Is the Maug misprinted? It's a playable, nonliving construct as written

[Katie Boundary]

Fiend Folio, page 121:


MAUG
Large Construct (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 2d10+30 (41 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (can’t run)
(bla bla bla)
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 12

FF page 122:


maugs are nonliving constructs

It's a nonliving construct, lacking the living construct subtype, and it has no constitution score. So players shouldn't be able to play as one, right?

FF page 123:


Because of its many special abilities, a maug player character’s effective character level (ECL) is equal to its class level + 5.

http://www.dumbdrum.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/head_explode-470x327.jpg

[Railak]

You're thinking intelligence, it needs to have an intelligence score over 2, other than that it's fair game. You can play as undead as well, they don't have a Constitution score.

[Katie Boundary]

I thought it needed both, and that's why literally every other golem, animated object, and nonliving construct in the game was not suited for use as a PC race? Same deal with undead. What undead races are playable as written?

[RedWarlock]

Quite a few. Look at Libris Mortis, several undead have monster progression classes, and the Necropolitan is an easy low-level, minimal-other-benefit undead template for any race.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The general guidelines for what's playable are in savage species. You need;

INT > 2
The ability to speak
complex manipulation limbs

Everything else is negotiable. Even the latter two of thsoe aren't -strictly- required but playing a character without either, much less both, presents a greater challenge than most players and DMs are or should be interested in (it'll get to be a headache, fast.)

Maug not only meet all of these 3 requirements but even have a listed ECL before class levels. While mindless creatures aren't at all suitable for PCs, unliving ones only pose a minor challenge in most cases. If my recollection of default lore is correct, maug are uncommon on the material plane but beyond that and being difficult to heal, they don't pose any particularly great problems for a player or DM.

As for your final question, most creatures printed after the 3.5 changeover will have a level adjustment listed unless the sum of their racial HD and LA would exceed 20. This includes a variety of undead and even some constructs. The necropolitan in Libris Mortis is an undead PC race by design.

[Katie Boundary]

Quite a few. Look at Libris Mortis, several undead have monster progression classes, and the Necropolitan is an easy low-level, minimal-other-benefit undead template for any race.

Well I'll be damned. The Ghast, Ghoul, Mhorg, Mummy, Vampire Spawn, and Wight from the Monster Manual are all retroactively made quasi-playable via the LA table in that book! Unfortunately, it looks like none of the other undead races in that book are intended for PC use, and necropolitan is an acquired template, not an inherited one. Nonetheless, your point is well made.


As for your final question, most creatures printed after the 3.5 changeover will have a level adjustment listed unless the sum of their racial HD and LA would exceed 20.

While that may be true, I don't think it's the answer to any of the questions posted here.

[Particle_Man]

Also, if you really want to you can take 10 levels of Green Star Adept to “earn” a lack of a con score as a pc who becomes a construct. This prestige class is usually seen as sub-optimal, mind you.

[Anthrowhale]

Maug's are ok as an ECL+3 race. Large + good stats + good immunities are each plausibly worth a +1. The construct HD are a bit of a drag.

They are also a natural target for Incarnate Construct which would trades immunities for ECL+1.

[Mr Adventurer]

The (living construct) subtype didn't exist when Maug were printed, I believe. Fiend Folio is a 3.0 book IIRC, and I think the subtype came in with the Eberron Campaign Setting for Warforged?

[RedMage125]

The (living construct) subtype didn't exist when Maug were printed, I believe. Fiend Folio is a 3.0 book IIRC, and I think the subtype came in with the Eberron Campaign Setting for Warforged?

This is all correct.

There was a 3.5 Update packet pdf that was free when 3.5e was released, but that still predates Eberron by a few months.

[Katie Boundary]

Fiend Folio is a 3.0 book IIRC

Yes, by only 3 months.

FF = April 2003

3.5 PHB = July 2003

However, I don't think that the rules changed regarding the playability of races with no constitution score. What we have here is a neat little sort of prototype or predecessor to Warforged, as well as a race that doesn't work very well with arrays or point-buy methods of generating ability scores.

