Game Mastering for Level 1

[Zombulian]

Hey all, I was just wondering if anyone here has any tricks for DM’ing a good game starting at level 1. The level range just seems so restrictive to me. Healing capabilities are so low that it often seems suicidal to try for multiple encounters in one adventuring day, and total HP and AC are so low that every battle seems like an absolute ultimate struggle.

I’ve had modules like Sunless Citadel recommended to me, but having read through it and having run parts of it, I don’t understand how the party is meant to delve in a dungeon at all when they need to rest between every room.

What do you guys do? Do you avoid that level range in the first place? Just pull punches? Focus mostly on social interactions and RP?

[Elves]

At very low levels it may be nice to do "day in the life" stuff instead of dungeon crawls. Especially since those are the levels where you can realistically do that stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Do encounters that put the party at a strategic advantage.

For example, they're traveling down the road through a light forest that's known to be inhabited by kobolds, and you have them roll spot checks with a DC of something like 8. You tell them they think there may be an ambush up ahead; there's a tree across the road, and they can see spears sticking up out of the bushes where they're obviously hiding. They'll get the drop on them and half will run away, it should still be a challenge but will likely be quite easy.

[Biggus]

I tend to start at about level 3 or 4 usually, unless there are new players: I feel like you ought to play through from level 1 at least once. If I am starting at level 1, I tend to make the first part a sort of mini-adventure intro (typically with opponents who don't have any hard-to-defend-against special abilities) before getting into the main story.

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe its just my group, but the frontliners are usually rocking around a 16-18 AC with occasionally being higher, which means that most enemies at that level have like a 20% chance to hit them. As for healing, these low levels are when its got the most punch as CLW can bring a frontliner from 0 to near full on a good roll and Lesser Vigor will just flat out full heal all but the highest HP people.

As for how they do multiple encounters? It depends on how the dice falls and who gets the drop on who. I've ran the Citadel and the PCs have quite literally gone through the whole thing only resting once, as they usually go up a level or two while going through it and so they get a partial refill.

[Elkad]

My main advice is to stick to enemies with simple weapons and low strengths. You only want 20/x2 for those crits.

Doing 9 (1d6+2, x2) damage to the Wizard is bad enough, but he'll at least only be unconscious. An Orc hitting him for 3d12+12 with a great axe means he's very very dead. Hell, even 1d12+4 has a good chance of leaving him so low the party can't bandage him in time.


And if they didn't bring a healing cleric or similar, throw some CLW potions at them early. Then you can pressure them to drink them right away.

[noob]

My main advice is to stick to enemies with simple weapons and low strengths. You only want 20/x2 for those crits.

Doing 9 (1d6+2, x2) damage to the Wizard is bad enough, but he'll at least only be unconscious. An Orc hitting him for 3d12+12 with a great axe means he's very very dead. Hell, even 1d12+4 has a good chance of leaving him so low the party can't bandage him in time.


And if they didn't bring a healing cleric or similar, throw some CLW potions at them early. Then you can pressure them to drink them right away.

wow your orcs must have quite a lot of levels for doing such high damage per attack.
Also how do you get 3d12 damage on a weapon?

[Afghanistan]

wow your orcs must have quite a lot of levels for doing such high damage per attack.
Also how do you get 3d12 damage on a weapon?

Crit on a Great Axe is x3 so I imagine that is what they mean.

[Elkad]

Exactly.

A big crit ruins everything at 1st level.

[PraxisVetli]

Maybe its just my group, but the frontliners are usually rocking around a 16-18 AC with occasionally being higher, which means that most enemies at that level have like a 20% chance to hit them. As for healing, these low levels are when its got the most punch as CLW can bring a frontliner from 0 to near full on a good roll and Lesser Vigor will just flat out full heal all but the highest HP people.

As for how they do multiple encounters? It depends on how the dice falls and who gets the drop on who. I've ran the Citadel and the PCs have quite literally gone through the whole thing only resting once, as they usually go up a level or two while going through it and so they get a partial refill.

