5e Ranking sytem

[asradur]

In the few years i've been playing 5e i've seen MANY people trying to make Tier lists that all seem to fail because they are just scratching the surface of 5e.
All classes have multiple subclasses that can fulfill different niches, so i would like to make a complete list that ranks subclasses on their respective strenghts.
This is heavily inspired by "Person_Man's Niche Ranking System" and partly copied. (i can't add the link due to post restrictions)
I just want to create a 5e version of it
I will not fill out the list, since my experience with most classes is purely on the theorycrafting side and i would like people that have actually played the subclasses to help out.
This thread is just to create a valid list that can be filled by another person.

Here are the guidelines i would like to use:
Just use the basic class abilities. No Feats, multiclassing or magic items.
Only official material. (PhB, Xanathar, SCAG etc.) No UA or homebrew.


Ancestral Guardian
Battlerager
Berserker
Storm Herald
Totem Warrior
Zealot

Glamour
Lore
Swords
Valor
Whispers

Arcana
Death
Forge
Grave
Knowledge
Life
Light
Nature
Order
Tempest
Trickery
War

Dreams
Moon
Land
Shepherd
Spores

Arcane Archer
Battle Master
Cavalier
Champion
Eldritch Knight
Samurai

Drunken Master
Four Elements
Kensei
Long Death
Open Hand
Shadow
Sun Soul

Ancients
Conquest
Crown
Devotion
Vengeance
Oathbreaker

Beast Master
Gloom Stalker
Horizon Walker
Hunter
Monster Slayer

Arcane Trickster
Assassin
Inquisitive
Mastermind
Scout
Swashbuckler
Thief

Draconic Bloodline
Divine Soul
Shadow
Storm
Wild Magic

Archfey
Celestial
Fiend
Great Old One
Hexblade
Undying

Abjuration
Bladesong
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation
War Mage


Battlefield Control: Prevent enemies from taking their normal actions and/or movement.
Buffer: Increase the abilities of allies.
Debuffer: Reduce the abilities of enemies, usually by inflicting status effects.
Healer: Can restore hit points and remove harmful status effects for allies in combat.
Shield: Can soak up a decent amount of damage to keep his team alive.
Close Combat
Ranged Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies at a range.
Mobility: Can circumvent battlefield control and barriers, and quickly pursue or retreat from enemies.
Scouting:
Versatility:
Area Damage

candidates i didnt included but could be added:
Single Target
There are a few niches i did not include from the old list as i find it difficult to rate "Party Face" as that is dependent on the player and not the class but im open to add more if you want it

1 = The class is unambiguously one of the best possible classes to fill that niche effectively and efficiently.
2 = The class can fill that niche effectively and efficiently, it's just not as amazing at it as other classes that fill that niche.
3 = The class can fill that niche, but it's not particularly effective or efficient at it when compared to most other classes that fill that niche.
4 = The class offers absolutely nothing to support this niche.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n-tMD0o-KLPkCxnPtOJWKmhIc_asL9KgJsyCZ95nl_E/edit?usp=sharing


If there is anything i forgot please tell me and i will try to correct it as soon as i can.
If someone wants to take this thread and clean it up to make it easier to read(as i clearly dont have much experience creating forum threads) he is free to take anything he wants from here.
If this kind of spreadsheet already exists for 5e, this post will get deleted soon.

Thank you for reading and giving feedback

[asradur]

Reserved for changelog
Added Cleric
Added Redemption Paladin

Added Scouting
Added Versatility
Change Melee to Close Combat
Made spreadsheet publicly editable

[stoutstien]

Would be easier to give DM styles and strategies into some form of ranking system or reference source.

[Slipperychicken]

The main reason that tier lists for 5e fail is that 5e doesn't need one. The game just isn't complex or poorly-balanced enough to need tons of community content to navigate it.

The purpose of the tier lists in 3.5/PF was to help groups rope off entire categories of classes that could render each other irrelevant, or were effectively playing different games in the ways one trivializes the others, or had powers which could bypass entire adventure plots while others struggled to fulfill their party role. Though problems like caster-supremacy persist, it just isn't a big enough concern in 5e to make a tier list necessary.

[FoxDropz]

awesome, looking forward to it!

[LudicSavant]

There's nothing wrong with tier lists. Heck, like 90% of guides on this site fit that description (seriously, most of them are essentially just color coded tier lists for options within a class).

There is however something wrong with poorly informed tier lists based on little more than kneejerk reactions and intuitions, which the D&D community seems to have a lot of.

There's also a problem with the sort of tier list that treats an entire class as if it's a single build, when it's possible to build them to fill entirely different roles. Which is usually what I see happen when people try to make these "niche-based" tier lists.

[Dudu]

Where is the cleric though?

[MrStabby]

Mobility doesn't seem to be a role, more a way of fulfilling another role, such as melee damage.

[Bjarkmundur]

There are so many ways to do a ranking list, you could make a dozen of them for various purposes and all of them work ok for their function.

But that's exactly the thing, your list needs to have a clear function. A single question it tries to answer. Stick with that and I think you'll be okay.

