Don't make my mistake xD

[Bjarkmundur]

- A Barbarian and a Wizard walk into a cultist ritual site.
- Roll for initiative.
- They characters were smart and readied actions before bursting through the door.
- Surprise!
- DM is using a module, and forgets to check the Encounter CR, and adjust it to only having 2 players.
- **** goes down, Spined Devils got the McGuffin, and flies out the window.
- Wizard jumps out of the window after him, but a cultists casts Hold Person.
- Wizard falls on his face from the second floor.
- Barbarian attempts to come to the rescue, but the other cultist casts Inflict Wounds
- DM didn't think, rolled dice in the open.
- Critical Hit.
- Barbarian instakilled.
- Never going to forget to calculate CR again when playing from a module.
- Probably would've worked out fine without the critical hit.
- RIP Barbarian

[stoutstien]

- A Barbarian and a Wizard walk into a cultist ritual site.
- Roll for initiative.
- They characters were smart and readied actions before bursting through the door.
- Surprise!
- DM is using a module, and forgets to check the Encounter CR, and adjust it to only having 2 players.
- **** goes down, Spined Devils got the McGuffin!
- Wizard jumps out of the window after him, but a cultists casts Hold Person.
- Wizard falls on his face from the second floor.
- Barbarian attempts to come to the rescue, but the other cultist casts Inflict Wounds
- DM didn't think, rolled dice in the open.
- Critical Hit.
- Barbarian instakilled.
- Never going to forget to calculate CR again when playing from a module.
- Probably would've worked out fine without the critical hit.
- RIP Barbarian

-There is no insta kill in 5e. No negative hp. There is a variant rule in the DMG but still.
-if the party has surprise them the NPC cannot take actions the 1st round.
-you dont need a ready action to get surprise.
-

[Keravath]

-There is no insta kill in 5e. No negative hp. There is a variant rule in the DMG but still.
-if the party has surprise them the NPC cannot take actions the 1st round.
-you dont need a ready action to get surprise.
-

There IS insta-kill in 5e. If you take damage totalling more than your negative hit points then you die. This can happen easily on crits at full health for levels 1-2 especially. At higher levels it can happen if you are low on hit points or the damage is excessive. I had one character with full 26 hit points (level 3) who was hit by a crit from a giant crocodile doing 51 points of damage leaving him 1 hit point from insta-killed.

PHB p197

"INSTANT DEATH
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum."

To the OP:

I don't understand the order of events in terms of 5e ...

- Wizard jumps out of the window after him, but a cultists casts Hold Person.
- Wizard falls on his face from the second floor.
- Barbarian attempts to come to the rescue, but the other cultist casts Inflict Wounds

If it is the wizard's turn, they jump out the window and drop to the ground during their movement. I don't see how a cultist could cast a spell unless they had readied a hold person spell (which burns the spell slot anyway). The cultist could do this if they were outside with a readied spell action to cast hold person when an opponent came into view. That seems a bit unlikely though but it would be possible. If the cultist was inside the room and could see the wizard then it doesn't make any sense to ready the spell instead of just casting it at the wizard on their turn.

In the second case with the barbarian, I am guessing he jumped out the window on their turn and the cultist ran up to the barbarian on their next turn to cast inflict wounds? Inflict wounds is a range of touch.

However, the narrative made it sound like the devils flew out the window leaving the cultists behind.

[stoutstien]

There IS insta-kill in 5e. If you take damage totalling more than your negative hit points then you die. This can happen easily on crits at full health for levels 1-2 especially. At higher levels it can happen if you are low on hit points or the damage is excessive. I had one character with full 26 hit points (level 3) who was hit by a crit from a giant crocodile doing 51 points of damage leaving him 1 hit point from insta-killed.

PHB p197

"INSTANT DEATH
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum."

For some reason reason I remember it being a variant. That was Wrong on my part there but the rest stands.

[Bjarkmundur]

There is no insta kill in 5e.
We might have maybe sorta agreed on a Crit Table at session 0 that maybe kinda was the cultprit of the instakill... maybe.