I'm with you on this.
My melee players are all optimized Initiators, and the Casters know to stay back and drop Grease or Colour Spray. I don't usually have much trouble with low-level mortality, except for that one time when a level 2 Dread Necro jumped out of a 3 story building.
But he got patched up in time.

[Katie Boundary]

Try some adventures that rely more on puzzle-solving and less on hitting stuff with a stick.

[Asmotherion]

i usually have session 1 go from levels 1-3. This way i can have the party face iconic low level minions (zombies/goblins for example) go through some more powerful "generals" at level 2 (A couple Ghouls for example) and proceed to a boss fight with some Adept (flavored as a Necromancer in example).

[daremetoidareyo]

I suspend npc crits for levels 1 and 2. A goblin can kill almost anyone with some lucky rolls, and unplanned undramatic player death can suck the wind right out of the sails

[Telonius]

I don't usually run one-shots or short modules, so when we're playing Level 1 it's usually the first couple of sessions of a massive story arc. For things like that, I usually like to open with something that can showcase the skills that a player has selected. Town festivals are usually good for things like that. It also gives new players a chance to see how the general mechanic works without there being deadly consequences for failure. ("Okay, so look up in your Skills list where it says 'Balance.' Got any ranks in it? Add that ...") It also gives them a sense of agency, so the thing that they picked (or didn't) has some sort of consequence. So after a social encounter, the plot usually gears up. After that, it's low-level enemies (dire rat-ish, possibly a goblin scout or two; stuff they can gang up on), maybe a few traps; basically kid gloves until they hit level 2. Having a character that you put a lot of work into snuff it from a lucky housecat scratch is no fun.

[ngilop]

I guess my question is why are you not giving any treasure out for the party at level 1?

I mean.. magic items can still be there at level 1. That is how they can do a dungeon at level 1. It is no that hard you are probably going to find a dozen or so cure light wounds potions. and probably the same number of 1st level scrolls divided between arcane and divine. Maybe a 2nd level scroll or 2.

[FiberPilot]

This works with any system: if a PC would die, you just assign a long-term negative modifier as trauma. This way PCs can't just die because of an unlucky roll, but players are still encouraged to avoid getting too mangled up. There is still some serious hurt at stake, but not losing the PC.

[Zombulian]

This works with any system: if a PC would die, you just assign a long-term negative modifier as trauma. This way PCs can't just die because of an unlucky roll, but players are still encouraged to avoid getting too mangled up. There is still some serious hurt at stake, but not losing the PC.

I actually like this a lot.

[Efrate]

I love doing village fair starts. Especially with new players. You can ring the bell for a strength based challenge, do a Jacobs ladder for dex, etc. Have them bust up a bit of bullying or petty theft, then do a padded weapon little gladitorial match, stuff like that. Low cr wild animals make a nice encounter, or a lone goblin or kobalds as a scout. Illusionry foes also work because you can always haha not a real wound if need be.

[RNightstalker]

There are a lot of factors that play into it. Experience levels of DM and PC's, optimization and general strategy. Take those things into account as well. Know yourself and know your group.

[False God]

I tend to do more "investigation" type adventures for low levels often with little actual dungeon delving and little combat. I keep this up usually level 1-5.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm honestly not fond of sub-level 5 play, at all, but the up-shot of being so low-level is that, unless you're planning your build all the way through level 20, making low-level characters is a breeze. Rattling out level 5 characters can take less than half-an-hour so they're largely expendable.

I just run the adventure and let the players worry about keeping their PCs alive. If they fail, oh well. Roll up another. If they're making particularly slow progress, I'll temporarily suspend the rule by which I have them come in one level lower than the party average.

Two things I want the playerse to get through their heads ASAP are that the world their characters inhabit is -dangerous- and that they are -not- the gods' chosen, exempt from bad luck crushing them. I'm a gameist not a story-teller though. YMMV.

[tiercel]

I actually like low-level, including level 1, adventuring.