[Deadline]

However, I don't think that the rules changed regarding the playability of races with no constitution score.

I'm curious, do you have a reference for this? It's the first I've heard of it. I'm aware of the restriction on playable critters who don't have at least an Int of 3, but don't recall anything about a restriction on races that don't have a Con score.

Is it buried in the MM glossary somewhere?

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, by only 3 months.



Didn't really matter by how much.

It does mean you can't really assume it'll all slot together with later 3.5, though.


However, I don't think that the rules changed regarding the playability of races with no constitution scores.

What rules?

[ShurikVch]

Note: there is "playable" Construct with "Con —" right in the Core - Zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut).

[Deadline]

What rules?

The rules references I could find with a few minutes of searching are here, which don't cover ability scores of -.

Playable races information here:

Use the lists as guidlines, but don't allow players to play creatures who have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower, who have no way to communicate, or who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign.

and here:

The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable, and you should think twice about letting in a PC with any ability score lower than 3.

An ability score of 0 is not equivalent to an ability score of -, so it's not really applicable, but I've seen many people equate the two.

[Katie Boundary]

What rules?

More precisely, the lack of them. I just thought that there was one, due to the fact that 99.9% of nonliving creatures with a constitution of "---" were unplayable. Turns out I was wrong.


Note: there is "playable" Construct with "Con —" right in the Core - Zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut).

While Zelekhuts do have a level adjustment, they do not have a "Zelekhuts as characters" blurb explicitly confirming their suitability for PC use like Maugs do. I therefore put them in the "pseudo-playable" or "implicitly unplayable" tier.

[KillianHawkeye]

necropolitan is an acquired template, not an inherited one.

Just curious if there's a specific reason that you pointed this out? Most things are not born undead, so it makes sense for undead templates to be acquired. That doesn't have any bearing on their playability, though. PCs aren't limited to inherited templates.

[Mr Adventurer]

While Zelekhuts do have a level adjustment, they do not have a "Zelekhuts as characters" blurb explicitly confirming their suitability for PC use like Maugs do. I therefore put them in the "pseudo-playable" or "implicitly unplayable" tier.

SRD general rules for monsters as characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#startingLevelofaMonsterPC):

"Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics."

[Katie Boundary]

Just curious if there's a specific reason that you pointed this out? Most things are not born undead, so it makes sense for undead templates to be acquired. That doesn't have any bearing on their playability, though. PCs aren't limited to inherited templates.

Acquired templates often have to be acquired in-game, in a process that costs gold, XP, time, and/or some other resource instead of level adjustment. Letting players start out with the templates instead of paying for them is cheating a bit, don't you think? Similarly, would you allow players to play as Dragonborn without going through the Rite of Rebirth? I wouldn't.


SRD general rules for monsters as characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#startingLevelofaMonsterPC):

"Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics."

Yes, but that doesn't mean that all monsters with level adjustments are suitable for PC use. For example, the 3.5e Monster Manual I, printed in 2003, gives level adjustments for True Dragons, yet by the time Races of the Dragon was printed in 2006, True Dragons were still not considered playable: "Despite our enjoyment at encountering dragons in our games, however, playing one is not an option in most campaigns... Many of us are still wishing we could play a dragon somehow".

[Mr Adventurer]

Acquired templates often have to be acquired in-game, in a process that costs gold, XP, time, and/or some other resource instead of level adjustment. Letting players start out with the templates instead of paying for them is cheating a bit, don't you think? Similarly, would you allow players to play as Dragonborn without going through the Rite of Rebirth? I wouldn't.

If a template has a level adjustment, it applies regardless of whether you acquire it in play or before play starts. If it has a cost, it can (usually) be paid before play starts. (If the cost is XP or gp, obviously characters have to be being brought in at a level with enough of that to spare.)

Of course a character can begin play as a Dragonborn. The player specifies the details of their Rite of Rebirth as part of their character background.

