Is necromancy even worth it? - Questions on wizard subclasses

[OverDemon]

So, a brief introduction. It could be said that I'm a "journeyman" when it comes to D&D. I know the basic rules and have played several sessions on different characters but have yet to get above level 7 with any. I've only played the fifth edition and have mostly played Adventure League.

So, I started a Tiefling Wizard not so long ago and have had fun enough with that. I recently hit level 5 with my Tiefling Wizard in AL and since it's the last chance to remake my character, I started thinking and doubting. So far I had planned to make my character a necromancer, hoping I would be able to handle the logistics of having an undead force, however, I started thinking into the future and became uncertain about how effective necromancy was in the long run?

To my knowledge, there are 2 "real" spells to summon undead: Animate Dead and Create Undead. You get Skeletons or Zombies with Animate Dead and Ghouls, Ghasts, Wights or Mummies with Create Undead. Sure, they last 24 hours and you don't need to concentrate on the spells, but is a CR 1/4, 1, 2 or 3 monster really worth it as you gain higher and higher levels and gain better spells? What difference do 30 skeletons or 3 ghouls do at level 11? I mean, with a 8th level spell you can get 2 Wights (CR 3) OR you can summon a god-damn fortress for 7 days with the Mighty Fortress spell. That doesn't really seem to compare.


https://i.imgur.com/na9P4Cv.png

Now, I've looked around the net and there seems to be the opinion that Necromancy (or summoning in general) has gotten really cut in 5e. So I wonder if, besides the flavor and RP, is necromancy or summoning (elementals/demons...) good... very situational... or even bad?

And if the latter is the case, what should a wizard be doing and what wizard schools are good? I know Divination is considered powerful, but it seems kinda boring with the entire school seeming dedicated to ensuring your spells take effect and not much more. Illusion can be game-changing with its level 14, but it can also be very much up for interpretation, and with a different DM each time in AL I'm not sure how promising it is?

Or perhaps I have the wrong idea and specialization isn't really a thing in 5e and my dream of a summoner needs to be replaced with a more practical all-around wizard. And what school is that?

Thank you in advance for the advice, tips and such. I appreciate any help.

[Blood of Gaea]

I mean, assuming you're willing to harvest a few hapless victims, each Wight can control twelve zombies. So it's two wights and twenty-four zombies vs. a fortress.

The fortress is strong, but immobile, and cannot take actions.

The question to if necromancers are good basically comes down to how many pieces on the table your party is willing to put up with, and how much AoE your enemies are tossing around.

[Damon_Tor]

I mean, the fortress is cool, I guess. It's visually impressive, but what is it actually good for? It's a Magnificent Mansion but it can be invaded: it comes with walls enemies could climb or knock down, while the Mansion is tucked into an extra-dimensional space only you and your pals can enter. The castle is better if you really want to slap your d*** on the table and really show some village of yokels what you're capable of, but apart from the roleplay value... why? You can use it to defend a pass or something, if you've got the forces to man the walls (some skeleton archers maybe? skeletons manning catapults created by fabricate?) but how often does that situation present itself?

Your minions though, you can actually, you know, bring them into dungeons with you. Whether that's as valuable as keeping those slots for uses of Mirage Arcane or Fireball or Wall of Force or whatever, well that's another matter.

[OverDemon]

I mean, the fortress is cool, I guess. It's visually impressive, but what is it actually good for? It's a Magnificent Mansion but it can be invaded: it comes with walls enemies could climb or knock down, while the Mansion is tucked into an extra-dimensional space only you and your pals can enter. The castle is better if you really want to slap your d*** on the table and really show some village of yokels what you're capable of, but apart from the roleplay value... why? You can use it to defend a pass or something, if you've got the forces to man the walls (some skeleton archers maybe? skeletons manning catapults created by fabricate?) but how often does that situation present itself?

Your minions though, you can actually, you know, bring them into dungeons with you. Whether that's as valuable as keeping those slots for uses of Mirage Arcane or Fireball or Wall of Force or whatever, well that's another matter.

The fortress isn't really what I intended to focus on with this post, it was meant to be more of an example of what might be perceived as an imbalance between spells. Meaning: If an 8th level spell allowed you to conjure a fortress for 7 days, maybe getting 2 Wights for 24 hours doesn't measure up.

Really, what I was interested in with this post was whether necromancy and summoning were worthwhile in 5e and how to potentially make it work?

I've never played 3.5 edition, but I've seen that there's a spell there called Create Greater Undead that would summon a CR 11 creature at top level, compared to the handful of CR 3 creatures we get in 5e.

And, if it isn't worthwhile or doesn't work, then if anyone had suggestions about where I then should look for a wizard build?

