Alternate multiclassing system for 3.5

[Sandfly]

I cut my teeth playing 2nd ed DnD. In that system you were crazy not to play a multiclassed character. I have spent a large part of the last 20 years playing 3rd edition, in various forms, and I have never really liked the way the multiclass system works. 3rd edition is clearly designed not to have multiclassed characters, but rather for single classed characters with a wide variety of prestige classes to create a unique feel. This system works well when you can get a group of 6 or more players to show up to a weekly game. However, in recent years, for a variety of reasons, my group has shrunk to 3-4 players. With most of those players having played 3rd ed for a very long time and having played most of the concepts they were interested in I needed a better multiclassing system.

The system I came up with is based on total experience instead of character level. I learned early on that a 5th level fighter, 5th level mage has no business trying to fight a challenge rating 10 monster on their own. They don't have the expected spell power or combat power. While the character might survive they will likely be nearly dead if they do. So here is the deal to become a 20th level character you need to earn 190,000 experience points. Using the basic concept from 2nd edition, I have treated this like a pool of experience to be spent however the player wishes with a few restrictions. First, I no longer care about favored class, you take no exp penalties no matter what class you take. Next I require that if a player wants to multiclass into Rogue or Paladin that they take at least 4 levels of those classes, due to the front loaded nature of the class abilities. Finally, the cost for the first level of your second class is 1,000 exp, the cost for the first level of your third class is 2,000 exp and so on. If a player wants to add a prestige class, then the exp cost for that prestige class level is added onto the appropriate base class.

Players stop gaining base attack bonus, hit dice, and base saving throws when they have 20 class levels. Level progression rewards for attribute points, feats and max skill ranks are still dependant on the character level, determined by the total number of experience points earned. This means that a character might gain a new feat for becoming a 9th level character without gaining a new class level. However, even after 20 total class levels have been earned the player will continue to receive skill points and special abilities for new class levels.

Here is an example. If a player wanted to play a fighter/mage they now have a few options on how to spend their exp. They could be 19/6, 18/9, 17/10, 16/12, 15/13 or 14/14. All those level splits will give you 190k exp or less when you add 1k exp for the 1st level of the 2nd class. Lets assume that the player wanted a mage with higher BAB for touch spells and took the 18/9 option. That could be 8th level wizard, 10th level Red Wizard of Thay, 9th level fighter. With the prestige class adding to the wizard class for exp purposes.

Now this system is most definitely front loaded, but if you play to mid to high levels I believe it balances out decently. This multiclass system also requires players to plan out there characters more carefully, which for me is the primary benefit. After all no matter how versatile the character is they still only get one action per round. I have tried running this with my group and usually end up with only mild participation. I am curious to see if other use this system what they think.

[Elves]

You're right that 3.5's solution to the multiclass question is through prestige classes -- in Core for example, the expectation for a fighter/wizard was essentially that you'd play a wizard8/fighter2/eldritch knight10, ending up 1.5 spell levels behind throughout most of the game and sacrificing 1 feat on net in exchange for 16 BAB.

If you're looking to do true base class multi-ing, most people will recommend gestalt, where you just combine the class features of two classes. What specific kinds of builds do you want to enable that gestalt doesn't cover?

Gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

[Sandfly]

Honestly, I have never considered using gestalt. But if I am understanding your argument correctly, a gestalt fighter/mage would be a new base class that at 20th level would have the saves, skills and BAB of a fighter, but with all the bonus feats and spell abilities of a 20th level fighter and 20th level mage?

[Biggus]

First, I no longer care about favored class, you take no exp penalties no matter what class you take.

Don't think you'll find many arguments there, my impression is that the great majority of DMs don't enforce multiclassing XP penalties.



Next I require that if a player wants to multiclass into Rogue or Paladin that they take at least 4 levels of those classes, due to the front loaded nature of the class abilities.

