’d recommend Warcaster, Resilient (Con) or both.

But, it’s not difficult to maintain Hex through multiple encounters as a ranged combatant; at least as I’ve seen it at my tables.

[Bigmouth]

I'm surprised Swift Quiver hasn't made an appearance yet.. The ranger's 17th level dpr-boosting spell that gives two attacks as a bonus action, allowing for 4x(1d8+15) = 78 on rounds following the first one, not counting other things like Colossal Slayer (Hunter) or Foe Slayer (20th).

Swift Quiver is certainly a game changer. Puts the Ranger back on top. I have been using Gloom Stalker instead of Hunter in most of my stuff, simply because it is what my wife is playing. At 20, GS outperforms Hunter over 3 rnds which is the theoretical target for combat length. If the combat goes over 5 rounds the Hunter is better.

In case you wanted those numbers.
Hunter 1st Rnd: 50.63 2nd+ Rnd: 59.73 AVG DPR over 2/3/4 rounds= 55.18/56.69/57.45
GS 1st Rnd: 62.55 2nd+ Rnd: 56.8 AVG DPR over 2/3/4 rounds= 59.68/58.72/58.24

[stoutstien]

Swift Quiver is certainly a game changer. Puts the Ranger back on top. I have been using Gloom Stalker instead of Hunter in most of my stuff, simply because it is what my wife is playing. At 20, GS outperforms Hunter over 3 rnds which is the theoretical target for combat length. If the combat goes over 5 rounds the Hunter is better.

In case you wanted those numbers.
Hunter 1st Rnd: 50.63 2nd+ Rnd: 59.73 AVG DPR over 2/3/4 rounds= 55.18/56.69/57.45
GS 1st Rnd: 62.55 2nd+ Rnd: 56.8 AVG DPR over 2/3/4 rounds= 59.68/58.72/58.24

Hunters are horde slayers. The more enemies they have the better they do.
The only real leg up gloom stalker has is a good expanded spell list which is a huge boost is spells know.

[Amechra]

Hunters are horde slayers. The more enemies they have the better they do.
The only real leg up gloom stalker has is a good expanded spell list which is a huge boost is spells know.

Honestly, Hunters and Horizon Walkers. I'd definitely go for Hunter if there were more "minions", though (Distant Strike is basically my favorite skirmisher ability. I wish they got it sooner.).

[stoutstien]

Honestly, Hunters and Horizon Walkers. I'd definitely go for Hunter if there were more "minions", though (Distant Strike is basically my favorite skirmisher ability. I wish they got it sooner.).

That's 80% of rangers IMO. To long before the get to do really cool unique stuff.

[Chronos]

Sure, Swift Quiver is good. But it's not as good as you might think, because you can't use it with Hunter's Mark, and it doesn't give you any benefit at all on the turn you cast it (and with a one-minute duration, you probably can't pre-cast it). And it definitely doesn't put the ranger over the top compared to the warlock, because at the same level that the ranger gets Swift Quiver, the warlock gets True Polymorph, and two levels before that, the warlock gets Dominate Monster.

[Willie the Duck]

Hunters are horde slayers. The more enemies they have the better they do.
The only real leg up gloom stalker has is a good expanded spell list which is a huge boost is spells know.

Will save prof and ability to choose non-darkvision races and still play up the unseen scout (by not requiring light sources) are definite perks, although not in damage calculations.

[Bigmouth]

Personally, I find Warlocks weak in general, though its not due to EB. In fact, EB is really the only saving grace of the Warlock, and their ability to customize it a bit helps. The main issue is that the warlock simply does not get enough resources to work with. Sure, they get their spell slots back on a short rest, but whenever I compare them to any other short rest class like Moon Druids, Monks, or Battlemaster Fighters, they always seem to require more rests then those classes do in order to keep up with them. The fact that they only get 2 spell slots per Short rest until level 11 and a very limited number of invocations is what weakens them.

So while I agree with your friend that a Warlock can be weaker then an optimized Wizard, I disagree that it's due to EB.

EDIT: To put it into perspective as an AL player: A Battlemaster fighter can go through a Tier 3 adventure with a single short rests. Its difficult, yes, but they tend to not run out of things. Same with a Monk, they can run through a T2 adventure with a single Short Rest or no Short Rests at all. A Warlock, on the other hand, struggles because they have fewer resources. I speak from experience of playing a Monk, Battlemaster fighter, and Warlock.