[JackPhoenix]

The fortress isn't really what I intended to focus on with this post, it was meant to be more of an example of what might be perceived as an imbalance between spells. Meaning: If an 8th level spell allowed you to conjure a fortress for 7 days, maybe getting 2 Wights for 24 hours doesn't measure up.

Really, what I was interested in with this post was whether necromancy and summoning were worthwhile in 5e and how to potentially make it work?

I've never played 3.5 edition, but I've seen that there's a spell there called Create Greater Undead that would summon a CR 11 creature at top level, compared to the handful of CR 3 creatures we get in 5e.

And, if it isn't worthwhile or doesn't work, then if anyone had suggestions about where I then should look for a wizard build?

Difference is, in 3.5, that CR11 creature was more or less useless at level 20 (unless it got spells or some special ability). In 5e, even CR 1/4 skeletons are useful if you get enough. 5e AC values don't go to values unhittable for "non-level appropriate" enemies (TO shennanigans available to PCs non-withstanding), and damage reduction works differently, so even no-magical shortbow isn't entirely useless (yes, there are few things immune to non-magical weapons, but it's not as bad as 3.5 where DR10+ was common. Even standard skeletons and zombies had DR 5, so you had to do at least 6 damage (with 1d6 weapon) to do any damage at all).

Necromancer improves both damage and durability of his minions, and while it's not enough to go toe-to-toe with ancient dragons, it's enough to survive the odd Fireball when they are clumped enough to present a good target. Zombies, while less effective than skeletons damage-wise (ranged weapons allow them to focus fire better and the distance keeps them safe-ish), are surprisingly durable even without the buff, and if you can armor them, can serve as means of crowd control by grappling or simply being in the way, as well as literal meat shields. And if you get paladin with Crusader's Mantle, it applies to every undead you have, vastly increasing its value compared to usual 3-4 characters.

Finger of Death can give you unlimited, maintenance-less zombies that benefit from necromancer buffs. Both of those wights should also have 12 zombies of their own, saving you action economy required to command your horde.

AL in particular doesn't handle minions well, as GMs are forced to use pre-existing adventurers and can't add ways to counter them. The other side of the coin is that hordes of minions slow down the game, which may make you unpopular amongst other players in AL.

[MrStabby]

So AC doesn't scale the way it used to and more lower level enemies remain a threat for longer so it is a bit better than it looks.

This is further enhanced by the enemies that a horde of undead can help with are still a threat to you.

Undead can be put to work outside of combat - free Labour. Furthermore you don't need to keep control of them for them to be useful. They are like a minefield, sometimes denying an area to everyone is a strategically sound choice.

On a practical perspective it is often less good. It slows play down at the table and adds bookkeeping not just for you, but for everyone else who wants to track what's happening. This means you shouldn't expect too many favours from the DM or other players to keep your minions alive.

Fireballs, destroy undead, destructive wave... how long will they actually last? Tight timescales mean you need to transport your army. Hostile populations mean you may want to leave them behind.

Necromancy is fine, if your party are on board with it. As a specialist no, you will need more tricks. However it is stupidly easy to be best at everything as a wizard so not real issue there.

[JellyPooga]

The thing with being a Necromancer is that your main asset (i.e. your minions) are really really replaceable. So while they might not be individually effective, as a mob they can bring some serious pain and all it takes is a spell or two out of your daily allowance (and some corpses..but they should be relatively plentiful!) to replensish them. Yeah, Create Undead isn't so hot, given its spell level, but if you equip and buff those "lieutenants", they too can remain competetive at higher levels.

It's worth bearing in mind that raising undead isn't restricted to human corpses and that the undead templates overlap without replacing the physical racial abilities of the target; there's definitely some interesting combinations of humanoid+template (without thinking too hard, or looking anything up, Aaracockra flying Zombies could be such...please correct me if I'm mistaken).

[BlueHydra]

Summon the fortress and populate it with your undead.

[Sindal]

I would say it is, really.

Necromancy has alot of 'uses'.

[JackPhoenix]

It's worth bearing in mind that raising undead isn't restricted to human corpses and that the undead templates overlap without replacing the physical racial abilities of the target; there's definitely some interesting combinations of humanoid+template (without thinking too hard, or looking anything up, Aaracockra flying Zombies could be such...please correct me if I'm mistaken).

You are. There are no templates, there's basic skeleton and zombie, and that's what you get.

[NNescio]

The fortress isn't really what I intended to focus on with this post, it was meant to be more of an example of what might be perceived as an imbalance between spells. Meaning: If an 8th level spell allowed you to conjure a fortress for 7 days, maybe getting 2 Wights for 24 hours doesn't measure up.