[Katie Boundary]

If a template has a level adjustment, it applies regardless of whether you acquire it in play or before play starts.

Yes, i'm aware. And that doesn't have anything to do with what we're discussing.


If it has a cost, it can (usually) be paid before play starts. (If the cost is XP or gp, obviously characters have to be being brought in at a level with enough of that to spare.)

In the case of Necropolitans, it costs a level, making it a much better deal for low-level characters than for high-level ones. Table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG indicates that players starting out as low as level 4 will have enough gold to pay for the Ritual of Crucimigration. A player who takes Necropolitan during character-creation, in a campaign that starts at level 4, will be able to regain the lost levels/xp extremely rapidly. That's the sort of exploitability that resulted in the Level Equivalent system being replaced with Level Adjustment and ECL.

Letting players use acquired templates during character-creation might not be an explicit violation of RAW, but complications like this are why it's usually a bad idea.


Of course a character can begin play as a Dragonborn. The player specifies the details of their Rite of Rebirth as part of their character background.

Sure. And we'll just let them skip going through the trouble of acquiring a handful of metallic dragon scales (needed for the ritual). Why make players work for rewards? Just give them everything for free :rolleyes:

Actually, since starting players out at a level higher than 1 is giving them free stuff and is 100% endorsed by RAW, that's not a problem. The problem is uneven distribution of free stuff. Therefore, I'd allow this on the condition that (a) all players start out with a handful of metallic dragon scales except the Dragonborn player, and (b) the Dragonborn player can't start playing until everyone else has been playing for 48 in-game hours. Or if everyone takes Dragonborn during character-creation.

Again, it's not necessarily an explicit violation of RAW, just a bad idea.

[weckar]

INT > 2
The ability to speak
complex manipulation limbs Even the ability to speak was something they went back and forth on... Isn't there a race in I want to say planar handbook, that has like a racial vow of non-speech?

[Katie Boundary]

Even the ability to speak was something they went back and forth on... Isn't there a race in I want to say planar handbook, that has like a racial vow of non-speech?

Vows are not physical inabilities, though. Vows are cultural. Inabilities are racial. Player characters can break whatever vows they want. The lower-caste Formians, for example, are physically unable to speak, and I'm about 99% sure that this was the reason why they're explicitly unplayable ("Level adjustment: ---") but Abeils, Dromites, and Thri-Kreen are all fair game.

[Katie Boundary]

Oh, new catch:


The general guidelines for what's playable are in savage species. You need;

INT > 2
The ability to speak
complex manipulation limbs

The Ixitchatl or whatever the hell they're called, from the MMII, do not know any languages OR have limbs, and are exclusively underwater creatures on top of that, but are nonetheless explicitly playable and even advance by character class.

I have no idea how that's supposed to work.

[KillianHawkeye]

Letting players start out with the templates instead of paying for them is cheating a bit, don't you think?

Nobody said they shouldn't pay for them. That doesn't mean they can't start with them.


Similarly, would you allow players to play as Dragonborn without going through the Rite of Rebirth? I wouldn't.

No, but there's literally nothing stopping them from going through the Rite of Rebirth during character creation.


In the case of Necropolitans, it costs a level, making it a much better deal for low-level characters than for high-level ones. Table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG indicates that players starting out as low as level 4 will have enough gold to pay for the Ritual of Crucimigration. A player who takes Necropolitan during character-creation, in a campaign that starts at level 4, will be able to regain the lost levels/xp extremely rapidly. That's the sort of exploitability that resulted in the Level Equivalent system being replaced with Level Adjustment and ECL.

Letting players use acquired templates during character-creation might not be an explicit violation of RAW, but complications like this are why it's usually a bad idea.

It's not even an implicit violation of the rules. Or much of a complication, to be honest. You're actually supposed to be able to make up for lost xp. That's the way the game was designed, and in this case it is functioning as intended.