“Quadratic spellcasters” is a lot less of a problem at low levels, especially since a relatively small number of potentially problematic spells/abilities (*cough*AbruptJaunt*cough*) are easier to prepare for, mitigate, or houserule compared to the exponentially growing options at each new spell level and metamagic chicanery
Real-world-style adventuring, e.g. environmental effects, wild animals, non-instantaneous travel, etc. actually matter
NPCs matter more when it’s not just a handful of specially named leveled NPCs who have any potential significance
Tactics, planning, and actual PC caution can be learned rather than a tendency to resort to either “my numbers are BIGGER THAN your numbers” or “simply apply spell A to situation B”
Playing a scrappy, all-too-mortal hero can feel a little more... heroic than starting out as Superman —and if you play your way into being Superman, it feels more like something you might have had to scrape by into, rather than the result of a carefully pre-planned build and backstory. Prestige classes may even feel... prestigious.

[Alcore]

What do you guys do? Do you avoid that level range in the first place? Just pull punches? Focus mostly on social interactions and RP?
Plenty of things...

2. I prefer wounds and vigor so the average level 1 has 20 'hp' with a single HD of breathing room allowing some to suffer well over 30 damage before expiring. (Pairs nicely with armor as damage reduction)

3. No, never pull the punches. Just make sure the fists you use isn't the same one repeatedly. At level 1 they are nobodies (more or less) so have them take second place every once in a while. If an Orc raiding party comes to town have them do crowd control; saving people, help direct them to a shelter, fortify a building to be used as a shelter.

Meanwhile the real heroes of the raid are spearheading the counter attack. The NPCs will still be grateful for the save and will be rewarded. If they wish to jump the rails and play superhero then let them and if they die you can at least say you tried.

4. Those are particular fists that might receive more use than usual. Try a dungeon that is on the light side of monster encounters or if some of them are of a woodsman bent have then escort a caravan through an unused route. Don't limit yourself to just monsters. Hot and cold, weather, visibility and more can be found in the books; pathfinder even has encounter ratings for some natural hazards allowing XP gain that isn't ad hock.

[daremetoidareyo]

4. Those are particular fists that might receive more use than usual. Try a dungeon that is on the light side of monster encounters or if some of them are of a woodsman bent have then escort a caravan through an unused route. Don't limit yourself to just monsters. Hot and cold, weather, visibility and more can be found in the books; pathfinder even has encounter ratings for some natural hazards allowing XP gain that isn't ad hock.

And this advice here also helps you create powerful and moving encounters. Fighting goblins in sunlight on a plain is one thing. Fighting goblins on a slippery ridgeline path during a windy thunderstorm is another. Throw some unique weapon choices (first round bolas?!) on the goblins and a partially charged wand on a goblin rogue and you got yourself an epic showdown.

chasing the pair of were-cockroaches under the docks where big weapons cant be swung due to the pilons (or they can be swung and possibly sundered by accident) at midnight is a dynamic battle: bad visibility, limited movement, weapon choice and tactic choices, and low level creepies is fun.

[Vaern]

Level 1 characters are basically nobodies. Nobody's going to expect them to do amazing heroic things on their own until they have an eye-catching piece of magic equipment or a few battle scars to show off...
If a bunch of bandits is harassing a village, the villagers aren't going to trust 4 random nobodies who just wandered into town to deal with the problem on their own. However, if a few of the villagers happened to be sitting in the bar talking about how they'd be able to round up a posse to run the bandits off if only they had a couple more able-bodied fighters, those 4 strangers who just wandered into town might be a welcome addition to their group. From both the party's perspective and the villagers' perspective, the addition of these extra faceless, nameless nobodies will help to soak up a bit of extra damage and hopefully allow the people who actually matter to survive.

[Alcore]

And this advice here also helps you create powerful and moving encounters. Fighting goblins in sunlight on a plain is one thing. Fighting goblins on a slippery ridgeline path during a windy thunderstorm is another. Throw some unique weapon choices (first round bolas?!) on the goblins and a partially charged wand on a goblin rogue and you got yourself an epic showdown.

chasing the pair of were-cockroaches under the docks where big weapons cant be swung due to the pilons (or they can be swung and possibly sundered by accident) at midnight is a dynamic battle: bad visibility, limited movement, weapon choice and tactic choices, and low level creepies is fun.

