lich-b-gone: non-destructive alternatives for enemy phylacteries

[Venger]

aside from baking the phylactery into a grisgol, what are other things you can do with a phylactery to prevent an enemy lich from respawning?

[SangoProduction]

aside from baking the phylactery into a grisgol, what are other things you can do with a phylactery to prevent an enemy lich from respawning?

Taking a "capture, don't kill" approach?

There aren't a lot of mundane methods of sepuku available to the undead. Keep them under an antimagic lock and key, and put in a permanent silence bubble so they can't talk their way out.
You would need a method of healing undead without magic so that it can't just beat itself to death....which is going to be difficult. Especially since, if you build in a vulnerability so that only a specific type of magic (such as psionics) can penetrate the field, then he's just some study and introspection away from figuring that out and abusing it to escape. Or at the very least kill anyone who tries to heal him. And he's immortal. He's got a lot of time to study.

At this point you're literally building a torture device for an immortal being, but...

[RedMage125]

Toss it into the Positive Energy Plane?

[Venger]

Taking a "capture, don't kill" approach?
I mean, kind of.

More along the lines of the purify water trick for non-liches. The same way you are keeping their body intact so they can't be rez'd, the same thing but with the lich's phylactery. Don't destroy it so he can't be rez'd, but keep it incapacitated somehow so he can't grow a new body.


There aren't a lot of mundane methods of sepuku available to the undead. Keep them under an antimagic lock and key, and put in a permanent silence bubble so they can't talk their way out.
You would need a method of healing undead without magic so that it can't just beat itself to death....which is going to be difficult. Especially since, if you build in a vulnerability so that only a specific type of magic (such as psionics) can penetrate the field, then he's just some study and introspection away from figuring that out and abusing it to escape. Or at the very least kill anyone who tries to heal him. And he's immortal. He's got a lot of time to study.

At this point you're literally building a torture device for an immortal being, but...
All good jumping off points

[TheNerfGuy]

What about for killing the lich and keeping it from returning a few days later? Are there ways of doing that even after the lich is slain? I know Dracoliches can be prevented from coming back by simply keeping suitable bodies away from its phylactery, but what about normal liches?

What actually allows the lich to return? And where does the lich get its new body from when its previous one is destroyed (such as from being blown up by Turn Undead)?

[ETA] Libris Mortis page 151 says that a Lich's Phylactery that is stored in an Anti-Magic Field (and/or affected by an Anti-Magic Ray spell) cannot recreate the destroyed Lich. Presumably, if the Antimagic Field can be maintained indefinitely, the Lich is screwed, though the only reason I can fathom as to why one would do that is to have enough time to create a construct that is powered by said Phylactery, such as a Grisgol.

[Venger]

Aside from dipping the phylactery in quintessence or putting it in a slow time plane, not really.

That's a power all liches have. When you are killed, assuming your phylactery is intact, you regenerate a new body in full in 1d10 days. Presumably in the spot where you were killed. It is created instantaneously from the ether.

[TheNerfGuy]

I did give page 151 of Libris Mortis a read, and the section on Lich Phylacteries did say that storing the item in an Antimagic Field stops it from respawning the destroyed Lich; it still returns 1d10 days after being removed from the area.

As long as the Antimagic Field can be maintained, the Lich is screwed, and you can build a Grisgol or any other construct or item that uses a Lich's Phylactery as the power source, even on short notice.

[SangoProduction]

That *is* dependent upon being able to find the phylactery however.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use the BoVD rules for using a soul as a spell component. Sure, it's horrifically evil, but it's a lich's soul. You're committing a good act by destroying it.

Lay an item made of thinaun on the phylactery. When the lich dies, its soul will be pulled into the thinaun item.

Have a psion in the party with a psicrystal, quintessence as a power known, and null psionics field as a power known. Mount the psicrystal into a necklace and have the party barbarian wear it around his neck. The barbarian gets within ten feet of the lich, the psion manifests null psionics field on his psicrystal, and the barbarian grapples the lich, stuffing it in a container the psion previously filled with quintessence. Now stuff the container somewhere it won't be bothered, such as in a demiplane made with the genesis power where the floor air is made of lava quintessence. This works on demiliches too, by the way.

[Bphill561]

I always thought it was fun to feed it to the party Artificer. Ancestral relic would work too, but will be on the run for quite some time dodging the lich.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dig a hole to bedrock (use Move Earth if necessary), put it in the hole, cast Stone Shape to completely encase it in a very large rock. Cast Miracle or Wish to make the space it currently occupies into a permanent dead magic area. Fill the hole with dirt, use Move Earth again if necessary. Since it's in a dead magic area, no magical effects could ever have a chance of finding it, other than maybe a Legend Lore or similar revealing it was last in the possession of your party. Dead magic is the same as AMF for preventing the lich from spawning, so problem solved.