On the actual subject of whether the warlock sucks I tend to think it sucks in comparison to the wizard, which I think is broken. That's where the discussion of the EB comes into play. The ranger is arguably built around the bow with some flavor spells and abilities. The warlock is built around EB with some flavor abilities and spells. If you compare them with the wizard then the lack of spells is definitely going to leave a sour taste in your mouth. Another way of saying this is that I think Warlocks aren't broken. Wizards are broken. If wizards weren't in the game, then warlocks would seem a lot more reasonable. A steady source of offense from EB, with lots of tricks you can add to it, with a limited amount of spells for further spice and utility.

[Yakmala]

I've got a Gloomstalker / Assassin multiclass currently at 5/3. The next two levels will be fighter.

With high Dexterity, Alert and the Gloomstalker ability, he has +12 to Initiative currently.

At level 10, opening round (assuming a BBEG worth using Action Surge on) will be 6 arrows with a longbow, almost always with Advantage due to Alert + Assassination. Add in Sharpshooter + Hunter's Mark and, assuming most of his arrows hit, he's looking at a heck of a lot of damage. If he was fortunate enough to get surprise, double it.

Can a Warlock beat this? Sure, at higher levels maybe. I once ran into a high level Sorlock at a gaming convention with two levels of fighter and a Simulacrum from a wish spell. That's 4 EBs, doubled to 8 from Quicken, then doubled again to 16 from Action Surge and another Quicken, then his Simulacrum would do the same thing for a total of 32 EBs.

But that's not the level most of the game is played at. So, in the 5-15 range, I'd still take a Ranger, perhaps with some multiclassing.

[Jack Bitters]

Sure, Swift Quiver is good. But it's not as good as you might think, because you can't use it with Hunter's Mark, and it doesn't give you any benefit at all on the turn you cast it (and with a one-minute duration, you probably can't pre-cast it). And it definitely doesn't put the ranger over the top compared to the warlock, because at the same level that the ranger gets Swift Quiver, the warlock gets True Polymorph, and two levels before that, the warlock gets Dominate Monster.

With respect, the question of the thread is whether a ranger with a bow is better than a warlock with eldritch blast. Neither True Polymorph or Dominate Monster factor in here, because we're only comparing damage output, and not comparing a full caster to a half caster.

Damage-wise, the warlock is pumping out 4x(1d10+1d6+5) = 42 damage per round at level 17. If you're quickening EB you can double that to 84. The ranger has 4x(1d8+15) = 78 damage per round, except the first round.
Both could have a range of 600 feet. Sometimes range matters. Hex and Hunter's Mark have a range of 90 feet; swift quiver does not.
The warlock can push or pull things with eldritch blast, and the ranger benefits more from magic items*––the uncommon item bracers of archery would bring the base damage up to 86. The oathbow is comparable to the Ravnica bracers, increasing damage by 42 over four attacks.
Both have to maintain concentration–the warlock for hex, and the ranger for swift quiver.
Both suffer in the first round: the warlock for transferring hex, and the ranger for casting swift quiver. A gloomstalker would shine in the first round.
A hexblade warlock would have the best single target damage post round 2: up to 8x(1d10+1d6+11) = 160. A hunter ranger could hit five separate targets at 19.5 damage each (97.5 total). (Including the oathbow and bracers of archery brings this damage also to 160, funnily enough).
Both have limited resources. Dependent on magic items and multiclassing.

*for damage. Accuracy-wise, the warlock usually wins.

After writing all that, they feel sort of equal to me. Or at least really similar. It's almost beautiful.

[sithlordnergal]

On the actual subject of whether the warlock sucks I tend to think it sucks in comparison to the wizard, which I think is broken. That's where the discussion of the EB comes into play. The ranger is arguably built around the bow with some flavor spells and abilities. The warlock is built around EB with some flavor abilities and spells. If you compare them with the wizard then the lack of spells is definitely going to leave a sour taste in your mouth. Another way of saying this is that I think Warlocks aren't broken. Wizards are broken. If wizards weren't in the game, then warlocks would seem a lot more reasonable. A steady source of offense from EB, with lots of tricks you can add to it, with a limited amount of spells for further spice and utility.