... and this advice is how to make low level encounters epic! They will feel the victory when they break the kobold shield wall. they same kobolds who use tail attachments (to strike from reach or trip with tail sweepers), Spears of various lengths, and breath colas of various types to inflict yet more status ailments. all at level 1...

however

these are also the kind of things you don't just throw out of the blue (even veterans might balk at going anywhere unless it is sunny and most players will not move to an area of poor visibility willingly). you want to challenge them not give them hopelessness. Handle with care is not that same thing as 'pulling ones punches'.

[daremetoidareyo]

... and this advice is how to make low level encounters epic! They will feel the victory when they break the kobold shield wall. they same kobolds who use tail attachments (to strike from reach or trip with tail sweepers), Spears of various lengths, and breath colas of various types to inflict yet more status ailments. all at level 1...

however

these are also the kind of things you don't just throw out of the blue (even veterans might balk at going anywhere unless it is sunny and most players will not move to an area of poor visibility willingly). you want to challenge them not give them hopelessness. Handle with care is not that same thing as 'pulling ones punches'.

Agreed. I always keep a retreat option open in early levels and remind them that it exists, which sometimes alters their tactics.

[Fizban]

Hey all, I was just wondering if anyone here has any tricks for DM’ing a good game starting at level 1. The level range just seems so restrictive to me. Healing capabilities are so low that it often seems suicidal to try for multiple encounters in one adventuring day, and total HP and AC are so low that every battle seems like an absolute ultimate struggle.

I’ve had modules like Sunless Citadel recommended to me, but having read through it and having run parts of it, I don’t understand how the party is meant to delve in a dungeon at all when they need to rest between every room.

What do you guys do? Do you avoid that level range in the first place? Just pull punches? Focus mostly on social interactions and RP?
Here's a secret you might not have noticed about "1st level" adventures: they're almost never 1st level.

Sunless Citadel? Well let's see, the very first fight is against three Dire Rats, full EL 1, except they ambush the first party member that comes down the rope. The first encounter is literally a gank squad. Let's see, second major encounter is 3 skeletons, again EL 1- but these were 3.0 skeletons, with AC 13, +0/1d4 attacks, and only half damage from slashing instead of DR 5, so if you use the humanoid warrior templated skeleton from the 3.5 MM that gets way more dangerous. There's a Quasit which is absolutely not appropriate for a 1st level party, nor is the water mephit, thoqqua, shadow, or modified troll, though you might argue those are supposed to be fled from and fought after the party levels up. The kobolds are "CR 1/6," except their crossbow attacks are more powerful than the rats, plus range- while 3.5 jacked up skeletons and zombies thanks to templates, they fixed the kobold entry by changing that to a sling. But in the module as written, all those little 3 kobold clusters which should be EL 1/6*3=1/2, allowing you to clear several in a row for easy xp, are actually as dangerous as other CR 1/2 creatures with their 15 AC +2/d8 attacks (3.0 crossbows didn't care about small size) and effectively EL 3/2 for no additional payout. And a whole psychological effect of "tiny cowards we should be crushing" baiting players into overextending.

Forgotten Forge? Openly admits its second combat is EL 3, followed by an EL 2 which is immune to weapons, and its final fight is another EL3 which attacks the party on their way back to the civilized part of town when they're likely to be tired and expecting safety. First areas of World's Largest Dungeon? EL 2-3 across the board. Expedition to Undermountain? Well the cover says 1st-10th and the random encounters for the first area are 1st-2nd, but the rooms themselves are no lower than EL 2 with an average of EL 4 or so. That short web adventure A Dark and Stormy Knight? Starts with 8 rats which sounds easy until you see their +4 attack/14 AC and minimum 1 damage per hit, multiplied by 8 rats, then also brings in a "lesser" version of a more power monster with an area save vs helpless, and ends with a 42 hp zombie.