Who is best at messing up the enemy's plans?
Who is best at taking damage?
Who is best at circumventing combat?

etcetc.

[Aimeryan]

There's also a problem with the sort of tier list that treats an entire class as if it's a single build, when it's possible to build them to fill entirely different roles. Which is usually what I see happen when people try to make these "niche-based" tier lists.

There is truth in this; if something is build specific then the quandary is whether to include it or not - technically, the class is capable, but character may not. Furthermore, some classes can change from being one build to another quite easily on the same character - Wizards are the most obvious - while others are pretty much stuck. One way to get around this is to include a Versatility rating.

~~~

@asradur: Party Face is indeed difficult to rate as a niche in 5e because of the bounded skill system and many such related spells being strongly weakened - Glibness, for example, is an 8th Level spell in 5e and is roughly a +5 boost on average. In 3.5e, Glibness was a 3rd Level spell and was a +30 boost.

Some niches that I feel should be removed:

Melee Damage - There is no benefit to dealing damage in melee over ranged. Ranged Damage is a useful niche because it allows for kiting, for use against highly mobile enemies, for ignoring difficult terrain, etc.


Some niches that I feel should be included:

Scouting - Knowing your enemy is a pretty powerful tool.
Versatility - As mentioned above, how easily a character of the class can move between fulfilling the different niches.


Unlike some others, I feel the Mobility niche is pretty useful to be good at - leaving a dangerous area, leaving an imprisoned area, bypassing obstacles and traps, bringing your abilities to bear against a highly mobile enemy, etc. I would expand its scope to include out of combat mobility, however; plane shift, teleport, fly, etc., are all ways of being where you need to be when you need to be.

I am presuming 'Shield' would include the use of summons to soak up damage.

[asradur]

I forgot the Cleric. Woops
I think mobility is an important stat, that should be included. Maybe its just my campaign but running away or chasing someone seem to happen quite often.
For ranged and melee damage i was thinking of the damage potential those classes can have.
@Aimeryan some classes have higher damage potential in melee compared to ranged. Like Divine smite that cant be attached to ranged.
And yes i would count summons and maybe Ranger companions as Shields as they can soak up damage for other players.

Thinking of adding "Area Damage".

[asradur]

I've finished a first version of the spreadsheet.
If someone could make a thread to find people to fill it out i would appreciate it.
(will add the link as soon as the site allows me)

[Aimeryan]

Thinking of adding "Area Damage".

Area Damage is a very useful niche to include - meant to mention it in my last post! Clerics and Sorcerers usually excel here even if they don't do very well well at Single-Target Damage.

~


@Aimeryan some classes have higher damage potential in melee compared to ranged. Like Divine smite that cant be attached to ranged.

I think I see what you are saying - you want the Barbarian's ability to do lots of damage in melee to be counted, of course. The problem here is that the damage being dealt in melee isn't an advantage, so to say it is a niche is weird. Perhaps change Melee Damage to Single-Target Damage, leave Ranged Damage as is.

~

Tiers of Play is a big consideration - many classes' ability to fulfil niches changes at different levels. Perhaps each Tier should be considered separately.

[asradur]

I just want to add a stat that shows the other side of the "Ranged" one and i can think of several cases where the ability to deal with enemies that ambush you or run past all your friends to attack you.
Example: Your group gets ambushed by a group of bandits. You're surrounded on all sides and you have to deal with them in close range.
A ranger that specialises on bows or a wizard that focuses on long range aoe spells will have some problems with this while a barbarian or paladin will be in optimal range.
Of course this assumes stereotypes but its the best i can do.
Single target is more the counterpart to "Area" and i think its already included as a combination of Melee/Ranged.

But hey, im not the person deciding what to add or not, just the one creating a rough mainframe, so i will add it under potential criterias.

[GeistInMachine]

Perhaps Party Face could be more broadly represented as a 'social' attribute, which encompasses both just high potential for persuasion/deception/intimidation, but also any availability to charms, suggestions, modify memory, Subtle Spell, etc

Basically the ability to contribute to npc interactions in some way besides combat

I imagine top tiers would be things like Bards, Sorcs, Warlocks, Paladins, Enchantment Wizards, and Swashbucklers

I think that means that a flipside of 'utility' should also be included. This would measure overcoming non combat non social challenges like needing to comprehend a text, needing to identify or detect magic, dispels, locks, most ritual casting, and skill checks like lifting heavy objects, perceiving, identifying, tracking etc.

Wizards and other ritual casters work well here, as well as rogues. Str based builds maybe middle of the pack from athletics proficiency. Dex Martials other than rogues would likely be the worst performers here

[OldTrees1]

Back in 3rd edition, tiers meant something qualitative rather than merely quantitative.

Can't Participate in activity A-Z
Can Participate but is never Proficient/Competent/Skilled in activity A-Z
Proficient/Competent/Skilled in activity A-Z
Trivializes/Negates/Removes activity A-Z

5E does not really have tiers. Everyone can choose to be Proficient in a few areas, and some classes gain the ability to Trivialize a genre of activity. That is a much narrower band. Sure a qualitative difference can be expressed, but who ever heard of a 2 Tier system?



