[3.5] [Bard] Need help building a bard and determine a good path to take please!

[m149307]

My group and I will be starting a new campaign at level 1 and moving to epic levels. I'm completely new to bards and their playstyle so looking for help to create a character that can be helpful to the overall group while not being relegated to the sidelines. I'll give direct info to give a clear picture.

My current party will consist of a rogue/scout, swashbuckler/rogue, fighter/cleric, monk going into tattooed monk, and a sorcerer. One of the rogues will be ranged. I'm not sure how to best compliment this group since it's 3 melee, 1 ranged, and an arcane caster.

Now onto the character info/allowed stuff:
I rolled the following stats
15
13
12
14
14
12

Books allowed: PHB 1&2, DMG, Arms and Equipment Guide, Complete series except for Complete Psionics and Champion. Flaws are not allowed, nor are traits. I'll be starting with 100 gp

[Kayblis]

In my experience, you can choose one of two options to focus your playstyle - either invest hard in Bardic Music or invest hard in spellcasting.

Bardic Music is usually done by stacking feats, items and mechanics like Words of Creation to add ludicrous bonuses to your allies whenever you sing, and sing every time you can. I'll recommend to look up a Bard Handbook if you want to invest in this style, as usually it requires many moving parts from different books and the list is pretty large.

Spellcasting is traditionally done by entering Sublime Chord, a PrC from Complete Arcane(allowed for you), which progresses your spellcasting up to 9th level while keeping the bardic theme. This allows you to sing when needed, even though that's not your focus. This is definitely a very powerful option, but it plays more like a full caster with extra abilities than a dedicated bard.

[gorfnab]

Some light reading:
The Bard's Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8686)
New Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/)
Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8936)

One build I like that fits in your restricted book list is Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. This nets some continued Bardic Music advancement as well as 9th level spells (the spellcasting advancement of the Virtuoso levels is chosen as each level is taken, so levels 2-9 of Virtuoso advance Sublime Chord spellcasting).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is going to be amazing if you focus on buffing your party in combat.

Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) is regarded as being better than the standard Bard, that's from UA.

You want to use a dragonblood race, preferably Silverbrow Human or Stonehunter Gnome or Forestlord Half-Elf in Dragon Magic, or Spellscale in Races of the Dragon, depending on what racial substitution levels you prefer. The Half-Elf Bard 1 substitution level for Soothing Voice is probably the best of what's available. I prefer to use Silverbrow Human for a bonus feat, since the seldom-used songs can be traded out for ACFs anyway.

If you still have them (i.e. they weren't replaced by a substitution level), swap for the following alternate class features: Replace Countersong with Spellbreaker Song (CM). Replace Fascinate with Healing Hymn (CC). Plan to trade your Suggestion song for the feat Song of the Heart (ECS). Consider trading Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack (PH2) once you've read each of them and considered how useful either will be later on.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats. I'd get Love of Nature and probably Vulnerable. Your starting feats should be Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), Melodic Casting (CM), Dragonfire Inspiration (DM), and choose from Nymph's Kiss (BoED), or get either Obscure Lore or Jack of All Trades, both in CV and depending on whether you went with Bardic Knack.

Look at the skill requirements of your ACFs and your feat selections, make sure you have sufficient ranks in each of those to get everything. Max out at least one Perform skill, singing is probably easiest for combat but string instruments offer some really good masterwork and magical items. Remember that with Bardic Knack and Jack of All Trades you can use every perform skill as though you're proficient. Always max out Use Magic Device. Also look at the skill tricks in CS, particularly the ones that use Balance and Tumble, and be sure to get sufficient ranks to pick up any that look interesting.

As soon as you get 1st level spells you'll want to learn Inspirational Boost (SC). You also want to pick up a Badge of Valor (MIC) as soon as possible, market price is only 1,200 gp, so any small city (population over 5k) should have one available for purchase (DMG Table 5-2, p137). So your Inspire Courage is +1, Dragonfire Inspiration converts that to adding 1d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks, including ranged weapons and your animal cohort's natural weapons. Inspirational Boost increases that to 2d6 fire damage, and the Badge of Valor increases that to 3d6 fire damage. When you hit 6th level and trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart, that's increased to 4d6 fire damage. When you hit Bard 8 that goes up to 5d6 fire damage.

You'll want to also take the feat Words of Creation (BoED) at 6th level, which doubles your Inspire Courage bonus (but the Badge of Valor is always added last), so that increases it to 7d6 fire damage at 6th level, and 9d6 at 8th level. This requires an exalted status, which it may be necessary to establish at character creation by taking Nymph's Kiss and simply maintain it throughout your career. If your party isn't going to be a bunch of goody-two-shoes, or if your DM likes to do lose-lose situations for characters with a good-aligned code of conduct, you may as well just forget these exist.