There IS insta-kill in 5e. If you take damage totaling more than your negative hit points then you die.
It was worse. Mechanically this is what happened:

Inflict Wound, 1st level spell slot.
Melee Spell Attack, Critical hit (5% chance)
Roll on the crit table, got near-maximum result: "Roll double damage dice, the target's maximum hit points is reduced by the same amount".
Rolled 6d10, result was 40. Barbarian's maximum hit points reduced to -4.


I don't understand the order of events in terms of 5e ...

Sorry, my fault. I wanted to keep the focus on "Always double check encounter CR" rather than recapping the narrative. But since you asked:

The Spined Devil took the McGuffin and flew out the window.
The wizard ran after him and jumped, landing on the devil's back.
Cultist's turn, he runs to the window and casts hold person on the Wizard as he and the spined devil are struggling mid-air. The Wizard fails the initial and second saving throw against the effect, which gives the Spined Devil a chance to throw him off his back uncontested. Wizard falls the the ground. Luckily he survived. The main problem is that now the Barbarian and Wizard are separated. The wizard assumes the Barbarian is okay, and runs after the Spined Devil.

....the Barbarian was not okay, and was pretty much dead the moment the Wizard hit the ground. xD

Spined Devil: Move, Dash, out the window.
Wizard: Cast Jump, jumps, lands on the Devil.
Cultist 1: Move, Hold Person, Wizard is Paralyzed.
Barbarian: Can't move, is under the effects of Command.
Wizard: Fails second Saving Throw.
Spined Devil: Throws the Wizard off his back, flies away. Wizard lands on the ground.
Cultist 1 & 2: Both cast Inflict Wounds on the Barbarian. One miss, one crit.


For some reason reason I remember it being a variant. That was Wrong on my part there but the rest stands.

Sadly, it doesn't matter. The crit table was was discussed and approved during session 0. Besides, the odds of a critical hit, followed by a result of 10 on a d12, followed by a result of above 36 on a roll of 6d10 is a low chance enough that we couldn't blame the crit table. It was just how the dice were rolled. If I would have reduced the difficulty of the encounter by half, maybe it would've been fine. But even then, we can't be sure, since it only took a single 1st level spell. There's no way of knowing that wouldn't have happened even in an easy encounter.

[stoutstien]

We might have maybe sorta agreed on a Crit Table at session 0 that maybe kinda was the cultprit of the instakill... maybe.


It was worse. Mechanically this is what happened:

Inflict Wound, 1st level spell slot.
Melee Spell Attack, Critical hit (5% chance)
Roll on the crit table, got near-maximum result: "Roll double damage dice, the target's maximum hit points is reduced by the same amount".
Rolled 6d10, result was 40. Barbarian's maximum hit points reduced to -4.



Sorry, my fault. I wanted to keep the focus on "Always double check encounter CR" rather than recapping the narrative. But since you asked:

The Spined Devil took the McGuffin and flew out the window.
The wizard ran after him and jumped, landing on the devil's back.
Cultist's turn, he runs to the window and casts hold person on the Wizard as he and the spined devil are struggling mid-air. The Wizard fails the initial and second saving throw against the effect, which gives the Spined Devil a chance to throw him off his back uncontested. Wizard falls the the ground. Luckily he survived. The main problem is that now the Barbarian and Wizard are separated. The wizard assumes the Barbarian is okay, and runs after the Spined Devil.

....the Barbarian was not okay, and was pretty much dead the moment the Wizard hit the ground. xD

Spined Devil: Move, Dash, out the window.
Wizard: Cast Jump, jumps, lands on the Devil.
Cultist 1: Move, Hold Person, Wizard is Paralyzed.
Barbarian: Can't move, is under the effects of Command.
Wizard: Fails second Saving Throw.
Spined Devil: Throws the Wizard off his back, flies away. Wizard lands on the ground.
Cultist 1 & 2: Both cast Inflict Wounds on the Barbarian. One miss, one crit.