You have 8th level spells, you set up a Demiplane and stuff it full with uncontrolled undead. Or controlled zombies via Finger of Death.

Cast Demiplane later to unleash your undead horde.

At high levels of optimization (assuming no infinite Sim-Wish-Sim loop), this is a useful contingency plan even for non-Necromancer wizards because undead can still function in an AMF.




Really, what I was interested in with this post was whether necromancy and summoning were worthwhile in 5e and how to potentially make it work?

Druid summons are brokenly powerful (even without Pixies) unless the DM deliberately screws you over. More so on a Shepard chassis. Higher level casters with Planar Binding can have access to long-term minions (Druid says hello to Hag covens), and Wizards get to custom-craft minions for Planar Binding (or just use constructs that default to "loyal to creator") via True Polymorph.

Though yeah, basic necro minions can be a bit annoying to lug around and can potentially draw the ire of NPCs. They can be made more useful though in a high magic setting, as they can also attune to magic items (unless one interpret the "focus" needed in a certain way). Still, even without magic items, skeleton archers can still contribute a lot in combat with sheer volume of fire, and the extra object/environment interactions can prove handy. (less so in larger party because of cramped spaces and the DM annoyance of adjudicating the actions/movement of large quantity of creatures. But they are invaluable in smaller-than-standard parties.)



I've never played 3.5 edition, but I've seen that there's a spell there called Create Greater Undead that would summon a CR 11 creature at top level, compared to the handful of CR 3 creatures we get in 5e.

Command Undead. Use Feeblemind to nuke its Intelligence if it's too high for perma-control. Use Divination spells (e.g. play 20 questions with CoP) to locate the undead you want.

This can get ridiculous if you gain control of a spawn-creating undead, like a vampire.



And, if it isn't worthwhile or doesn't work, then if anyone had suggestions about where I then should look for a wizard build?

Summons are a thing. Animate Object is a thing. Planar Binding is a thing. True Polymorph is a thing (cast it on a Sim if you want a higher CR minion). Shapechange (e.g. Shadow Dragon) is a thing. Wish is a thing (useful for setting up your custom Binding chamber). At lower levels even the Familiar can be useful via Help action (or as a vehicle for Dragon's Breath). All of these tricks can be used on top of necromancy for more varied minions.

Basically, all of the high-op caster tricks (any full caster, really) involve minionmancy in some way.

[MaxWilson]

The fortress isn't really what I intended to focus on with this post, it was meant to be more of an example of what might be perceived as an imbalance between spells. Meaning: If an 8th level spell allowed you to conjure a fortress for 7 days, maybe getting 2 Wights for 24 hours doesn't measure up.

Nitpick: with that 8th level spell slot, you're getting 2 permanently Turbo-charged wights which are automatically under your control for 24 hours. That gives you plenty of time to e.g. Geas them and Mass Suggestion them for the long term, if you care to do so. Just make sure you know how (Mass) Suggestion works at your DM's table and what kinds of suggestions are valid--the PHB implies that it can be an ongoing action which is as extreme as getting a knight to give away his horse, but does it also let you Suggest things like "enlist in the army?" (Or join this mercenary army, of which I happen to be the commanding officer.)

Otherwise, at high level you'd want to largely abandon necromancy (except for your one permanent minion and any Finger of Death zombies you happen to have) in favor of Simulacrum and Conjure Elemental/Summon Greater Demon/True Polymorph/Gate + Planar Binding.

[Sception]

In 3.5 skeleton and zombie were templates that could be applies to near about any monster maintaining a variety of the base forms stats, attacks, and abilities. As were skeleton & zombie dragons, from the dragon book, which replaced the skeleton & zombie templates when casting 'animate dead' on dragon corpses to maintain even more draconic features. With the right corpses, and true polymorph guaranteed access to the right corpses, animate dead stayed not just relevant but powerful all the way into epic levels.

Beyond that, the 'summon undead' spell line let you summon temporary shadows, which could create permanent shadows, that you could control with command undead, which coyld then create arbitrarily more shadows under your shadow's control. These shadows, accessible at level 9, are immune to normal physical damage and target touch AC to deal strength damage, making them an extremely relevant combat threat at level 20, even if you aren't abusing the spawning mechanics to control an arbitrarily large shadowpocalypse.

Create greater undead eventually lets you make wraiths and spectres, which, like shadows, are ethereal undead targeting touch AC, again making them reasonably threatening even against very high level monsters.

Despite all the talk of 'bounded accuracy', the same is not the case in 5e. Skeletons are great when you get them at level 5, even better with the necromancer buff at level 6, and then slowly fade out in utility over tge next several levels. By the early teens they're not really worth the hassle of dragging around. And none of the create undead monsters are really worth bothering with by the time you can make them.