Sure. And we'll just let them skip going through the trouble of acquiring a handful of metallic dragon scales (needed for the ritual). Why make players work for rewards? Just give them everything for free :rolleyes:

Actually, since starting players out at a level higher than 1 is giving them free stuff and is 100% endorsed by RAW, that's not a problem. The problem is uneven distribution of free stuff. Therefore, I'd allow this on the condition that (a) all players start out with a handful of metallic dragon scales except the Dragonborn player, and (b) the Dragonborn player can't start playing until everyone else has been playing for 48 in-game hours. Or if everyone takes Dragonborn during character-creation.

Again, it's not necessarily an explicit violation of RAW, just a bad idea.

"Just give them everything for free", eh? That's not a straw man argument at all! {scrubbed}

I just want you to know that this isn't anywhere near as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. {scrubbed}

If it makes you feel better, you can assign a reasonable gp value to the requisite dragon scales (if there isn't one already) and make the player take it out of his starting wealth. {scrubbed}

[Katie Boundary]

Declaring "I went through the ritual" during character-creation is not the same thing as actually going through it.


You're actually supposed to be able to make up for lost xp. That's the way the game was designed, and in this case it is functioning as intended.

I doubt that. A level-3 necropolitan character in an ECL 4 party is enjoying the benefits of a template worth +1 LA, but will enjoy the leveling speed of a ECL 3 character. They'll hit level 4 long before everyone else hits level 5, and will maintain this power edge indefinitely. That's why Level Equivalent was chucked and replaced with Level Adjustment.


{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I don't need protection from logic or rational thinking. I AM the logic and rational thinking. I'M the one who knocks.

[weckar]

If characters start beyond lv 1, literally anything can have happened in those earlier levels off-screen.

[Katie Boundary]

If characters start beyond lv 1, literally anything can have happened in those earlier levels off-screen.

But emulating the long-term effects of that "literally anything" in a fair way can be a pain in the butt.

[animewatcha]

What would incarnate construct due to maug aside from turning it's LA 5 to LA 3 ?

[Zombulian]

What would incarnate construct due to maug aside from turning it's LA 5 to LA 3 ?

Their LA is +3, not +5. +1 LA with 2 Giant HD isn’t a terrible deal.

[Afghanistan]

If it makes you feel better, you can assign a reasonable gp value to the requisite dragon scales (if there isn't one already) and make the player take it out of his starting wealth.

The cost of going through the transformation is already in the ritual: 100gp. The way the text is worded states that the metallic dragon scales are merely a component of the ritual egg.



If characters start beyond lv 1, literally anything can have happened in those earlier levels off-screen.

But emulating the long-term effects of that "literally anything" in a fair way can be a pain in the butt.


Declaring "I went through the ritual" during character-creation is not the same thing as actually going through it.

I am confident most players would be amiable to write up their backstory on how they came to be a Dragonborn or a Necropolitan or any other number of inherited templates since doing so, at least according to the fluff, is a big deal and should be a major part of the character's development and or backstory. Furthermore, that stuff is all fluff and can be adjusted with cooperation from the DM and the player. It's not that much of a stretch to adjust these things, unless all of your Sorcerers are descended from Dragons or Outsiders, all of your Monks belong to monasteries, and all of your Initiators follow the teachings of the Temple of the Nine Blades. Fluff is mutable, mechanics are mutable, but through cooperation.


I don't need protection from logic or rational thinking. I AM the logic and rational thinking. I'M the one who knocks.

{scrubbed}

[Kelb_Panthera]

Even the ability to speak was something they went back and forth on... Isn't there a race in I want to say planar handbook, that has like a racial vow of non-speech?

Indeed. They're called Buoman and IIRC they take a stacking penalty for breaking their vow until the next day.


Yes, but that doesn't mean that all monsters with level adjustments are suitable for PC use. For example, the 3.5e Monster Manual I, printed in 2003, gives level adjustments for True Dragons, yet by the time Races of the Dragon was printed in 2006, True Dragons were still not considered playable: "Despite our enjoyment at encountering dragons in our games, however, playing one is not an option in most campaigns... Many of us are still wishing we could play a dragon somehow".