Sadly, it doesn't matter. The crit table was was discussed and approved during session 0. Besides, the odds of a critical hit, followed by a result of 10 on a d12, followed by a result of above 36 on a roll of 6d10 is a low chance enough that we couldn't blame the crit table. It was just how the dice were rolled. If I would have reduced the difficulty of the encounter by half, maybe it would've been fine. But even then, we can't be sure, since it only took a single 1st level spell. There's no way of knowing that wouldn't have happened even in an easy encounter.

So the crit rule is the culprit for the intant death which is ok. I'm still curious on how the CR comes in. The players' tactics where bad on all counts and the CR rating wouldn't change the the power that crits have at low levels.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If you're serious when calling this a "mistake", it's one that is fixable. You can admit that you balanced the encounter poorly, the table can agree things happened differently (e.g. the characters suffer a setback but end up surviving).

If on the other hand it's understood in the group that character death is a possibility and balanced fights aren't guaranteed, what happened doesn't seem to be far out of line. Rolling in the open is commendable, not a mistake. It's pointless to pretend the dice and systems could spit out some unexpected result and then fudge it away when it would actually happen.

[Bjarkmundur]

If on the other hand it's understood in the group that character death is a possibility and balanced fights aren't guaranteed, what happened doesn't seem to be far out of line. Rolling in the open is commendable, not a mistake. It's pointless to pretend the dice and systems could spit out some unexpected result and then fudge it away when it would actually happen.

I share your point of view completely. I made my decisions, and I stuck to them. It's hard killing a character that you've grown to love, but it was the right thing to do. As the authority there has to be a certain amount of finality to my decisions. The moment I declared the result of anything that happened, it was done. The second I rolled a crit, I didn't know he would die. I just explained things as they happened.

- And that's a crit
- And that's a 10+2
- Roll double damage dice, and reduce the maximum health
- That's 40.

Maybe next session I'll make a habit of counting to 1.5 before declaring any results, just so I won't accidentally kill the fun by reading out-loud without thinking.

The moment I said "that's 40" I knew that if I would react in any other way than looking matter of factly at my player and paraphrasing "Your Hit Point Maximum is reduced by 40 points" my players would know I changed the result in their favor. Although it might have made that moment more enjoyable, it would negatively effect the rest of my campaign. The sense of challenge and danger would have been reduced to nothing, since my players could never un-learn how I handled that situation; "The DM makes sure we win".
A single character death for the benefit of all future sessions was well worth it.

I'm not saying I never discuss actions or rulings with my players, I do. But when it's just the act of rolling dice and looking up tables, there's not much to debate.

I'm glad that it was such a low-chance of a roll that killed him, since I am a firm believer that the only good reasons for a PC death is PC mistakes. The reason most acceptable after that is a 0.225% chance after three separate rolls, which was the case of this death.

That's also why the entire table was okay with it. It was a 0.225% chance. That's not a mistake, that's not imbalance, there's no one to blame. It's just what happened.

I will however, always always always make sure that I check the CR of an encounter when running a module. The encounter was 2 Cult Fanatics and 3 Spined Devils against two 3rd Level PCs. Even though my players would've done fine without the Crit, and even though the CR of the encounter was ultimately inconsequential, I still think It's something I should keep in mind. In most cases, a medium encounter played smart (read: in character) always feels more challenging to the player than a lazily run deadly encounter, just like two intense rounds of big numbers feel more fast-paced that a 9 round combat, even though both encounters would yield the same result.

TLDR: I stick with my decisions once they are made, and I'll always keep learning and growing for the benefit of my player's enjoyment of my game.

[Theodoxus]

This is one reason I don't play with crit tables, and if I'm forced to play with critical fumbles, I always play a halfling.

Not that crits don't happen and aren't deadly, but exacerbating the problem with added crap isn't fun. YMMV.

[Tanarii]

I will however, always always always make sure that I check the CR of an encounter when running a module.
This sentence seems to be your take-away.

Always a good idea if the players are expected to buy-in to the adventure sequence and battles aren't necessarily avoidable.