Your 3rd level feat can be Obtain Familiar (CA), and your 6th or 9th level feat can be Improved Familiar (DMG, CW). The best improved familiar to get is an Imp or Quasit, you can take the feat at 6th and then wait until 7th to summon the better one. If you're going the exalted route, the pseudodragon is probably best, or get something from the CW list (Blink Dog is amazing with a Wand of Benign Transposition).

Your first six levels should be Bard, you may want to take your first eight levels in it as you'll have Bard 8 by 10th level regardless. Dip one level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level, this gets Draconic Heritage and you want to pick Battle Dragon or any other with a sonic energy type. This switches Dragonfire Inspiration to sonic damage, which almost nothing is immune or resistant to, and you can cast Creaking Cacophony (SC) to increase that damage by 50%. Having a level of Sorcerer also allows you to use wands of Sorcerer spells without rolling UMD, and gets you a few utility spells (Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter). You're going to need one more dip to get you to 10th level, Mindbender 1 if you're not good-aligned is absolutely amazing, Dragon Devotee 1 gets you +2 Cha and +1 natural armor and is on-theme, or Virtuoso 1 if you want to finish the build with it is a good choice.

At 11th level you're taking Sublime Chord, this isn't optional. Since you're going epic, you need to have higher level spells, and it's a logical progression for a spellcasting Bard. Take only one or two levels of that, and finish the build with a prestige class that advances it at every level. Going Savage Bard 8/ Sorcerer 1/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 1 or 2/ Virtuoso 9+ is decent. Progressing Sublime Chord with something like Sacred Exorcist (which allows you to use divine feats and gets better BAB) or Paragnostic Apostle (for only as many levels as you can pick decent abilities for) or Spelldancer (which can break the game with Persistent spells) or Incantatrix (which can break the game with Persistent spells) or Divine Oracle (Evasion and Uncanny Dodge in four levels) or dip Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1 (BAB, saves, weapon proficiency, reduces ACF for a heavy mithral shield) or any number of other prestige classes that suit your fancy. As long as you get 10/10 Sublime Chord spellcasting progression at 11th-20th level, the build is good.

In the epic levels, you probably want to continue advancing your Bard spellcasting until it's maxed out, or even advance your Sorcerer spellcasting (with prestige classes). Just look through all the books for classes that can advance arcane spellcasting. You can even dip Psion or Wilder or Ardent and take Cerebremancer, or dip Cleric and take Mystic Theurge, or dip Incarnate and take Soulcaster, or dip Binder and take Anima Mage. Literally anything your character would want to learn that will make you stronger.

For your items, plan to get an Elvencraft Composite Shortbow (RotW) which is Masterwork twice (club and bow portions) and with two wand chambers in Dungeonscape. Get a Wand of Wings of Cover once you have the Sorcerer dip, per the Rules compendium a wand, staff, or scroll takes the same action to activate as the spell being used. Get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), anyone who can cast arcane spells can use an eternal wand and that benefits from your Inspire Courage. Your familiar, if you obtain one, can use your skill ranks including UMD (but not Bardic Knack skills), so give it some wands of spells like Web, Benign Transposition, Sleet Storm, etc.

[tiercel]

Welp, guess it’s time to play devil’s advocate.

Want to play a bard? Play a bard.

While it’s not too shocking that everyone so far has mentioned Sublime Chord as a straight power boost, and it is of course a strong option, let me present some counterarguments:


If you want to play a sorcerer, why not PLAY a sorcerer, instead of waiting 10 levels to become a sorcerer/bard theurge?
Your party already HAS a sorcerer
From the information at hand, your party doesn’t necessarily seem to prioritize high levels of mechanical optimization; “only” bard, well played, will already be potentially one of the strongest characters in the party
If the only thing your bard ever did was even modestly optimized Inspire Courage*, with all the hitters in your party they will LOVE you. If you don’t need to place tons of prerequisite skill ranks in Craft (character sheet) and Profession (read lots of supplement books), you can actually just own being the social skillmonkey, if that matters in your game at all (and with enough Diplomacy, Bluff, et al. you can make it matter)
Bard is awesomesauce and you have a great party in which to shine “even only” as a single-classed bard, plus you can squeeze benefits out of bard-level dependent effects, depending your access to them; still, if you want a light gish-in-a-can with awesome social and strong music, the best PrC for your bard may be MOAR BARD


*how much you optimize Inspire Courage, really, REALLY depends on your gaming group and DM; if +8 to hit and +8d6+8 damage to every attack is going to shatter your game into tiny, tinkling, viciously sharp little glass shards, you might want to tone it down a bit; also being Exalted, even if it’s allowed in your game, can be a RP nightmare that makes maintaining a Paladin’s code of conduct look like taking candy away from a sickly, sleeping baby who is not even holding onto the candy

One of the tricks to bard IS figuring out how you want to specialize, since trying too hard for “jack of all trades” really does leave you as master of none, and while Inspire Courage can be as strong as your/your group’s lactose tolerance can handle, investing all your build in a more-or-less passive ability can leave you feeling like a more-or-less walking magic item.