I'm curious why you singled out those two classes as front-loaded? Fighter, Monk and Barbarian (especially if you allow the Lion Spirit Totem variant) are all pretty attractive as 1 or 2 level dips too. The only case I know of where a dip into one of those classes could be a bit too good is a Sorcerer taking 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace (in my games I limit the bonus from DG to class level +3 for this reason).



Finally, the cost for the first level of your second class is 1,000 exp, the cost for the first level of your third class is 2,000 exp and so on.


I'd be interested to see how this works out in practice, it seems like it could go some way towards leveling out the class disparities, as in general multiclassing is a more attractive option for martials, and gish/theurge builds are usually weaker than single-classed casters.

How much does the second level in your second and third classes cost? Is it just 1,000XP as usual or does each subsequent level have an increased cost?



If a player wants to add a prestige class, then the exp cost for that prestige class level is added onto the appropriate base class.

How do you work this with something like Eldritch Knight, which requires two base classes to qualify? Do you add it on to whichever is higher level?

[Remuko]

Honestly, I have never considered using gestalt. But if I am understanding your argument correctly, a gestalt fighter/mage would be a new base class that at 20th level would have the saves, skills and BAB of a fighter, but with all the bonus feats and spell abilities of a 20th level fighter and 20th level mage?

A Gestalt Wizard Fighter would have Fighter BAB, Fighter Fort and Wizard Will (they both have same ref, so it would be same ref as both), and it would have all the spells of Wiz and all the Wiz AND all of the fighter feats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Honestly, I have never considered using gestalt. But if I am understanding your argument correctly, a gestalt fighter/mage would be a new base class that at 20th level would have the saves, skills and BAB of a fighter, but with all the bonus feats and spell abilities of a 20th level fighter and 20th level mage?
Yes, and you could still multiclass, too. For example, you could take four levels in fighter + wizard, and then a level of warblade + wizard, and then ten levels of warblade + incantatrix (this is usually written as fighter 4/warblade 11//wizard 5/incantatrix 10). That gets you all the usual base attack, saves, hit dice, skills, etcetera, and 4th-level fighter class features, 11th-level warblade class features, 5th-level wizard class features, and 10th-level incantatrix class features.

[FaerieGodfather]

My multiclassing system foir 3.5/PF involves combining fixed progression Gestalt-- with a variable number of classes-- with a scaling Level Adjustment (like UA's "bloodline" rules) based on how many classes you're progressing in.

I do not have a firm grasp on the math of it, yet, or other details. I am considering how I want Prestige Classes to work, multiclassing in similar/alternate classes, and various "half class" options. Needs playtesting... and I need to beat the whole thing with the simple stick, because my current expression of the rules sucks so bad it was featured on a thread here.

[Sandfly]

I'm curious why you singled out those two classes as front-loaded? Fighter, Monk and Barbarian (especially if you allow the Lion Spirit Totem variant) are all pretty attractive as 1 or 2 level dips too. The only case I know of where a dip into one of those classes could be a bit too good is a Sorcerer taking 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace (in my games I limit the bonus from DG to class level +3 for this reason).


Most of my players do not play Monk or Barbarian, as for Fighter the bonus feats are sort of the point for that multiclass. The reason for the restriction on rogue is that I don't want everyone taking two levels of Rogue to get Evasion (one of the most powerful class abilities in the game at any level)



How much does the second level in your second and third classes cost? Is it just 1,000XP as usual or does each subsequent level have an increased cost?

Once the additional base class is acquired all subsequent levels use the standard exp chart.


How do you work this with something like Eldritch Knight, which requires two base classes to qualify? Do you add it on to whichever is higher level?

In this case you would add the prestige class to which ever base class you wanted, and then progress levels as normal.

Over all I'm looking for more ways to break the game with this system so that I can adjust and be forewarned before a campaign is ruined.

[Kayblis]

I like 2e's approach to multiclassing, but in 3e you'd be hard-pressed to justify all that to a group that doesn't use the system the same way. So, you can get up to 14/14 for a total of 28 levels in a 20-level progression - but what does that even mean in the real game? To me, it sounds like a very complicated way to avoid using Gestalt and adding many extra steps.