1st level adventures seem to think they need two things: encounters with multiple foes, and "boss fights" which are deliberately above the party's level. Except the DMG explicitly points out that going *any* amount above the party level drastically increases the chance of death, which will obviously be even worse at 1st, and worst of all when you set it after multiple previous fights. If the intent is to bait new players into getting wrecked so they learn the world is dangerous and unforgiving, because Oldschool, well then I guess its working. Additionally, some adventures (particularly 3rd party) are written for a party of 4-6 characters, or even just 6 flat out, which is easy to miss when you're just looking at the level- but the former reasons are the big ones. There's also a bit of mechanical difficulty: a novice group starting at 1st level is quite likely to miss how reach 0', AoOs, and 5' steps work, so even the appropriate Tiny pests become more dangerous as the PCs don't get their free defensive attacks.

The alternative is to have an Actual 1st Level Adventure, which is. . . pest control. If your encounters are all CR 1 or less (true CR 1, not lol Orc warriors), then they're gonna be bugs, small animals, and average or Small humanoids with poor quality weapons, outnumbered by the party with their full elite stats, max hp at 1st, and 50-100gp in quality handpicked weapons and armor. It's not a fair fight, the CR system is not made to produce fair fights. It's not glamorous. It's four powerful privileged people killing things that normal (1 HD average commoners) could fight, but it would be a dangerously fair fight for those people, so they pay adventurers a fat stack of cash instead. There's also a ton of fomula mileage in traps, which give full party xp despite generally being bypassable with zero damage. One random/leadup encounter, a trap, a room encounter, and then another trap is a full "day," and 1/3 of a level if you kick in a story bonus somewhere. Instead of 3 dire rats/dogs/goblins/spiders/belligerent commoners/whatever at once because party level=1 so El=1, have 1 and then 2 next room: same xp, less lethal, more rooms.

Another thing you can do, blunt but effective, is frontload their supplies. DMG p53 shows the difference between expected treasure and expected wealth gain, with the difference being expected consumable use. 1st to 2nd is 100gp per character, 2nd to 3rd is 200. A wand of Cure Light is 750gp, and will be "paid off" by the end of 2nd level for a party of 4 characters, as long as you don't drop any other consumables. Their employer hands them a wand on the way out, done.

The only 1st level adventure I've seen that was dynamic without actually being overpowered for a 1st level party was the start of War of the Burning Sky. It does this by pulling every trick in the book: NPC healer ally, deliberately staggered waves, a series of non-combat opportunities, a chase where the foe fighting you isn't trying to kill you, more social/non-lethal combat options, some animals and humanoids, then finally after the party should definitely be 2nd level you get the half dozen 1 HD thugs. With an NPC waiting to bail them out. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a sight better than just ignoring the problem.

[Eldariel]

Just let the party forge their own destiny. They need to use their resources smart and nuke encounters with maximum number of expendable tanks and minimum numbers of actions taken by enemies; Wizards and Druids in particular shine here. But yeah, let the party choose how many fights they take and just play the ecology naturally; they can try to play one fight days but travel and resting is also risky so they can't guarantee it. And they won't clear any dungeons that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fizban's word wall two posts above this is mostly true.

It should be noted, however, that the DMG guidelines suggest that 15% of encounters should be of a higher EL than the party (+1 to 4) and 5% should be overwhelmingly dangerous to them (+5 or more).

Also of note is that the XP table gives the same XP for levels 1 through 3 so having that 1:5 encounter substantially shortens the time you spend at level 1. A CR 3 foe at level 1 will give you 1/4 of the xp to make it to 2 if you're in a party of four. Taking the 13-1/3 encounters necessary to get from 1 to 2 on CR 1 foes would be an absolute slog.

If I'm essentially gambling my characters' lives in every encounter at that level anyway, I'd rather make the larger bet and get it over with, one way or the other. After all, you don't necessarily have to kill everything to get the XP. In a lot of cases, mere survival is good enough to have overcome the encounter.