If you want to optimize “singing spellcaster,” fine, go Dark Side and join the legions of Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso/Doctor/Plumber/Astral Typist/Unnecessarily Long Prestige Class Chain builds. If you want to optimize “singing fighter,” twist your DM’s arm until you get Book of the “Only Real Melee” Classes allowed and go Song of the White Raven with Bardsader or Bardblade builds — otherwise, just go old-school skald War Chanter style (Complete Warrior).

But if you want to go full-throated bard, go bard. Win everything with your Talk No Jutsu; if that fails or gets boring, you’re still the aforementioned buff-your-party-into-Beastmode gish-in-a-can by going straight Bard 20 (possibly Savage Bard, or straight up, picking from tasty tasty Bard ACFs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-(ported-from-Wizards-community-boards)) and even bardic music feats) and right into the inanity of Epic singing your foes into friends or into oblivion, at your whim.

[Malphegor]

If you can get dragonfire inspiration (basically get dragonblood subtype somehow), then at least then you're not just inspiring your friends... you can choose to make their weapons be on fire! (which actually helps a little with enhancing weapons- if you have a reliable way to make your weapons on fire, you might seek alternative magics to place in your weapons than the dull fire enhancements)

Then find a character who can land a lot of hits and make them your buddy, even if they do next to no damage, because now they're doing a lotta fire damage.

Your Swashbuckler might be ok at this if they've gone for the usual Craven and sneak attack boosting methods, since while they attacks are kind of mild, the sneak attack they're getting every round with a bluff check now does a bucketload of damage, plus the fire damage you're adding onto that.



Race may be worth looking into depending on the kind of bard you wanna play. Do you wanna look vaguely human? Or is there an animal you wouldn't mind being?

Illumian might be handy if you're looking at multiclass- they're basically humans who made themselves into living words made flesh, one of the power glyph combos is good for spellcaster multiclasses. Oh, or you can probably convert your bonus spells to strength dex if you want to be more melee based.

[Kaleph]

Want to play a bard? Play a bard.

My advice as well. In addition, besides the obvious sublime-chord-based strategies, some convoluted builds full of prestige classes could be not that good as a simple bard 20.

[m149307]

@Kayblis Honestly I feel like I'd be more suited to the spellcasting version since I can't get my hands on Dragonfire Inspiration or Words of Creation

@Gorfnab I will definitely check those out, thank you!

@Biffoniacus_Furiou I thank you for your detailed reply, but it doesn't fit my situation since I have restrictions on books that don't allow for what you recommended.

@tiercel playing straight bard does sound fun, is it possible to do the spellcaster focus and work on my Inspire Courage to increase it a bit? Also my DM has banned ToB without chance of using it, I've tried lol

@Malphegor I'm unable to get dragonfire due to it not being in an approved book.

What would be options for feats on a straight bard 20 who wants to stay ranged?

[BaronDoctor]

What would be options for feats on a straight bard 20 who wants to stay ranged?

Well, off a Web article there's Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) which gives Cha instead of Dex to ranged attacks. Requires Fey typing, though.

Given your book limitations, a Killoren (RotW) could be something your DM might budge on. Aspect of the Destroyer gives you a 1/hour (up to Cha Mod / day) Smite "aberrations, constructs, humanoids, oozes, outsiders, and undead". Which fits nicely with your Bard shtick.

Otherwise, Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack (worth trading out Bardic Knowledge for) lets you make any skill check.

Improved Initiative is a staple "limited books hard to go wrong" feat. Dropping your Inspire first will make you friends with anybody on your side holding a weapon.

Obtain Familiar might be nice if you want to deliver touch spells into melee without going there yourself.

Shame Knowledge Devotion is off your list.

Your Perform should be something that doesn't take your hands away and can't be taken from you. Whether that's poetry, singing, whistling, whatever.

Bard 20 technically doesn't need its feats, so an archer bard takes any archery feats you want (Rapid Shot gets you an extra shot at a penalty your Inspire Courage can mitigate).

The Complete Adventurer Badge of Valor item lets you pump your Inspire Courage by 1, 3 times per day. It's also cheap enough your buddies would probably be willing to go in on it (seeing as it would be the equivalent of getting them all another +1 to their weapons for 1200 gp? It's a steal.)