As an example, let's say I want to make a melee brute. Under your system, the more melee classes I get, the better. So I can be a Fighter 4/Barbarian 4/Ranger 4 with +12 BAB, better saves, many more skillpoints, 3 attacks with each weapon and overall killer loadout for the equivalent of... what, 7th or 8th level? These two don't compare at all. Also that doesn't interact well with PrCs, because now you have a new XP method and, according to your post, you choose a class to advance it XP-wise. That doesn't work in 3.5 if I can just say "my Fighter 9/Barbarian 1 will advance Frenzied Berserker as Barbarian levels, so I just got 4 PrC levels in 2 sessions". I won't even begin with the merits of double progression PrCs, the issue is obvious.

You should also revise what classes are "front-loaded". I don't see Druid or Barbarian in this class list. Have you played with ACFs before? Because if so, Cleric should also be added.

You're already on the same track of Gestalt - your PCs will be stronger than common characters in the base system and everyone in the party should use it together. By not messing with skill points, skill caps, nonlinear progression, disassociated feat gain and stat increases, the gestalt system is more solid and less prone to breaking the system, as well as confusing your players. It's simple to use, you should give it a shot.


After all no matter how versatile the character is they still only get one action per round.

Oh how innocent you are... Jokes aside, that's not true. Quicken Metamagic exists, and so does Belt of Battle. A couple spells can get you more actions as long as you can take the backlash, and some PrCs get limited bonus actions. If a player gets hold of a monster form that has multiple actions, that's also a possibility. Your group might not use them now, but unless you ban them, this assumption is not really true.

[Sandfly]

[QUOTE=Remuko;24188430]A Gestalt Wizard Fighter would have Fighter BAB, Fighter Fort and Wizard Will (they both have same ref, so it would be same ref as both), and it would have all the spells of Wiz and all the Wiz AND all of the fighter feats.

I do not think I would allow this sort of multiclassing as it is essentially allowing two complete classes for the cost of one. The reason I went with the exp based split is to force players to plan out their characters and to give some bonuses from other classes without unbalancing the basic game mechanics completely.


side note, would the gestalt class gain all class skills for both classes?

[Sandfly]

Oh how innocent you are... Jokes aside, that's not true. Quicken Metamagic exists, and so does Belt of Battle. A couple spells can get you more actions as long as you can take the backlash, and some PrCs get limited bonus actions. If a player gets hold of a monster form that has multiple actions, that's also a possibility. Your group might not use them now, but unless you ban them, this assumption is not really true.

Yes I know those things are out there, but being a mage/cleric does not grant the player extra access to those items/abilities the player has to specifically design their character to use those spells, abilities or find the items. My point was that being able to cast arcane and divine spells does not grant the character the ability to cast one of each spell per round just because they have the classes.

[Kayblis]

Yes I know those things are out there, but being a mage/cleric does not grant the player extra access to those items/abilities the player has to specifically design their character to use those spells, abilities or find the items. My point was that being able to cast arcane and divine spells does not grant the character the ability to cast one of each spell per round just because they have the classes.

Technically it does. I'm not trying to be smart here, get an immunity to Daze and any Wizard in the world can trade a slot with Celerity for a new standard action. Any Sorcerer can have 2 spells per round with either Quicken MM or Arcane Spellsurge. You can change forms with spells too. Those are just spell selections, no real character design involved.

Also doesn't address the point that any character built to abuse these mechanics, as you've said, just gets an immense power boost for being able to pick extra levels from other classes. A Mystic Theurge would actually be better than the separated sides, because at most you'd be one level behind in XP and would have access to both spell lists for no real cost. You'd even level up faster at later levels and surpass them, being a better Wizard than a straight Wizard and a better Cleric than a straight Cleric at the same time. I'd be actually impressed if the world wasn't run by theurge types at that point.