I've run modules many times in various editions, and always pay attention to recommended levels and number of characters. I've also run several conversions to 5e, and done convertions myself, mostly on the fly. Simple things like the assumptions about the ability of low level enemies (Kobolds, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs) to be one-shot, and to one-shot in return, can make a huge difference if you just carry over the number of enemies directly.

[HappyDaze]

- A Barbarian and a Wizard walk into a cultist ritual site.
- DM is using a module, and forgets to check the Encounter CR, and adjust it to only having 2 players.


Counterpoint: Player characters didn't think to hire/recruit additional help before going into a dangerous situation in a world where adventurers generally know that survival depends on traveling in packs of 4-6.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is one reason I don't play with crit tables, and if I'm forced to play with critical fumbles, I always play a halfling.

Not that crits don't happen and aren't deadly, but exacerbating the problem with added crap isn't fun. YMMV. My name is KorvinStarmast, and I endorse this message. :)

[Contrast]

- DM didn't think, rolled dice in the open.

I mean if you aren't prepared for your players to get brutally eviscerated by random chance, you probably shouldn't be using a critical hit table.


But yeah - assuming the barbarian wasn't a bearbarian, even if both cultists had hit with Inflict Wounds for totally average damage they would have presumably killed/almost killed him which given the wizard had removed themselves from the fight would have presumably resulted in a kill anyway.

[patchyman]

I found the initial post to be extremely funny, and I think every DM here has a story about how a mistake, bad call or missed rule ended up with **** hitting the fan.

Here’s mine. I had modified a Dungeon magazine adventure for my party. The adventure took place in Eberron and one of the characters was a member of House Tharask tasked with bringing in an outlaw for the bounty. Due to a poor series of rolls, the party has completely lost the trail, and stops by an inn to rest.

Meanwhile, the outlaw and his gang had taken over the inn, and were in delicate negotiations with two other gangs over a big score. The three gangs together were too powerful for the party, but the adventure gave several options to sabotage negotiations, ally with one gang over another or set up a sneak attack (if the party had realized the villains were there beforehand).

So the party burst in, not expecting their quarry to be present. Normally, this should not have been a problem, as the outlaw had never seen them before, and the other gangs had no reason to be hostile to them.

Did you catch what I forgot? The member of House Tharask, a Dragonmarked House specifically tasked with bounty hunting, had specified that their Dragon Mark extended over their face making it very obvious.

Suddenly, every criminal in the room has a reason to freak out and take out the lawman. I described a silence falling over the room, as everyone grabs their weapons but is unwilling to be the first to attack. I have everyone roll initiative to determine the order in which the act.

Unfortunately, the party jumps the gun and a Chaotic melee ensues in which the wizard is killed.

Still fun.

[GlenSmash!]

This is one reason I don't play with crit tables, and if I'm forced to play with critical fumbles, I always play a halfling.

Not that crits don't happen and aren't deadly, but exacerbating the problem with added crap isn't fun. YMMV.


My name is KorvinStarmast, and I endorse this message. :)


I mean if you aren't prepared for your players to get brutally eviscerated by random chance, you probably shouldn't be using a critical hit table.


But yeah - assuming the barbarian wasn't a bearbarian, even if both cultists had hit with Inflict Wounds for totally average damage they would have presumably killed/almost killed him which given the wizard had removed themselves from the fight would have presumably resulted in a kill anyway.

I'll hop in on this theme. 5e is notoriously PC friendly with encounter difficulty except at low levels, especially with crits involved.

If I was using a crit table I would start the came at at least 3-5 to try and make sure that PC instadeath was less likely to happen.

But I'm not likely to use the crit table as I dislike things that slow the game down.

[KorvinStarmast]

But I'm not likely to use the crit table as I dislike things that slow the game down. This also. We used some crit tables back in the 70's and 80's, but I eventually got tired of them and a reason for that was how it bogs down pace of play.

[Tanarii]

This also. We used some crit tables back in the 70's and 80's, but I eventually got tired of them and a reason for that was how it bogs down pace of play.
They're okay when they're basically a replacement for death saves, or just outright dying, when your HPs run out. That's how Warhamme uses them. And Forbidden Lands, for a more recent version.