Alternatively, cast Genesis to create a pocket plane that's entirely a dead magic (and dead psionic, if different) area. Plane Shift it to that pocket plane, the lich can't reform and nothing but epic spells or an Initiate of Mystra can escape that plane via magical means. Again it's in a dead magic area, so locating it using magic is impossible. Gate shouldn't even be able to access that pocket plane, as it needs to manifest the gate (a non-instantaneous creation effect) at the destination, and the dead magic planar trait would prevent this. Bonus points if the Plane Shift spell focus keyed to your pocket plane is the phylactery itself, so one would need the phylactery in their possession (or an exact replica of it) just to travel there in the first place.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dig a hole to bedrock (use Move Earth if necessary), put it in the hole, cast Stone Shape to completely encase it in a very large rock. Cast Miracle or Wish to make the space it currently occupies into a permanent dead magic area. Fill the hole with dirt, use Move Earth again if necessary. Since it's in a dead magic area, no magical effects could ever have a chance of finding it, other than maybe a Legend Lore or similar revealing it was last in the possession of your party. Dead magic is the same as AMF for preventing the lich from spawning, so problem solved.


Alternatively, cast Genesis to create a pocket plane that's entirely a dead magic (and dead psionic, if different) area. Plane Shift it to that pocket plane, the lich can't reform and nothing but epic spells or an Initiate of Mystra can escape that plane via magical means. Again it's in a dead magic area, so locating it using magic is impossible. Gate shouldn't even be able to access that pocket plane, as it needs to manifest the gate (a non-instantaneous creation effect) at the destination, and the dead magic planar trait would prevent this. Bonus points if the Plane Shift spell focus keyed to your pocket plane is the phylactery itself, so one would need the phylactery in their possession (or an exact replica of it) just to travel there in the first place.Respawning is the ability of the lich, not the phylactery, and there's nothing even suggesting in the rules that the lich spawns near the phylactery.

All you just did was protect the phylactery from anyone ever finding or destroying it.

GG, BF. GG.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Respawning is the ability of the lich, not the phylactery, and there's nothing even suggesting in the rules that the lich spawns near the phylactery.

All you just did was protect the phylactery from anyone ever finding or destroying it.

GG, BF. GG.

As already pointed out in this thread, Libris Mortis p151 says this does actually work:

A phylactery in an antimagic field cannot recreate a
destroyed lich, though the lich returns to life 1d10 days after
the phylactery is removed from the area.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As already pointed out in this thread, Libris Mortis p151 says this does actually work:Funny. The original source (the MMI) says nothing about this.

[Calthropstu]

I should really read the whole thread before posting.

A new alternative, place the phylactory in a stasis trap. The moment it respawns, it gets hit with stasis.

[SangoProduction]

Funny. The original source (the MMI) says nothing about this.

Of course, since there's no contradiction between what is said in either source (as the original doesn't even talk about it), then both are true - especially considering MM1 is a vast book of many monsters, with relatively small descriptions, while the other is a focused book, expanding / clarifying the creatures in that specific category.

[EisenKreutzer]

Funny. The original source (the MMI) says nothing about this.

Specific trumps general. Plus, not mentioning something is not the same as declaring it is untrue.
Libris Mortis is the newer source, and as far as I can tell the rules on p. 151 are not optional rules.

[SangoProduction]

Specific trumps general. Plus, not mentioning something is not the same as declaring it is untrue.
Libris Mortis is the newer source, and as far as I can tell the rules on p. 151 are not optional rules.

Well... all rules are optional. But I think that's aside the point.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I had an evil Cleric who used Miracle to remove the phylactery's ability to regenerate the Lich. Effectively turning the phylactery into a soul gem. So that way I could mock and torture him personally.

[EisenKreutzer]

Well... all rules are optional. But I think that's aside the point.

Sure, every rule is optional in the sense that any group is free to play the game in absolutely any way they like.

But as a part of the game, no. The rules of chess are not optional. The rules of monopoly are not optional. Neither are the rules of D&D.
Ootional rules are specifically called out as such in the books. If it’s not called out specifically, then it is not optional. Can you ignore it? Yes, you can ignore any rule in the game, nobody can stop you and your fun trumps everything else. But «optional rule» has a specific meaning in this game.

[The Viscount]

Toss it into the Positive Energy Plane?

You'd think it would do something, but that just gives the Lich fast healing when it reforms. Positive Energy Plane is funny that way.


Use the BoVD rules for using a soul as a spell component. Sure, it's horrifically evil, but it's a lich's soul. You're committing a good act by destroying it.

Lay an item made of thinaun on the phylactery. When the lich dies, its soul will be pulled into the thinaun item.

Funnily enough, the phylactery does not hold a lich's soul, merely its "life force." I'm not sure that you can do anything with thinaun since undead do not die, and are instead destroyed.


There's always the old trick of putting the phylactery in a bag of holding and then put the bag in a portable hole. The risk here is that having it be "lost forever" might be equivalent to being destroyed, at which point anyone can use a true resurrection to get the lich back. If you interpret it to mean they still exist, the lich can maybe still reform, but locked away from everything. I'm assuming the lich could not simply plane shift out of it, though maybe they could wish themselves out. Kind of a gray area.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Re-enact the advent of an Elder Evil?

Toss the phylactery in a bag of devouring?