Oh I don't compare the Warlock to any full caster, not after I got some advice from different threads. I compare them to other Short Rest classes, like the Monk and Fighter. And even then the Warlock falls short due to an over reliance on short rests. They only have 4 invocations and 2 spell slots at level 8. To make it worse, one of their significant spells, Hex, is concentration. Meaning you can lose it by casting any other concentration spells or being hit.

Compare that to the Monk. At level 8 they have 8 Ki Points, but everything they do only costs a single Ki point. Unless you're blowing through everything in a single encounter, or you're a Four Elements Monk, you can go through multiple encounters before you need a short rest.

EDIT: Long story short, everyone who talks about how to play a warlock says to short rest whenever you can, and sneak in as many short rests as possible, then they're great. My issue with that is that if I did that with a Monk or a Fighter, I would never run out of resources, where as the Warlock needs all of those short rests to stay on par with the rest of the classes

[stoutstien]

Will save prof and ability to choose non-darkvision races and still play up the unseen scout (by not requiring light sources) are definite perks, although not in damage calculations.

Same with multi attack defense and Evasion.

Both GS and hunters show the core of rangers. Situational based features. I don't tend to try to compare rangers to warlocks because they don't have much in common but in short I think that rangers with a bow have a lower floor but a higher ceiling of damage compared to EB which is consistent regardless of most factors.

Something as simple as tracking arrows and an unusually long adventuring day is something that doesn't show in a flat damage comparison.

[RSP]

Oh I don't compare the Warlock to any full caster, not

I think a general comparison between “Warlock” and anything isn’t going to be a fair comparison. Warlock, in my opinion, and way more than any other class, has to know what it’s role will be, or, rather, needs to be built to fill its play style.

Want to be a “trickster”: Disguise Self and Silent Image at will. Want to be in melee: Pact of the Blade with some combat invocations.

It doesn’t have to be “optimized” but it’s a class that you need to know, and know what you want, as you build it. Don’t take Misty Visions and Eldritch Sight, thinking you’ll use them throughout the day while running Hex for damage. You’ll be disappointed in how often you end up using spell slots recasting Hex. Now you can certainly make that combo work so long as you go into it understanding that.

The beauty of the Warlock is it can fill whatever role/play style, while also being a solid to very good ranged combatant due to EB.

You can be an infiltrator and ranged combatant. You can be good in melee and a ranged combatant. You can be a utility caster and a ranged combatant.

And, as this thread has shown, the Warlock’s damage is good but not elite. However, no other class has the at-will control of a Warlock with RB (or the other movement altering EB invocations).

And that’s a good thing: don’t play a Warlock if you want to play a Ranger or a Wizard (though the Warlock can make a fair copy of either). But my suggestion is, if trying to compare the classes, compare them by what they do, not just on something like “EB vs Bow”.

[Yunru]

Oh I don't compare the Warlock to any full caster, not after I got some advice from different threads. I compare them to other Short Rest classes, like the Monk and Fighter. And even then the Warlock falls short due to an over reliance on short rests. They only have 4 invocations and 2 spell slots at level 8. To make it worse, one of their significant spells, Hex, is concentration. Meaning you can lose it by casting any other concentration spells or being hit.

Compare that to the Monk. At level 8 they have 8 Ki Points, but everything they do only costs a single Ki point. Unless you're blowing through everything in a single encounter, or you're a Four Elements Monk, you can go through multiple encounters before you need a short rest.

EDIT: Long story short, everyone who talks about how to play a warlock says to short rest whenever you can, and sneak in as many short rests as possible, then they're great. My issue with that is that if I did that with a Monk or a Fighter, I would never run out of resources, where as the Warlock needs all of those short rests to stay on par with the rest of the classes

4 elements is actually a perfect comparison.
A 4 Elements Monk can cast as many spells before needing to recharge Ki as a Warlock with Spell Points can.

[Reevh]

What an odd world you live in that doesn’t succumb to random distribution.

D&D doesn’t take place at 300’ or even 120’. It usually doesn’t even take place at 50’. Look at literally every adventure league module.

You will be hit 1 to 4 times per round every round. Without feats, hex will barely last until the round following its cast. With feats, sure, you might get 3 rounds out of it.

Ranged characters at my table sure as hell aren't hit 1-4 times per round. They'll get hit, of course, but it's maybe a tenth as often as the melee.