To be fair, neither were the create undead monsters in 3.5, unless you were abusing wight spawning, but in 3.5 animate dead, the summon undead spell line, and create greater undead all meant undead pet strategies were highly effevtive from level 1 all the way into epic levels.

In 5e skeletons don't scale, summon undead doesn't exist, create undead can't create ethereals, and even if it could they aren't immune to non-magic damage and touch AC doesn't exist so they wouldn't stay good into high levels anyway.

Basically, in 5e necromancy is a very effective low to mid level strategy but does not scale into high levels. Still, that's better than 4e, where necromancy just straight up didn't exist. And honestly, ime most campaigns putter out around the time animate dead stops being useful anyway. Nearly all of the big first party adventure books stop around level 10. Even the recent descent into avernus campaign, which, without spoiling anything, is absolutely an epic tier campaign in concept, only goes to 12 or 13. If your game isn't going to go past that, then skeletons with bows should never stop being an effective use of third level spell slots.

But if the campaign does run past that then you should just retire your necromancer & roll something else, because animate dead is a waste of time at that point, and nothing steps in to fill the gap. Higher level necromancy is a meager handful of almost universally bad spells. Even the one or two decent high level nevromancy spells, like magic jar, don't benefit from your school features, so they're better cast by wizards of other specialties.

Magic jar, for instance, is spectacular in a diviner's spellbook, but for a necromancer it's mostly just a very fancy way to get yourself killed.

I guess that still works out well enough though, as you get magic jar at about the level you'd want to stop playing a necromancer anyway.

[strangebloke]

The utility of necromancy depends a lot on several factors. It's really important to establish how things are handled.

Socially, is your party ok with necromancy? Is your DM okay with having dozens of minions? Is the party okay with all the time you'll be monopolizing?

How complex can your standing orders be? If they're allowed to be very complex, skeletons can do obscenely obnoxious things like standing in a choke point and taking the Dodge action. Skeletons can spread out to fill an area so that aoe is weaker. Skeletons can be ordered to listen to teammates in the event of your incapacitation.

How easy is it too maintain control over groups of skeletons from day to day? Can you reliably get them to the field of battle? Will everyone and their mother try to linch you when it becomes clear what you're doing? Can broken skeletons be "repaired" and reanimated? If you're only creating one skeleton, animate dead is a weak spell but if you're controlling four it's really really good.

How easy is it too improve your skeletons? Can you give them better armor? Can you use inspiring leader on them? Can you give them bows?

With a permissive DM, necromancy becomes incredibly powerful if you invest in it as a strategy. It's super efficient DPR and tanking, especially on more open maps. They're great for finding traps. You've effectively got an army of free, high-morale hirelings. A skeleton might only be cr 1/4 but if you give them 15 extra hp and give extra AC they're suddenly very annoying for your enemies to deal with.

With a less permissive DM, or in a campaign where undead are impractical for Ooc reasons or structural reasons, undead basically won't see play at all.

[sithlordnergal]

So, as an AL player, I find Necromancers run into the same issue Druids with Conjure Animals and Wizards with Animate Objects run into at higher tiers: The attacks from your undead aren't magical and do nothing, and what you're facing tend to have AoEs that can instantly kill most creatures with less then 40 hp.

Now, before the most recent rule change that limits how many magic items you can own, this could be circumvented by giving all of your skeletons +1 Shortbows. But now you can't because you can only own so many magic items.

And since you can't raise things like Zombie Beholders with standard spells, you're kind of stuck with undead that can't do anything because they won't do damage due to lacking magical attacks, and they can't survive an attack cause they lack the hp.

EDIT: Also, some DMs for AL don't allow you to bring your undead hoard to their tables without proper documentation. So unless you mark down when, where, and how many undead you create/lose on your log sheets, you might go into an adventure alone with no undead

[MaxWilson]

Despite all the talk of 'bounded accuracy', the same is not the case in 5e. Skeletons are great when you get them at level 5, even better with the necromancer buff at level 6, and then slowly fade out in utility over tge next several levels. By the early teens they're not really worth the hassle of dragging around.

What an astonishing remark. Skeletons never cease to be a good, no-concentration use of your bonus action, if you're fighting MM-style monsters.

Say a 13th level Necromancer and his party are in a fight with a beholder. If the Necromancer has spent a 5th and a 4th level slot on Animate Dead, he's got 14 skeletons doing an average of 53.9 HP of damage to the AC 18 beholder every round with his bonus action. A Spiritual Weapon VI would only be doing 12.7 damage on a no-concentration bonus action. A Dex 20 Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert with a +1 weapon would be doing 43.6 damage with a full action! The skeletons are still very relevant even at level 13.