[Fizban]

Fizban's word wall two posts above this is mostly true.
Don't act like you don't do it either, I've read some of your recent posts :smalltongue:

It should be noted, however, that the DMG guidelines suggest that 15% of encounters should be of a higher EL than the party (+1 to 4) and 5% should be overwhelmingly dangerous to them (+5 or more).
Indeed. They're also flagged as "one PC might very well die" and "this sort of encounter may be more dangerous than an overpowering one because it's not immediately obvious to the players that the PCs should flee." In short, to reduce the lethality of low level adventures, reduce the lethality of low level adventures. I just look at 1st level adventures which like to end with Ogres and other stuff that can one-shot most of the party when they're already low on resources and think, "really?"

Also of note is that the XP table gives the same XP for levels 1 through 3 so having that 1:5 encounter substantially shortens the time you spend at level 1. A CR 3 foe at level 1 will give you 1/4 of the xp to make it to 2 if you're in a party of four. Taking the 13-1/3 encounters necessary to get from 1 to 2 on CR 1 foes would be an absolute slog.

If I'm essentially gambling my characters' lives in every encounter at that level anyway, I'd rather make the larger bet and get it over with, one way or the other. After all, you don't necessarily have to kill everything to get the XP. In a lot of cases, mere survival is good enough to have overcome the encounter.
This is also probably a fair part of it. As for whether its a slog, that's always up to description and pacing, but if you're relying on combat in the combat-based game then you're probably gonna want a larger range. Which means gambling, and indeed you might as well go big or go home then.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't act like you don't do it either, I've read some of your recent posts :smalltongue:

I most certainly do. :smallbiggrin: Didn't intend it in a derogatory fashion, merely descriptive.

Ironically enough, just before those big posts in the "quadratic fighter" discussion, I was commenting to a friend that has to write some essays for a degree he's working at that I would find writing large papers to be a pain the back-side. :smallamused:

[False God]

Part of this issue comes down to the fact that often at low levels, the DM and the players aren't exactly sure what they can handle. A well optimized and coordinated party, even at level 1, can "punch up" quite well. The DM has a guideline on their side saying "if your PCs are XYZ level they can handle ABC monsters." It's a rough guide but it's something. The PCs on the other hand don't. They have no idea if they can take that troll, if they can beat those rats, if they can kill those kobolds (assuming they're not metgaming). And they may not know until they're dead.

And optimized monsters can make the problem even more difficult, even if they don't get class features, simply "playing smart" can cause monsters to be massively more difficult.

Which can lead to parties running away from things they can take, and attempting to take things they should run away.

There really should be some mechanic for PCs to gauge fights.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There really should be some mechanic for PCs to gauge fights.

There is. The sense motive skill can be used to guage the rough level of threat presented by a foe. Complete Adventurer 102.

If you're stuck in a core environment then you're right but I have to ask; why on earth are you stuck in a core 3e game? It's been over a decade and 2 new versions of the game, 4 if you count PF 1e and 2e.

[False God]

There is. The sense motive skill can be used to guage the rough level of threat presented by a foe. Complete Adventurer 102.
The problem is this comes down to the following, all of which are out of the player's control:
A: Does the DM allow this book? Complete with variants: The DM allows this book, but not this rule. The DM allows this book and this rule, but doesn't tell anyone about it (there's a lot of rules to know!). The DM allows this book but isn't aware of this particular rule.
B: The DM is very begrudging with information. Complete with variants: The DM answers questions like a Jedi. The DM thinks its cute to give you information that is basically useless. The DM roleplays your character for you and each character gets a different idea of how challenging the enemy is.
C: It's one of those weird rules that can produce wrong information.
D: It targets only a single opponent.
E: Its information is contextual.
F: It relies on the DM.

The big issue is it relies on is the DM. The DM doesn't have perfect knowledge on if something is a challenge for you or not. They probably won't for several encounters and a couple levels. Secondly, it doesn't actually reveal the CR of the encounter, it reveals how close on the basis of HD the single enemy is to yourself. HD=/=CR. By this chart, a 1HD creature (like a badger) is a "fair fight". But only for you, not for your party. 2 Badgers is a CR 1 fight, same as the party. But each party member would see a badger as a "fair fight", and 4 badgers would be a CR 2 fight. Which even the Encounter Calculator lists as a "Very Difficult" fight.