[Bigmouth]

The root cause of this thread is that my friend compares the warlock to wizard. I suggested comparing to ranger due to the solid single target abilities at the core of each. Spell load is similar 6 known with 9 slots for ranger (9 known for newer rangers), 10 known with 2 slots for warlock +5 invocations. IMO neither is meant to be played as 100% casters, solving every situation with spells. Heck, if you consider the 2 encounters between short rest gold standard, then warlocks effectively have no spells before level 11 if they are going to pump up their EB with Hex in both of those encounters.

Also, in my swift quiver numbers I forgot that casting Swift Quiver would prevent also using Hunter's Mark. This produces a significant drop in DPR. 3 RND AVG for Hunter: 50.63 GS: 52.65

[Yunru]

Heck, if you consider the 2 encounters between short rest gold standard, then warlocks effectively have no spells before level 11 if they are going to pump up their EB with Hex in both of those encounters.

Why?
Hex has a massive duration at higher levels.

[tieren]

I agree with the poster that building your warlock with a particular focus is important. The chassis can do almost anything, but not at the same time. They are not the all-arounder a bard could be.

If I wanted to play a magical archer that shoots bolts of force from a summoned bow, I would play a warlock, trick it out with the best EB invocations, maybe go pact of the chain to get an invisible scout to root out targets for me to shoot at insane distances or just use the help action for advantage every turn.

If I wanted to play an illusionist, I would go with a fey pact warlock, take at will silent image and disguise self, go pact of the tome and pick up every ritual in the game. Be the squishy whos not the best at DPR, but can control (sleep, hypnotic pattern, suggetion, etc...) with the best of them.

Personally, if my main focus is looking at whether I can do more damage with a ranger bow or a warlock EB I would choose the ranger, because I don't think straight hp damage is ever the best use of a warlock sell slot, so I wouldn't burn it on hex, but some field altering effect (hunger of hadar, sickening radiance, polymorph, etc...).

Polymorph can certaily do more damage then a bow or cantrip, turn enemy into a snail, have flying familiar carry said snail high in the sky, drop said snail for the max 20d6 falling damage.

[rbstr]

If you're going to Hex in a fight against multiple enemies you're being dumb and deserve the inefficiency you're getting out of it. Warlock's got a lot more they can do than hex one mook out of a dozen and EB it to oblivion. Really, hex is often not a super smart spell to use.
Of course, same goes for the Ranger - sleeping on their AOE spells is a mistake, if one of the ranger's big strengths. But the Warlocks AOE and control is at a whole different level (literal spell levels).


4 elements is actually a perfect comparison.
A 4 Elements Monk can cast as many spells before needing to recharge Ki as a Warlock with Spell Points can.


EDIT: Long story short, everyone who talks about how to play a warlock says to short rest whenever you can, and sneak in as many short rests as possible, then they're great. My issue with that is that if I did that with a Monk or a Fighter, I would never run out of resources, where as the Warlock needs all of those short rests to stay on par with the rest of the classes

If you guys want to ignore how those resources are vastly different in power level. At level 3 a Battlemaster is adding ~4d8 - 18ish of damage per short rest with some riders. The 4E monk is casting a single level 1 spell (burning hands against a couple dudes for 6d6 damage total is a pretty good use). A regular monk is doing up to 3 extra attacks via flurry 3*(d6+4) 22.5 ish. The warlock is going to have two level 2 spells. Maybe shatter twice on two folks for 12d8 damage?
The difference in per-rest power gets a lot worse starting at level 5 and the warlock's level 3 spells. Going at level 8, like the original monk comparison. Monk's got 2 level 2 spells and two flurrys or just 8 extra attacks (pretty good!). Fighter now has 5d8s to play with. Warlock has 2 level 4 Spells...
So your fighter/monk might never run out of their abilities...but they're really doing much less with the resource over all. Which, of course, is why the warlock is generally flimsier and has fewer non-spell features compared to the other two.
So of course the Warlock wants to squeeze in as many short rests as is possible. They get more power out of them than any other class by a whole boatload.

[RSP]

If you're going to Hex in a fight against multiple enemies you're being dumb and deserve the inefficiency you're getting out of it.

This analysis seems based off a one-encounter work day. The efficiency of Hex is that it has a long duration that can be maintained after SRing to regain all slots.