Skeletons would cease to be relevant if you were fighting only enemies of AC 23+, but that just doesn't happen in 5E unless your DM is using lots of spellcasting monsters spamming Shield/etc.

[Dork_Forge]

What an astonishing remark. Skeletons never cease to be a good, no-concentration use of your bonus action, if you're fighting MM-style monsters.

Say a 13th level Necromancer and his party are in a fight with a beholder. If the Necromancer has spent a 5th and a 4th level slot on Animate Dead, he's got 14 skeletons doing an average of 53.9 HP of damage to the AC 18 beholder every round with his bonus action. A Spiritual Weapon VI would only be doing 12.7 damage on a no-concentration bonus action. A Dex 20 Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert with a +1 weapon would be doing 43.6 damage with a full action! The skeletons are still very relevant even at level 13.

Skeletons would cease to be relevant if you were fighting only enemies of AC 23+, but that just doesn't happen in 5E unless your DM is using lots of spellcasting monsters spamming Shield/etc.

Not disputing you, I'm just not following some of your math here. Do you mean Spiritual Weapon upcast at 6th level? Wouldn't that be an average of around 20 damage? Likewise the Sharpshooter would be doing 48 damage before dice are factored into it, are you accounting for miss chance or something?

[JellyPooga]

You are. There are no templates, there's basic skeleton and zombie, and that's what you get.

I'm AFB at the moment and the SRD doesn't have it, but there's a template for both Skeleton and Zombie in the DMG (or is the MM? I forget. Either way, it's in a section RE:NPCs as I recall) and Animate Dead says it raises a humanoid corpse as a skeleton or zombie, not "human skeleton or zombie". If those templates were not intended to be used for non-human undead (and remember that minions are NPCs and should likely fall under the rules used for NPCs), I don't know what they're for.

Granted, you can't assume a GM is willing to use those templates and further, any specific trait that might be offered by a given race is dependent on finding a corpse of the relevant race. That said, I can't see any reason why a GM would be averse to using those rules. It's worth bearing in mind that Animate Dead isn't going to be raising Beholder Zombies or Ogre Skeletons, or any other creature that will significantly alter the CR of the animated dead; after all, being dead does have its limitations :smallwink:

House rule? Possibly. Variant rule? Not sure. A rule that is likely to be accepted at, I'm guessing, a lot of tables? I'm verging on the positive side of that scale. Ask your GM? Can't hurt to ask, right?

[Sigreid]

So, does it being AL affect anything? Seems to me that necoromancers excel when you can set them up over a long term and that AL doesn't really lend it'self to things like setting up a demi plain full of uncontrolled undead or permanently binding a mummy lord.

[MaxWilson]

Not disputing you, I'm just not following some of your math here. Do you mean Spiritual Weapon upcast at 6th level? Wouldn't that be an average of around 20 damage? Likewise the Sharpshooter would be doing 48 damage before dice are factored into it, are you accounting for miss chance or something?

Yes. A comparison which doesn't account for miss chance is useless unless all options have the same miss chance, and in this case we're trying to evaluate how "useless" skeletons are against high-CR monsters, given that they only have +4 to-hit.

And yep, Spiritual Weapon VI = upcast to 6th level, so 3d8+5 (assuming 20 Wisdom). You'll hit on an 8 or higher, and crit 5% of the time, so the average damage is 3*4.5*0.05 + (3*4.5+5)*0.65 = 12.7 DPR.

For Sharpshooter, I'm counting the bonus action + full action (4 total attacks at +8 to-hit, for d6+16 damage per hit, because +5 (Dex) +5 (proficiency) +2 (Archery style) +1 (magic weapon) -5 (Sharpshooter bonus damage) = +8 to-hit).

Are there any further questions?


So, does it being AL affect anything? Seems to me that necoromancers excel when you can set them up over a long term and that AL doesn't really lend it'self to things like setting up a demi plain full of uncontrolled undead or permanently binding a mummy lord.

In AL, doing anything remotely like that would be massive overkill unless you're fighting full-strength Tiamat. : - D

[Dork_Forge]

Yes. A comparison which doesn't account for miss chance is useless unless all options have the same miss chance, and in this case we're trying to evaluate how "useless" skeletons are against high-CR monsters, given that they only have +4 to-hit.

And yep, Spiritual Weapon VI = upcast to 6th level, so 3d8+5 (assuming 20 Wisdom). You'll hit on an 8 or higher, and crit 5% of the time, so the average damage is 3*4.5*0.05 + (3*4.5+5)*0.65 = 12.7 DPR.