I have similar but more muted concerns for the Niche Ranking system. Proficiency is commonly available. Expertise is more limited. The small bonuses result in less overall difference. So the ranking would be mostly about the number of class features that mention that niche. How much of a range do you get between someone with Proficiency and someone with Proficiency and class features? Same question for Expertise vs Expertise + Features.

[Kane0]

I will accept no other measurement than sided die, d4s being the lowest and d20 being best.

[CNagy]

Some niches that I feel should be included:

Scouting - Knowing your enemy is a pretty powerful tool.
Versatility - As mentioned above, how easily a character of the class can move between fulfilling the different niches.


Unlike some others, I feel the Mobility niche is pretty useful to be good at - leaving a dangerous area, leaving an imprisoned area, bypassing obstacles and traps, bringing your abilities to bear against a highly mobile enemy, etc. I would expand its scope to include out of combat mobility, however; plane shift, teleport, fly, etc., are all ways of being where you need to be when you need to be.

I am presuming 'Shield' would include the use of summons to soak up damage.

Versatility is more of a meta-score than a niche (kinda like saying my specialization is generalization) and is probably most easily determined by what class/subclass has the most good or better capability in the most number of other niches.

[Aimeryan]

Versatility is more of a meta-score than a niche (kinda like saying my specialization is generalization) and is probably most easily determined by what class/subclass has the most good or better capability in the most number of other niches.

There is a difference between the class being capable in many things and the character being capable of many of the things the class can do. The former is indeed just a metascore of all the columns, the latter is a whole new piece of information. Perhaps the niche should be called Character Versatility to reflect this.

[asradur]

Thinking about it, it's unlikely that someone else will open a thread just to fill out this sheet.
That's why i made i made it publicly editable.
Let's hope people can behave and try to give reasonable estimates to the classes they have already played.
If you disagree with a rating that has been filled out please try to discuss it in here and not just change it to your liking.
Maybe the other person has valid reasons to give that rating.

I'm sure this won't backfire at all...

Also do you want a different number system for this? (20?5?)
the 1-4 was just an easy small range that was used on the previous sheet.

[asradur]

Seems like someone took the time to fill out most of the spreadsheet without saying anything.
And rogue got quite the low rating.

[GeistInMachine]

That's me
Filled out the last few columns that i missed, which should bring the rogue up

I think you missed Redemption Paladin

Also, maybe some of the categories should be grouped into the three game pillars? They are all weighted the same but things like the combat pillar has a lot more categories

More granularity means some classes get an unfair weight if they check multiple boxes

[Fable Wright]

Some niches that I feel should be removed:

Melee Damage - There is no benefit to dealing damage in melee over ranged. Ranged Damage is a useful niche because it allows for kiting, for use against highly mobile enemies, for ignoring difficult terrain, etc.


Strong disagree. Melee provides Opportunity Attack, Grapple potential, shuts down ranged attacks by imposing disadvantage to hit, ignores cover even without feat investment, and gets advantage instead of disadvantage in melee range of Prone creatures.

Ranged damage is closer to true DPR, while melee combat is higher burst DPR with soft CC attached. (There's more bonus action attacks for melee, along with the existence of Smites.)

It's not better in all circumstances, but it's definitely a niche advantage. Thus should be considered a niche. Admittedly, a Ranger using Plant Growth and Sharpshooter has arguably more damage and more CC than melee, but a Shepherd Druid's melee Conjured Animals has potentially more CC and more DPR than that, so...

[Aimeryan]

Strong disagree. Melee provides Opportunity Attack, Grapple potential, shuts down ranged attacks by imposing disadvantage to hit, ignores cover even without feat investment, and gets advantage instead of disadvantage in melee range of Prone creatures.

Ranged damage is closer to true DPR, while melee combat is higher burst DPR with soft CC attached. (There's more bonus action attacks for melee, along with the existence of Smites.)

It's not better in all circumstances, but it's definitely a niche advantage. Thus should be considered a niche. Admittedly, a Ranger using Plant Growth and Sharpshooter has arguably more damage and more CC than melee, but a Shepherd Druid's melee Conjured Animals has potentially more CC and more DPR than that, so...

Crossbow Expert wipes out most of that, with Warcaster taking out the Opportunity Attack advantage. If your whole niche's advantage is cancelled by pretty much one feat its not really a niche worth rating for.

Also, summons would be considered ranged damage; the class itself is at ranged, not melee. They also get those advantages (because the summons themselves are in melee). In fact, considered that way, the advantages you listed aren't for doing damage while in melee they are instead for doing damage while you have put something in melee. Any class that has good single target damage potential can also gain those advantages, so having it as a separate niche is pointless.

[asradur]

I added redemption paladin and hope thats the last subclass i forgot.
And changed melee damage to close combat, as i think that describes the niche better.
Also i made the book column editable.
Would you like another sheet for combat and out of combat niches instead of tiers?

[Jack Bitters]

Very neat--thanks for making it open to the public. Interesting to see how people rank things. Unsurprisingly, most casters do very well at filling multiple niches, and fighter types struggle to do more than just hit things.