So it’s not Hex vs other spells; it’s Hex and other spells. Having a Hex up and using your slots to Synaptic Static is a great way to deal with multiple enemies.

[Bigmouth]

Why?
Hex has a massive duration at higher levels.

Mainly because I didn't look at the duration of the spell when cast at higher levels. :D

[Yunru]

If you're going to Hex in a fight against multiple enemies you're being dumb and deserve the inefficiency you're getting out of it. Warlock's got a lot more they can do than hex one mook out of a dozen and EB it to oblivion. Really, hex is often not a super smart spell to use.
Of course, same goes for the Ranger - sleeping on their AOE spells is a mistake, if one of the ranger's big strengths. But the Warlocks AOE and control is at a whole different level (literal spell levels).





If you guys want to ignore how those resources are vastly different in power level. At level 3 a Battlemaster is adding ~4d8 - 18ish of damage per short rest with some riders. The 4E monk is casting a single level 1 spell (burning hands against a couple dudes for 6d6 damage total is a pretty good use). A regular monk is doing up to 3 extra attacks via flurry 3*(d6+4) 22.5 ish. The warlock is going to have two level 2 spells. Maybe shatter twice on two folks for 12d8 damage?
The difference in per-rest power gets a lot worse starting at level 5 and the warlock's level 3 spells. Going at level 8, like the original monk comparison. Monk's got 2 level 2 spells and two flurrys or just 8 extra attacks (pretty good!). Fighter now has 5d8s to play with. Warlock has 2 level 4 Spells...
So your fighter/monk might never run out of their abilities...but they're really doing much less with the resource over all. Which, of course, is why the warlock is generally flimsier and has fewer non-spell features compared to the other two.
So of course the Warlock wants to squeeze in as many short rests as is possible. They get more power out of them than any other class by a whole boatload.

I never claimed it was a favourable comparison, just a good one.

[Reevh]

Mainly because I didn't look at the duration of the spell when cast at higher levels. :D

Hah, kudos to you for admitting that outright. :)

[MirrorDarkly]

I really feel Hex is a bad choice for the Warlocks concentration. In combat I've used it all of one time and that was to give disadvantage on a flying enemy's Strength checks.

I'd much rather use Hypnotic Pattern, Darkness (+Devel's Sight +Elven Accuracy), Banishment, or as mentioned above if I want damage Sickening Radiance.

Sure Hex can be maintained through short rests but it just adds some damage per attack where as any of those options, and many more, have such a larger effect on the encounter.

[Reevh]

I really feel Hex is a bad choice for the Warlocks concentration. In combat I've used it all of one time and that was to give disadvantage on a flying enemy's Strength checks.

I'd much rather use Hypnotic Pattern, Darkness (+Devel's Sight +Elven Accuracy), Banishment, or as mentioned above if I want damage Sickening Radiance.

Sure Hex can be maintained through short rests but it just adds some damage per attack where as any of those options, and many more, have such a larger effect on the encounter.

I'd agree with you if I were playing one encounter per day. But generally speaking I see up to 4 encounters per short rest. I'm not going to blow my big resources on the "trash" encounters that are there mostly to get us to spend resources/HP, but I will throw up a Hex, because it's a big damage boost that means I don't have to use other spell slots for those first three encounters before the big fight.

[Chronos]

Why would you ever use Hex (or Hunter's Mark, for that matter) against a single mook? You use it on one target until it dies, then you move it to another target until that one dies, and so on. The only reason you wouldn't get use out of it for all targets is if you're switching targets before your first target is dead, and that's usually bad tactics even without Hex.

That said, I agree that Hex isn't necessarily the best thing to use your concentration on. It might be if you're planning to focus on your Eldritch Blast, but there are so many other things you could be concentrating on instead.

[MirrorDarkly]

I'd agree with you if I were playing one encounter per day. But generally speaking I see up to 4 encounters per short rest. I'm not going to blow my big resources on the "trash" encounters that are there mostly to get us to spend resources/HP, but I will throw up a Hex, because it's a big damage boost that means I don't have to use other spell slots for those first three encounters before the big fight.

The table I play at normally see 1-3 encounters per short rest. If it's truly a trash encounter I find cantrips + at will invocations + flying invisible familiar allows me to contribute plenty without spending a spell slot. But your table may of course be different.