Since the phylactery (apparently) doesn't hold the soul, find the soul in the afterlife, kill the body, then knock the soul unconscious to ensure that it is "willing" and resurrect it. What happens to the lich then? Let's find out!

Gift the phylactery to a Good-aligned god. Or at least a Neutral/Evil one who hates undead.

[daremetoidareyo]

Use the gem as a spell component for an instantaneous or permanent spell: poof, irretrievably lost forever, but still kinda existent.

[Particle_Man]

All of these methods seem like a lot more work than just destroying the phylactery.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All of these methods seem like a lot more work than just destroying the phylactery.

Remember when Gimli tried to destroy the ring?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember when Gimli tried to destroy the ring?Was he the son of Groin?

[The Viscount]

All of these methods seem like a lot more work than just destroying the phylactery.

They likely are, but for a creature like a lich, who is a powerful caster with likely subjects, death is simply an inconvenience. They can be resurrected if you destroy them and the phylactery. At high power levels imprisoning is sometimes harder to get out of than death.

[Helluin]

A Phylactery is a wondrous item, and therefore I second the opinion of having an artificer breaking it into crafting XP.

“All of our product is cruelty-free!”

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Disjunction the crap lich crap out of it.

[RedMage125]

Use the BoVD rules for using a soul as a spell component. Sure, it's horrifically evil, but it's a lich's soul. You're committing a good act by destroying it.

Negative, it's still an evil act.

Destroying a phylactery is not the same as "destroying/harming a soul". The phylactery is actually part of what keeps an undead monster around, so it's a necessary step. Destorying both lich and phylactery presumably frees the soul to go on to whichever afterlife it has earned.

Destroying a soul forever (to include using it as a spell component) is one of those Always Evil acts. And the line you're confusing in the BoVD says that killing a creature of consumate, irredeemable Evil, such as a fiend or a chrmoatic dragon, is not an evil actm even if done for selfish purposes. But there's a huge gulf between 'killing these creatures is Good" and "it's okay to destroy their soul".



Respawning is the ability of the lich, not the phylactery, and there's nothing even suggesting in the rules that the lich spawns near the phylactery.



Funny. The original source (the MMI) says nothing about this.
My Monster Manual states that the "respawning" is, in fact, a property of the phylactery.

"Phylactery", however, is not actually mentioned in the lich template (weird, huh). Nothing about adding that template to a spellcaster says anything about a phylactery inthe Template stat block. Nor is "Phylactery" or anything similar to "respawning" mentioned under Special Qualities of the sample lich, nor the template. All properties of the phylactery are mentioned under the heading "Phylactery", which can be found in the Lich entry in the Monster Manual. And those properties include bringing the lich back.'

If you destroy a phylactery before you destroy the lich, it is still a lich, but will not "respawn".

You'd think it would do something, but that just gives the Lich fast healing when it reforms. Positive Energy Plane is funny that way.

I need to get back into my books. I could have sworn that there's something under the heading of the undead type that explicitly specifies that any kind of "healing from positive energy" is harmful to undead.

[Vaern]

I need to get back into my books. I could have sworn that there's something under the heading of the undead type that explicitly specifies that any kind of "healing from positive energy" is harmful to undead.
The Undead Type entry in the Monster Manual states that they are healed by negative energy, but nothing explicitly states that positive energy on its own is harmful to undead. At least not in core rules. Instead, each spell which heals living creatures using positive energy but deals damage when used against undead specifically calls out this behavior in its description. There may be something in one of the supplement books that says otherwise, though... I haven't exactly combed through them all :p
Anyway, positive energy dominant planes don't actually heal anything directly. Instead, anything on a positive energy plane gains the fast healing quality as an extraordinary ability, which explicitly functions normally on undead as per the type description in the Monster Manual.


"Phylactery", however, is not actually mentioned in the lich template (weird, huh). Nothing about adding that template to a spellcaster says anything about a phylactery inthe Template stat block. Nor is "Phylactery" or anything similar to "respawning" mentioned under Special Qualities of the sample lich, nor the template. All properties of the phylactery are mentioned under the heading "Phylactery", which can be found in the Lich entry in the Monster Manual. And those properties include bringing the lich back.'

CREATING A LICH
“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery; see The Lich’s Phylactery, below.
Crafting the phylactery is specifically called out in the first sentence of the template's description as a prerequisite to becoming a lich. Just saying.
You are absolutely correct, though, that the ability for the lich to reappear after having been destroyed seems to be a quality of the item rather than the creature.
Wikipedia's entry on liches says that if their body is destroyed then their soul returns to their phylactery, where their body will be recreated. From what I can tell, though, none of this is mentioned in the Monster Manual or in Libris Mortis. There doesn't seem to be any official ruling that I can find - at least in 3.5 - on where the lich reappears.
Pathfinder, though, does state that the phylactery of a destroyed lich will begin rebuilding the lich's body nearby. In this case, it is described as an ability of the lich itself which is only capable of functioning through its phylactery.

[ShurikVch]

Hunter of the Dead PrC have True Death CF: lich destroyed by them wouldn't come back, period.
Thus, you get the free phylactery (presuming you know what is the phylactery and where is it)