That quote is not about rules it's about trends. Dragons have been playable since their LAs were introduced in the MM. From before that, actually; Savage species gave them LA and has guidelines for how to handle non-standard PCs. They're simply vetoed by most GMs for various reasons ranging from the perfectly valid "it's a child and it has no thumbs" to the purely taste-based "dragons are too special to be PCs." Seriously "... in most campaigns..."

[unseenmage]

...

That quote is not about rules it's about trends. Dragons have been playable since their LAs were introduced in the MM. From before that, actually; Savage species gave them LA and has guidelines for how to handle non-standard PCs. They're simply vetoed by most GMs for various reasons ranging from the perfectly valid "it's a child and it has no thumbs" to the purely taste-based "dragons are too special to be PCs." Seriously "... in most campaigns..."
Didnt Dragon mag have a LA for practically the entire first MM before SS came out?

[Katie Boundary]

The point is, it's not reasonable for a person to just bring a character with an acquired template to a table and expect to be able to play that character with no questions asked like they usually can with inherited templates. Necropolitan is therefore a poor example of a playable undead "race".

Anyway, for reasons that I'm about to explain in detail in a different thread, I've figured out that my question is based on a false premise, and not the one that I started out with. Maugs are printed correctly, but unplayable as written for reasons that have nothing to do with Constitution scores or being a construct.

[unseenmage]

The point is, it's not reasonable for a person to just bring a character with an acquired template to a table and expect to be able to play that character with no questions asked like they usually can with inherited templates. Necropolitan is therefore a poor example of a playable undead "race".

Anyway, for reasons that I'm about to explain in detail in a different thread, I've figured out that my question is based on a false premise, and not the one that I started out with. Maugs are printed correctly, but unplayable as written for reasons that have nothing to do with Constitution scores or being a construct.
It is completely reasonable.
Starting characters are expected to have mechanically useful backstories.

The monk recieved martial arts instruction.
The druid learned an explicitly secret language.
The wizard gained an expensive familiar and equally expensive spellbook (seriously, give those as loot sometime!)

At character creation means more than just class levels.
Player wants to be a Lich or vampire in a high level game? Let 'em. That's where their fun is. Why deny someone that unless absolutely necessary?

[Coidzor]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that all monsters with level adjustments are suitable for PC use. For example, the 3.5e Monster Manual I, printed in 2003, gives level adjustments for True Dragons, yet by the time Races of the Dragon was printed in 2006, True Dragons were still not considered playable: "Despite our enjoyment at encountering dragons in our games, however, playing one is not an option in most campaigns... Many of us are still wishing we could play a dragon somehow".

That's not something that should be taken as a statement of the rules of the game but instead a commentary on what the landscape was actually like for people playing the game. Especially when you take into account the Racial HD and level adjustments of most forms of Dragon that are not Wyrmlings or Young.

[Katie Boundary]

Player wants to be a Lich or vampire in a high level game? Let 'em.

Those are the key words, aren't they? Level 4 is not high.

[Afghanistan]

Those are the key words, aren't they? Level 4 is not high.

It doesn't matter if they are ECL 4 or ECL 15. If they meet the minimum requirements for the template, it is from an allowed source, and their final ECL is within your required ECL I see no issue with letting them apply it regardless if it is the Lich Template, the Half Dragon Template, the Necropolitan Template, or the Phrenic Template.

[unseenmage]

It doesn't matter if they are ECL 4 or ECL 15. If they meet the minimum requirements for the template, it is from an allowed source, and their final ECL is within your required ECL I see no issue with letting them apply it regardless if it is the Lich Template, the Half Dragon Template, the Necropolitan Template, or the Phrenic Template.
Agreed.

Seriously, templates are there to be used to expand upon the potential existing creatures in the gameworld.
Templates with LA are explicitly provided such for player use.