It does worse than giving no information. It gives bad information.


If you're stuck in a core environment then you're right but I have to ask; why on earth are you stuck in a core 3e game? It's been over a decade and 2 new versions of the game, 4 if you count PF 1e and 2e.
Core only really isn't the issue. The issue is that there's no way for a player to gain accurate information. The Sense Motive option gives information on a completely different scale. It's like asking for the weight of a car in pounds and telling me how many apples it weighs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The problem is this comes down to the following, all of which are out of the player's control:

Player control of anything but his own character is pretty minimal. Nothing for that but to accept it.


A: Does the DM allow this book? Complete with variants: The DM allows this book, but not this rule. The DM allows this book and this rule, but doesn't tell anyone about it (there's a lot of rules to know!). The DM allows this book but isn't aware of this particular rule.

I at least tacitly acknowledged this in my comment on core-only games. The completes are typically the first additions and -no one- knows all the rules. The GM not being aware of a thing isn't any more of a criticism against this than it is any other spell, feat, or class ability in the game.


B: The DM is very begrudging with information. Complete with variants: The DM answers questions like a Jedi. The DM thinks its cute to give you information that is basically useless. The DM roleplays your character for you and each character gets a different idea of how challenging the enemy is.

This is twisting the rules for the skill use to deliberately screw the player(s). It's something the GM can do to literally anything.

How much of a threat is that foe? Roll sense motive. It's (one of the five categories given.)


C: It's one of those weird rules that can produce wrong information.

And? Your character's ability to assess a threat isn't any more perfect than yours. You can increase ranks as you level and there's even a feat if you're really worried about it. If you get good at it later on, your likelihood of being wrong can be quite small.



D: It targets only a single opponent.

Description alone should be enough to give you, the player, some intuition on which foe in a group is likely the most dangerous of that group. If he's a major threat, the whole encounter should probably be fled. If he's not, it may be doable. If he's in the lowest categories, then it should be a fairly typical challenge.

Yeah, it's dicey at level one but so is literally everything. Few things have bluff at all and cha isn't generally massive on low CR opponents. Your odds should be better than even if you actually put ranks in the skill.



E: Its information is contextual.

I'm not sure how this is even a criticism. Of course it is. It would be regardless of the mechanism through which you got it.


F: It relies on the DM.

Everything does. No DM, no game. Any mechanic through which you gather information about your foes would be dependent on the GM unless the mechanic you choose is to simply memorize monster stats and metagame. Which I think we agree is an undesirable option?


The big issue is it relies on is the DM. The DM doesn't have perfect knowledge on if something is a challenge for you or not. They probably won't for several encounters and a couple levels. Secondly, it doesn't actually reveal the CR of the encounter, it reveals how close on the basis of HD the single enemy is to yourself. HD=/=CR. By this chart, a 1HD creature (like a badger) is a "fair fight". But only for you, not for your party. 2 Badgers is a CR 1 fight, same as the party. But each party member would see a badger as a "fair fight", and 4 badgers would be a CR 2 fight. Which even the Encounter Calculator lists as a "Very Difficult" fight.

It doesn't give you the exact CR but it does give you a window that you know that CR is in. Since your HD are equal to your level with most characters, you can see where that CR is relative to your level and it even says the GM should make an adjustment up or down if the foe is particularly vulnerable or resistant to your preferred method of combat.

If you look at a badger and say to yourself, "I could maybe take that in a fair fight," and then you see there are 3 more of them, you'd have to be just this side of brain-dead not to realize that the encounter on the whole represents a serious threat.


It does worse than giving no information. It gives bad information.

Only if you lose the opposed roll by 5 or more. Neither the DM nor any game mechanic can be blamed for a player's inability to correlate different pieces of information he has at his disposal.



Core only really isn't the issue. The issue is that there's no way for a player to gain accurate information. The Sense Motive option gives information on a completely different scale. It's like asking for the weight of a car in pounds and telling me how many apples it weighs.