For Sharpshooter, I'm counting the bonus action + full action (4 total attacks at +8 to-hit, for d6+16 damage per hit, because +5 (Dex) +5 (proficiency) +2 (Archery style) +1 (magic weapon) -5 (Sharpshooter bonus damage) = +8 to-hit).

Are there any further questions?



In AL, doing anything remotely like that would be massive overkill unless you're fighting full-strength Tiamat. : - D

Apologies if I came off as hostile in anyway, I was just curious how you were working these things out as I've never really been one for these kinds of statistics and you were just posting out of context numbers.

It looks like you're using Fighter for the base of the Sharpshooter build, shouldn't you include maneuver's in the calculation? Battlemaster makes the most sense (and is probably the most common) Fighter subclass for this build, and if the other two comparisons are utilising some of their highest level resources then it would be safe to assume that the Fighter would also be doing so (especially as a SR class). Besides Action Surge being highly likely, a Battlemaster that misses can likely turn it into a hit and stack additional damage/conditions on attacks that already hit.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm AFB at the moment and the SRD doesn't have it, but there's a template for both Skeleton and Zombie in the DMG (or is the MM? I forget. Either way, it's in a section RE:NPCs as I recall) and Animate Dead says it raises a humanoid corpse as a skeleton or zombie, not "human skeleton or zombie". If those templates were not intended to be used for non-human undead (and remember that minions are NPCs and should likely fall under the rules used for NPCs), I don't know what they're for.

MM undead aren't "human skeleton or zombie". They are skeleton and zombie. You'll get the same from dwarf, human, orc, or, funnily enough, a halfling. Those DMG "templates" aren't templates, but NPC "races" to apply to MM NPC stats, in case the GM wants to throw zombie knights or skeleton assassins at his group. They are meant to replace racial traits, not to add on them.

[Damon_Tor]

It's worth noting that skeletons are capable of performing complex tasks despite their lowish intelligence: the example of operating seige equipment is given, but presumably any task of similar complexity is on the table. And the nice thing about skeletons is they have no biology to worry about: you can remove whatever limbs are required for your scheme without worrying about it, so you could build yourself some kind of eldritch machine using skeletons as actuators.

[JellyPooga]

MM undead aren't "human skeleton or zombie". They are skeleton and zombie. You'll get the same from dwarf, human, orc, or, funnily enough, a halfling. Those DMG "templates" aren't templates, but NPC "races" to apply to MM NPC stats, in case the GM wants to throw zombie knights or skeleton assassins at his group. They are meant to replace racial traits, not to add on them.

Are they specifically for the MM NPC stat blocks, or are they applicable to NPCs in general? Having looked it up, I see nothing there about the templates being restrictive and the MM entry for skeletons specifically calls out that not all skeletons are of humans (obviously). An animated skeleton (by the spell) is an NPC Skeleton (no more specification than that) and the stats for any such skeletons are at the discretion of the GM (specifically). It's an easy modification of the baseline "human" skeleton to slap that template onto a non-human humanoid and call it a day. After all, the NPC stat blocks aren't any different to, say, the entry for an Orc or Gnoll and the way to turn any NPC into a different race is to use those templates. In most cases, those templates aren't applicable to entries like Orc or Gnoll, because their stat-blocks represent a typical member of that race. For the undead templates, things are a little different because they do not change the base race (much as the other ones do not change the base features of the human NPCs in the Appendix) and I see no reason why you couldn't use them to make non-human undead.

Like I said; it can't hurt to ask.

[MaxWilson]

Apologies if I came off as hostile in anyway, I was just curious how you were working these things out as I've never really been one for these kinds of statistics and you were just posting out of context numbers.

It looks like you're using Fighter for the base of the Sharpshooter build, shouldn't you include maneuver's in the calculation? Battlemaster makes the most sense (and is probably the most common) Fighter subclass for this build, and if the other two comparisons are utilising some of their highest level resources then it would be safe to assume that the Fighter would also be doing so (especially as a SR class). Besides Action Surge being highly likely, a Battlemaster that misses can likely turn it into a hit and stack additional damage/conditions on attacks that already hit.

Including subclass features for the fighter seems like overkill when the necromancer isn't spending his action, his concentration, his high-level (6th/7th level) spell slots, or most of his low-level spell slots. All I'm doing is illustrating a good no-concentration use of your bonus action (when you spend two mid-level slots per day beforehand). Fighter is just there for context.

A Battlemaster going all out supernova against the beholder with Action Surge and Precision Strike could probably hit 100 damage, for one round. Does that make skeletons useless at high levels, per the claim?