[Remuko]

[QUOTE]

I do not think I would allow this sort of multiclassing as it is essentially allowing two complete classes for the cost of one. The reason I went with the exp based split is to force players to plan out their characters and to give some bonuses from other classes without unbalancing the basic game mechanics completely.


side note, would the gestalt class gain all class skills for both classes?

Yes. Gestalt has you take the best BaB Saves and Skill points from the two classes. And all of the class features of both. Its meant to only be used in a game where everyone is Gestalted though, as yes it is two classes for the cost of one.

[Sandfly]

Also doesn't address the point that any character built to abuse these mechanics, as you've said, just gets an immense power boost for being able to pick extra levels from other classes. A Mystic Theurge would actually be better than the separated sides, because at most you'd be one level behind in XP and would have access to both spell lists for no real cost. You'd even level up faster at later levels and surpass them, being a better Wizard than a straight Wizard and a better Cleric than a straight Cleric at the same time. I'd be actually impressed if the world wasn't run by theurge types at that point.


I did see the problem with Mystic Theurge coming. That class can be used to achieve 20th level spell casting in both Arcane and Divine spell casting classes with this system. I would only allow it if the group was small and in need of one player covering both roles. I think you are right about multiple PrC's and will need to adjust how that works. Overall I think this system is a little less powerful than using gestalt classes, and I may want to restrict the options to the 19/6 or 18/9 splits.

[HouseRules]

If you make Gestalt characters require 200% experience to level up compare to regular characters, ...
level 1-5 is equal to LA +1
level 6+ is equal to LA+2

One "Dual Progression Prestige Class" would give caster level -5/-5 or -3/-7.
Two "Dual Progression Prestige Class" would give caster level -3/-3. (Normal Entry)
Two "Dual Progression Prestige Class" would give caster level -2/-2 or -1/-3. (Early Entry)

Thus, gestalt (banning dual progression) is equal to early entry trick.

[Godskook]

My multiclass rules work like a combination of Gestalt and E6:

Starting from level 1, you pick one class, as if you're a normal 3.5 character. As you gain XP, you can level up -that- class, or open a gestalt track for a new class.(Classes can only be on one track, and only one class per track).

So let's say you wanted to play a Sorcadin concept. Start as a Paladin 1. At 1kxp, get Paladin 2. Another 3kxp, and you can either spend 2kxp on going to Paladin 3 or unlocking Sorcerer 1. Let's go Sorcerer 1, so Paladin 2//Sorcerer 1. At this point, you're treated as a level 2 character. You've got 2 HD, max skills of 5. Second level in Sorcerer costs 1kxp, 3rd in Paladin costs 2kxp, or you can save up 4kxp to open a 3rd class. Expensive at this point. Eventually, in the "late game" of my ruleset, you're looking at a Paladin 6//Swordsage 6//Sorcerer 6//Wilder 6 with Ascetic Mage and Ranged Smite.

At any point in the leveling process, a character in this system "looks" like a normal gestalt character of their classes. So a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4 would have 6 BAB, 5 Fort, and 4 Will. Skill points and HP work slightly different(characters still get the base skill points from both classes) so that Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4 would have the normal (2+Int)*(6+3) skill points for Paladin, plus another 2*(6+3) skill points from Sorcerer. For HP, they gain max HP from their strong class's first level, and half for every level up to their HD in the strongest class at each level, and then quarter for every other class level they have, capped at their strongest class's max HP.

So a Paladin 6//stuff could have no more than 60+(Con*6) HP, and specifically, a Paladin 6//Sorcerer 4//Monk 2 would have 10+5*5 HP from Paladin, plus 4 HP from Sorcerer and 4 HP from Monk, for 43 HP.

For more info: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FfgVpvPDWm2DAHznP5AU4BRkI3nf_mfBOekEv4750s/edit?usp=sharing

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I was about to point out that this disproportionately helps martials, who already benefit from multclassing... but then I thought about that for a second and realized that's probably a good thing anyway.

I'd also single out Incarnate, Totemist, and the ToB classes for requiring at least four levels due to front loading.