When they suck is when they bypass hit points on a lucky roll.

[Demonslayer666]

Counterpoint: Player characters didn't think to hire/recruit additional help before going into a dangerous situation in a world where adventurers generally know that survival depends on traveling in packs of 4-6.

That's true for all party sizes since difficulty is based on the number of characters in the party. Characters do not know how many is needed to survive until they research their opponents, or research their DM. :smallsmile:

[HappyDaze]

That's true for all party sizes since difficulty is based on the number of characters in the party. Characters do not know how many is needed to survive until they research their opponents, or research their DM. :smallsmile:

That doesn't mean the encounters need to be tailored for the number of PCs. Yes, you can pitch softballs by always tailoring it to the party, but it's not necessary to do so. Sometimes a small party gets wiped and sometimes a large party can steamroll an encounter. That's not a bug.

[MaxWilson]

That doesn't mean the encounters need to be tailored for the number of PCs. Yes, you can pitch softballs by always tailoring it to the party, but it's not necessary to do so. Sometimes a small party gets wiped and sometimes a large party can steamroll an encounter. That's not a bug.

Depends mostly on what kind of experience the actual human beings sitting at the table are looking for. Are they looking for an immersive fantasy world which challenges their creativity and strategic skills, or do they just want escapism and attack/damage rolls that make them feel heroic?

What I don't get is why, in the latter case, the DM wouldn't just contrive a way to resurrect the Barbarian before the next adventure. Why not a friendly temple (or high-level wizard) which is willing to Raise the barbarian from the dead in exchange for a favor once he is raised? Or conversely, a post-death bargaining scene with a demon which is willing to Raise the barbarian from the dead and give him extra power in exchange for his soul and regular blood sacrifices? DM has lots of freedom in this case to come up with something interesting and escapist.

[Bjarkmundur]

What I don't get is why, in the latter case, the DM wouldn't just contrive a way to resurrect the Barbarian before the next adventure.

Don't beat me to the punchline ^^

They are friendly with the Emerald Enclave which can give then a casting of Reincarnation, and the Barbarian was best friends with Maxeene the talking draft horse which is more than willing to transport the body if asked.

I want it to be my player's idea to try to find a solution to this characters death. I will not hand this out on a silver platter, but if they start looking for solutions I'll give out hints that eventually lead to this or some other solution.

And of course they will have to pledge to the Emerald Enclave. I'll most likely be a contract of "do enough things for the Enclave to reach x renown. Then you can consider your dept payed".

I think it's a good lesson. It teaches my game has stakes and that they can do whatever they set their minds to. It encourages having allies and contacts and interacting with the setting. It tells my players that if they have a goal, and show the will to take steps towards it, there will always be a path laid out to them. It's just up to them to take the first step. This is an important lesson to teach. It was only last session that my Bard realized he could knock on any door and there would be a full-fledged NPC, with needs and wants and information to share. She tought it was pretty dope ^^

[MaxWilson]

I want it to be my player's idea to try to find a solution to this characters death. I will not hand this out on a silver platter, but if they start looking for solutions I'll give out hints that eventually lead to this or some other solution.

I recommend that you do something in this case to indicate to the players that the Barbarian's story is not necessarily over, even if it's something as simple giving the Barbarian a post-death narrative as a ghost who can see things but not touch or act, and giving them the choice between "embracing the light" (i.e. go to the afterlife, won't be resurrected) or remaining in play.

You probably also want to give the Barbarian some way to communicate to the living PCs, either directly in play as a ghost voice or at least in dreams.

[Talsin]

...They are friendly with the Emerald Enclave which can give then a casting of Reincarnation, and the Barbarian was best friends with Maxeene the talking draft horse which is more than willing to transport the body if asked....

Look at that horse. That horse is amazing!
I bet it tastes just like raisins.

[Theodoxus]

Depends mostly on what kind of experience the actual human beings sitting at the table are looking for. Are they looking for an immersive fantasy world which challenges their creativity and strategic skills, or do they just want escapism and attack/damage rolls that make them feel heroic?