If you know about how much an apple weighs and you're given the weight of a car in apples, you can get a decent estimate of how much the car weighs. Low level play is all about playing the odds. If you want certain, you shouldn't be playing a game with dice in the first place.

The only criticism you've levied here is that the GM might decide to screw with you or be incompetent. That's true for literally every aspect of the game in its entirety. The mechanic through which you determine if a situation is a threat or not is completely irrelevant in that case.

Availability of this option is the only thing that's really a question worth addressing here.

[Fizban]

I most certainly do. :smallbiggrin: Didn't intend it in a derogatory fashion, merely descriptive.

Ironically enough, just before those big posts in the "quadratic fighter" discussion, I was commenting to a friend that has to write some essays for a degree he's working at that I would find writing large papers to be a pain the back-side. :smallamused:
Knowledge+passion= spontaneous walls of text. The catch with essays for school is that you're writing them either to help gain, or demonstrate recently gained knowledge, rather than something you've already been doing for years, so it's just not as easy. And being told to do something now instead of deciding on your own time that you want to do something doesn't help.


The big issue is it relies on is the DM. The DM doesn't have perfect knowledge on if something is a challenge for you or not. They probably won't for several encounters and a couple levels.
Ehhhhhh, depends on how fresh the DM is. The DM has all the information, part of their job is making sure encounters are of appropriate difficulty, therefore the more experienced the DM the better they should be at estimating it. It's not hard to check the PC's stats against your monsters.

But you wish for something fully within the players' control?


Everything does. No DM, no game. Any mechanic through which you gather information about your foes would be dependent on the GM unless the mechanic you choose is to simply memorize monster stats and metagame. Which I think we agree is an undesirable option?
Well by some accounts metagaming was indeed the desired result of previous editions. . . but yeah.

Anyway, fully player dependent evaluation of monsters is still possible unless the DM is deliberately refusing basic visual information. Humanoid foes? You can see the weapons and armor they're using, those stats are all in the PHB, you know exactly what the base values are from them. Same with size bonuses. Need more info? "Hey, does that guy look stronger than Bob the fighter?" Now you have some idea of their attack and damage bonus. Natural armor also has visible descriptors. Natural weapons follow the same size patterns as weapons, which you can deduce once you've seen a few of them, allowing you to guess at the dice for those (oh it's a Large wolf, the wolf we fought had a d6 bite, this probably has d8 [of course the Dire Wolf's real threat is the mega strength bonus]). Sure you can't guess at magic or supernatural abilities right off the bat, but level appropriate foes for 1st level parties are not the type with tons of magic- they're pests. And with humanoids being the most common, you have half their statblock just by looking at them.

As for the Sense Motive evaluation, well it's one of the reasons I decided Fighters should have Sense Motive. The imprecision of the base effect is annoying until you have enough bonus, but the real killer is the standard action activation: combine with impatient players that must A-move every turn and the possibility that a hard fight could turn into a loss because you spent an action trying to figure out how hard it was, well that's a bummer. I've considered giving Fighters an extra set of bonus feats from a special list of "non-offense" feats, in order to get them to take defensive/information/etc feats, and again the Combat Intuition feat is a big part of that reasoning. But my list of prospective players is low enough power that I need to keep a reign on my buffs rather than pushing the op level even further past them.

[Yahzi Coyote]

Hey all, I was just wondering if anyone here has any tricks for DM’ing a good game starting at level 1.
I do. I wrote up an adventure called Humble Beginnings (available on DriveThruRPG for free) which I used to start my current campaign at level 0. It worked great! You can read the recap on my blog or here on GitP (just search for World of Prime Campaign Journal).

The players started with 1 stat at 12 and the rest at 10, 1 point in a peasant profession craft skill, and 4 hps. They fought little goblins with sticks and rocks and worked their way through five sub-class levels, gaining a hit point or a skill rank with each advance. It was a great way to introduce the new players to D&D, the group to each other, and the players to my world. And now the party is still going strong, almost 2 years later. That common origin from dirt farmer to hero really bound them together.