MM undead aren't "human skeleton or zombie". They are skeleton and zombie. You'll get the same from dwarf, human, orc, or, funnily enough, a halfling. Those DMG "templates" aren't templates, but NPC "races" to apply to MM NPC stats, in case the GM wants to throw zombie knights or skeleton assassins at his group. They are meant to replace racial traits, not to add on them.

Animate Dead says the DM has stats, not that the MM has stats. When I DM I sometimes use the DMG templates to modify the skeleton stats. Not always but sometimes. I wouldn't give you a flying Aarakocra skeleton though--I might give you skeletal wings if the body was in good shape, but they couldn't generate lift.

[Dork_Forge]

Including subclass features for the fighter seems like overkill when the necromancer isn't spending his action, his concentration, his high-level (6th/7th level) spell slots, or most of his low-level spell slots. All I'm doing is illustrating a good no-concentration use of your bonus action (when you spend two mid-level slots per day beforehand). Fighter is just there for context.

A Battlemaster going all out supernova against the beholder with Action Surge and Precision Strike could probably hit 100 damage, for one round. Does that make skeletons useless at high levels, per the claim?

The necromancer's subclass features are used in the creation of the undead and requires (in the example) a significant slot investment.

I don't really have an opinion on that right now and din't amke the claim, I only wanted to know more about the math you used becuase I was curious.

[MaxWilson]

The necromancer's subclass features are used in the creation of the undead and requires (in the example) a significant slot investment.

I don't really have an opinion on that right now and din't amke the claim, I only wanted to know more about the math you used becuase I was curious.

BTW if you are interested in web-based tools to compute average DPR by to-hit vs. AC I can dig up a URL. (Edit: here (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle) it is.) What I did for e.g. Spiritual Weapon VI was plug in "avg att 18 +10 3d8+5" and it accounted for crits and misses and spat out 12.7. Sharpshooter CE Fighter would be "avg 4.att 18 +8 d6+16".

Skeletons are "avg 14.att 18 +4 d6+7". If the Necromancer were novaing too with Otto's Irresistible Dance from outside the antimagic zone, skeletons would have advantage: "avg 14.att 18 +4a d6+7", which comes out to around 90 damage IIRC. And of course the Sharpshooter and other PC would have advantage too, if they were all in the same party.

[JackPhoenix]

Are they specifically for the MM NPC stat blocks, or are they applicable to NPCs in general? Having looked it up, I see nothing there about the templates being restrictive and the MM entry for skeletons specifically calls out that not all skeletons are of humans (obviously). An animated skeleton (by the spell) is an NPC Skeleton (no more specification than that) and the stats for any such skeletons are at the discretion of the GM (specifically). It's an easy modification of the baseline "human" skeleton to slap that template onto a non-human humanoid and call it a day. After all, the NPC stat blocks aren't any different to, say, the entry for an Orc or Gnoll and the way to turn any NPC into a different race is to use those templates. In most cases, those templates aren't applicable to entries like Orc or Gnoll, because their stat-blocks represent a typical member of that race. For the undead templates, things are a little different because they do not change the base race (much as the other ones do not change the base features of the human NPCs in the Appendix) and I see no reason why you couldn't use them to make non-human undead.

Like I said; it can't hurt to ask.

"Appendix B of the Monster Manual contains stat blocks for common NPC archetypes such as bandits and guards, as well as tips for customizing them. Those tips include adding racial traits from the Player's Handbook, equipping NPCs with magic items, and swapping armor, weapons, and spells. If you want to take an NPC stat block and adapt it for a specific monster race, apply the ability modifiers and add the features listed in the NPC Features table. If the NPC's AC, hit points, attack bonus, or damage changes, recalculate its challenge rating."
"If you decide to build an NPC the same way you build a player character, you can skip choosing a background and instead pick two skill proficiencies for the NPC. The NPC Features table summarizes the ability modifiers and features of various nonhuman races, as well as various creatures from the Monster Manual with a challenge rating lower than 1. Apply these modifiers and add these features to the PCs stat block, then determine the NPC's challenge rating just as you would for a monster."

You can use the table to create zombie orcs or skeleton wolves, or something, but it's not intended use for that table. And MM stats for minotaur skeleton and ogre zombie don't use this method on standard minotaur or ogre, though that doesn't mean anything.


Animate Dead says the DM has stats, not that the MM has stats. When I DM I sometimes use the DMG templates to modify the skeleton stats. Not always but sometimes. I wouldn't give you a flying Aarakocra skeleton though--I might give you skeletal wings if the body was in good shape, but they couldn't generate lift.

Agreed, and I would likely give player skeleton knights or something instead of standard MM/PHB undead, with the understanding it's replacement for the usual horde to give the player something more powerful while keeping things less annoying for other players, not an addition to it, if it ever came up. I've also used it as an inspiration to create undead versions of non-humanoid monsters, but that's not exactly what that table is for.