What I don't get is why, in the latter case, the DM wouldn't just contrive a way to resurrect the Barbarian before the next adventure. Why not a friendly temple (or high-level wizard) which is willing to Raise the barbarian from the dead in exchange for a favor once he is raised? Or conversely, a post-death bargaining scene with a demon which is willing to Raise the barbarian from the dead and give him extra power in exchange for his soul and regular blood sacrifices? DM has lots of freedom in this case to come up with something interesting and escapist.

Heh, I ran into this, this last weekend. Started a new campaign, translating Night Below from 2E to 5E. Didn't change anything in the first ambush, just translated THACO into AC and 16 Str to +3 (from +1). The adventure specifically spells out "This campaign is built for a larger party, 6-8 is ideal, and if you have fewer, either let your players hire henchmen (preferably fighter types) or let them play two characters. If the players fall, don't let it be a party kill, but have the bandits knock them out, rob them, and tie them up next to a tree."

Yeah, I didn't take ANY of that advice... 3 players, Life Cleric, Bard and Fighter, 1st level, rolled stats, but none got anything amazing, I think 16s were the highest, after racial bonuses. The bandits got a couple of lucky crits, and the cleric burned his two slots healing the fighter, who dropped twice (encounter specifies targeting armored non-casters first). Had one bandit grab the mcguffin and run, others took the bard down next, who made his death saves. Fighter failed his three, leaving the cleric alone, with the only combat cantrip being Word of Radiance (he purposefully didn't take a ranged cantrip for some reason he didn't explain.)

Cleric goes into the woods to pick up the longbow dropped by an archer and starts taking pot shots at the fleeing bandit, without proficiency, and at long range. He'd run 30' up, shoot, miss, etc. while the bandit was double moving for 60'. Eventually, the cleric got a lucky shot, rolling 14 and 16 for his disad, hitting the bandit and putting it down.

End of the encounter, they scrounged ~6 gold, a dead fighter, 5 sets of studded leather, 4 clubs, a pair of longbows and "masterwork" great club (deals 1d10). Oh, and the mcguffin...

Players griped for only getting 90xp for the encounter...

[Demonslayer666]

That doesn't mean the encounters need to be tailored for the number of PCs. Yes, you can pitch softballs by always tailoring it to the party, but it's not necessary to do so.
Difficulty should most certainly be taken into consideration when designing, and presenting encounters to your players. You just alluded that you disliked softballs...so difficulty is important to you. And I never said you should take it easy on the players.


Sometimes a small party gets wiped and sometimes a large party can steamroll an encounter. That's not a bug.
And small parties can steamroll and large parties can get wiped. The difficulty of the encounter is the key deciding factor.

The players didn't make the encounter more difficult by only having a couple players. The DM made it more difficult by not changing the encounter.

Hopefully it was telegraphed to the players before hand. If it was and they didn't heed the warning, then it's on the players, and they should have gotten help. I think that most games are about the players not needing to get help outside the party, the focus is on the party's capabilities.

[Tanarii]

The players didn't make the encounter more difficult by only having a couple players. The DM made it more difficult by not changing the encounter.

Depends entirely on if you're runninng a one party tailored campaign, a multi-party player pickup sandbox, or AL, or something else

What you said is true in the first case, false and back to front in the second case, true in AL adventures which specify to modify for number or players and false for those that don't, and "it depends" for other cases.

In other words, your truism isnt remotely universally true. But neither is the opposite.

[Demonslayer666]

Depends entirely on if you're runninng a one party tailored campaign, a multi-party player pickup sandbox, or AL, or something else

What you said is true in the first case, false and back to front in the second case, true in AL adventures which specify to modify for number or players and false for those that don't, and "it depends" for other cases.

In other words, your truism isnt remotely universally true. But neither is the opposite.


The part that you quoted from my post was in reference to this example and was not intended as a universal truth. I was referencing what happened.
"DM is using a module, and forgets to check the Encounter CR, and adjust it to only having 2 players."


Sorry if that wasn't clear as to what I was referencing.