Castle and Crusades question

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I have been seriously considering buying this game for a while now, and I just have one question- Both the second and third printing are up on amazon, but the 2nd is a bit cheaper.

Is there a significant difference between the two? I just am not sure which to order. Thanks in advance.

[Matthew]

The way I hear it, there's no real difference beyond the editing and I think the pages are glossy or something. Anyway, this same question came up at Dragonsfoot: Castles and Crusades Third Printing (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25520). There's probably a Thread over on the Troll Lord Forums (http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/index.php) as well.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Thank you very much. :)

[Matthew]

No problem. Have you taken a look at the Quick Start Rules or are you going in blind?

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

No problem. Have you taken a look at the Quick Start Rules or are you going in blind?

Er, sort of blind- I like the philosophy, and everything I've read on it sounds good- do you have any suggestion one way or another?

[RamrodTheWizard]

I picked up the games and I liked some alot of the thematic content, but some of the supposed rules-light system were just over-complicated. Maybe I took too many of my 3rd edition notions,

[Matthew]

Well, I highly recommend you check out the Castles & Crusades Quick Start Rules (http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/ccqs.html) before you commit to purchasing the Player's Handbook, as that will give you a pretty good idea of how the game works mechanically. They only present four Classes and three Races, but it's enough to be going on with.

I like Castles & Crusades a lot. That said, there are things about it I don't like. The thing that most gives the old school community cause for complaint, as far as I can tell, is the idea of Primary and Secondary Attributes, which is essentially a formalised way of dealing with things that 3e would consider Skill Checks.

Basically, when you use a Primary Attribute, the average DC is 12, but when you use a Secondary Attribute the average DC is 18.

Example: Aldros (Level Three Fighter) has Strength as his Primary Attribute. He has a Strength of 15, which translates as a +1 Bonus. He attempts to use his Strength to open a heavy door. The Castle Keeper judges this to be an average task and so there is no difficulty modifier. Aldros adds his Level to the roll, which makes for 1D20+4 or a 65% chance of success.

I find this a little clunky. It's not bad, but I would prefer to set the initial difficulty without regard for Primary and Secondary Attributes, or simply roleplay out the situation without need for a roll at all. Especially in cases similar to the one I cited above, I don't think percentage chances are a good way to determine every task. Of course, I could just ignore it in that situation.

[RamrodTheWizard]

Well, I highly recommend you check out the Castles & Crusades Quick Start Rules (http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/ccqs.html) before you commit to purchasing the Player's Handbook, as that will give you a pretty good idea of how the game works mechanically. They only present four Classes and three Races, but it's enough to be going on with.

I like Castles & Crusades a lot. That said, there are things about it I don't like. The thing that most gives the old school community cause for complaint, as far as I can tell, is the idea of Primary and Secondary Attributes, which is essentially a formalised way of dealing with things that 3e would consider Skill Checks.

Basically, when you use a Primary Attribute, the average DC is 12, but when you use a Secondary Attribute the average DC is 18.

Example: Aldros (Level Three Fighter) has Strength as his Primary Attribute. He has a Strength of 15, which translates as a +1 Bonus. He attempts to use his Strength to open a heavy door. The Castle Keeper judges this to be an average task and so there is no difficulty modifier. Aldros adds his Level to the roll, which makes for 1D20+4 or a 65% chance of success.

I find this a little clunky. It's not bad, but I would prefer to set the initial difficulty without regard for Primary and Secondary Attributes, or simply roleplay out the situation without need for a roll at all. Especially in the above case, I don't think percentage chances are a good way to determine every task.

I don't like thier bonus system, the D20 version is simple and easy to remember. I also dislike the way the DC system works, the concept is cool, but the 12/16 bases are annoying. I like the whole, base ten and add modifiers system. I may try it again, though heavily houseruled, which the system is very very open to.

[Matthew]

I don't like thier bonus system, the D20 version is simple and easy to remember.

You mean the way Attributes convert to Bonuses and Penalties? It's a modified version of the Basic Dungeons & Dragons Attribute Tables. I much prefer it to the D20 System, but overall I prefer:

{table=head]Attribute|Modifier


0 |
-|


1|
-5|


2|
-4|


3|
-3|


4-5|
-2|


6-8|
-1|


9-12|
0|


13-15|
+1|


16-17|
+2|


18|
+3|


19|
+4|


20|
+5|


21|
+6|


22|
+7|


23|
+8|


24|
+9|


25|
+10
[/table]



I also dislike the way the DC system works, the concept is cool, but the 12/16 bases are annoying. I like the whole, base ten and add modifiers system. I may try it again, though heavily houseruled, which the system is very very open to.

As I say, the 12/18 system I am not too struck on. Still, it wouldn't be too hard to drop the concept.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Ah, thanks for the quick start rules- after looking at them, I think I'll be ok. :)

It looks like fun, now I just have to convince my group to try it out...

[Matthew]

No problem. There are a few other freebies knocking about, including the short Adventure Modules A Lion in the Ropes (http://www.trolllord.com/files/cclion.pdf) and The Rising Knight (http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/8000C.html). I can't speak to their quality, as I haven't had time to play through them.
At RPGNow you can also download a couple of Campaign Expansions: Class Options and Skills for Yggsburgh (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=29239&it=1&filters=0_0_10126) and Deities of the Karboskian Marches (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=28514&it=1&filters=0_0_10126). I had some problems downloading them, but was eventually able to do so from the main menu.
There are also a whole bunch of things at the Castles & Crusades Player Site (http://cncplayer.net/) and a few at Judge's Guild (http://www.judgesguild.com/). In particular, the Adventure Modules The House of Rogat Demazien (http://www.judgesguild.com/fans/rogat_demazien.pdf), The Garden of Al-astorion (http://www.judgesguild.com/fans/al-astorion_cc.pdf) and Systema Tartarobasis (http://cncplayer.net/download/Systema_Tartarobasis.pdf) were recommended to me.

Good luck convincing your group to play!

[Edit] I forgot to add this version of the Monsters Book (http://trolllord.com/files/monsters.pdf).

You can also find various useful links stickied at Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9589&start=0) and Troll Lord Games (http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=36&mforum=trolllordgames)