[HolyDraconus]

In 3.5 skeleton and zombie were templates that could be applies to near about any monster maintaining a variety of the base forms stats, attacks, and abilities. As were skeleton & zombie dragons, from the dragon book, which replaced the skeleton & zombie templates when casting 'animate dead' on dragon corpses to maintain even more draconic features. With the right corpses, and true polymorph guaranteed access to the right corpses, animate dead stayed not just relevant but powerful all the way into epic levels.

Beyond that, the 'summon undead' spell line let you summon temporary shadows, which could create permanent shadows, that you could control with command undead, which coyld then create arbitrarily more shadows under your shadow's control. These shadows, accessible at level 9, are immune to normal physical damage and target touch AC to deal strength damage, making them an extremely relevant combat threat at level 20, even if you aren't abusing the spawning mechanics to control an arbitrarily large shadowpocalypse.

Create greater undead eventually lets you make wraiths and spectres, which, like shadows, are ethereal undead targeting touch AC, again making them reasonably threatening even against very high level monsters.

Despite all the talk of 'bounded accuracy', the same is not the case in 5e. Skeletons are great when you get them at level 5, even better with the necromancer buff at level 6, and then slowly fade out in utility over tge next several levels. By the early teens they're not really worth the hassle of dragging around. And none of the create undead monsters are really worth bothering with by the time you can make them.

To be fair, neither were the create undead monsters in 3.5, unless you were abusing wight spawning, but in 3.5 animate dead, the summon undead spell line, and create greater undead all meant undead pet strategies were highly effevtive from level 1 all the way into epic levels.

In 5e skeletons don't scale, summon undead doesn't exist, create undead can't create ethereals, and even if it could they aren't immune to non-magic damage and touch AC doesn't exist so they wouldn't stay good into high levels anyway.

Basically, in 5e necromancy is a very effective low to mid level strategy but does not scale into high levels. Still, that's better than 4e, where necromancy just straight up didn't exist. And honestly, ime most campaigns putter out around the time animate dead stops being useful anyway. Nearly all of the big first party adventure books stop around level 10. Even the recent descent into avernus campaign, which, without spoiling anything, is absolutely an epic tier campaign in concept, only goes to 12 or 13. If your game isn't going to go past that, then skeletons with bows should never stop being an effective use of third level spell slots.

But if the campaign does run past that then you should just retire your necromancer & roll something else, because animate dead is a waste of time at that point, and nothing steps in to fill the gap. Higher level necromancy is a meager handful of almost universally bad spells. Even the one or two decent high level nevromancy spells, like magic jar, don't benefit from your school features, so they're better cast by wizards of other specialties.

Magic jar, for instance, is spectacular in a diviner's spellbook, but for a necromancer it's mostly just a very fancy way to get yourself killed.

I guess that still works out well enough though, as you get magic jar at about the level you'd want to stop playing a necromancer anyway.

This post right here gets it. I feel the same way.

[MaxWilson]

This post right here gets it. I feel the same way.

Why not just invent some new necromancy spells then, modeled on Summon Greater Demon? Undead Thralls is a very strong and generic ability which would work fine on e.g. a Wraith that you temporarily create with a fifth-level hypothetical Manifest Wraith spell, if you're into incorporeal minions.

[sithlordnergal]

Why not just invent some new necromancy spells then, modeled on Summon Greater Demon? Undead Thralls is a very strong and generic ability which would work fine on e.g. a Wraith that you temporarily create with a fifth-level hypothetical Manifest Wraith spell, if you're into incorporeal minions.

Probably because the OP mentioned being an AL Necromancer, so he can't use any homebrew spells

[MaxWilson]

Probably because the OP mentioned being an AL Necromancer, so he can't use any homebrew spells

Ah, good point. Somehow I was thinking about it from a DM's perspective, didn't notice/forgot that it was an AL player asking.

[Dork_Forge]

BTW if you are interested in web-based tools to compute average DPR by to-hit vs. AC I can dig up a URL. (Edit: here (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle) it is.) What I did for e.g. Spiritual Weapon VI was plug in "avg att 18 +10 3d8+5" and it accounted for crits and misses and spat out 12.7. Sharpshooter CE Fighter would be "avg 4.att 18 +8 d6+16".

Skeletons are "avg 14.att 18 +4 d6+7". If the Necromancer were novaing too with Otto's Irresistible Dance from outside the antimagic zone, skeletons would have advantage: "avg 14.att 18 +4a d6+7", which comes out to around 90 damage IIRC. And of course the Sharpshooter and other PC would have advantage too, if they were all in the same party.

Thank you, that looks useful and I appreciate it.