On top of that any LA at all is such a raw deal that you're very rarely going to suffer a monstrous or templated character who is overpowered, more likely they'll have the opposite problem because class levels are just that darned important to being able to function in a level based game.

You dont like early access to templates? Fine. But call it what it is. Your preference. It's not a rule. It's not that the game isn't designed for their use in that manner.

The very fact that LA +0 templates exist tells us that they're supposed to be used at char gen. If they wernt they'd have LA +1 now wouldn't they?

[Particle_Man]

It doesn't matter if they are ECL 4 or ECL 15. If they meet the minimum requirements for the template, it is from an allowed source, and their final ECL is within your required ECL I see no issue with letting them apply it regardless if it is the Lich Template, the Half Dragon Template, the Necropolitan Template, or the Phrenic Template.

Well the Lich template is +4 LA, so minimum level 5 equivalent even if somehow a first level spellcaster stumbled into lichdom. Which would be amusing as heck, come to think of it.
This wimply little 1 HD/1 level of spellcasting wizard that keeps getting killed and coming back due to the phylactery. :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, my idea has run aground on the shoals of the rules:

"Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation."

So minimum ECL 15.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The point is, it's not reasonable for a person to just bring a character with an acquired template to a table and expect to be able to play that character with no questions asked like they usually can with inherited templates.

Why not? Because you feel that way? The game rules and guidelines are pretty clear. If it has a level adjustment, it's playable as long as its ECL is not dramatically out of line with the other PCs until and unless a DM explicitly vetoes it for some personal reason.


Necropolitan is therefore a poor example of a playable undead "race".

Necropolitan is -the- undead race for PCs. It's all but explicitly stated to be so. If you actually read the chapter on having undead PCs and then compare it to what a necropolitan is, the intent is quite obvious.


Anyway, for reasons that I'm about to explain in detail in a different thread, I've figured out that my question is based on a false premise, and not the one that I started out with. Maugs are printed correctly, but unplayable as written for reasons that have nothing to do with Constitution scores or being a construct.

I'm not at all certain where you're getting this idea. Maug are explicitly playable by the rules and even by their own entry. It takes only a GM that chooses not to disallow it and a party of the appropriate ECL. A GM can choose to disallow halflings if he feels they're inappropriate to his setting, that doesn't make them unplayable by default.

[Katie Boundary]

If they meet the minimum requirements for the template, it is from an allowed source, and their final ECL is within your required ECL

{scrubbed}


You dont like early access to templates?

{scrubbed}


Why not? Because you feel that way?

{scrubbed}


I'm not at all certain where you're getting this idea. Maug are explicitly playable by the rules and even by their own entry.

Yeah, that was how I interpreted the monster descriptions too for the past couple of years. Then I realized that I was wrong. A detailed explanation can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?599881).

[KillianHawkeye]

The point is, it's not reasonable for a person to just bring a character with an acquired template to a table and expect to be able to play that character with no questions asked like they usually can with inherited templates. Necropolitan is therefore a poor example of a playable undead "race".

Moving the goal posts much?

First of all, nobody should just show up to a game with a character and expect to play it without it being looked over and discussed with the DM, regardless of what kind of character it is. I reject your claim that inherited templates would be allowed in most games with "no questions asked". Why are you suddenly changing the subject here?

Secondly, ANY usage of templates should absolutely discussed with your DM beforehand regardless of whether it is an inherited or acquired template. Seriously, the type of template is irrelevant to this fact. The DM is fully within his right to veto any and all templates in his games (as well as races, generally speaking), and on no account should anybody be just assuming that something is going to be allowed.

In my experience, a DM decides from the beginning whether to allow creatures with Level Adjustment as PCs (and how much of a LA range is allowed) or to keep things to standard LA +0 races. Usually at the same time they decide the starting level of the adventure.

But again, and I can't stress this enough, I don't see any difference between a template that your character is born with and one that they happened to get along the way during their backstory. IMO, a template should only be judged on the merits of what it gives the character, it's Level Adjustment, and any notable roleplaying complications it might bring up (such as being a half-dragon in a campaign where the people have been terrorized by dragons and dragon-kin). Anything else is just adding extra barriers for no good reason.

[Kelb_Panthera]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Just went back over every reply of yours in this thread to be sure. No. No, you haven't. At all.

You came in with a gross misunderstanding of what the default rules consider suitable and while I -think- that's been cleared up the rest has been your unfounded opinion. Again, why are maug unsuitable for PC use, provided the game starts at level 5 or higher, other than you said so?




Yeah, that was how I interpreted the monster descriptions too for the past couple of years. Then I realized that I was wrong. A detailed explanation can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?599881).

{scrubbed} I've read that thread too. Chapter 6 of the DMG is -not- strictly optional rules anymore than chapters 4 or 7. They're guidelines on how the game is expected to be run unless you explicitly choose to alter them.

If you cross-reference the table you've mentioned with the creatures on it in their MM entries, you'll notice that it lines up perfectly with the sum of those creatures HD and LA (some of which are even noted as having been given LA for the purpose of being a cohort only).

[Afghanistan]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed} Regardless, I've looked over the statement you are probably referring to and my response is largely unchanging on not once, but two occasions.


The point is, it's not reasonable for a person to just bring a character with an acquired template to a table and expect to be able to play that character with no questions asked like they usually can with inherited templates.

It doesn't matter if they are ECL 4 or ECL 15. If they meet the minimum requirements for the template, it is from an allowed source, and their final ECL is within your required ECL I see no issue with letting them apply it regardless if it is the Lich Template, the Half Dragon Template, the Necropolitan Template, or the Phrenic Template.

I am confident most players would be amiable to write up their backstory on how they came to be a Dragonborn or a Necropolitan or any other number of inherited templates since doing so, at least according to the fluff, is a big deal and should be a major part of the character's development and or backstory. Furthermore, that stuff is all fluff and can be adjusted with cooperation from the DM and the player. It's not that much of a stretch to adjust these things, unless all of your Sorcerers are descended from Dragons or Outsiders, all of your Monks belong to monasteries, and all of your Initiators follow the teachings of the Temple of the Nine Blades. Fluff is mutable, mechanics are mutable, but through cooperation.

Simply put: Work with your players. I cannot actually imagine a template, feat, class feature, skill, or any other feature of this game or any other roleplaying game that cannot be simply explained by backstory and roleplaying true to that feature. So yes, it is all quite "reasonable", if it is unreasonable it is a result of your setting and world building and not a result of the rules mechanically disallowing such features as has been repeatedly stated here and if such is the case just say so and your player's won't show up with acquired templates.

[Katie Boundary]

Just went back over every reply of yours in this thread to be sure. No. No, you haven't. At all.

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JYou came in with a gross misunderstanding of what the default rules consider suitable

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Chapter 6 of the DMG is -not- strictly optional rules

It explicitly says that it is.


not a result of the rules mechanically disallowing such features

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[Kelb_Panthera]

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I not only read but reread. You have failed to adequately articulate where the actual game rules back up your position. Which is understandable, given that they don't.


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You plainly believe that maugs aren't playable. This isn't supported by any rules or guidelines and is explicitly contradicted in the fact that maug, unlike many PC suitable races, has an explicit segment for how to use them as such without having to go through the process, explicitly outlined elsewhere, of deriving those details from the basic stat block.


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You're mistaken. I know the rules, quite intimately. They don't support your positions here.


It explicitly says that it is.

It says that it presents a series of options along with several other things. It does not say you can or should ignore them. Some of the options presented are default assumptions while others are -explicitly- variants to the defaults. The feats in that chapter of the PHB are a series of options too. Doesn't mean they're optional.


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Curse if you want, he's not wrong.

[Katie Boundary]

I not only read but reread. You have failed to adequately articulate where the actual game rules back up your position.

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[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: This thread has run its course. It's staying closed.